Thai PM Abhisit Under Fire Over Deadly Crackdown

[jayboy]

From the WSJ 31.5.2010

The Death of Tolerance in Thailand

The government is ignoring the most hopeful lessons of modern Thai history and destroying what's best about the country.

By MICHAEL MONTESANO

Six months ago, I listened to Suthachai Yimprasoet, a professor of history at Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University, present a learned paper on the 1902 integration of the Malay sultanate of Patani into the kingdom of Siam, as Thailand was then known, in a magnificent lecture hall on that university's campus. Last week, Prof. Suthachai was detained on an army base in Saraburi Province, 100 kilometers northeast of the Thai capital.

The government led by Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban has yet to reveal what makes the historian such a threat to the country. Mr. Suthachai was not one of the leaders of the "red shirt" occupation of central Bangkok, which the government ended by force of arms on May 19. Since his detention five days later, no formal charges have been filed.

Three days after Mr. Suthachai's detention, he began a hunger strike to protest his jailers' refusing him access to newspapers and to materials to prepare his lectures. Those jailers soon allowed him access to his books. But not before the spokesman for the Abhisit government's Center for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation, Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd, defended the government's right to detain Mr. Suthachai under the Emergency Decree of 2005. Appearing to give the professor advice on dieting, Col. Sansern dismissively suggested that if he did not want to eat food, he could eat some jelly instead.

The Abhisit government says it wants reconciliation. But Mr. Suthachai's detention, along with aggressive measures to censor the Internet and other media, suggest that it has embarked on a post-crackdown course likely to deepen Thailand's ugly divisions. The government has used its emergency powers to freeze the bank accounts of more than 100 individuals believed either to have helped fund the Bangkok protests, or to be associated with former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, or to back the opposition Phuea Thai Party.

In northern and northeastern Thailand, the security forces have begun a program of surveillance of ordinary citizens. As a small businessman in the north remarked to me last week, the CRES's announcements—along with incessant radio and television broadcasts featuring the song "May Happiness Return"—have made provincial Thais' fear of their government palpable.

Messrs. Abhisit, Suthep and their backers are choosing to ignore the most hopeful lessons of modern Thai political history. Instead they have embarked on a path to destroy what is best about their country.

On Oct. 6, 1976, Thailand suffered a brutal coup against its Democrat Party-led government. Soldiers, police and right-wing vigilantes attacked Bangkok's Thammasat University. They killed tens of student protestors, detained many others and drove still others into the jungle to join the armed insurgency of the "terrorists" of the Communist Party of Thailand. Thailand entered a very bleak period. Bloodthirsty reactionaries charged that leading liberal members of the Democrat Party like Damrong Latthaphipahat and veteran journalist Surin Matsadit and future Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai of the party's formidable southern wing were communist enemies of the nation. The country found itself with a premier, Judge Thanin Kraiwichian, so right wing that the Thai army staged a coup to oust him in 1977.

That coup did little to address the real communist threat that challenged Bangkok's control over sections of northern, northeastern and southern Thailand. Instead, and along with divisions between pro-China and pro-Vietnam factions of the Communist Party, it was a program of reconciliation and amnesty spear-headed by General Prem Tinasulanon that largely defeated that insurgency by the early 1980s. At an institutional level the Thai army remains extremely proud of Gen. Prem's conciliatory approach to counter-insurgency. Now chairman of the king's Privy Council and a leading object of red-shirt enmity, Gen. Prem served as Thailand's prime minister from 1980-88, years that brought the slow consolidation of parliamentary democracy.

The Prem years brought another form of progress along Thailand's path from division and crisis. Following their release from jail or emergence from the jungle, many of the most talented student leaders of the 1970s refused to succumb to bitterness over the murders of their friends and the defeat of the Communist Party. Instead, they trooped overseas to earn graduate degrees in the finest universities of the United States, Australia, Japan and Europe. They returned to Thailand's universities to help give their country the most dynamic intellectual life of any country in Southeast Asia. As contributors of columns to Thailand's lively free press, they shared their insights and perspectives with a wide readership. Mr. Suthachai was a member of this group. Having fought for the Communist Party in the hills of southern Thailand's Suratthani Province, he earned a doctorate at Britain's University of Bristol.

Talent and academic freedom have made Thailand's best universities sites for rigorous examination of the country's past and present, its society, economy, and history. Their scholars' ideas and writings have given the country some much needed historical and cultural ballast in the midst of dizzying economic and social change, though recent years have seen those scholars no less divided between "yellow shirts" and "red shirts" than any other group.

In accusing Mr. Thaksin and the red-shirt leadership of supporting terrorism, the Abhisit government may seek to conjure up in foreign minds images of the bombers of London's public transport or Jakarta's hotels. Within Thailand, however, to label an adversary a "terrorist" is to adopt the divisive approach to political conflict that Gen. Prem repudiated 30 years ago. It is to indulge in the demagoguery that traumatized the southern wing of the Democrat Party out of which Deputy Prime Minister Suthep himself emerged. It is to cast aside a legacy of earlier success in facing down a threat to the Thai nation that in its day seemed no less grave than today's.

Thailand has entered an era of mass politics. For all their liberal pretensions, Messrs. Abhisit, Suthep and their fellow Democrat hardliner Chuan lack the comfort of their nemesis Mr. Thaksin with such politics. They also lack a compelling vision of Thailand's past, present or future. In this regard they are joined by an alarming number of their countrymen, on both sides of the great national divide, in an era of more common "international" education and easier access to the "global" media. This lack of perspective, of historical ballast, is what makes Thailand's current crisis so frightening.

Mr. Montesano is a visiting research fellow at the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore.

Edited June 3, 2010 by jayboy

[jdinasia]

Interesting opinion piece (that is what it is) --- and cites nothing to back some claims made in it --- (like bank accounts frozen had no connection other than being supporters of PTP (and not to funding an illegal insurrectionist rally in BKK) ---

but still interesting

Here is the link since jayboy for some unkown reason failed to provide it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...2807468660.html

in reference to jayboys other question ---

15) Not to use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of any Thai court of law.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

the CRES's announcements—along with incessant radio and television broadcasts featuring the song "May Happiness Return"—have made provincial Thais' fear of their government palpable.

<snip>

So that's what those videos are all about. I thought as much. I really like the old guy with half a set of teeth in his lower jaw (that fit into the gap in his upper jaw) and half a set of teeth in his upper jaw (that fit into the gap in his lower jaw) talking about how wonderful it is now that he can grow all sorts of trees and vegetables and has lots to eat thanks to the free fertiliser... or words to that effect.

Must make those Bangkok elites feel so proud that they give so much to the rural poor.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

in reference to jayboys other question ---

15) Not to use

<snip>

Thanks so much for pointing that out. I'm sure you weren't doing it, again, to get anyone into trouble.

[jayboy]

in reference to jayboys other question ---

15) Not to use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of any Thai court of law.

Well that clarifies that you were just following your usual provocative practice.Is this somehow satisfying for you or do just feel uncomfortable with awkward facts?

In case you hadn't noticed my remarks -because I was deliberately careful - didn't infringe any TV rule.

Edited June 3, 2010 by LivinginKata
Remark removed - LivinginKata

[jdinasia]

in reference to jayboys other question ---

15) Not to use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of any Thai court of law.

Well that clarifies that you were just following your usual provocative practice.Is this somehow satisfying for you or do just feel uncomfortable with awkward facts?

In case you hadn't noticed my remarks -because I was deliberately careful - didn't infringe any TV rule.

A matter of opinion --- imho it would be comtempt of court (apparently ALL courts in Thailand). Saying that the courts are "directed" isn't (again IMHO) appropriate OR legal in Thailand. Unless of course you mean that they are "directed" by the law

You asked ... I answered.

[ozzieman05]

Less than 100 killed. What so deadly about this crackdown.

There are more than 60 millions Thais and a few more million Farang.

Those killed is not even the majority.

In fact less than 0.01%

Amazingly, a hundred lives lost asking for an elction means nothing to you, lady.

100 lives lost

My god

You must be Thasking No. 1 BullsxxT spokesman

[ozzieman05]

UN calls for Thai clashes inquiry

The UN has demanded an independent inquiry into recent unrest in Thailand, when more than 80 people were killed in clashes between security forces and protesters.

Continued here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10199051.stm

The question is, is it possible to have an independent inquiry in Thailand?

Not demanded:

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has called for an independent investigation of Thailand's bloody political crisis to bring those responsible for the human rights violations to account.

Subtle difference

The only difference is that monkfish is correct and you aren't.

The BBC story says "demanded", not "called for".

So what's the subtle difference?

The UN is now to involved with Isreal

Thailand is only small time Not really worth worrying about

[jayboy]

A matter of opinion --- imho it would be comtempt of court (apparently ALL courts in Thailand). Saying that the courts are "directed" isn't (again IMHO) appropriate OR legal in Thailand.

It may be a matter of opinion though I think otherwise.

In the greater scheme of things the much more important issue is - Is it true? And to that question any serious student of Thailand's history and politics would provide the same unequivocal answer.

[sirchai]

The PM bent over backwards to avoid violence, but the protesters refused to cooperate.

Newsflash: Killing 80+ people isn't exactly "bending over backwards to avoid violence".

Guess he didn't kill them. How many got killed through 'friendly fire"???? After all, the violence had stopped. The sad thing is that it will start again.

[JetsetBkk]

The UN is now to involved with Isreal

Thailand is only small time Not really worth worrying about

Yes, unfortunately. And I remember the plane crash that wiped out a lot of Poland's government on 10th April occurred at the same time as some unpleasant events were happening in Bangkok (e.g. protesters being shot in the head).

So the Bangkok news that would have otherwise hit the headlines became a small second item on most news broadcasters schedule.

Here's a first hand account written on 11th April in case you've forgotten what was happening at that time.

[jdinasia]

I read through some of the red blogger's texts and found almost no mentions of Thaksin etc ......

Biased? certainly.

Firsthand account? not really.

Mention of the events of the day? None.

[lannarebirth]

From the WSJ 31.5.2010

The Death of Tolerance in Thailand

The government is ignoring the most hopeful lessons of modern Thai history and destroying what's best about the country.

By MICHAEL MONTESANO

Six months ago, I listened to Suthachai Yimprasoet, a professor of history at Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University, present a learned paper on the 1902 integration of the Malay sultanate of Patani into the kingdom of Siam, as Thailand was then known, in a magnificent lecture hall on that university's campus. Last week, Prof. Suthachai was detained on an army base in Saraburi Province, 100 kilometers northeast of the Thai capital.

The government led by Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban has yet to reveal what makes the historian such a threat to the country. Mr. Suthachai was not one of the leaders of the "red shirt" occupation of central Bangkok, which the government ended by force of arms on May 19. Since his detention five days later, no formal charges have been filed.

Three days after Mr. Suthachai's detention, he began a hunger strike to protest his jailers' refusing him access to newspapers and to materials to prepare his lectures. Those jailers soon allowed him access to his books. But not before the spokesman for the Abhisit government's Center for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation, Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd, defended the government's right to detain Mr. Suthachai under the Emergency Decree of 2005. Appearing to give the professor advice on dieting, Col. Sansern dismissively suggested that if he did not want to eat food, he could eat some jelly instead.

The Abhisit government says it wants reconciliation. But Mr. Suthachai's detention, along with aggressive measures to censor the Internet and other media, suggest that it has embarked on a post-crackdown course likely to deepen Thailand's ugly divisions. The government has used its emergency powers to freeze the bank accounts of more than 100 individuals believed either to have helped fund the Bangkok protests, or to be associated with former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, or to back the opposition Phuea Thai Party.

In northern and northeastern Thailand, the security forces have begun a program of surveillance of ordinary citizens. As a small businessman in the north remarked to me last week, the CRES's announcements—along with incessant radio and television broadcasts featuring the song "May Happiness Return"—have made provincial Thais' fear of their government palpable.

Messrs. Abhisit, Suthep and their backers are choosing to ignore the most hopeful lessons of modern Thai political history. Instead they have embarked on a path to destroy what is best about their country.

On Oct. 6, 1976, Thailand suffered a brutal coup against its Democrat Party-led government. Soldiers, police and right-wing vigilantes attacked Bangkok's Thammasat University. They killed tens of student protestors, detained many others and drove still others into the jungle to join the armed insurgency of the "terrorists" of the Communist Party of Thailand. Thailand entered a very bleak period. Bloodthirsty reactionaries charged that leading liberal members of the Democrat Party like Damrong Latthaphipahat and veteran journalist Surin Matsadit and future Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai of the party's formidable southern wing were communist enemies of the nation. The country found itself with a premier, Judge Thanin Kraiwichian, so right wing that the Thai army staged a coup to oust him in 1977.

That coup did little to address the real communist threat that challenged Bangkok's control over sections of northern, northeastern and southern Thailand. Instead, and along with divisions between pro-China and pro-Vietnam factions of the Communist Party, it was a program of reconciliation and amnesty spear-headed by General Prem Tinasulanon that largely defeated that insurgency by the early 1980s. At an institutional level the Thai army remains extremely proud of Gen. Prem's conciliatory approach to counter-insurgency. Now chairman of the king's Privy Council and a leading object of red-shirt enmity, Gen. Prem served as Thailand's prime minister from 1980-88, years that brought the slow consolidation of parliamentary democracy.

The Prem years brought another form of progress along Thailand's path from division and crisis. Following their release from jail or emergence from the jungle, many of the most talented student leaders of the 1970s refused to succumb to bitterness over the murders of their friends and the defeat of the Communist Party. Instead, they trooped overseas to earn graduate degrees in the finest universities of the United States, Australia, Japan and Europe. They returned to Thailand's universities to help give their country the most dynamic intellectual life of any country in Southeast Asia. As contributors of columns to Thailand's lively free press, they shared their insights and perspectives with a wide readership. Mr. Suthachai was a member of this group. Having fought for the Communist Party in the hills of southern Thailand's Suratthani Province, he earned a doctorate at Britain's University of Bristol.

Talent and academic freedom have made Thailand's best universities sites for rigorous examination of the country's past and present, its society, economy, and history. Their scholars' ideas and writings have given the country some much needed historical and cultural ballast in the midst of dizzying economic and social change, though recent years have seen those scholars no less divided between "yellow shirts" and "red shirts" than any other group.

In accusing Mr. Thaksin and the red-shirt leadership of supporting terrorism, the Abhisit government may seek to conjure up in foreign minds images of the bombers of London's public transport or Jakarta's hotels. Within Thailand, however, to label an adversary a "terrorist" is to adopt the divisive approach to political conflict that Gen. Prem repudiated 30 years ago. It is to indulge in the demagoguery that traumatized the southern wing of the Democrat Party out of which Deputy Prime Minister Suthep himself emerged. It is to cast aside a legacy of earlier success in facing down a threat to the Thai nation that in its day seemed no less grave than today's.

Thailand has entered an era of mass politics. For all their liberal pretensions, Messrs. Abhisit, Suthep and their fellow Democrat hardliner Chuan lack the comfort of their nemesis Mr. Thaksin with such politics. They also lack a compelling vision of Thailand's past, present or future. In this regard they are joined by an alarming number of their countrymen, on both sides of the great national divide, in an era of more common "international" education and easier access to the "global" media. This lack of perspective, of historical ballast, is what makes Thailand's current crisis so frightening.

Mr. Montesano is a visiting research fellow at the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore.

This paid for, think tank, agenda driven piece has absolutely zero to do with what has just transpired in Thailand. It fails to mention that this was a paid for "show" to push the agenda of one man. It elevates Thaksin to a "legitimate" place, which is laughable. Where were the students this time I wonder? It's bullshit!

Edited June 3, 2010 by lannarebirth

[jayboy]

[quote name='lannarebirth' date='2010-06-03 09:29:45' post='3663654'

This paid for, think tank, agenda driven piece has absolutely zero to do with what has just transpired in Thailand. It fails to mention that this was a paid for "show" to push the agenda of one man. It elevates Thaksin to a "legitimate" place, which is laughable. Where were the students this time I wonder? It's bullshit!

With all due respect from what you say here and the way that you say it, don't bother to become engaged in a discussion where the point is to introduce some historical context and perspective, and hopefully understanding.If you want a empty headed rant about Thaksin there are plenty of people in the "expatriate community" who will indulge you.

[jdinasia]

With all due respect from what you say here and the way that you say it, don't bother to become engaged in a discussion where the point is to introduce some historical context and perspective, and hopefully understanding.If you want a empty headed rant about Thaksin there are plenty of people in the "expatriate community" who will indulge you.

If you leave out the major players and suggest only one side of an argument then it isn't actually introducing ANY history since history must have context and context requires seeing a picture from more than some red slanted angle (just like it requires seeing things from more than yellow slanted angle!)

If you want to talk about politics and suggest it is lBKK that is the issue but fail to talk about regional power-brokers like Newin/Suthep/Barnharn/SaNoh etc etc etc then you missed the entire picture

[lannarebirth]

This paid for, think tank, agenda driven piece has absolutely zero to do with what has just transpired in Thailand. It fails to mention that this was a paid for "show" to push the agenda of one man. It elevates Thaksin to a "legitimate" place, which is laughable. Where were the students this time I wonder? It's bullshit!

With all due respect from what you say here and the way that you say it, don't bother to become engaged in a discussion where the point is to introduce some historical context and perspective, and hopefully understanding.If you want a empty headed rant about Thaksin there are plenty of people in the "expatriate community" who will indulge you.

This piece seeks to introduce "historical context" where none exists. The introduction of historical context is merely an attempt to legitimize the actions by tieing it to "similar actions that have gone before" and the consequences and reactions born of those actions. But that's bullshit. Spin. Manipulation of the reader. This was a "production" like what you get Hollywood to produce. There is nothing legitimate about it. It's a made for media event, which gets a thumbs down for its hackneyed and contrived plot and its rated X for it's obscene hatred and gratuitous violence. Though I tend to disagree with most of what you have to say i had genuinely thought that you were earnest in your beliefs. Your defense of this schlock has me reconsidering that opinion.

Yeah, Thaksin had a comfort with "mass politics". "The voting districts who vote for my party will get preferential treatment for government money".

Edited June 3, 2010 by lannarebirth

[ballpoint]

It's easy to see how he and his ilk are such big Thaksin supporters. In their opinion, the more money you have the more respect should be paid to you and the more worthy your view point. And they have the gall to call those against Thaksin "elitist".

Oh I see, the wealthy are those supporting Thaksin and the poor are the ones who go for coups, juntas,dodgy constitutions and "directed" courts.Thanks for making that clear because in my naivety I had thought it the other way round.

Actually ballpoint, I've read enough of jayboy's posts and debated with him often enough to know that despite, at times, outside appearances to the contrary, he is not a Thaksin supporter - he is too critical of him for that - red sympathiser with no great affection for Thaksin would be a better description - although a bit of a mouthful. He is quite unique i believe. Most of the red sympathisers will tell you that they have no great affection for Thaksin, and then procede to defend and excuse him at every turn. Not so jayboy.

Sadly however, all too often his intelligent and well-reasoned opinion (a trait that is indeed hard to come by from his quarter) is drowned out by the pompous, condescending and arrogant manner in which he delivers it. Pity.

Maybe I was too hasty in putting him in with the Thaksin supporters, but that doesn't change my opinion of him or his post. Especially given the reply. Why should the rich, in general, be supporters of Thaksin? They have been brought up the same way as every Thai child - if you're poor then your opinion counts for nothing and you had better respect the rich; if you're rich you can buy your way out of anything you may do to the poor, that is, when you even deign to notice them. Jayboy's post is an excellent example of this thinking. Don't earn enough money? Not a member of the right club? Keep your mouth shut then, your opinion is of no use to anyone. I would argue with his premise, both on principle - as every mans opinion is of equal value (I'm being idealistic I know) - and as a matter of fact. I think he'd be surprised to know the background of many TV members, not that it matters one bit.

Thaksin is rich, he gave handouts to the poor without actually doing anything that would last. They respect him for being rich, they like him for the handouts, (more generalistion, I know, as many saw through him from the start, and many are finally seeing the truth, but that still leaves many who continue to like him), but he didn't improve their education, he didn't change the crop buying schemes (the rice, sugar and cassava barons), he didn't bring any fresh faces into parliament from the poorer electorates (he simply bought the old ones who were both directly and indirectly responsible for keeping the poor in their place), he didn't do anything of any real substance. The 30 baht health insurance was a poorly worked out scheme, that has been streamlined by the current government; OTOP is not exactly a major export earner for the country or its grass root members; the war on drugs slowed down sales for a while, but had no lasting effect on the trade - not that it was ever designed to, it simply being another show for the uneducated, no big players were targetted or shut down; Suwannaphum airport required major repairs to even function properly, despite his suing anyone who said so, and most of the corruption allegations have never been investigated; some people took his handouts and started profitable businesses, but many more are at best no better or worse off because of them, and at worse are deeply in debt to loan sharks and/or village headmen (who are one and the same in many cases). Take the scales of justice. Put his positives on one side, his negatives on the other (and we haven't even looked at his personal crimes; the nepotism, the corruption, the killings, the lies, the abuse of so much trust, a man who had it in him to do so much for the country but pissed it away in a show of arrogance, meglamania and power crazed abuse, the likes of which will hopefully never be seen again), the scales will be firmly tilted to the negative side.

All this is getting further and further away from the thread title, which is itself getting further and further away from reality. Abhisit was questioned in the house. A vote was taken. He continues to have the support of the majority of the democratically elected MPs. He continues to be the true, legal, elected PM of the country. Nothing that Thaksin did or didn't do in the past, nothing that he is or isn't currently saying, no matter what legal lap lizards he does or doesn't buy/rent/bribe/blackmail, no matter what the TV red washers do or don't post, no matter the income/club membership/snubbiness of nose/blackness of skin of any poster, or his/her spouse/partner changes that fact.

[ozzieman05]

We are now seeing arguments over photos taken at the temple site with pictures of soldiers on the train tracks\

Red shirts say it was on the same day

Army say must have been after the event

every time you take a photo with a digital camera it leave stat's embedded into the photo

Why then can they not take the origional photo and take a look at this info, if the photo has been tampered with then this info will not be included

As long as it is the origional even if you change the date, it only overides the old, and the origional data is still there

Iphoto with a little knowledge can show all this info

Then we will know for sure who is not telling the truth

Or mabe the whole thing is a con and the origional has been lost

I cal the convenient

[rixalex]

Jayboy's post is an excellent example of this thinking. Don't earn enough money? Not a member of the right club? Keep your mouth shut then, your opinion is of no use to anyone. I would argue with his premise, both on principle - as every mans opinion is of equal value (I'm being idealistic I know) - and as a matter of fact. I think he'd be surprised to know the background of many TV members, not that it matters one bit.

Quite so.

It baffles me how jayboy is in one breath ridiculing the PAD / yellows / establishment for their disdain and disinterest in the opinion of the poor working classes, as he perceives it, and in the next breath he is ridiculing the opinion of any foreign person whom he perceives as being from what he clearly considers unworthy groups.

For one, he has no right to assume the background of people he has never met, and for two, he is in no position to lecture anyone about arrogantly ignoring and dismissing the thoughts and opinions of the lower Thai working classes when he himself arrogantly ignores and dismisses the thoughts and opinions of Western people whom he considers below him.

[slapout]

It's easy to see how he and his ilk are such big Thaksin supporters. In their opinion, the more money you have the more respect should be paid to you and the more worthy your view point. And they have the gall to call those against Thaksin "elitist".

Oh I see, the wealthy are those supporting Thaksin and the poor are the ones who go for coups, juntas,dodgy constitutions and "directed" courts.Thanks for making that clear because in my naivety I had thought it the other way round.

Anyone who would review a mans net/gross worth and then make a personal determination as to their affiliation as to political, religious, social, etc groups as well as his contribution to mankind, needs to take a step back and look at them selves. I watched a bag/recycle man the other day rush to give aid to an individual who fell on the footpath and then offered to pay for the tuk tuk he summoned to take the individual home. Whatever persuasion the man is, I am afraid most of us would be wrong in our initial judgment.

[nikkoid66]

The PM bent over backwards to avoid violence, but the protesters refused to cooperate.

Newsflash: Killing 80+ people isn't exactly "bending over backwards to avoid violence".

+20 of them were from the Army. It is a pretty high number!

[Publicus]

Be assured that while we do not have the vote - nor should we - TVF is read by Reds and Yellows alike, by the Thai media and most significantly of all, by both the government and the Reds. They closely follow that which we farang have to say in the here and now. like it or not.

If you seriously believe this one you are comically deceived.Thai Visa represents the legion of retirees, tourists,teachers, remittance men, and sexpats (present and past).I doubt whether most regular farang businessmen or professionals - ie those with visas and work permits - are even aware of its existence.The name of the forum tells you its audience as do the advertisers.

Which one of those groups do you fit into that you seem to be denigrating? Does me having a visa and WP make me better than others?

I'm a retired sexpat, squire.

Your status? Dunno.Many bottom feeders including low paid foreign teachers for example - not all - have WPs/correct visas.However it's not a question of being better or worse, and certainly not denigrating.It's just facing facts.

When the Thai Government wants a foreigner view it talks to key Embassies and the Chambers of Commerce.

There is however an international set in Bangkok.Typical indicators would be membership of the Bangkok Club and/or Royal Bangkok Sports Club and possibly British Club (if prepared to slum it), children at top international schools, monthly salary of at least Bt 400,000, here on 3 to 5 contract not because of having fallen in love with some snub nosed bargirl (or barboy) on holiday.There are also a few - a very few - successful entrepreneurs.They would not be clients of one of this forum's main sponsors!

Very few would have even heard of Thai Visa.

You're a retired sexpat? Well I and many others can assure you it's better to be an active retired sexpat than simply a retired one.    At the retired stage of life especially you need either to use it or lose it.  

The battle between the government and the Reds to win public opinion among the advanced democratic governments and Thai/East Asia scholars of the West is vital and essential to each of the local antagonists. The battle not only includes affecting the governments and opinions leaders of the advanced democracies of N America, Europe, Australia, NZ, (Japan, S Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and others in East Asia as well), it is central to winning the high global ground in the struggle the country is experiencing because the conflicts here bring on the focused attention of the UN, Amnesty International, Transparency International and a number of other credible, respected, prestigious global public service/conscience  groups. This includes discussion boards.

Our respective embassy sends its informed insider reports to our governments, but the locals in their government and in opposition want to know what we on the ground think, why we think as we do, our individual and personal views and rationales in support of our collective if divergent views etc etc because it helps the locals to know our belief and value systems, which both sides need to understand and comprehend, and to view our specific arguments to include TVF polls which help to gauge farang opinion in the country and thus how each side can appeal to farang globally (and how not to).

More significantly, there has been a regular influx of Red posters here who are full of passion and high sounding rhetoric, especially in trying (hopelessly) to represent the authoritarian tyrant Thaksin as a democrat  , going to great lengths to recite lock, stock and barrel the absurd and ludicrous Red/Thaksin line - are such posters at TV to convince me of their (ratty) designs and purposes or are they here to influence others? Which others? 

Thaksin has purchased and pursued an extensive global PR campaign to include posters from such distant places/ratholes as Montenegro intruding on Thailand via ThaiVisa at this newsclippings function. Yes, farang who have a Thai spouse and mixed families in the former LOS and have careers in the country are talking to ourselves, but we are not simply talking to ourselves, we're people vested in the country and thus have opinions and personal insights and experiences that are of value to other farang and, indeed, to other East Asians in their considerations of the present vicissitudes of the country. This quest of farang insider knowledge is of direct interest to investors anywhere.

We know the place, and the majority of us reject the Reds. We don't reject the Reds per se, we reject the Reds because of Thaksin and his pulling the wool over the eyes of the Red populace. That's important for foreigners everywhere to are invested/vested in the country to know whether locally or from afar.

Further, are we the only people who read the various blogs and news organizations (AOL for example) that pertain to Thailand? No, we're not. Many foreigners abroad consult these sites also, just as they read that which you and I post here. Every word, not - every thread, not. But read here they do. To include especially the government and the Reds alike. (What do you think Thaksin does when he opens his laptop on his Lear? Among other things, he checks in to find out how his Red posters are doing at TVF   .)

Edited June 3, 2010 by Publicus

[JetsetBkk]

I read through some of the red blogger's texts and found almost no mentions of Thaksin etc ......

Did I say the blogger mentioned Thaksin? I don't believe I did. This thread is about Abhisit and the "Deadly Crackdown".

Biased? certainly.

Biased? Well, reporting the blood on the streets and dead bodies might make even the most non-partisan observer a little excited.

Firsthand account? not really.

He reported what he saw, which is what I meant. Is that not first hand?

Mention of the events of the day? None.

He reported on 11th what he saw after the events of the 10th. You raise nit-picking to a new level. And for what? Just to be clever? Almost troll-like.

[Siam Simon]

I'm a retired sexpat, squire.

Your status? Dunno.Many bottom feeders including low paid foreign teachers for example - not all - have WPs/correct visas.However it's not a question of being better or worse, and certainly not denigrating.It's just facing facts.

When the Thai Government wants a foreigner view it talks to key Embassies and the Chambers of Commerce.

There is however an international set in Bangkok.Typical indicators would be membership of the Bangkok Club and/or Royal Bangkok Sports Club and possibly British Club (if prepared to slum it), children at top international schools, monthly salary of at least Bt 400,000, here on 3 to 5 contract not because of having fallen in love with some snub nosed bargirl (or barboy) on holiday.There are also a few - a very few - successful entrepreneurs.They would not be clients of one of this forum's main sponsors!

Very few would have even heard of Thai Visa.

You're a retired sexpat? Well I and many others can assure you it's better to be an active retired sexpat than simply a retired one.    At the retired stage of life especially you need either to use it or lose it.  

The battle between the government and the Reds to win public opinion among the advanced democratic governments and Thai/East Asia scholars of the West is vital and essential to each of the local antagonists. The battle not only includes affecting the governments and opinions leaders of the advanced democracies of N America, Europe, Australia, NZ, (Japan, S Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and others in East Asia as well), it is central to winning the high global ground in the struggle the country is experiencing because the conflicts here bring on the focused attention of the UN, Amnesty International, Transparency International and a number of other credible, respected, prestigious global public service/conscience  groups. This includes discussion boards.

Our respective embassy sends its informed insider reports to our governments, but the locals in their government and in opposition want to know what we on the ground think, why we think as we do, our individual and personal views and rationales in support of our collective if divergent views etc etc because it helps the locals to know our belief and value systems, which both sides need to understand and comprehend, and to view our specific arguments to include TVF polls which help to gauge farang opinion in the country and thus how each side can appeal to farang globally (and how not to).

More significantly, there has been a regular influx of Red posters here who are full of passion and high sounding rhetoric, especially in trying (hopelessly) to represent the authoritarian tyrant Thaksin as a democrat  , going to great lengths to recite lock, stock and barrel the absurd and ludicrous Red/Thaksin line - are such posters at TV to convince me of their (ratty) designs and purposes or are they here to influence others? Which others? 

Thaksin has purchased and pursued an extensive global PR campaign to include posters from such distant places/ratholes as Montenegro intruding on Thailand via ThaiVisa at this newsclippings function. Yes, farang who have a Thai spouse and mixed families in the former LOS and have careers in the country are talking to ourselves, but we are not simply talking to ourselves, we're people vested in the country and thus have opinions and personal insights and experiences that are of value to other farang and, indeed, to other East Asians in their considerations of the present vicissitudes of the country. This quest of farang insider knowledge is of direct interest to investors anywhere.

We know the place, and the majority of us reject the Reds. We don't reject the Reds per se, we reject the Reds because of Thaksin and his pulling the wool over the eyes of the Red populace. That's important for foreigners everywhere to are invested/vested in the country to know whether locally or from afar.

Further, are we the only people who read the various blogs and news organizations (AOL for example) that pertain to Thailand? No, we're not. Many foreigners abroad consult these sites also, just as they read that which you and I post here. Every word, not - every thread, not. But read here they do. To include especially the government and the Reds alike. (What do you think Thaksin does when he opens his laptop on his Lear? Among other things, he checks in to find out how his Red posters are doing at TVF   .)

I'm amazed at myself that I managed to make it through to the end of this delusional and windy post. Thai Visa is the best resource on the 'net for people with personal interests in Thailand, nothing less, nothing more. The likes of yourself and others hijacking the News Clippings threads to spew your propaganda is bad enough, but you personally take it to utterly absurd levels. Anyone in the government's or Thaksin's camps wanting to get opinions from expats could get all the same back-and-forth claptrap that they can read here by spending an hour in any expat pub on a moderately busy night (and at least his brain could be numbed from the pain of having to do so by having a couple of drinks). Sheesh! There are some real oddballs hanging about in this little corner of TV.

And on the subject of new posters popping up in News Clippings recently, the majority have been anti-red, including two who ran up a thousand posts (yes, that's 1,000) apiece within a month of joining . Didn't see you and your merry little tag team complaining about those posters.

[Publicus]

I'm a retired sexpat, squire.

Your status? Dunno.Many bottom feeders including low paid foreign teachers for example - not all - have WPs/correct visas.However it's not a question of being better or worse, and certainly not denigrating.It's just facing facts.

When the Thai Government wants a foreigner view it talks to key Embassies and the Chambers of Commerce.

There is however an international set in Bangkok.Typical indicators would be membership of the Bangkok Club and/or Royal Bangkok Sports Club and possibly British Club (if prepared to slum it), children at top international schools, monthly salary of at least Bt 400,000, here on 3 to 5 contract not because of having fallen in love with some snub nosed bargirl (or barboy) on holiday.There are also a few - a very few - successful entrepreneurs.They would not be clients of one of this forum's main sponsors!

Very few would have even heard of Thai Visa.

You're a retired sexpat? Well I and many others can assure you it's better to be an active retired sexpat than simply a retired one.    At the retired stage of life especially you need either to use it or lose it.  

The battle between the government and the Reds to win public opinion among the advanced democratic governments and Thai/East Asia scholars of the West is vital and essential to each of the local antagonists. The battle not only includes affecting the governments and opinions leaders of the advanced democracies of N America, Europe, Australia, NZ, (Japan, S Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and others in East Asia as well), it is central to winning the high global ground in the struggle the country is experiencing because the conflicts here bring on the focused attention of the UN, Amnesty International, Transparency International and a number of other credible, respected, prestigious global public service/conscience  groups. This includes discussion boards.

Our respective embassy sends its informed insider reports to our governments, but the locals in their government and in opposition want to know what we on the ground think, why we think as we do, our individual and personal views and rationales in support of our collective if divergent views etc etc because it helps the locals to know our belief and value systems, which both sides need to understand and comprehend, and to view our specific arguments to include TVF polls which help to gauge farang opinion in the country and thus how each side can appeal to farang globally (and how not to).

More significantly, there has been a regular influx of Red posters here who are full of passion and high sounding rhetoric, especially in trying (hopelessly) to represent the authoritarian tyrant Thaksin as a democrat  , going to great lengths to recite lock, stock and barrel the absurd and ludicrous Red/Thaksin line - are such posters at TV to convince me of their (ratty) designs and purposes or are they here to influence others? Which others? 

Thaksin has purchased and pursued an extensive global PR campaign to include posters from such distant places/ratholes as Montenegro intruding on Thailand via ThaiVisa at this newsclippings function. Yes, farang who have a Thai spouse and mixed families in the former LOS and have careers in the country are talking to ourselves, but we are not simply talking to ourselves, we're people vested in the country and thus have opinions and personal insights and experiences that are of value to other farang and, indeed, to other East Asians in their considerations of the present vicissitudes of the country. This quest of farang insider knowledge is of direct interest to investors anywhere.

We know the place, and the majority of us reject the Reds. We don't reject the Reds per se, we reject the Reds because of Thaksin and his pulling the wool over the eyes of the Red populace. That's important for foreigners everywhere to are invested/vested in the country to know whether locally or from afar.

Further, are we the only people who read the various blogs and news organizations (AOL for example) that pertain to Thailand? No, we're not. Many foreigners abroad consult these sites also, just as they read that which you and I post here. Every word, not - every thread, not. But read here they do. To include especially the government and the Reds alike. (What do you think Thaksin does when he opens his laptop on his Lear? Among other things, he checks in to find out how his Red posters are doing at TVF   .)

I'm amazed at myself that I managed to make it through to the end of this delusional and windy post. Thai Visa is the best resource on the 'net for people with personal interests in Thailand, nothing less, nothing more. The likes of yourself and others hijacking the News Clippings threads to spew your propaganda is bad enough, but you personally take it to utterly absurd levels. Anyone in the government's or Thaksin's camps wanting to get opinions from expats could get all the same back-and-forth claptrap that they can read here by spending an hour in any expat pub on a moderately busy night (and at least his brain could be numbed from the pain of having to do so by having a couple of drinks). Sheesh! There are some real oddballs hanging about in this little corner of TV.

And on the subject of new posters popping up in News Clippings recently, the majority have been anti-red, including two who ran up a thousand posts (yes, that's 1,000) apiece within a month of joining . Didn't see you and your merry little tag team complaining about those posters.

This thread is about Abhisit being criticized regarding the crackdown. You however would summarily and in your determined and misplaced pursuits would change that. That said..... 

You continue to amuse yourself as in the latest instance of your statement above that "Thai Visa is the best resource on the 'net for people with personal interests in Thailand, nothing less, nothing more," is your attempt to put words into my mouth. That's your statement, an exaggeration, an overstatement, and your statement only. Point out to me where this statement is in my post. Your can't, can you? Correct, you can't. The overreach of the statement is by you and is yours alone.

Your further expansion (to be kind, 'expansion') that Abhisit himself, or Suthep or Korn or any lower level operatives/functionaries would hang out in farang watering holes to get the 'true' scoop is a weak attempt to place such people beneath their dignity or self respect, which comes as no surprise from you. (But of course you're really being humorous aren't you, perhaps even ironic or even sarcastic.)

You are fascinated, fixated on the word "propaganda" towards anyone with a pov different than yours and your cohorts. If you fail to realize that you are excessively repetitive, indeed monotonous in throwing the word around as you nuisance stalk my posts - I'm not the only one to recognize that which you cannot or obsessively pursue. It troubles me not, but I do need to point out your compulsions.   

ThaiVisa continues in its original and vitally informative function of providing Visa information, observations and the personal experiences of expats in Visa matters, and does the definitive work in this respect - and that is a direct, unequivocal statement by and from me, myself. However, with its well known discussion forums, ThaiVisa has extended and grown well beyond its basic function to include becoming a well known and respected discussion board. Your or I, as with so many others, are welcome to participate in the purposes of the TVF board, as well it should be. 

TV enforces the laws of Thailand as they apply to posts made to its board because it knows the site is read regularly and consistently (in addition to it being the proper thing fore TV to do, given that the site needs rules and that the rules per se need to be observed and effectuated). The reality is that the people, the government and the opposition, among others domestic or foreign, read TVF because among other reasons, they want to know what farang vested in the country want and have to say, and why.  

Get real.

[Beltre]

In case you hadn't noticed my remarks -because I was deliberately careful - didn't infringe any TV rule.

What I noticed was:

This post has been edited by LivinginKata: Yesterday, 2010-06-03 15:44:39

Reason for edit: Remark removed - LivinginKata

[jayboy]

We know the place, and the majority of us reject the Reds. We don't reject the Reds per se, we reject the Reds because of Thaksin and his pulling the wool over the eyes of the Red populace. That's important for foreigners everywhere to are invested/vested in the country to know whether locally or from afar.

Further, are we the only people who read the various blogs and news organizations (AOL for example) that pertain to Thailand? No, we're not. Many foreigners abroad consult these sites also, just as they read that which you and I post here. Every word, not - every thread, not. But read here they do. To include especially the government and the Reds alike. (What do you think Thaksin does when he opens his laptop on his Lear? Among other things, he checks in to find out how his Red posters are doing at TVF  

Even the most gifted piss taker couldn't improve on the original.

Without doubt the silliest and most deluded post I have seen for months.What however distinguishes it is its wonderful pomposity.

[hammered]

We know the place, and the majority of us reject the Reds. We don't reject the Reds per se, we reject the Reds because of Thaksin and his pulling the wool over the eyes of the Red populace. That's important for foreigners everywhere to are invested/vested in the country to know whether locally or from afar.

Further, are we the only people who read the various blogs and news organizations (AOL for example) that pertain to Thailand? No, we're not. Many foreigners abroad consult these sites also, just as they read that which you and I post here. Every word, not - every thread, not. But read here they do. To include especially the government and the Reds alike. (What do you think Thaksin does when he opens his laptop on his Lear? Among other things, he checks in to find out how his Red posters are doing at TVF  

Even the most gifted piss taker couldn't improve on the original.

Without doubt the silliest and most deluded post I have seen for months.What however distinguishes it is its wonderful pomposity.

I severely doubt Thaksin is busy checking out what is happening on TV. He no doubt has a few minions who check out and spam the internet media after all that is modern PR and no doubt TV gets an occasional look over but probably isnt on the A-list of sites to be manipulated.

Anyway Im sure Thaksin has better things to do like shagging Lydia or some such other beauty than obsessing on TV fora.

[mazeltov]

In case you hadn't noticed my remarks -because I was deliberately careful - didn't infringe any TV rule.

What I noticed was:

This post has been edited by LivinginKata: Yesterday, 2010-06-03 15:44:39

Reason for edit: Remark removed - LivinginKata

I am impressed Beltre. You are a very observant reader, reminds me of someone else i know with similar skills.

welcome on TV board.

[rixalex]

I am impressed Beltre.

You are obviously a man easily impressed mazeltov. Guess that explains your thing with Thaksin.