Why Is Everything Closing Down?

[Jai Dee]

The only drawback is the banjo playing cretin who owns the bar, but if you,re lucky he will be off in New Zealand trying to outwit the intellectually superior trout family.

This sort of comment we can do without on the forum thanks 'phantomfiddler'.

[actiondell4]

Correct me if im wrong,is the Shamrock the corner place opposite the New Orleans reastaurant?

Quite good bar/restaurant but very small.

I imagine their rent would be in the higher catorgory.

They seem to get a lot of tourist trade.

I think places such as Shenanigans at Jomtiem rely on expats for their bread and butter money.

Never heard of Borscas or whatever the name of the irish bar is,thats closing its doors due to the 70k a month rent.

Neverless this "recession"they are having is doing a market correction on irish bars,will they recover,i doubt it,i doubt they will get the irish travellers to Pattaya as much as they use to.

Irish bars were becoming like 7/11 s on every corner.

I remember there were a lot of Aussie Bars around at one stage,they seem to have mostly folded or gone off to Phuket where they seem to be doing better with the younger tourist market.

Edited May 30, 2010 by actiondell4

[Tanaka]

I am talking about the general situation. It does not look good to me. Too many owners who should be dropping prices have refused to do so.

Some expats are convinced that the answer to everything is cheap prices. There is a very good chance that these owners can't drop prices and still pay rent and also make a living.

I take it economics was not your major? It is a question of demand and availability, among others. When your flow of customers thins out, your income does the same, ok? But you stil have the same overlay to be paid. If you are Thai you probably raise your prices to cover for your losses. Resulting in still fewer customers and less income. That is what you are saying. That they cannot lower prices because they have costs to be met, right? Well, what if the customers stay away because of the high costs? You have the same overlay, the same costs but no income. A question of time before you go bellyup.

Or, you can try lower your prices, thus giving presumtive customers incentive to come to your establishement. So, lower price and more customers, higher income. Not the Thai way but it is economy.

[smedly]

100% correct

Also after speaking with many farang business owners the rent they are paying is just rediculous and that was when things where going well, falangs now should be approaching their Thai owners and at least trying to negociate a rent reduction otherwise they will go to the wall but then the Thai owners will find another idiot to pay big dosh to step right in and take over...the cycle continues

[KarenBravo]

As for the smaller ones frequented by UK/Irish sex-tourists and sexpats, these will surely be severely affected by the collapse of the Irish/UK economies...

Actually, it's the sexpats that can be relied upon to keep coming to Thailand no matter the state of the world economy.

Same as it ever was......

[SoiGirlHunter]

What worries me is the police found 4 bomb packed ready to detonate vehicles about a week back, how many are really

floating around out there right now?

It will take just 1 and GAME OVER.

These reds are sick , this is not over by a longshot!

[elliss]

..

The people that frequent those wretched establishments (British and Irish themed pubs) are the same people that frequent them back in their home country. Most of the tourists in Thailand now are Russians and Indians -- sex tourists . where is their moral code ???

[Ulysses G.]

I am talking about the general situation. It does not look good to me. Too many owners who should be dropping prices have refused to do so.

Some expats are convinced that the answer to everything is cheap prices. There is a very good chance that these owners can't drop prices and still pay rent and also make a living.

I take it economics was not your major?

If one is paying a huge rent and charging a fair price and the number of possible customers drops by more than 50%, cutting prices is probably not going to anything but lose money faster. That is what they teach about economics at the school of hard knocks.

[JMS]

What worries me is the police found 4 bomb packed ready to detonate vehicles about a week back, how many are really

floating around out there right now?

It will take just 1 and GAME OVER.

These reds are sick bas***ds, this is not over by a longshot!

I totally agree with you just imagine them putting one in WS

[FarangBuddha]

What worries me is the police found 4 bomb packed ready to detonate vehicles about a week back, how many are really

floating around out there right now?

It will take just 1 and GAME OVER.

These reds are sick bas***ds, this is not over by a longshot!

I totally agree with you just imagine them putting one in WS

I'm sure with Howie's and Neil's crews on the lookout, we've got nothing to worry about

[sokal]

Who in their right mind would cut rent when the Russians (or whoever) are more than happy to pay the going rate? Prices go up. It's the nature of things. It's also the nature of things for those who can't keep up to be selected for extinction (or less dramatically... going out of business).

And that is a perfect example of what is wrong. Way too many condo coffins and hotel rooms are vacant........supply has far exceeded demand.

It is not natural that prices always go up (economics 101).

Take a look at the real estate market in the USA.......prices went down......for good reason.

The Russians are not filling all of the void (some, but far from all).

They are notorious for being "cheap Charlies."

It is a downward spiral followed by a crashing sound.

Thailand had its crash in 1997, this is not Florida. There will be no crash. You think that 30 to 100,000 USD are bubble prices ? What do you expect to get a condo for ?

a hundred bucks ?

In 1997 the US was the creditor nation and Thailand was the debtor nation. Now its in reverse.

[sokal]

I am talking about the general situation. It does not look good to me. Too many owners who should be dropping prices have refused to do so.

Some expats are convinced that the answer to everything is cheap prices. There is a very good chance that these owners can't drop prices and still pay rent and also make a living.

I take it economics was not your major? It is a question of demand and availability, among others. When your flow of customers thins out, your income does the same, ok? But you stil have the same overlay to be paid. If you are Thai you probably raise your prices to cover for your losses. Resulting in still fewer customers and less income. That is what you are saying. That they cannot lower prices because they have costs to be met, right? Well, what if the customers stay away because of the high costs? You have the same overlay, the same costs but no income. A question of time before you go bellyup.

Or, you can try lower your prices, thus giving presumtive customers incentive to come to your establishement. So, lower price and more customers, higher income. Not the Thai way but it is economy.

Everyone gives Thais sh*t for that line of thinking but it goes both ways. Look at the airline industry, they have been lowering prices and going bankrupt for 20 years. A year does not go by without an airline going bankrupt.

Hey airlines, ever think of raising prices ?

[Tejas]

Who in their right mind would cut rent when the Russians (or whoever) are more than happy to pay the going rate? Prices go up. It's the nature of things. It's also the nature of things for those who can't keep up to be selected for extinction (or less dramatically... going out of business).

And that is a perfect example of what is wrong. Way too many condo coffins and hotel rooms are vacant........supply has far exceeded demand.

It is not natural that prices always go up (economics 101).

Take a look at the real estate market in the USA.......prices went down......for good reason.

The Russians are not filling all of the void (some, but far from all).

They are notorious for being "cheap Charlies."

It is a downward spiral followed by a crashing sound.

Thailand had its crash in 1997, this is not Florida. There will be no crash. You think that 30 to 100,000 USD are bubble prices ? What do you expect to get a condo for ?

a hundred bucks ?

In 1997 the US was the creditor nation and Thailand was the debtor nation. Now its in reverse.

Reminds me of a pilot who is at the controls of an airplane that is about the hit the ground: "I refuse to believe we are going to crash."

Optimism is a good thing.............sometimes.

The problem is that the crash is already happening in front of our eyes.

[123ace]

Like many others I will not mourn the passing of the Irish theme pub. They got this idea that all you need is to paint everything green, stick a few crappy old bits of junk around the place and hang up a sign to Galway and people will flock to the place. But it's simple economics, the bigger the place and the more amenities it has (like a/c) the more expensive it is to set up and run. The more expensive it is the higher the prices have to be to cover the running costs and start paying back the initial investment. Even in a stable economic climate people are not, in general, going to frequent those places every day/night.

Now add in the drop in the value of the currency of your target customer base and boom goes bust.

It always puzzles me why people travel halfway round the world and end up going to a mock up of a pub/restaurant in their home country. A bit like back in the 60s and 70s when Spain was the holiday destination for Brits and many of them spent their time in British style pubs eating fish and chips and drinking Watneys Red Barrel.

Another line long overdue it's Darwinian cull is the Sports Bar (an oxymoron if there ever was one). A couple of big screen tv's and a few football and rugby shirts and that's about all but they whack the prices up.

Crikey, its called human nature. Ever seen a Thai go overseas? all they want to eat is Thai food, same for most nationalities in fact. Foreign food makes many people ill. Its not hard to understand.

For sports bars, I hate them, but there is a simple logic here and particularly in Thailand where access to intl sports events on local or UBC tv is non existent or not with english commentary. Its where real sports followers go to watch sports because it can not be found elswhere.

yes the process of evolution is alive and well with you!

[Rimmer]

What worries me is the police found 4 bomb packed ready to detonate vehicles about a week back, how many are really

floating around out there right now?

It will take just 1 and GAME OVER.

These reds are sick , this is not over by a longshot!

If I remember correctly they turned out to be 4 firecrackers wired together by teenagers down in Sattahip.

[Heng]

falangs now should be approaching their Thai owners and at least trying to negociate a rent reduction otherwise they will go to the wall but then the Thai owners will find another idiot to pay big dosh to step right in and take over...the cycle continues

Yeah, they're real idiots for paying the going rate that the current tenants can no longer afford because they have run their businesses into the ground (or started the wrong business to begin with).

[Heng]

Everyone gives Thais sh*t for that line of thinking but it goes both ways. Look at the airline industry, they have been lowering prices and going bankrupt for 20 years. A year does not go by without an airline going bankrupt.

Hey airlines, ever think of raising prices ?

And you'll find locals and foreigners along all of these lines...

Owners like Singapore Airlines with significant cash reserves (and no reason to sell up or change anything drastically no matter what the economy).

Those like any number of Delta/US Air/Northwest types... often leveraged to the bone and clinging to each forex/oil/interest rate spike or drop with tingling gonads...

And Thai Airways types with a whole basket of assorted issues.

[Tejas]

Everyone gives Thais sh*t for that line of thinking but it goes both ways. Look at the airline industry, they have been lowering prices and going bankrupt for 20 years. A year does not go by without an airline going bankrupt.

Hey airlines, ever think of raising prices ?

And you'll find locals and foreigners along all of these lines...

Owners like Singapore Airlines with significant cash reserves (and no reason to sell up or change anything drastically no matter what the economy).

Those like any number of Delta/US Air/Northwest types... often leveraged to the bone and clinging to each forex/oil/interest rate spike or drop with tingling gonads...

And Thai Airways types with a whole basket of assorted issues.

A casual look at any newspaper will reveal that airline ticket prices are way up over the past five years (especially long distance travel).

Of course, some airlines have reduced prices for various routes.

Many of those reduced prices involve short distance domestic/regional routes.

The airline industry is in a very difficult situation given the wild fluctuations in the price of energy.

They are trying to build more energy efficient planes...............and larger planes to carry more passengers at one time.

That takes a huge amount of capital.

Many airlines are also hitting passengers with crazy fees for baggage.

Still, as a general rule, when supply exceeds demand in a free market system, prices should drop, not rise.

The exception is when a monopoly controls the situation.

In Pattaya-Jomtien, supply (numbers of condos, hotels, malls, and restaurants) has far exceeded demand.

Optimistic posters think new retirees from European countries will fill the void...........I partially disagree because many (if not most) will not have the pension/retirement money to retire here.

Pensions are going away...........businesses and even countries are going bankrupt.

Having said all that, I do believe there will always be a demand for top end condos. But they are very limited in number.

And the people who buy them are often not long-stay residents.

[Chunky1]

Like many others I will not mourn the passing of the Irish theme pub. They got this idea that all you need is to paint everything green, stick a few crappy old bits of junk around the place and hang up a sign to Galway and people will flock to the place. But it's simple economics, the bigger the place and the more amenities it has (like a/c) the more expensive it is to set up and run. The more expensive it is the higher the prices have to be to cover the running costs and start paying back the initial investment. Even in a stable economic climate people are not, in general, going to frequent those places every day/night.

Now add in the drop in the value of the currency of your target customer base and boom goes bust.

It always puzzles me why people travel halfway round the world and end up going to a mock up of a pub/restaurant in their home country. A bit like back in the 60s and 70s when Spain was the holiday destination for Brits and many of them spent their time in British style pubs eating fish and chips and drinking Watneys Red Barrel.

Another line long overdue it's Darwinian cull is the Sports Bar (an oxymoron if there ever was one). A couple of big screen tv's and a few football and rugby shirts and that's about all but they whack the prices up.

Crikey, its called human nature. Ever seen a Thai go overseas? all they want to eat is Thai food, same for most nationalities in fact. Foreign food makes many people ill. Its not hard to understand.

For sports bars, I hate them, but there is a simple logic here and particularly in Thailand where access to intl sports events on local or UBC tv is non existent or not with english commentary. Its where real sports followers go to watch sports because it can not be found elswhere.

yes the process of evolution is alive and well with you!

I think it is only the LoSo Thais who can only eat Thai food, fwiw.

[Heng]

A casual look at any newspaper will reveal that airline ticket prices are way up over the past five years (especially long distance travel).

Of course, some airlines have reduced prices for various routes.

Many of those reduced prices involve short distance domestic/regional routes.

The airline industry is in a very difficult situation given the wild fluctuations in the price of energy.

They are trying to build more energy efficient planes...............and larger planes to carry more passengers at one time.

That takes a huge amount of capital.

Many airlines are also hitting passengers with crazy fees for baggage.

Still, as a general rule, when supply exceeds demand in a free market system, prices should drop, not rise.

The exception is when a monopoly controls the situation.

In Pattaya-Jomtien, supply (numbers of condos, hotels, malls, and restaurants) has far exceeded demand.

Optimistic posters think new retirees from European countries will fill the void...........I partially disagree because many (if not most) will not have the pension/retirement money to retire here.

Pensions are going away...........businesses and even countries are going bankrupt.

Having said all that, I do believe there will always be a demand for top end condos. But they are very limited in number.

And the people who buy them are often not long-stay residents.

Yeah, I'm drawing a parallel between those particular airlines and types of owners in local real estate, not actually discussing the specifics of the airline industry (apart from the relative financial solvency of the airlines mentioned).

Some folks will be more than ready to lower prices if they have downward financial pressure to do so. The fact that it is less common here is more often than not (IME), some owners simply aren't affected/moved enough by the lack of business to do so. In some markets, we can readily expect crashes because nearly the entire market is leveraged. In markets where there are so many 100% equity properties, people are often less inclined to lower prices and to sell, although I'm usually thinking about land when I see this happen, not condos (which I don't really consider "real estate" anyway), although the outcome is likely the same as with any other commodity that is wholly owned.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Heng

[sokal]

Who in their right mind would cut rent when the Russians (or whoever) are more than happy to pay the going rate? Prices go up. It's the nature of things. It's also the nature of things for those who can't keep up to be selected for extinction (or less dramatically... going out of business).

And that is a perfect example of what is wrong. Way too many condo coffins and hotel rooms are vacant........supply has far exceeded demand.

It is not natural that prices always go up (economics 101).

Take a look at the real estate market in the USA.......prices went down......for good reason.

The Russians are not filling all of the void (some, but far from all).

They are notorious for being "cheap Charlies."

It is a downward spiral followed by a crashing sound.

Thailand had its crash in 1997, this is not Florida. There will be no crash. You think that 30 to 100,000 USD are bubble prices ? What do you expect to get a condo for ?

a hundred bucks ?

In 1997 the US was the creditor nation and Thailand was the debtor nation. Now its in reverse.

Reminds me of a pilot who is at the controls of an airplane that is about the hit the ground: "I refuse to believe we are going to crash."

Optimism is a good thing.............sometimes.

The problem is that the crash is already happening in front of our eyes.

Thailand's foreign exchange reserves speak for themselves. Its grade 8 math.

[sokal]

Everyone gives Thais sh*t for that line of thinking but it goes both ways. Look at the airline industry, they have been lowering prices and going bankrupt for 20 years. A year does not go by without an airline going bankrupt.

Hey airlines, ever think of raising prices ?

And you'll find locals and foreigners along all of these lines...

Owners like Singapore Airlines with significant cash reserves (and no reason to sell up or change anything drastically no matter what the economy).

Those like any number of Delta/US Air/Northwest types... often leveraged to the bone and clinging to each forex/oil/interest rate spike or drop with tingling gonads...

And Thai Airways types with a whole basket of assorted issues.

A casual look at any newspaper will reveal that airline ticket prices are way up over the past five years (especially long distance travel).

Of course, some airlines have reduced prices for various routes.

Many of those reduced prices involve short distance domestic/regional routes.

The airline industry is in a very difficult situation given the wild fluctuations in the price of energy.

They are trying to build more energy efficient planes...............and larger planes to carry more passengers at one time.

That takes a huge amount of capital.

Many airlines are also hitting passengers with crazy fees for baggage.

Still, as a general rule, when supply exceeds demand in a free market system, prices should drop, not rise.

The exception is when a monopoly controls the situation.

In Pattaya-Jomtien, supply (numbers of condos, hotels, malls, and restaurants) has far exceeded demand.

Optimistic posters think new retirees from European countries will fill the void...........I partially disagree because many (if not most) will not have the pension/retirement money to retire here.

Pensions are going away...........businesses and even countries are going bankrupt.

Having said all that, I do believe there will always be a demand for top end condos. But they are very limited in number.

And the people who buy them are often not long-stay residents.

Evidently air fair is not up enough. Japan Airlines went broke this year.

I don't disagree with you that the whole world is going to sh*t financially. I am bearish too.

The fact is that SE Asian economies are now the creditor nations and the western world is the debtor nations. As these SE Asian currencies rise, so does the living standard of their people. Anyone that knew anything about macro economics knew that the protests where not going to have major effects on the BHT or the SET and they didn't even as the stock exchange building itself, burned.

[Spalpeen]

Try the idea on that a lot of these "Irish" establishments were financed from the Irish bubble. Long gone now and all the hot dosh with it so soft vanity businesses go belly up.

A reasonable theory but the reality is that almost all of the "Irish" bars are both owned and patronised by Brits and Aussies. They are what they are, and I don't want to knock them but it takes more than a few generic bits of Irish decoration to make an Irish pub. When I go home to potato land and walk into the local, having been away for more than a year, I know that the barman will say "Ach it's yourself. How's things out in Bangkok?" and have a pint on the way before I've sat down. It's the people that make a pub, not the wallpaper.

[123ace]

Try the idea on that a lot of these "Irish" establishments were financed from the Irish bubble. Long gone now and all the hot dosh with it so soft vanity businesses go belly up.

A reasonable theory but the reality is that almost all of the "Irish" bars are both owned and patronised by Brits and Aussies. They are what they are, and I don't want to knock them but it takes more than a few generic bits of Irish decoration to make an Irish pub. When I go home to potato land and walk into the local, having been away for more than a year, I know that the barman will say "Ach it's yourself. How's things out in Bangkok?" and have a pint on the way before I've sat down. It's the people that make a pub, not the wallpaper.

True, its like assuming McDonalds is Scottish or Starbucks is from the Battle Star Gallactica universe... ANyone with half a ounce of knowledge would know that most of these F&B outlets are franchised anyway.

I like the Brit & Irish pubs as they are a relief from the pikey go - go's (a necessary evil), they have TV with satellite and after 20 years I am somewhat bored of the local fare. I appreciate that a newbie would be suprised though, as might a native Indian arriving in Bradford.

[TheWalkingMan]

A reasonable theory but the reality is that almost all of the "Irish" bars are both owned and patronised by Brits and Aussies. They are what they are, and I don't want to knock them but it takes more than a few generic bits of Irish decoration to make an Irish pub. When I go home to potato land and walk into the local, having been away for more than a year, I know that the barman will say "Ach it's yourself. How's things out in Bangkok?" and have a pint on the way before I've sat down. It's the people that make a pub, not the wallpaper.

This post describes what seems to be missing in the Irish Bars around Pattaya. Maybe it is a lack of staff with English ability or management not knowing how to build a strong stream of ex-pats living in the area. Having smart chatty staff, who have been trained in how to talk and listen can do wonders to the bottom line.

TheWalkingMan

[moo9]

Crikey, its called human nature. Ever seen a Thai go overseas? all they want to eat is Thai food, same for most nationalities in fact. Foreign food makes many people ill. Its not hard to understand.

You apparently know only one side of the "Thai people". The Thais who can afford it love to visit Europe and certainly enjoy the food.

And I might be an exception, because I like to eat foreign food, so I am not sticked to mom's cuisine.

Cheers

[123ace]

Crikey, its called human nature. Ever seen a Thai go overseas? all they want to eat is Thai food, same for most nationalities in fact. Foreign food makes many people ill. Its not hard to understand.

You apparently know only one side of the "Thai people". The Thais who can afford it love to visit Europe and certainly enjoy the food.

And I might be an exception, because I like to eat foreign food, so I am not sticked to mom's cuisine.

Cheers

Maybe, but my work takes me overseas with a team of Thai's several times per year. Unless its China where they seem to revel in chinese stuff I can't eat, they have a hunger for Thai food akin to a vampire needing a blood fix!

For me - I seem to have mexican thing going half the time these days...

[BobbyMoore]

Having smart chatty staff, who have been trained in how to talk and listen can do wonders to the bottom line.

TheWalkingMan

It is a necessity in any bricks and mortar business, many business's run in Pattaya seem to be run by either dimwits or people who don't give a toss. If I frequent an establishment many times I expect a little welcome and chat from the boss, not much, just a reassurance that my money spent is APPRECIATED, I also expect a THANK YOU either in English or Thai once I pay my bin, again, manners lacking in many many places in and around Pattaya.

I don't blame the Thai staff who work in Farang places it's not their fault most of them don't know any better it's the Farangs that own the place that don't teach the staff what good customer service is all about, it's the number 1 priority to me...."Service with a Smile"

[actiondell4]

Well,the posts about customer service and friendship/personal service in Irish bars are interesting.

Whilst I have never been there,(murphys) i saw constantly on pattaya television this irish bar which advertised that "where no one is a stranger" or similar lines,so i suppose those enterpreuners who decide to start a irish bar,paint it green etc and then fill it with bored non english speaking ending up failing to the owner op bars such as this one.

However i wonder how those big irish pubs/bars ,one at Jomtiem,can still make a profit since theres nothing really irish atomsphere in them,only thai staff.

Well ,most of them are closing which weeds out the bad ones so maybe not a bad thing.

Trouble is one does it during the good times then everyone wants to copy.

Recently I went to the end of Jomtiem beach up near immigration where i saw a lot of new outdoor bars,all for lease,any takers?

Edited June 1, 2010 by actiondell4

[mamanoodle]

Never goin home, no one's a stranger bar, no air con, charged 115baht for a bottle of singha light, which was 15 baht MORE than the fancy French restaurant we'd had dinner at earlier!! Go figure why some are going out of business!!!!