Warrant Of Arrest

[Charlie]

Hi Stan,

It is " not " illegal to teach w/o a degree. The guestion here is...... whether the school will accept you to teach...... with or without a degree.

If you have applied for the job with a " fake " degree, then you could be charged

for fraud which is a criminal offence. Some schools will accept (English) teachers

with or without a degree. Mai mee pan har. Good luck.

[DaveYo]

I agree in part that you can teach without a degree. But If I remember correctly not long ago Thailand is clamping down in that department, and making it compulsory now that teachers be certified and have a degree to teach, and such be registered. This news was out not long ago, and I do believe it will be taking effect sometime during the summer of 2004.

So if that is the case then teaching without a degree will be illegal, and these schools have to make a decision of what to do. Once this law goes into effect, another one will kick in for example minimum pay which is 65K a month for Americans themselves. They have a pay scale that is out now for the various countries.

Many schools are barking now about this new law that will be coming around the corner. As to whether or not it becomes official remains to be seen.

So to all the expats, if you don't have that degree better find one the legal way.

Daveyo

[Edward B]

Finally Dave is making some sense here.

Gouged, why oh why did you do the run on them? You could have made up any story, eg. "Mother sick back home, have to leave straight away, thanks for the memories".

Moral of this story: Never sign anything you don't understand. Also, don't quit half-way through a uni degree.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[huski]

If you have applied for the job with a " fake " degree, then you could be charged

for fraud which is a criminal offence. Some schools will accept (English) teachers

with or without a degree.

sounds like the school wants teachers real bad. so they made him and others working there sign a document in THAI that had a statement that they have a degree, and it is geniune. this covered their asses as no one can really prove they got the degrees for them.

he has to stay out of thailand or face these charges which is not recommended. i still think he should go back to the other country he has a passport with and change his identity/last name. get married and finish school two years from now to get a real degree and then return to thailand.

[Nat]

Is it illegal to teach w/o a degree?

When applying for a work permit one must show a degree - therefore it is necessary to have a degree to teach legally. However, there are many schools that will employ individuals without degrees to teach - getting the work permit is the tricky part.

[DaveYo]

Exactly Nat, that is why they then ask you to sign some papers written in Thai and you not know what your signing which is that you certify such documents to be true and etc.

When push comes to shove guess who is the one that pays big time. The person who signed that paper.

Those schools will not go so far because they are smart enough to avoid fraud, yet without that specific proof hard to prosecute them

So here is a piece of advice. If papers are given to you to sign and it is in Thai, kindly ask to have those papers for 48 hours and go to some legit certified translation business and have them translate such word for word to your language. Once they certify that the translations is true and correct you can then bet that document written in Thai is now written in your language for you to read what is in it. At the same token you can have them make certified copies of the Original written in Thai and you keep those certified copies of the Original. Take note of the reason why next paragraph or two here. If you don't like what you see in it, then don't sign it.

Best way to protect your own self. Before you return to such place make copies of such papers written in Thai and make sure you have it as certified true copies of the Original Document, and attach copies that were translated together and keep them for yourself. This is your way to have evidence to protect yourself in case of any problems later on.

When you return never give them the translated papers or the certified copies. You can give the Original Thai papers back to them unsigned and if they ask why not signed, speak up on whatever issues that bothers you. If they agree to your terms, and make another one in Thai, do the same thing all over again as of the process, mentioned above till such is resolved to your liking. Remember get it translated before you sign. Just protect yourself.

To all Foreigners who read this. MAKE IT A HABIT TO HAVE ANY THAI DOCUMENT TRANSLATED TO YOUR LANGUAGE THAT REQUIRE YOUR SIGNATURE. ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO CANNOT READ THAI HANDWRITING OR EVEN SPEAK ANY THAI. DO NOT DO SUCH WITHOUT YOUR PROTECTIONS IN PLACE.

Daveyo

[Col.Kurtz]

What about Child support payments? If someone goes to Thailand and doesn't pay child support payments, can the person be charged, jailed and extradited back to Canada? Just curious.

[DaveYo]

Col Kurtz, that is a legal question best handled by lawyers. You probably need to ask one in Canada to see how far the law will extend and if such applies to other countries. Secondly you need to ask a Lawyer in Thailand to see if they have such law in their books and its implications abroad. Combine these two answers from these lawyers and you will have a pretty good picture of where you stand in this regard.

Normally if you skip child support payments, normal course of channels go into effect depending the area and location etc. First they take the money from your job via the court order, and if you not working they go a step further via any benefits you are receiving. Now if you are still in Canada, this judge can issue out an arrest warrant if the person you are suppose to pay pursues such funds.

Now if you are out of the country nice question and that falls into the lawyers domain. So ask them and please do report to us of your findings. We would all like to know cause it is of interest to men.

Take care

Daveyo

[Col.Kurtz]

DaveYo, I know in Canada, if you're in arrears more than $3000.00 Cdn then they (meaning the Feds) can suspend or refuse to issue a passport or other federally issued licences, permits etc..etc..$3000.00 is not very much and I was surprised by this low amount. It sounds like such a basterdly thing to do (not pay) but every 22 minutes in the US, a man kills himself mainly because of the unfair financial awards that always seem to go against the men. Check out www.fathers.ca I will ask around and post back. Thanks for the reply. Are you in Bkk or ??

[DaveYo]

Hmmmmmmm, don't you think it's kinda steep to refuse in giving you a passport just because of failure of making child support. Whew. I cannot see how they could possibly tie that into the picture. Passport is one thing, child support is another so that would mean to say many fathers high tailed it out of the country to avoid paying. Right or wrong.

Also when such passport is hereby revoked, and if you are in some other country, that country can have the right to arrest you and pick you up and deport you back to your origins. In other words legal kidnapping. So once you arrive back to your country of origins, then they get you there and you face charges.

One way out of it possibly is filing Bankruptcy. I don't know if anyone has done that by claiming Bankruptcy to avoid child support, and making child support as one of the creditors pending. Just a thought.

Like I said before in other threads, society is changing and living is going to be very hard to do when the Government begins to control your living and everyday freedoms. So enjoy it while you can and while it lasts.

Daveyo

[sabaijai]

DaveYo - As far as I know, it's not illegal to go underground, i.e., there are no charges associated with doing so (though I freely admit I'm no legal expert in this area - are you?). I don't see how it 'compounds' the situation in any way, other than the obvious (risking arrest). However this is hardly a high-profile crime and I highly doubt the police will be making any special effort to find and arrest him.

I know several foreigners who have been living underground in Thailand for years. Yaowarat and Phahurat are full of examples. Not only Chinese and South Asians, plenty of farang as well.

You may not consider it a valid option, but he might. It's all up to his level of risk tolerance. If Gouged wants to play it 100% safe, obviously he must forget about Thailand.

But what I'm advising is no different, ethically speaking, than what others have suggested, eg, that he change his name and get a new passport. Surely if Gouged willingly worked under a false degree he can handle living under a false name, etc.

Not the right solution for everyone - only Gouged knows for sure.

[gouged]

I think the best thing is just to go back...change the name and then come back when I am well sorted out with regards to schooling. But it will not be easy convincing my family that a change of name is a good thing. But a sacrifice needs to be made.

I must admit though that the climate of change in Thailand is putting me off. Where will it all go? I am not perfect-as seen by the acts I have taken-but I am a decent guy. However, it seems I am not wanted in Thailand. That is the feeling I am getting with all the posts about visa troubles and the like. Maybe a rash statement but it just seems that we farangs are veiwed in a negative way by the Thais and getting rid of us who do not seem to contribute is a priority.

Thanks all for the advice. I wish I did not make the mistake I made. If anyone can clear up the statute of limitations on this crime I would appreciate. One lawyer told me 10 years...another 5....and today one told me 7. ASnd if I change my name...everything has to be changed..every document everything. And I am wondering if the passport will show the old name? ah well.......best wishes to everyone.

[pnustedt]

everything has to be changed..every document everything. And I am wondering if the passport will show the old name? ah well.......

Don't rush into anything - make up your mind what you want out of this life long term - then go for it and don't do stupid things which will throw you off track for short term expediency! Good luck.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Talk to a lawyer at home Gouged... be frank with him

[DaveYo]

gouged, it is not that Thailand does not want foreigners. They do want foreigners who comply to their requirements and is legit all the way. In fact they welcome such person.

It is the backpackers, drug users, or peddlers, or illegal scams and activities that causes many farangs headaches because of such stupidity. Even when it comes to the degrees etc, or applications and whatever.

Some of this is of true intent, and others as a way to have it easier, and others simply out of ignorance and not knowing what the heck they are doing.

Even Dr. PP here will agree because of all of the bull going on and the way people flaunt and take advantages of certain laws eventually they the Government get to have enough of it and come down hard and lower the boom upon us all.

Those that do things the right way and comply are the ones having to suffer its effects at the end, thus making our lives that much harder.

I however do have to warn you of one thing. Even if you change your name and everything one thing you cannot change is whatever is ordered from the courts such as child support or your crimminal background, it will be attached to your new name. Even in the Passport agency will have a file and a copy of this included into your new name. So keep that in mind.

The only time that your crimminal background or previous court orders do not follow you is when you are under The Government Witness Protection Program, and that such is ordered by some Judge being the Trier of Facts, usually high up in the Court ranks, or the President or Prime Minister themselves. This is usually only reserved to those whose lives are in danger and of their families for testifying against some biggie like the Mafia as an example.

In your case you will not even qualify for such wipeout of your life history.

Up to you.

DaveYo. So before you do such see a lawyer like Dr. PP suggests.

[alanw]

This comment is a little late - but maybe useful.

Regarding degrees and fake degrees. A farang friend has a senior management position in one of the better, legitimate, schools, which operates with full certification etc from all the various Thai ministries etc.

My friend tells me that recently the work permit people have started using a chemical test, to check whether the degree documents submitted are genuine or fake. Seems that the test they are using is a globally accepted test.

[gouged]

Thanks again to all those who've replied. Some great inifo to ponder. To Dave....wow what a lot of good info from you. Much appreciated. I have no criminal record in my home country or any child support. But I can see that and understand that a person would not be able to dodge such things with a change of name. Luckily for me I have had just the one lapse of reasoning and this is the one.

And thanks to the doctor and all the others who've gone out of their way. I will see a lawyer as soon as I get back but I have to feel and do feel that this is such a small thing. It is hard to imagine them doing great damage to me if I return. There is no way that they could give me jail time for a simple offense such as this...where the plaintiff has (in a letter) asked the judge to be lenient...I have no prior history of any wrongdoing in any country.

It is difficult to just turn my back and walk away from a life built up over 3 and a half years. I look at it as essential that I am able to return to Thailand at some point even if it is just to visit my wife's family. And they are such good people that genuinely care for me. My wife's mother has spent the last week clearing up my apartment and cleaning my clothes and packing them off to me. People like that (and that is just 1 example of the multitude of kind things done for me during this debacle.) are important and rare. Turning my back on them and never seeing them again is simply unacceptable. Anyway...I know I am a sentimental shmuck. Thanks for the help and by the way. The statute is 7 years.

[DaveYo]

Well I will put it like this. Before you even attempt to re-enter Thailand my friend, get the guarantee that you not be put to jail or to the hilton. Understand, and this guarantee must be approved by some judge of the court in Thailand. In other words you want immunity from prosecution period and immunity from being arrested for this sort of offense.

Thailand takes very much about crime even if it is little. They don't mess around.

So stay put where you are at, start the new life, and of course airfreight the family back and forth from time to time, but get your girl with you most importantly.

Don't return to Thailand unless you have IMMUNITY FROM PROSECUTION AND ARREST, concerning the fake diploma.

The other option, wait 7 years, then do a complete thourough check for any arrest warrants both in Immigration and Police before you return. If cleared then perhaps you can take that chance.

Daveyo

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Well I will put it like this. Before you even attempt to re-enter Thailand my friend, get the guarantee that you not be put to jail or to the hilton. Understand, and this guarantee must be approved by some judge of the court in Thailand. In other words you want immunity from prosecution period and immunity from being arrested for this sort of offense.

Don't return to Thailand unless you have IMMUNITY FROM PROSECUTION AND ARREST, concerning the fake diploma.

What are your drugs of choice Dave ?

[Col.Kurtz]

DaveYo,

I emailed a lawyer here to find out which countries Canada has agreements with regards to Child Support Enforcement but he said such a list doesn't exist "that he knows of" on the internet......Yea ok. Of course the Gov. doesn't want people to know which countries they can goto to escape support obligations. What I think the Fed's here do, is that they can "Suspend" your passport if repeated attempts for failure to pay come up. They go thru many steps before that one is used. Probably not worth it......

As for Gouged...definately get legal advice. Don't risk anything more like everyone is suggesting. Yes, we all know of stories of people living "underground" in LOS, sneaking across borders etc..etc.. but if you ever get caught doing that shit, you're in some serious "doo-doo". Anyways, good luck to you and let us know how you make out!

Peace everyone!

[surin]

First of all i would like to say a big thanks to all of the responders. I was so worried about being further crucified for my stupidity. There are some really good people on here and I just wanted to say thanks. I will try to answer the questions as best I can.

I was on a non immigrant b when I left. I had left the country and came back on one to stay for the short time then off to my new job.

She is not legally my wife as it is not registered outside of the family.

I have no university degree. Have 2 years towards one but did not complete it.

I went back to the company and kissed their butts and they sent a letter to the police stating that they want to withdraw all charges. The problem is that the police went ahead and got all the info they need from my embassy. This is not a charge that can be withdrawn. It is a crime against the state and once in the hands of the crown it is finished for the complaintant.

Already have a lawyer but he has given me contradicting info. He says that if I come back I will be arrested and then wait to see a judge. Then I will get bail at 40000baht (I don't beleive this as I might not even get bail...and not for 40000) I must plead guilty as I signed the papers that went to the labour board stating I had a degree. I would not have been stupid enough to sign them in the first place but they were in the Thai language and I did not know. After I got the work permit the boss came to me and showed a degree from my home country with my name on it. He said 'You gotta give me 5oo baht for this as I had to pay for it out of my own pocket' I did and thats when I was fully aware of what they had done. Stupid mistake on my part. All I wanted was to stay in Thailand. I never thought it would come to this.

My options are this:

1 Go back to my home country...send for my wife and that is it. (I will miss Thailand and anyone who knows with passion the life there would not be able to do this.)

2 Go back to Thailand and take my medicine. I could get probation...a fine or up to 5 years in jail. (But at least I would be where I am happy and with a girl I have been with for 3 years. Without her I ain't much) And if, at the end, they blacklist me then all for nought.

3 Go back home, change my name and go back hoping for the best.

I cannot believe I put myself in this situation. I made my own bed and curse myself for it. Even if any of you do nothing more in responding...I am already thankful. Funny how small you feel when you have burned the only bridge that ever made you happy.

Sorry to put a dampener on it, but after you serve any time that may be handed down (or fined) you would most likely be deported and described as Person non grata. Fraud other than false pretences, which means that you acted for monetary gain will be taken seriously by the Thai Authorities.....Your choice in returning!

You might even have a conviction recorded against your name that prohibits you from being in Vn or Malaysia,

[DaveYo]

Dr. PP, the only drugs I will ever or even touch is what the Doctor gives me and asprin for my fabulous headaches.

He can get immunity if he got a smart lawyer, who can prove that the University was behind the scheme, which puts the two dead in the middle of a fight. Now whether or not he will be guilty is another matter, but at same token he can also claim defense that he cannot read thai handwriting which for the most part is true.

I know you cannot apply USA Law to Thailand. Sometimes I think of it that way, but never the less he should not go back because they are indeed going to arrest him for fraud.

It is a piddly offense, but it is now amplified because of so much going on in Thailand involving foreigners.

Daveyo

[Sick Boy]

and of course airfreight the family back and forth from time to time

What you mean like box em' up and Fed-Ex em', Dave?

"Oh please, Dad, can't we go economy this time..?"

"NO, BUGGER OFF!, your'e going freight and you'll be BLOODY GRATEFUL!"

[DaveYo]

Hahahahahahaha, that is really good, yes I merely meant to fly them back and forth, and was writing this and looking at an airfreight bill at the same time.

Hahahhahahahaha, got to admit that statement from you is so funny.

Daveyo

[Sick Boy]

Glad you liked that, Dave.

Your posts have me in bits.

[Rolling Stone]

At the end of the day IMHO I would just say goodbye to the land of smiles for 10 years. I think I understand what you mean about the passion for living here but then again maybe I don't. I chose Thailand as a base for living while doing business in SE Asia because of so many different reasons but one was not that it held some special feelings or lifestyle that I felt I could not find elsewhere in SE Asia. I needed to buy in 6 different countries in the Area and Thailand offered the most advanced country for the best price.

Don't get me wrong the people are great the climate and the environment are great as well but that can be found in so many places in SE Asia. Thats why I may be missing something when you talk about the passion for living in the LOS that I also see so many others speak of here.

Why risk one day in Thai jail is my question? Just don't come back and have the wife sort out her passport so she can go to you where ever it is you decide to reside in SE Asia if thats the lifestyle you wish to continue leading.

The life here is ok but not worth risking jail time in a Thailand cell for over something so minor. To many other places in SE Asia with people just as friendly, environment just as lovely and a lifestyle just as relaxing. Spend the cash you would spend on a lawyer etc to sort out life somewhere else and to sort out your "wife's" passport so she can join you.

Keep it real!

[gouged]

Thanks Rolling stone. I guess it is always hard to let go of the past. You are right that there is life elsewhere...I am in Vietnam and loving it. It is just the wife. I may sound like a shmuck but I got a good one and they ain't easy to find...###### near impossible. So i got to do everything I can to make it happen. I will save as much as I can here (The wages are double what they are in Thailand) and head back home to work out the arrangements for my wife to come. I am so ###### glad that I had the sense to keep a healthy nest egg otherwise I would be in Jail now. Those lawyers almost wiped me out...but they got me out. I guess if one beleives in fate then there must be some good reason for all of this. I am glad I posted here even though someone probably knows who I am....the responses were phenominal. I thank all of you.

[frenchFARANGbkk]

So you are still in Vietnam now?

[DaveYo]

Oh by the way please do take note. For most foreigners living in Vietnam, you need about 1,200.00 a month to live decently. They have two levels there. One level for a Vietnamese which 500 dollars is darn good living and the other is foreigner living which 1200 dollars is minimum. USA money wise.

So if you have money now be VERY CAREFUL WITH IT PLEASE. Yes the income is about twice of that in Thailand, but in Thailand your money goes two times farther than in Vietnam.

Also living standards, rules and regulations are different, and you still have to be careful of what you do over there. Vietnam is a bit more stricter to foreigners and until they relax their policies, one has to still stay on their toes.

Just don't violate any rules or directives in Vietnam. God only knows what their prisons might be like in their jungle. If you mess this one up, you can kiss SE Asia goodbye.

Oh, and by the way do one very important thing for yourself right now. It is imperative that you know precisely and exactly where you stand. >>>>>>>>>>

Find out the extradiction treaty between Vietnam and Thailand!!!!!!!!! If for some reason Thailand wants to pursue you in Vietnam, find out if Vietnam is allowed to extradite you to Thailand, or they expel you from Vietnam. You still have to make sure you know exactly where you stand regarding your minor offense which to me and to others is piddly and not worth pursuing, but to some it is a big issue and Thailand might be one of them.

Understand. Cover your back completely all the way around and close out all loop holes concerning your predicament. OK

If all is still clear, set up something to give you advance warning should things turn around against you. Like have an informant in Thailand give you a buzz to tip you off if they make a move on you. That is if you know someone in Thailand that has direct access to pertinent information etc.

And good luck in Vietnam. That should just about do it and hopefully all this covers your back and you have the good life. Adios

Remember never underestimate Government Authority and of what they can do.

Daveyoti

[buasaard]

I think the best thing is just to go back...change the name and then come back when I am well sorted out with regards to schooling

I don't know how much thai immigration is "stupid". I don't know which town are you from, where were you born. Supposing you were not born in a big city, if the computer at immigration works properly, it would show :

We are searching for a man named John Smith, born in Smalltown on february 4th 1974, now comes to immigration Frank White, born in Smalltown on february 4th 1974, here's his picture (they have your picture from visa application).

Is it the same person?

If you get there, after the jail probably would be blacklisted for life. So there's no point in getting back. Call your girl out of Thailand, marry her, take her to your home country and have a job, or after married go on working in Vietnam until the crime will be statute-barred (correct?) according to thai law.

I know this is not how you planned your life, but you can consider this a "payment" for your "stupidity" as you called.

Of course you should also contact a thai lawyer through your wife, to know better what you risk etc..