Most Thai Teachers Fail In Their Own Subjects

[nickjam]

I'd take this report with a pinch of salt and would be interested to see just how difficult the test was. I've met many Thai teachers who impressed me thoroughly with their methods and knowledge of their subjects. Conversely, I've cringed at some of the complete dimwits that dictate from a book and arrogantly defend their so-called expertise. Strangely enough, I've had similar varied experiences with western teachers out here.

I do think that that the Thai government needs to admit it's failings and address the following problems: Low pay, Untouchable school directors that are completely out of touch with modern teaching methods, the culture of everyone passes and finally the inevitable corruption (parents being able to buy their child's qualifications and more worryingly, school directors asking for payment to grant promotions and pay rises) I've worked in Thai, bi-lingual and international schools and have witnessed some truly awful behaviour from the so-called leaders and guardians of children's education. There's little or no support given to teachers and no incentive for them to further their training. I also feel that parents must share some blame as so many seem disinterested and not willing to question what is going on in schools.

I'm sorry to say that all these failings are the result of mismanagement and that starts at the top. Let's push some of the sh*t back up hill for a change. A fair wage for Thai teachers would be a start

[Throatwobbler]

While the teachers may not be of the highest quality, one should also consider the quality of the tests. I've seen Thai language tests in mathematics and physics. These tests are very difficult, and I went to a top 20 grad school for physics. The level of difficulty of the questions is roughly equivalent to 2nd or 3rd year university, some even higher.

My strong suspicion is that the tests themselves are the largest part of problem. These tests are written by individuals holding PhDs, most of whom obtained their post-baccalaureate credentials abroad. They are out of touch with what a high school level course should consist of. The most able Thai teachers tend to set excruciatingly difficult tests for their students, expecting an average of about 30% and then curving the results.

I agree. The standard of the tests is way above what should be asked in a lot of cases. The biggest problem is that people further down the chain can't question their superiors so nothing gets done about the problem.

[wilgoster]

In the US tests are built under standards that 1) are "normed" on a population that the test is to be used, 2) are subjected to reliability (consistency) and validity (measure what they are intended to measure) research. Before test results can be discussed, we really need to know about these "tests"; but we don't. Anyone care to enter the discussion with this kind of info?

[FlyingLex]

This is not new. It is a resulat of the thai comunitie. SEE NOTHING WHEN IT IS WRONG. WHOLE Thailand works so

[BkkMD]

Not good enough..Who are teaching the teachers??

Who is teaching the teachers?

It's endemic..........

Who are teaching those teaching the teachers? THAT is the real issue at hand here.

[erniebanks]

What does a Thai teacher make here in Thailand?

Is it 10,000 baht a month or is it less?

So picture you are really good with math. I mean really good.

You can go to any place on earth and get a computer science job, insurance job, or any of another numerous high paying jobs that will pay you over 100,000 dollars a year.

So of course good math people are not teachers.

And if the teacher was good at math, he would quit his job and go and make money.

Just the way it is.

[BkkMD]

In the US tests are built under standards that 1) are "normed" on a population that the test is to be used, 2) are subjected to reliability (consistency) and validity (measure what they are intended to measure) research. Before test results can be discussed, we really need to know about these "tests"; but we don't. Anyone care to enter the discussion with this kind of info?

Yes.. and we all know how that is working out for the US

[eggomaniac]

This report is frankly misleading.

The test that the teachers took (OBEC) was not the same kind of test that is taken by the students (O-NET). It's perfectly possible that the test was particularly difficult, even for experienced teachers. The results are meaningless and the journalism shoddy.

Well, that is very interesting. Maybe TV can Post some of the tests and make passing a requirement for Commenting.

<<< Joking aside, There are other International ranking systems for education, that Thailand did not score very high on. One of the Kingdom's main reasons for failure to make the Next 11 list, along with Viet Nam and the Philipines, was its low rate of literacy in the World's Official language.

[Johpa]

Basically I think that the government want's to keep the poor, poor and uneducated then they are no threat to the thai elite's way of life.

The same holds true in the US where the public education system is a sea of mediocrity. Sure the wealthier neighborhoods are able to attract and hire the best of the bunch, and yes there are some really amazing individuals who are willing to challenge both themselves and the system by seeking work in poorer neighborhoods. But overall public education around the world is a sea of mediocrity, with low political priority and pathetic funding. The teachers are happy to enjoy tax-payer subsidized health care and retirement benefits, and enjoy all the kiddie holidays possible, especially summer vacation. The primary rule is not to rock the boat. The elite do not want competition from the masses so they send their kids to the private schools, both in Thailand and in the west where their children get the education and the economic backing to succeed and enter the elite colleges.

But don't put too much into these exam results. Some 25 years ago I was involved in a graduate research project in the US that administered the university's English proficiency exam to native speakers. Foreign students who failed to achieve a certain level of proficiency were required to take additional ESL classes at an additional expense to normal tuition, thus providing employment to graduate students like myself. Yet 30% of the native speakers failed to achieve that same minimal proficiency.

So before you criticize Thailand reflect back upon your home country to see if it is substantively any better in funding public education.

[tigermonkey]

Oh my god. No wonder when I asked peeople in Thailand with 13 years of education

and did not recognise such names as Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, Dalai Lama and

Gandi. Could not point where Europe was or where the USA was. Could not tell me

a single planet in the Universe.

Most can't point to where Thailand is on a map of the world.

It seems to me that if it ain't Thailand it ain't taught, that's why everyone is so nationalistic and farangs are not important.

Most of the well educated attend schools abroad. Singapore, Uk etc.

It's hard to learn when you're not allowed to question.

I'm considering pulling my daughter out of school.

She's been there two years and still can't read numbers 1-10 if you jumble them around.

She can sing plenty of songs though.

It just seems a waste of money to me...

Excuse me, most people I know could point Thailand out on a map but I think

Europe and USA (Europe being a whiole continent) are more significant than

Thailand and not a fair comparison. Thank you.

Excuse me but I speak the truth. I've asked many ordinary people, children and adults "show me Thailand on this map".

Many have stared at it for a long time and can not show me where.

I think it is a very fair comparison. If I were Thai I would expect to know where in the world my country was.

I have read on Thaivisa of a teacher who brought in a globe to his classroom only to be told be his superiors to remove it.

They probably didn't want to "upset the apple cart" so to speak.

Thank you.

Wow -- how could you be so stupid, as to bring a globe into the classroom -- didn't that teacher know that the Earth is flat ?

[eggomaniac]

In the US tests are built under standards that 1) are "normed" on a population that the test is to be used, 2) are subjected to reliability (consistency) and validity (measure what they are intended to measure) research. Before test results can be discussed, we really need to know about these "tests"; but we don't. Anyone care to enter the discussion with this kind of info?

Yes.. and we all know how that is working out for the US

#20 among civilised countries for high school proficiency, but, oddly, much higher in World standings for Post Secondary, [maybe the foreign Asian students results are counted]

[IvanDobsky]

What does a Thai teacher make here in Thailand?

Is it 10,000 baht a month or is it less?

So picture you are really good with math. I mean really good.

You can go to any place on earth and get a computer science job, insurance job, or any of another numerous high paying jobs that will pay you over 100,000 dollars a year.

So of course good math people are not teachers.

And if the teacher was good at math, he would quit his job and go and make money.

Just the way it is.

Right, because (making money) right now is more important than (educating) the next generation. Human nature is to take now and worry about tomorrow when it eventually arrives.

[Meadowlark]

When you see results like this you have to ask what was wrong with the test. Many years ago I was talking to a guy who was teaching introductory accounting in English at a newly opened Thai university (St. John's, if it matters). He was telling me the Thai University Affairs Office, which set the curriculum standards, required him to create final exam questions of a level of difficulty he would expect to find on the United States CPA (Certified Public Accountant) exam -- an exam taken after a person has studied accounting for four years and worked at least two years in the field. In other words, the people writing the test questions were not trying to discover how much of the material that had been presented to the students they had learned, they were simply trying to create a barrier to success so that the only students who could get a passing grade were those who cheated or those who got favorable treatment one way or another. I'll bet this exam was the same.

By the way, when I was trying to teach high school mathematics in English, I couldn't get a copy of the curriculum in English, so I bought a number of the books students use to cram for the university entrance exams. The topics covered included things like symbolic logic, calculus, and trigonometric equations. Since the school week allowed for four hours a week of study over three years, I can guarantee no students could have learned all that subject matter.

So the problem is with the people making the tests. It may be true that many Thai teachers really do not know their subject matter, but the tests are not properly designed to show that. Any time you have 80% of testees "fail", your criteria for failure are not valid.

i would agree that,with such an high percentage of failure, the this is invalid. A test of this nature must reflect the subject matter that teachers themselves learned and the questions must be drawn from same subject matter.

[Sheps99]

Simple mathematics would be a good place to start. How many times have you purchased an item say for b920-00 and you give the cashier b1020.00. They still work it out on a calculator and look at you as if you are crazy.

[12DrinkMore]

At the risk of being flamed out of existence, I think that this whole education issue has to be put into perspective.

1. There are simply not enough jobs around for highly educated people.

2. There are a lot of jobs going for people just happy to have a job and do manual labour, or be a salesgirl, waitress, secretary etc.

3. Ergo, there is no point in striving to educate lots of people about Mr. Kahn, or Mr Ghandi, or algebra or Mr Einstein, or where London is located.

So the Thai system seems to be working in an ideal way. It produces loads and loads of peeps with no greater ambitions other than to drink two large Changs/day and/or have a a bit of fun at the workplace. Plus, and I have no idea how many, but it must be huge, small entrepreneurs running the noodle stands, curry shops, clothing stalls, motorcylce taxis, etc etc. And they can all work out the following equation.

Sales minus Expenses must be positive or we're out of business.

That is enough. Hard core algebra at work.

And look at the UK, Labour had this policy that everybody should get a higher educational qualification. The result is that the system gets dumbed down to achieve this, churning out loads of illiterate graduates.

Surely a system that produces a lot of relatively ignorant but "happy with their lot" people is better than a system which produces a load of ambitious educated and frustrated people?

That, as I see it, is the reality of life.

So turn on the LCD TV, buy in the Changs and watch the World Fartball Championship. It doesn't get any better for 99% of the population.

[yesdavy]

When you see results like this you have to ask what was wrong with the test. Many years ago I was talking to a guy who was teaching introductory accounting in English at a newly opened Thai university (St. John's, if it matters). He was telling me the Thai University Affairs Office, which set the curriculum standards, required him to create final exam questions of a level of difficulty he would expect to find on the United States CPA (Certified Public Accountant) exam -- an exam taken after a person has studied accounting for four years and worked at least two years in the field. In other words, the people writing the test questions were not trying to discover how much of the material that had been presented to the students they had learned, they were simply trying to create a barrier to success so that the only students who could get a passing grade were those who cheated or those who got favorable treatment one way or another. I'll bet this exam was the same.

By the way, when I was trying to teach high school mathematics in English, I couldn't get a copy of the curriculum in English, so I bought a number of the books students use to cram for the university entrance exams. The topics covered included things like symbolic logic, calculus, and trigonometric equations. Since the school week allowed for four hours a week of study over three years, I can guarantee no students could have learned all that subject matter.

So the problem is with the people making the tests. It may be true that many Thai teachers really do not know their subject matter, but the tests are not properly designed to show that. Any time you have 80% of testees "fail", your criteria for failure are not valid.

Sounds like minority students in the USA. Instead of rising to the educational occasion, blame the educational content and testing procedures and then lobby until the education system is dumbed down so that failing students don't suffer loss of self-esteem. This has America trying to catch down to the rest of the world.

You know, the truth of the matter may be that these teachers took the tests like they teach. If the tests were taken durning normal work hours, they refused to participate with any effort. If you want them to pass, you must pay them some tea money and test them again after hours.

[dissonant]

I've noticed that the Science textbooks for prathom classes are very difficult, in my opinion. I teach in an English program, and the vocabulary levels, in the English language science textbooks are very high for their corresponding grade levels. There is something wrong when the science text is far more grammatically complex than the English textbook, ridiculously so.

Edited June 9, 2010 by dissonant

[tigermonkey]

Are Thai teachers incompetent and untrained?

Were the teacher exams to difficult and set up for failure ?

Is the Thai education system grossly underfunded?

Is the national curriculum substandard ( by most global standards) ?

Is there a complete lack of direction and supervision of teachers at the national, provincial, regional and individual school levels ?

Is the "pass them all" directive totally conterproductive to motivating students ?

I could continue with many more ----- there is truth in all of these statements, to varying degrees in different locations. What really is showing here is a long term societal problem which prescribes that this will be the educational system for Thailand.

The mindset of Thai society continues to linger in the age of feudalism -- the upper class ( you know -- the 3% who control more than 80% of the wealth in Thailand) have it the way they want it , and can get the appropriate education for their children, while the masses do not even begin to understand the value of education, and their children are completely unmotivated to learn anything beyond survivalism except Thai tradition, Thai songs and reverence for Buddha and the monarchy.

It has often been said in this Forum that the answer to many Thai problems is through education. I say that the greater problem is motivating Thai society to want education -- a grass roots change that can not and will not occur in the classroom.

I have no answer -- perhaps the Thai government could start to intensively tell Thailand about the rest of the world on television, and try to create a desire for knowledge.

Until then --- I will continue to ask my wife and others the names of two planets in our solar system -- and I will continue to get the answr " I don't care ".

[elcent]

From my observations, many kids join extra private classes to get their education from there. They usually go for English and Math private lessons, or use some extraordinary self teaching techniques. Unfortunately, most parents can't effort it.

I also observed that many, or even most gov schools have English tutors together with Thai counterparts (for explaining gramar the "Thai way"). Many of these kids are extremely bright, but surely not from the elite but common folks (middle class and the poor).

As conclusion I can say that it is utmost important to support "Education for All". As history has shown, most of important achievements were from the poor and hungry. Who knows, it maybe by a Somsak or Noi from the poor who finds the cure for a common cold or even cancer.

[Mosha]

The English teachers that I know around my area can't converse in the language they teach. A couple of years ago 2 from the local school turned up at our house. They had downloaded a scientific paper, and were using it to set the kids questions. This school is the infant/primary level. I make no wonder the kids never get pastt "Hello, how are you?"

One teacher I do know who speaks good English told one of her pupils not to listen to the Farang. She set had the kids homework about clothing. One of the questions was about what I would call a pullover or jumper. The question was multi-choice, the spelling was British English. The choices were: Sweater, Jersey, Jumper, and Pullover She asked her step dad, and he said jumper. When she came home the next day she told him he was wrong, it was a Sweater. A few days later a few Brits and Aussies were at his place and he asked us what we thought, and we all replied Jumper or Pullover. Stupid thing is all the answers offered in the homework were correct.

[dumball]

As a comparison , my wifes sister has been taking English language for two years , three hours a day averaging three point five days a week , her written English is beautiful , she reads it very well and her diction is clear , her understanding capabilities are still a work in process . My wife on the other hand , has no formal education , she has self taught English living with me , no reading or writing , but in normal conversation she barely misses a word that is spoken , she can not only read numbers in any order , she can add a handfull of cash register tapes 'In her head' and be within a few cents , writing the totals in a columne she gets 100 % .

We of course do not live in Thailand but in Cambodia , where schools are far fussier as to the teachers qualifications , even child vendors are capable of decent conversation . Thailand should be ashamed of its teaching methods .

[bangon04]

Yes, absolutely its the fault of the governing bodies with their myopic, antiquated and arrogant views on their "perfect educational system". When The Thai ministry for education starts to apply international standards of teaching and removes the stupid "zero student failure" policy then maybe we'll see some progress.

I knew a uni lecturer in marketing at a prominent university that told me many stories that were just so insane. Such as the fact that the text books for the curriculum were 10 years old and NONE of the techniques applied to present day dynamics. When she complained the response was a virtual "mai pen rai". When the department eventually were granted budget to update text books they blew it on something else and a large slice went into the faculty directors pockets! This is the kind of typical practice that is going on daily within the Thai system.

also as it is common culture to give most students a pass even if they did't how many of these teachers had lower marks than were shown here.Yes its a worry...If any body doubts my comment go ask some teachers...

This is one thing that really peeved me off when I was teaching English. We were told to "not fail" any student. Especially in private colleges where the owners were reliant on the student fees revenues from parents with kids that couldn't care less about learning and used the class as a joke and game playing opp. Test paper remarks such as "26/100 Failure,.. did not apply him/herself at all throughout the course,- showed total disinterest and was impossible to teach" had to be amended to something like,..."Student shows strong potential to develop and seems enthusiastic about learning English. With naturally smart and bright characteristics this student could really excel with a little more effort". It was either that or....hit the highway Jack we'll find a replacement teacher that's happy to such shit and embellish reports!

This report is frankly misleading.

The test that the teachers took (OBEC) was not the same kind of test that is taken by the students (O-NET). It's perfectly possible that the test was particularly difficult, even for experienced teachers. The results are meaningless and the journalism shoddy.

"MIsleading".... you must be from the Ministry of education. I have personally worked within the education system for many years and this report is just the tip of the iceberg.

No wonder that a Thai Uni degree is considered internationally as not being worth the paper it's written on. That's why all the top Thai academics, doctors and professors all have overseas tertiary qualifications.

This kind of report is in my view long overdue and needs to be further broadcast and investigated.

Time to wake up Thailand,... educationally you are the laughing stock of SE Asia and being trampled all over by Vietnam, Korea, China, Japan and even the Philippines.

This is one major reason I'm taking my kids OS for at least some of their educational years and ALL of their higher education during which time I hope and expect that the "MPR" influence and mentality will be seen for the transparent hypocrisy and debilitation that it mostly is!

Oh... dear...sorry I got a bit carried away.... didn't mean to be so rude!.... Mai Pen Rai!

Is this item reported in the Thai press and TV news? Or is it too unpatriotic to present a negative opinion of the Thai system? Many of the prominent members of the government and Thai society have been educated overseas, so we must assume that the staus quo suits them very well.

Also I understand from Thai friends that they expect the university entrance tests to be extremely difficult, but once accepted into university, they do not expect to work or to fail. So the entrance tests are the equivalent of a final qualification. If you get through, you are qualified and can relax.

[khunmarc]

blind leading the blind

Its there way to keep the villagers in the dark

who in the Elite wants an educated populace??/ they might be able to figure out where they getting it LOL

[kano85]

Anyone surprised ?????? I'm not

Charlie

[tigermonkey]

From my observations, many kids join extra private classes to get their education from there. They usually go for English and Math private lessons, or use some extraordinary self teaching techniques. Unfortunately, most parents can't effort it.

I also observed that many, or even most gov schools have English tutors together with Thai counterparts (for explaining gramar the "Thai way"). Many of these kids are extremely bright, but surely not from the elite but common folks (middle class and the poor).

As conclusion I can say that it is utmost important to support "Education for All". As history has shown, most of important achievements were from the poor and hungry. Who knows, it maybe by a Somsak or Noi from the poor who finds the cure for a common cold or even cancer.

This all sounds wonderful -- but I am curious where you have made your observations. Unfortunately, there are no private classes or English tutors in our area -- or for a very long distance away from here. It's a even long school bus ride for the kids to high school -- yes, education for all who want it .

[Colabamumbai]

Most Thai teachers fail in their own subjects

BANGKOK (AFP) -- High school test results in Thailand have revealed a failure rate of more than 80 percent in mathematics, biology and computer studies -- among the teachers.

The failure rates for teachers who took exams in their own subjects were about 88 percent for computer studies, 84 percent for mathematics, 86 percent in biology and 71 percent in physics, the education ministry said.

And almost 95 percent of about 37,500 secondary school directors did not score a pass mark in English and technology, according to the ministry.

The poor results have ignited controversy in Thailand about educational standards.

"Even teachers fail, so how can we raise the quality of students?" Education Minister Chinnaworn Boonyakiat was quoted as saying by the Bangkok Post newspaper.

More than 84,000 teachers and school directors took the exams, the first of their kind.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2010-06-09

That is why they hire people like me.

[Colabamumbai]

Most Thai teachers fail in their own subjects

BANGKOK (AFP) -- High school test results in Thailand have revealed a failure rate of more than 80 percent in mathematics, biology and computer studies -- among the teachers.

The failure rates for teachers who took exams in their own subjects were about 88 percent for computer studies, 84 percent for mathematics, 86 percent in biology and 71 percent in physics, the education ministry said.

And almost 95 percent of about 37,500 secondary school directors did not score a pass mark in English and technology, according to the ministry.

The poor results have ignited controversy in Thailand about educational standards.

"Even teachers fail, so how can we raise the quality of students?" Education Minister Chinnaworn Boonyakiat was quoted as saying by the Bangkok Post newspaper.

More than 84,000 teachers and school directors took the exams, the first of their kind.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2010-06-09

And when I when I offer them US. degrees online or in class they look at me as a stupid ferang. AWE American Way English tied to universities in the US. and England.

[hansum]

blind leading the blind

Its there way to keep the villagers in the dark

who in the Elite wants an educated populace??/ they might be able to figure out where they getting it LOL

Dont the recent protests and voting out the historic ruling elites show theyve finally figured it out.

IMO it seems as if Thailand would sooner compete with Cambodia and Burma as opposed to S Korea, Taiwan etc..

[dumball]

'kano85' date='2010-06-09 22:12' timestamp='1276096333' post='3676553']

Anyone surprised ?????? I'm not

Charlie

I was somewhat surprised that the news item was posted , but not so much by what it contained , even less surprised by many of the excuses offered by competent posters , how can a self confessed professional , work in such an incompetent environment on a daily basis , feeling of superiority perhaps ?

Personally , I could not bang my head against the wall in frustration , knowing my students were doomed to almost positive failure and still live in a form of denied hope , what use the carnage if so few survive the onslaught ?

[atyclb]

Someone I know very well worked with top tier that medical university graduates without international training and said they were as competent as USA licensed doctors. They often do very well on the US exams.

My friend from chula and mahidol are quite smart and serious. chula students are upset that thaksin bought the entrance exam for his daughter. Don't forget the usa has dropped alot academically in world standing.

"MIsleading".... you must be from the Ministry of education. I have personally worked within the education system for many years and this report is just the tip of the iceberg.

No wonder that a Thai Uni degree is considered internationally as not being worth the paper it's written on. That's why all the top Thai academics, doctors and professors all have overseas tertiary qualifications.

This kind of report is in my view long overdue and needs to be further broadcast and investigated.

Time to wake up Thailand,... educationally you are the laughing stock of SE Asia and being trampled all over by Vietnam, Korea, China, Japan and even the Philippines.

This is one major reason I'm taking my kids OS for at least some of their educational years and ALL of their higher education during which time I hope and expect that the "MPR" influence and mentality will be seen for the transparent hypocrisy and debilitation that it mostly is!

Oh... dear...sorry I got a bit carried away.... didn't mean to be so rude!.... Mai Pen Rai!

Edited June 9, 2010 by atyclb