Writing As A Skill

[DavidHouston]

Friends,

I would like to ask you educators out there about whether the basic skill levels required for language knowledge has changed over time. We generally think of the four primary language skills as listening comprehension; speaking coherently; reading comprehension; and, writing clearly. I am wondering whether for adult language students of languages with Thai which employ a non-Western script, typing skills should be treated as a more primary skill than manual writing.

Certainly in today's social interaction more written communications are effected through typing than by handwriting -- and its excellence-determiner, penmanship. Why force students to learn handwriting skills when language production can be achieved more easily via keystrokes?

I would like to hear your opinions. Thanks.

[zzaa09]

Through these current times, the statements would have clear validity and a seemingly logical conclusion. But I'm feeling that a foundation of basics needs to be laid down first, so as the comprehension might be diversified towards the perspective student - an old school and romantic notion, perhaps. A hypothetical scenario might suggest that if a modern technological knowhow fails us for whatever reasons, we, naturally would have the foundation to fall back on, secure with the manual tradition. It might lend a comparative to how mathematics are learned and generally approach today, where every common student possesses a electronic device in lieu of devising the problem out with one's own critical comprehension. The danger of becoming vacant of reflective and critical practices becomes overwhelming with convenience. Self-sufficiency and independence are more valuable than the premise of image.

[SoftWater]

I think the previous poster had a good point, and certainly for adult language learners of Thai, handwriting is still quite a useful skill from addressing envelopes to filling out forms, to giving your address in shops for deliveries. My Thai handwriting is as bad as my English handwriting, and never ceases to raise a giggle from those that are forced to suffer it.

It's also worth pointing out that the graphemes of hand-written Thai are not identical to the perfect letters printed in the many kids books for teaching the alphabet - as I learned when my 4-year old son laughed at my perfectly produced but utterly unnatural rendition of the Thai alphabet on our little home whiteboard... Learning to hand-write natural Thai is almost like learning another alphabet in itself. If you don't know the differences, it can also be pretty difficult to read hand-written Thai, which has its own uses, even if you don't have much call to produce it yourself.

That said, I have learned a lot of Thai through interacting with people on the internet, and - particularly when you're using live chat - that can only be done effectively if one has some skill on a Thai keyboard. Not only is it even more painful to tap out Thai words than it is English ones if you can't touch type, but even the most patient of 'penpals' will wander off and do something else if it takes you 5 minutes just to write สวัสดีครับ.

Edited July 30, 2010 by SoftWater

[DavidHouston]

Through these current times, the statements would have clear validity and a seemingly logical conclusion. But I'm feeling that a foundation of basics needs to be laid down first, so as the comprehension might be diversified towards the perspective student - an old school and romantic notion, perhaps. A hypothetical scenario might suggest that if a modern technological knowhow fails us for whatever reasons, we, naturally would have the foundation to fall back on, secure with the manual tradition. It might lend a comparative to how mathematics are learned and generally approach today, where every common student possesses a electronic device in lieu of devising the problem out with one's own critical comprehension. The danger of becoming vacant of reflective and critical practices becomes overwhelming with convenience. Self-sufficiency and independence are more valuable than the premise of image.

Thank you for that reply. I would like to understand more clearly what the meaning of your sentence is: "The danger of becoming vacant of reflective and critical practices becomes overwhelming with convenience. Self-sufficiency and independence are more valuable than the premise of image."

I am not dismissing physical production of Thai script and penmanship from a learning curriculum; what I am proposing is that the order of learning can be switched from the four critical arenas to the four less critical arenas. I noted the for critical areas above. Without moving writing to a latter portion, the four ancillary areas are, "typing", "translation", "poetry", and "humor". Physical production of the written word is important, but I feel that foreign students would accelerate their learning experience more quickly if they learn to type early in their learning process.

Thanks again for your response and your thoughts.

[bhoydy]

Interesting topic David,

I think without a doubt that as technology is progressing at the speed it is, its importance will also increase. I don't think that handwriting as a form of education will die out. As the poster mentioned earlier it's way too important for us to rely on something as unpredictable as computers. By that i mean, we have to preserve it to make sure we can educate for future generations. At the same time, people's ability to type has many advantages. Chatting online was one of the ways which really improved my Thai when i first managed to be able to spell some words. It can be gruelling learning where all the letters are on the keyboard, and the less common ones sometimes have me scouring the keyboard for ages when i'm online. It takes time, but i think it's worth it.

It's an interesting point you make about adult learners of Thai, who are not native. I think this would benefit them in the short term but would leave them unable to read or write anything other than computer Thai. This ability is important for inter-action in Thailand as a foreigner on a day to day basis.

[kriswillems]

I think foreign students should start with learning to read and understand why things are written that way.

Hand-writing and typing are just "mechanical" skills (i.e. not directly related to the language). I think nowadays both handwriting and typing are equally important.

In my opinion, In a classroom a simple notebook and pen are more easy to use than a computer. So, it seems logical that foreigners learn to handwrite Thai in Thai language classes. It would be nice if typing classes would be offered as an advanced module in the Thai language schools.

Edited July 30, 2010 by kriswillems

[DavidHouston]

Wow! I am very surprised that folks are still so romantically wedded to such archaic forms of communications. As the sticks and clay of cuneiform writing gave way to chisel and stone; quill and ink; steel nibs; graphite pencils; and, ball point pens, so the keyboard will give way to high-quality dictation software. When I was a kid in school, our desks had Bakelite inkwells and we practised Reinhardt penmanship with a quaint steel nib, despite the existence of the newly-invented ballpoint pens. That stuff is just so twentieth-century! (As an aside see David Pogue's recent New York Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/29/technology/personaltech/29pogue.html?_r=1&ref=technology on the latest version of Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Someday, perhaps, Dragon will be available for Thai.)

I am by no means arguing that the keyboard is the end-all device, but it is the most common device in use today, be it the computer or laptop traditional keyboard or the button-less keyboards of the iphone and ipads. The ubiquitous TalkingDict have Thai keyboards, although somewhat non-standard.

Most of us who type Western languages have made the mental transition of "eye to finger" typing, without even thinking about which keys are imprinted with which upper-case or lower-case letters and symbols. Learning to type Thai should piggyback on one's already developed skills in typing one's native language. It seems to me that the battle to learn to type Thai is half won because our fingers already "do the walking"; they only task remaining is to mentally associate finger movement with consonant, vowel, and tone mark location on the keyboard. And, if one is already a "touch typist" a real Thai keyboard is not at all necessary. The virtual Thai keyboard available in newer versions of Windows is sufficient during the learning phase.

I sure wish Thai language schools would include typing in their curricula. Learners of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your #2 pencils!

[SoftWater]

When I was a kid in school, our desks had Bakelite inkwells and we practised Reinhardt penmanship with a quaint steel nib, despite the existence of the newly-invented ballpoint pens.

Well, the mouse click has already been made a thing of the past on my MacBook Pro. All operations, including dragging and dropping, can now be done with finger taps and swipes on the trackpad. You don't even need to click the trackpad since the latest software update. So, sure, technology makes itself redundant after time.

However, hand-writing, typing and dictation are different modes for achieving the same result. They are not wholly co-extensive. Writing can be done more discretely than dictating in some situations (if you don't want others to overhear you, for example), and hand-writing has the primary 'affordance' (just to throw a bit of technical jargon in), just like paper books, of needing no external power source and being more robust in adverse conditions. The pen is also extremely light, compact, and works on multiple surfaces. Both the pen and the material you write on are also 'future-proof' against upgrades, not platform-specific, totally backwards-compatible with all writing surfaces going back to papyrus, and do not require an annual subscription to be used.

Still, I'm sure David's right if only because there could be more money in it, but I worry whether we will hear complaints like these in the future:

"My iPhone battery is dead, I can't write a word!"

"I didn't mean to sign that document, I pressed the wrong key."

"The rescue workers failed to spot the crash victims because they didn't know how to write 'HELP' in the sand."

Edited July 31, 2010 by SoftWater

[DavidHouston]

While Softwater's tongue is firmly implanted in his cheek, I am not arguing for the obsolescence of handwriting; rather, I am just questioning the order of learning. Foreign students may be spending way too much time early on in their studies learning ขัดลายมือ, rather than on needed communications skills. Well, I, like the proverbial lady, am protesting too much.

Writing is here to stay.

[kokesaat]

I spent nearly my entire 26 years in the Air Force using computers.....for everything! The last 5 or so years, I did all my note taking on a lap top. At some point in that time, I began to realize that my handwriting skills had gone downhill, and when a computer wasn't available, my hand cramped up or I took bizarre shortcuts in my handwriting to lessen the pain of 'writing'.

I practice writing Thai as a way to reinforce my reading/speaking......when I am writing I am often mentally reviewing tone rules, or consonant cluster rules, etc.

I seem to remember arguments long ago that the calculator was going to negate the need to learn math basics. Unless something has changed in school back in the US, I don't believe this to be the case. I'd guess the same arguments can be made for writing skills......but at this point in our lives, I don't think we're ready to give up the #2.

[rch1023]

Through these current times, the statements would have clear validity and a seemingly logical conclusion. But I'm feeling that a foundation of basics needs to be laid down first, so as the comprehension might be diversified towards the perspective student - an old school and romantic notion, perhaps. A hypothetical scenario might suggest that if a modern technological knowhow fails us for whatever reasons, we, naturally would have the foundation to fall back on, secure with the manual tradition. It might lend a comparative to how mathematics are learned and generally approach today, where every common student possesses a electronic device in lieu of devising the problem out with one's own critical comprehension. The danger of becoming vacant of reflective and critical practices becomes overwhelming with convenience. Self-sufficiency and independence are more valuable than the premise of image.

Too many words, Sir, and long ones too. My enunciation of Thai leaves much to be desired, and so, perforce, I write to communicate. I read Thai script with interest. As usual in UK, the script bears little relation to the printed word, or letter. I hear of a study of Thai script, out of Chula, but cannot find a copy. I would be most interested in a copy.

For the children, we have the promise of speech to text (promised for English these many years), which will make writing redundant. Meanwhile, they write tiny letters on scraps of paper. Was paper expensive in recent times? I plead the bad eyesight of age (65), but get little improvement from them.

Yes. They must all learn to write legibly; learn to add, subtract, multiply, and sometimes divide, small numbers.

- Roger -