Americans Doing Ach Transfers To Bangkok Bank New York

[Jingthing]

A basic question I would like confirmed. To do this, all you need to open is a Bangkok Bank account in THAILAND, correct? You don't need to open a Bangkok Bank account in the USA, correct? So to do an ACH transfer to Bangkok Bank New York that will end up in your Thailand Bangkok Bank account, all you need to do is to do an ACH transfer to Bangkok Bank New York using your Bangkok Bank Thai bank account number, correct?

(If so, don't the US banks know that number is for a non-US based bank account, based on the format? So they don't care?)

Also, have people who have tried this recently had good success? Are there USA banks that will reject these requests?

I am finally considering trying this out, which would mean opening a Thai BB account. If I have to open one in New York, I won't.

To further clarify, I am talking about doing ACH domestic transfers that still will end up in Thailand. I am NOT talking about SWIFT transfers (I know all about those).

Thanks.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Jingthing

[pkrv]

Yes your questions are answered here

http://www.thaivisa....avings-account/"

and

http://www.thaivisa....nt-in-thailand/

Please note I am UK based - I know nothing of those who are US based - But the guys from the US have posted. It seems that transfers via Bangkok Bank's correspondent banks London or New York ;New York (I think they named it twice;) You cannot remotely open a Bangkok Bank Passbook Savings Account - look through the theads - Seems to work.

Edited July 2, 2010 by pkrv

[Jingthing]

Thanks. This link appears to go into detail about this:

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Business%20Banking/SMEs/Transfering%20Funds/Receiving%20Funds/Pages/Receiving%20Funds%20from%20USA.aspx

[lopburi3]

My last transfer was three days ago. You use the ACH routing number of BBL NY and your normal account number. You must not attempt to draw funds back so you need to advise sending bank you do not have that authority. Using USAA Bank there was no need for test deposits when I set it up.

[pkrv]

Thanks. This link appears to go into detail about this:

http://www.bangkokba...from%20USA.aspx

You are fast -please get back to us from the US end - PKRV

[JimGant]

...all you need to do is to do an ACH transfer to Bangkok Bank New York using your Bangkok Bank Thai bank account number, correct?

The transfer to BBNY is using their ABA routing transit number; the second part is your BB Thailand account number. Looks identical to a strictly domestic transfer operation, i.e., you provide both an ABA number *and* an account number. The difference is: the money gets to BBNY, where they then SWIFT transfer* it to your account in Thailand, same as if it had been a wire transfer conveyed through them. The SWIFT encoding seems to make this all legit re the new International ACH Transfer (IAT) rules (don't bother reading up on this without at least 3 aspirins).

If I have to open one in New York, I won't.

Couldn't if you wanted to. BBNY is not a retail bank.

Also, have people who have tried this recently had good success? Are there USA banks that will reject these requests?

At one time, banks that used the CashEdge ACH middleman(e.g, Bank of America)stopped this procedure. However, it has since been re-established, as CashEdge apparently became comfortable with the SWIFT link in the overall process. This is not to say that all will honor the process, even tho' the ABA/Acct Number mechanics should be transparent. Those that require you to use their "bill pay" procedure, and the inherent third party aspect, might give you some problem.

*I've recovered the paperwork from my BB Thai bank after an ACH transfer -- and it reads just like a SWIFT wire transfer, including using the term "SWIFT." So, that should satisfy the Feds from the security standpoint.

Not all Thai banks doing business in the US have ABA numbers, as far as I can tell (in fact, maybe only BBNY has gone the extra mileage to obtain one...). So, maybe that is why BBNY is the only ACH game in town......

[craigt3365]

I have done this many times...mainly for amounts over 20k USD. Opened a BB account here in Thailand and transfer the $$$$ via the internet. Takes 2-4 days depending on when you do it, etc. But easy as pie. I also use USAA.

[walt]

And when you all do this type of transfer through the U.S. banking system, you also remember to tick off that box on your IRS 1040 form declaring you have an interest in an overseas bank with an account in excess of $10,000 -- RIGHT?

[NovaBlue05]

I assume the IRS is interested in interest earned on any account foreign or domestic. Interest on a 1 million Baht Thai savings account would be what......about $10 a year?

[Jingthing]

And when you all do this type of transfer through the U.S. banking system, you also remember to tick off that box on your IRS 1040 form declaring you have an interest in an overseas bank with an account in excess of $10,000 -- RIGHT?

That's a related, but off topic. Yes you tick the form, but also must file a separate form to US treasury if you are required to under the rules. The rule is any combination of foreign accounts which reach 10K USD at any point during a calender year (one account or in aggregate).

More details here --

Past deadline to report for 2009.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Jingthing

[craigt3365]

I assume the IRS is interested in interest earned on any account foreign or domestic. Interest on a 1 million Baht Thai savings account would be what......about $10 a year?

Absolutely. The penalty is crazy if you get caught. I did not report any interest...as they really isn't any. But like said here before, if you have more than 10k at any time in any combination of accounts, you have to report. I had to do 2 forms. One for the joint account and one for wifey for hers. Just to be safe...

[JimGant]

I had to do 2 forms. One for the joint account and one for wifey for hers. Just to be safe.

Fortunately, all our accounts, joint and single, are lumped together under the Bangkok Bank Internet banking umbrella. So, we just file one form, using the BB Internet banking ID number.

Interestingly, any 'joint' nature requires that all applicable signatures be applied to the form. However, if you followed Turbo Taxes' guidance, you wouldn't have reached this conclusion.

But, that the form is filed at all seems to be the only pertinent point to this whole drill, particularly if the Feds are cross referencing with equivalent action on your Form 1040.

[Pib]

I had to do 2 forms. One for the joint account and one for wifey for hers. Just to be safe.

Fortunately, all our accounts, joint and single, are lumped together under the Bangkok Bank Internet banking umbrella. So, we just file one form, using the BB Internet banking ID number.

Interestingly, any 'joint' nature requires that all applicable signatures be applied to the form. However, if you followed Turbo Taxes' guidance, you wouldn't have reached this conclusion.

But, that the form is filed at all seems to be the only pertinent point to this whole drill, particularly if the Feds are cross referencing with equivalent action on your Form 1040.

Assuming we are talking about filing the Treasury Dept TD F 90-22.1 form it doesn't matter if the filer has multiple accounts at multiple banks as a person can report multiple bank accounts from multiple banks on one form submission. Part II and Part III of the form has plenty of blocks for single or joint owned account entries from different banks. Also, per the form instructions, both you and the spouse can/should sign the same form submission for "jointly owned account" information...no need for the spouse to submit a separate submission/form if the spouse (who is also a U.S. citizen/person per page 6 of 8) only has a joint account with the filer and doesn't have a single owned account. Partial quote from the form instructions follows:

Partial Quote from Page 8 of 8 of form: "A spouse having a joint financial interest in an account with the filing spouse should be included as a joint account owner in Part III of this report. The filer should write (spouse) on Line 26 after the last name of the joint spousal owner. If the only reportable accounts of the filer’s spouse are those reported as joint accounts, the filer’s spouse need not file a separate report. If the accounts are owned jointly by both spouses, the filer’s spouse should also sign the report." End quote.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf

[craigt3365]

Turbo Tax actually alerted me to this during the "interview". It even had me fill out two forms. One for her and one for me on the joint account. Read the directions carefully...it says:

"Each United States person who has a financial interest in or signature or other authority over any foreign financial accounts".

I read that to mean we both have to fill one out...better safe than sorry with these buggers. I am an ex-tax guy...I've seen too many problems over small issues. Don't want an audit!

[Pib]

But when reading the detailed instructions, above only applies when a spouse has a "Separately Owned" account; if the spouse is just a Joint Owner of an account with the Filer (i.e., the Filer being you) the spouse does not need to submit a separate report per instructions in Part III, Items 25-33, on page 8 of 8, which I quoted earlier. Plus, in Part III of the form you are entering the spouse's name, SSAN, joint bank account info, etc., and then she signs the form along with you. Basically, these instructions are allowing a joint submission very similar to submission of a joint tax return (i.e., one return with info/signatures of both spouses...only one return for both the husband and wife).

I used TurboTax for my 2008 tax return; it walked me through preparation of the form and it prepared the TF form per the instructions mentioned above. Since the wife had no "Separately;Owned" accounts, only joint accounts with me, Turbo Tax did not require a separate TF form for her....it just put her info in Part III of the form. Now, I didn't use TurboTax for my 2009 return (used TaxAct), so I can't speak to what forms TurboTax kicked out in your particular 2009 situation. I expect if you answered any of the TurboTax questions that your spouse had a "Separately Owned" bank account then it would correctly say both of you must file separate TF forms. TaxAct does not complete the TF form for a person; it has to be done the old fashioned way...that is, download the TF form and complete per instructions...but as mentioned, the TF instructions were in sync with how TurboTax 2008 completed by 2008 TF report.

No harm in submitting two TF forms (one for you as the Filer and one for your Spouse), but it's not required if the spouse only has a "Jointly Owned" account(s) with you the Filer. But if she has a "Separately Owned" account(s), then yes, she needs to file a separate form. The Jointly Owned or Separately Owned bank account(s) factor is the deciding factor on whether one or two TF reports must be submitted.

Cheers.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Pib

[Lost in LOS]

i have my thai BB account here in Pattaya, opened in Pattaya. When I transfer from my Ameritrade account in the US, I transfer to the BB in NY and use my account number here and the routing number for the NY BB. Ameritrade has free transfers to any bank in the US, and it is there the same day. BofA doesn't consider BB in NY a local bank and they charge a fee [was okay 4 years ago but they must have decided they could steal some fees with a technicality.

I do all this online with no paperwork or phone calls. Transfer by free wire to BB NY, it happens the same business day, it shows in my BB account the next afternoon with no fees except for some small stuff at BB. I would guess the ACH works there also. Since I get some money into my BofA account, I transfer, online, free by Ach, to Ameritrade, happens immediately, then to BB bank. All free and done in one day.

You just have to check which US banks consider BB in NY a bank in the US. BofA does not so they can scam some fees.

[ianguygil]

Most of the other information provided here is correct. Several of the members have successfully used this service. BBL-NY is a full branch (but the deposits are not insured by the FDIC). Not an "agency office" as the 2 other Thai banks with a US presence.

BBL-NY is on Fedwire (the Fed payments network) and the ACH network, in addition to the SWIFT network but BBL uses one SWIFT code for all branches. It is much more cost effective to direct your bank to use the ACH network for what are after all relatively small payments in banking terms unless same day value is required.

ACH gets the funds from your bank in the USA to BBL-BY (also in the USA obviously).

Then BBL-NY transfers the funds and the sends the payment instruction (who the funds are for, which account etc.) effectively using SWIFTmessage formats, to BBL in Bangkok.

Just to make this a little less confusing, what happens in BBL-NY credits USD funds to a USD account which is "Due To" BBL-BKK. Once the payment instruction arrives in Bangkok the USD are reflected in an account in BKK which is "Due From" BBL-NY (that is why you hear of Due To and Due From accounting, otherwise known as VOSTRO / NOSTRO).

Then BBL in Bangkok determines the FX rate (assuming the payment is not related to an FX-contract which would set the rate). In general, unless a very large amount is involved, this will be the TT rate shown on the BangkokBank.Com website. Then BBL will credit the THB funds to a local account (which is why you need an account) and notify the beneficiary (recipient of the funds).

There is another option which can be used without an account called PUPID (Pay Upon Proper ID) which names the person and provides details of identification credentials such as passport country and number. That is commonly for people traveling without an account.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions or problems and I will see if I can help

Good luck.

Ian

Edited July 4, 2010 by ianguygil

[Jingthing]

Reading the instructions from Bangkok Bank, they mention the requirement of small test deposits to establish the transfer relationship. In reality, for those doing BB ACH transfers to Thailand, have you found that step really happens? If so, when you call for the amounts, do they tell you the amount in USD cents or baht, as I doubt the US banks would be able to verify based on baht amounts.

Please note, there are a number of existing threads about treasury reporting requirements. Happy that everyone is learning they need to pay attention to this, but thanks for getting this thread back to the topic of BB ACH transfers.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Jingthing

[jfchandler]

Jing, the trial deposits thing is normal and no problem...

In my experience with BKKB, yes, the trial deposits do happen, but only once, being the first time you establish the BKKB link with any particular U.S. bank account using the 9-digit ABA number for BKKB-NY, and the recipient account number being your full BKKB Thailand account number (full, because the first part of the account number includes the ID for which Thailand local branch holds your BKKB account, and where your funds get credited to).

Just wait a couple of days after you initiate the link from your U.S. bank's online banking module, and if you have online banking with BKKB, you can wait until you see the two small deposits credited to your BKKB account in baht.

Then call the main BKK Bank customer service number, choose the English menu, and then tell them you want to know the incoming U.S. $ amounts for two recent transfers into your BKK Bank account. They always can answer that straight away. Then take the two amounts they've given you, and plug them back into your U.S. bank's online banking system to verify the ACH link.

From that point on, you can send ACHs to BKKB-New York the same as you would to any other U.S. bank capable of receiving ACHs, and the funds are automatically forwarded onward to your correct local BKKB branch and account in Thailand.

Reading the instructions from Bangkok Bank, they mention the requirement of small test deposits to establish the transfer relationship. In reality, for those doing BB ACH transfers to Thailand, have you found that step really happens? If so, when you call for the amounts, do they tell you the amount in USD cents or baht, as I doubt the US banks would be able to verify based on baht amounts.

Please note, there are a number of existing threads about treasury reporting requirements. Happy that everyone is learning they need to pay attention to this, but thanks for getting this thread back to the topic of BB ACH transfers.

[ianguygil]

I also forgot to mention.

When the funds are received at BBL HO in Bangkok, if you are a Bangkok Bank customer with an account on file, we will send an SMS to inform you of the incoming funds. This is a pretty popular feature for many people who otherwise keep checking Mobile iBanking, iBanking, ATM etc. for the information. So please all ensure you inform the Bank (BBL or any bank you use) if you change your cell phone number as many people do frequently.

Once number portability is avaialble for the mobile providers here you will be able to keep your cell number even when changing from one provider to another. But that has been talked about for years and has never happened

Good luck.

Ian

[Pib]

This SMS notice will give the total foreign currency received---even if just a few pennies--and the exchange rate given. These test deposits incur no Bangkok Bank charge/fee. I have always got the TT Update 1 exchange rate for the day. And when I set up my States-side bank account for ACH transfers to my Bangkok Bank accounts, the test deposits could also be determined by using TT Update 1 for the day the test deposits were received. Simply divide the Update 1 exchange rate into the baht deposited/received due the exchange rate and round to the nearest two digits (i.e., 0.3095 rounds to 0.31) and 31 cents is the amount of test deposit. In my particular case of test deposits, this rounding worked...but I'll admit it's probably saver to confirm the exact amount with Bangkok Bank.

Although my SMS notice told me the amount of pennies sent in the test deposit and gave the exchange rate (which was always Update 1 for the day for me), I could have figured out the test deposit amount sent by only knowing the amount of baht deposited (by getting a passbook update, logging-onto my Bangkok Bank account, or calling Bangkok Bank for the info), then checking the Bangkok Bank web site for the TT Update 1 for the day of deposit, and then doing the math mentioned above.

Now if you are going to call to get the info, you may have to wait approx 3 days until after you figure the test deposit was sent since it may take that long for the deposits to be posted to your account. I found this out from the Bangkok Bank Call Center rep when setting up my PayPal account link to my Bangkok Bank debit card...PayPal does a test "charge" of $1.95 and then you provide confirmation by providing the 4 digit code that came along with/embedded in the transfer title. I ended up only waiting one day to find out the code because the debit posted to my account fast and I could see details of the charge via Bangkok Bank internet banking.

If your States side bank says they are going to do the test deposits (or test debits if linking a credit card or debit card), then they will. And the test deposits flow to Bangkok Bank with no problem and no charge. It works pretty painlessly.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Pib

[JimGant]

Also, per the form instructions, both you and the spouse can/should sign the same form submission for "jointly owned account" information...

Right. Per the form instructions, both the wife and myself signed our single form depicting our "joint" account.

But, as I recall, TurboTax did not highlight this requirement -- and had I solely depended on their guidance, the wife would not have signed the form (with, no damage done, I'm sure).

But, out of curiosity (and a check on my recollection process), did you, Pib and Craig, also have your wives sign your respective 'Joint' TDF90 forms -- and if so, was this because of guidance from TurboTax?

[JimGant]

Here's an added twist (from a thread a few years back) to trial deposits with Bangkok Bank.

Background: I had already set up a transfer link between USAA and BB -- and by stating I did not have "signatory control" over my BB account (not true, but very effective for setting up a transfer link *without* any trial deposits), the link was quickly established.

I wanted to see how the <$1.00 trial transfers would work, so I also set up an account where I said I had 'signatory control,' i.e., both debit and credit control. Here's the first email I got from USAA Federal Savings:

Quote

To help identify you as the owner, we made two temporary deposits to your non-USAA account and one withdrawal for the sum of the two deposits. (Your account balance will not change because of the temporary deposits.)

What happens next

Please complete the following steps within 30 days, or you'll have to repeat this process to enable transfers from this account.

Contact your financial institution to get the amounts of the temporary deposits, which will have the description "TRIALCREDIT."

Go to Manage Accounts on usaa.com and select Enter Temporary Deposits from the drop-down menu beside your account. Verify the temporary deposits by entering the exact amounts.

If the amounts match, the account will be available for funds transfer immediately

Nothing too amazing about that -- pretty much as advertised.

But the next email was interesting:

Quote

Unfortunately, your financial institution [bangkok Bank] notified us that this is a credits-only account -- withdrawals aren't allowed. Based on this information, we've added this account to your funds transfer list for deposits only. Please contact your financial institution if you have questions about the account.

Well, it's not a "credits-only" account -- it's a regular savings account. But Bangkok Bank -- knowing it's 'effectively' a credits-only acct for ACH purposes -- now informs your US bank that money can only be sent one-way. As such, the "TRIALCREDIT" drill is not required to set up this one-way ACH avenue.

At least with banks like USAA, that only require trial deposits for 'credit and debit' accounts (not 'credit only' accounts), no trial deposit should be required. And if one should be sent -- as in the above example -- Bangkok Bank is sufficiently clued-in to deal with it. Or *was* when the above happened a few years back.......

[craigt3365]

I am pretty sure TurboTax had me do 2 forms. One for our joint account, which we both signed. And one for her individual account, which only she signed. We mailed them both off in the same envelope.

I really appreciate the heads up on this from the TV members here!

Craig

[mattcodes]

Does anyone know if this works from the UK, i.e. transfer money to Bangkok Bank - London (with Thai account number)???

Or alternatively friend work across the road from Bangkok Bank in London, maybe cheap/easier to transfer them the money and they pay it in at lunchtime

[JimGant]

Does anyone know if this works from the UK, i.e. transfer money to Bangkok Bank - London (with Thai account number)???

Or alternatively friend work across the road from Bangkok Bank in London, maybe cheap/easier to transfer them the money and they pay it in at lunchtime

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Transfering%20Funds/Transferring%20into%20Thailand/Receiving%20Funds%20from%20UK/Pages/Receiving%20Funds%20from%20UK.aspx

[Pib]

Does anyone know if this works from the UK, i.e. transfer money to Bangkok Bank - London (with Thai account number)???

Or alternatively friend work across the road from Bangkok Bank in London, maybe cheap/easier to transfer them the money and they pay it in at lunchtime

http://www.bangkokba...0from%20UK.aspx

Ouch, expensive, actually just a SWIFT transfer.

[ianguygil]

Actually it is not. It is just like the transfer in the US using ACH. Except in this case it is BACS. So the overall cost is in most cases cheaper than a regular SWIFT transfer. I wrote about how this works a few months ago for the UK and I will try to find that post. But it is using the BBL International network to provide a lower cost option that a regular SWIFT transfer. But right now I need to go so I will do this tomorrow when have time.

Good luck.

[mattcodes]

£15 admin fee. Still seems cheaper than any other route.

What exchange rate do you get on

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Foreign%20Exchange/FX%20Rates/Pages/Default.aspx

Is it the TT rate??

[pkrv]

Yes the UK correspondent Branch of Bangkok Bank does the same - see previous thread

http://www.thaivisa....avings-account/

The short cut to Bangkok Bank's information for the UK is below:

It takes about 1 1/2 weeks for the transfer to complete and fee is actually 20 GBP (UK end for a simple BACS transefer, this is our free local bill payment mechanism) and there is a 500 THB fee at the Thai end BUT you get the Bangkok Bank TT rate, (when the funds arrive) which is quite good (their site is a bit out of date)

http://www.bangkokba...0from%20UK.aspx

Check the top link to see my very recent experiences from a UK perspective. And BTW it appears most Thai banks are now making the additional charges - so the 500 THB, or indeed cash point charges, are becoming unavoidable. IMO It is a question of balancing the two, dependent on your needs

Edited July 7, 2010 by pkrv