Many Thai Red Shirts Abandoned By Their Leaders: Human Rights Activist

[phiphidon]

Hopefully, the mentally ill Reds will get help once they are released.

More likely that the garbage collectors, homeless and mentally ill were just caught up in the SOE roundups that took place and are nothing to do with the redshirts. Still don't let that get in the way of an unsubstantiated claim.

There have been several people in jail who say they were "just caught up in the SOE". Some of them said they had been going to the rallies, but (conveniently) not at the time they were caught. One was "directing traffic" and another had been there to "convince his brother to go home".

I don't dispute that. I was answering Bucholzs comments about "mentally ill reds" whereas the two terms, mentally ill and red shirts, are not linked that way in the report - that was purely Bucholzs take on it and one that I thought deserved a reasonable rebuttal.

[rubl]

Hopefully, the mentally ill Reds will get help once they are released.

More likely that the garbage collectors, homeless and mentally ill were just caught up in the SOE roundups that took place and are nothing to do with the redshirts. Still don't let that get in the way of an unsubstantiated claim.

There have been several people in jail who say they were "just caught up in the SOE". Some of them said they had been going to the rallies, but (conveniently) not at the time they were caught. One was "directing traffic" and another had been there to "convince his brother to go home".

I don't dispute that. I was answering Bucholzs comments about "mentally ill reds" whereas the two terms, mentally ill and red shirts, are not linked that way in the report - that was purely Bucholzs take on it and one that I thought deserved a reasonable rebuttal.

From the newsflash buchholz was quoting from:

"Most of the red-shirt supporters in jail are garbage collectors, homeless people, and the mentally ill who cannot seek legal help or find enough money for bail. The People�s Centre for Information (PCI) revealed its initial investigation on the April-May crackdowns yesterday."

red-shirts and mentally ill ARE linked, but not as mentally ill reds. Next we will start complaining about the proper, use of commas

(PS as mentioned before, interesting mix of reds mentioned)

Edited November 20, 2010 by rubl

[Buchholz]

Hopefully, the mentally ill Reds will get help once they are released.

More likely that the garbage collectors, homeless and mentally ill were just caught up in the SOE roundups that took place and are nothing to do with the redshirts. Still don't let that get in the way of an unsubstantiated claim.

Take up your apologizing gripe with The People’s Centre for Information (PCI). They are the ones calling them Red AND mentally ill.

Most of the red-shirt supporters in jail are garbage collectors, homeless people, and the mentally ill who cannot seek legal help or find enough money for bail. The People’s Centre for Information (PCI)

[Buchholz]

The People�s

Next we will start complaining about the proper, use of commas

now that you mention it, what give's with � above?

[Buchholz]

Hopefully, the mentally ill Reds will get help once they are released.

More likely that the garbage collectors, homeless and mentally ill were just caught up in the SOE roundups that took place and are nothing to do with the redshirts. Still don't let that get in the way of an unsubstantiated claim.

There have been several people in jail who say they were "just caught up in the SOE". Some of them said they had been going to the rallies, but (conveniently) not at the time they were caught. One was "directing traffic" and another had been there to "convince his brother to go home".

I don't dispute that. I was answering Bucholzs comments about "mentally ill reds" whereas the two terms, mentally ill and red shirts, are not linked that way in the report - that was purely Bucholzs take on it and one that I thought deserved a reasonable rebuttal.

If there are Reds... and there are Reds with mental illness, explain why mentally ill Reds is an incongruency?

[phiphidon]

Hopefully, the mentally ill Reds will get help once they are released.

More likely that the garbage collectors, homeless and mentally ill were just caught up in the SOE roundups that took place and are nothing to do with the redshirts. Still don't let that get in the way of an unsubstantiated claim.

Take up your apologizing gripe with The People's Centre for Information (PCI). They are the ones calling them Red AND mentally ill.

Most of the red-shirt supporters in jail are garbage collectors, homeless people, and the mentally ill who cannot seek legal help or find enough money for bail. The People's Centre for Information (PCI)

Its the usual Nation reporting there is also the line "PCI discovered that most of the detained red shirts could not find lawyers or enough money for bail. Most of the detainees are garbage collectors, homeless people, and people with mental health problems"

But it's not worth the discussion, you have your mind set. I don't think I will take my "apologizing gripe"? up with PCI, I'll just put it down to the usual high standards of the Nation, to many a source of substance.

[Buchholz]

Its the usual Nation reporting there is also the line "PCI discovered that most of the detained red shirts could not find lawyers or enough money for bail. Most of the detainees are garbage collectors, homeless people, and people with mental health problems"

But it's not worth the discussion, you have your mind set. I don't think I will take my "apologizing gripe"? up with PCI, I'll just put it down to the usual high standards of the Nation, to many a source of substance.

Do you have contradictory evidence to The Nation's article?

Are you disputing that the PCI said what The Nation said they said?

I can understand it runs counter to your own perception of the Reds, but without something to dispute their article, it rings rather hollow.

[rubl]

The People�s

Next we will start complaining about the proper, use of commas

now that you mention it, what give's with � above?

Sorry to say I copied that from you quoting a newsflash. In this case � should probably be ' or ’

Consider this your first, official warning

[Buchholz]

�s

�

� ’

It's getting worse, so I'll stop.

[Buchholz]

Anyway, back to the topic, has there been any word from the Red Leaders about helping out their fellow Reds?

Most of the red-shirt supporters in jail are garbage collectors, homeless people, and the mentally ill who cannot seek legal help or find enough money for bail. The People's Centre for Information (PCI)

Were there any offers from them regarding legal assistance, bail funding, job assistance, vocational training, housing, or mental health care being discussed at their rally yesterday?

[rubl]

Anyway, back to the topic, has there been any word from the Red Leaders about helping out their fellow Reds?

Most of the red-shirt supporters in jail are garbage collectors, homeless people, and the mentally ill who cannot seek legal help or find enough money for bail. The People's Centre for Information (PCI)

Were there any offers from them regarding legal assistance, bail funding, job assistance, vocational training, housing, or mental health care being discussed at their rally yesterday?

Not that I've heard. It's a stupid question anyway. Obviously it's the current government's fault and k. Suthep should report to the DSI once more

[philw]

Hopefully, the mentally ill Reds will get help once they are released.

More likely that the garbage collectors, homeless and mentally ill were just caught up in the SOE roundups that took place and are nothing to do with the redshirts. Still don't let that get in the way of an unsubstantiated claim.

There have been several people in jail who say they were "just caught up in the SOE". Some of them said they had been going to the rallies, but (conveniently) not at the time they were caught. One was "directing traffic" and another had been there to "convince his brother to go home".

I don't dispute that. I was answering Bucholzs comments about "mentally ill reds" whereas the two terms, mentally ill and red shirts, are not linked that way in the report - that was purely Bucholzs take on it and one that I thought deserved a reasonable rebuttal.

Very fair comment PPD,

[Buchholz]

I don't dispute that. I was answering Bucholzs comments about "mentally ill reds" whereas the two terms, mentally ill and red shirts, are not linked that way in the report - that was purely Bucholzs take on it and one that I thought deserved a reasonable rebuttal.

Very fair comment PPD,

Perhaps you could explain then as per Post #95.

[phiphidon]

I don't dispute that. I was answering Bucholzs comments about "mentally ill reds" whereas the two terms, mentally ill and red shirts, are not linked that way in the report - that was purely Bucholzs take on it and one that I thought deserved a reasonable rebuttal.

Very fair comment PPD,

Perhaps you could explain then as per Post #95.

As I have said before it's down to the Nations reporting. The headline is about red shirts being too poor to pay bail. The Nation then leads into the report by saying;

Most of the red-shirt supporters in jail are garbage collectors, homeless people and the mentally ill who cannot seek legal help or find enough money forbail. The People's Centre for Information (PCI) revealed its initial investigation on the April-May crackdowns yesterday.

They then explain that the the PCI collected information about 169 red shirt protestors in 7 provinces.

The sentence directly attributed as coming from the PCI report (and not the Nations lead in) states;

PCI discovered that most of the detained red shirts could not find lawyers or enough money for bail.

Then there is the next sentence;

Most of the detainees are garbage collectors, homeless people and people with mental health problems.

and goes on to say;

Some of the detainees were coerced into confessing to crimes of arson or terrorism, while some were told to pay more than Bt1 million in bail.

It is possible to assume that the garbage collectors, homeless people and people with mental health problems were hard core red shirt supporters (after all they were arrested and charged weren't they - see coercion above) as per Bucholzs view.

It is also quite reasonable to assume the opposite was the case and that they were just caught up in the SOE "crackdown" (see coercion above).

Our view of events differ. Discussion relies on differing views. It would help to find the original source material i.e the PCI report, but try as I might the only mention of this report is in the Nation. If anybody else can find it please provide a link.

In the meantime we'll have to rely on the Nation.................

[Robby nz]

I keep wondering who the faceless elites are that the red supporters on this forum keep refering to.

Been thinking about it and it seems they would need some qualifications.

For a start they would have to be rich, possible even the richest in and out of the country and want to get even richer by any means.

They would have to have some political affiliations, possible even own and fund a political party.

Some, probably more than one would have to have political experience, even as PM.

They would need aspirations, even delusions of power and would be willing to fund anyone or anything to achieve that power including killings, burnings, bombings and riots.

And of course stay in the background well away from any trouble.

I think I have it now.

The ones that fit all the above would have to be the Shinawatra family.

Yes they must be the elite of this country that keeps getting refered to.

But isnt it a pity the "elite" Shinawatra famly couldnt have helped those who fought for them.

I guess they could see no profit in bailing them out or even getting them legal representation.

[scorecard]

I keep wondering who the faceless elites are that the red supporters on this forum keep refering to.

Been thinking about it and it seems they would need some qualifications.

For a start they would have to be rich, possible even the richest in and out of the country and want to get even richer by any means.

They would have to have some political affiliations, possible even own and fund a political party.

Some, probably more than one would have to have political experience, even as PM.

They would need aspirations, even delusions of power and would be willing to fund anyone or anything to achieve that power including killings, burnings, bombings and riots.

And of course stay in the background well away from any trouble.

I think I have it now.

The ones that fit all the above would have to be the Shinawatra family.

Yes they must be the elite of this country that keeps getting refered to.

But isnt it a pity the "elite" Shinawatra famly couldnt have helped those who fought for them.

I guess they could see no profit in bailing them out or even getting them legal representation.

well said, and perhaps add fled out of the country on several occasions, em masse, just before the riots they funded happened.

[Pi Sek]

I keep wondering who the faceless elites are that the red supporters on this forum keep refering to.

Been thinking about it and it seems they would need some qualifications.

For a start they would have to be rich, possible even the richest in and out of the country and want to get even richer by any means.

They would have to have some political affiliations, possible even own and fund a political party.

Some, probably more than one would have to have political experience, even as PM.

They would need aspirations, even delusions of power and would be willing to fund anyone or anything to achieve that power including killings, burnings, bombings and riots.

And of course stay in the background well away from any trouble.

I think I have it now.

The ones that fit all the above would have to be the Shinawatra family.

Yes they must be the elite of this country that keeps getting refered to.

But isnt it a pity the "elite" Shinawatra famly couldnt have helped those who fought for them.

I guess they could see no profit in bailing them out or even getting them legal representation.

well said, and perhaps add fled out of the country on several occasions, em masse, just before the riots they funded happened.

Robby nz's post would be funny if it wasn't true. Or is it funny because it's true. Excellent post, nonetheless - but why can't red shirt supporters open their eyes to the obvious? They are fighting for the person that epitomises what they're fighting against!

[Pi Sek]

Some of the detainees were coerced into confessing to crimes of arson or terrorism, while some were told to pay more than Bt1 million in bail.

Really? Where did you find that?

Coercion of confession is obviously way out of line. I don't doubt that it happens, but is it on record? And from whom?

Edited November 22, 2010 by Pi Sek

[Insight]

I keep wondering who the faceless elites are that the red supporters on this forum keep refering to.

Been thinking about it and it seems they would need some qualifications.

For a start they would have to be rich, possible even the richest in and out of the country and want to get even richer by any means.

They would have to have some political affiliations, possible even own and fund a political party.

Some, probably more than one would have to have political experience, even as PM.

They would need aspirations, even delusions of power and would be willing to fund anyone or anything to achieve that power including killings, burnings, bombings and riots.

And of course stay in the background well away from any trouble.

I think I have it now.

The ones that fit all the above would have to be the Shinawatra family.

Yes they must be the elite of this country that keeps getting refered to.

But isnt it a pity the "elite" Shinawatra famly couldnt have helped those who fought for them.

I guess they could see no profit in bailing them out or even getting them legal representation.

well said, and perhaps add fled out of the country on several occasions, em masse, just before the riots they funded happened.

Robby nz's post would be funny if it wasn't true. Or is it funny because it's true. Excellent post, nonetheless - but why can't red shirt supporters open their eyes to the obvious? They are fighting for the person that epitomises what they're fighting against!

Because it's not in the job description.

[phiphidon]

<br />

<br />Some of the detainees were <u>coerced into confessing to crimes of arson or terrorism</u>, while some were told to pay more than Bt1 million in bail.

<br /><br />Really? Where did you find that?<br />Coercion of confession is obviously <b>way</b> out of line. I don't doubt that it happens, but is it on record? And from whom?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Well, actually I read it in the the Nations article about the PCI report.

[Pi Sek]

Some of the detainees were <u>coerced into confessing to crimes of arson or terrorism</u>, while some were told to pay more than Bt1 million in bail.

Really? Where did you find that?<br />Coercion of confession is obviously <b>way</b> out of line. I don't doubt that it happens, but is it on record? And from whom?<br />

Well, actually I read it in the the Nations article about the PCI report.

Well, that's disgraceful - I hope the national reconciliation committee are going to take a look. There's enough evidence without resorting to that but, even if there wasn't, it's still out of line.

Found the article now... it even mentions "torture" a little further down from where you are referring.

Not trying to discredit it or anything, but who exactly are the People’s Centre for Information (PCI)?

[Buchholz]

The Justice Ministry has approved requests to provide bail money for four additional Red Shirts being held in confinement.

In Bangkok, the Ministry provide 60,000 baht each for bail of two men charged with violating the emergency decree, while in Chiang Mai, one man charged with arson and destroying public property will be provided with 500,000 baht for bail and another charged with destroying public offices and violating the emergency decree will also be provided with a half million baht bail money.

The courts will decide whether to release these men on bail. Earlier, the Ministry had approved bail money for 11 Red Shirts, but the court approved bail for only three of them.

As per the the thread title, there's no word on any bail money or support from the Red Shirt Leaders being afforded to any of those Red Shirt members charged.

.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Buchholz

[phiphidon]

Some of the detainees were <u>coerced into confessing to crimes of arson or terrorism</u>, while some were told to pay more than Bt1 million in bail.

Really? Where did you find that?<br />Coercion of confession is obviously <b>way</b> out of line. I don't doubt that it happens, but is it on record? And from whom?<br />

Well, actually I read it in the the Nations article about the PCI report.

Well, that's disgraceful - I hope the national reconciliation committee are going to take a look. There's enough evidence without resorting to that but, even if there wasn't, it's still out of line.

Found the article now... it even mentions "torture" a little further down from where you are referring.

Not trying to discredit it or anything, but who exactly are the People's Centre for Information (PCI)?

Well that's part of the problem. Despite quite a bit of digging I could not find the original report or much info about the PCI for that matter. There are references to a public meeting they held on the 28th September to gather info from eyewitnesses and families of the dead involved in the April/May crackdown, but that's all I could find.

[hammered]

The Justice Ministry has approved requests to provide bail money for four additional Red Shirts being held in confinement.

In Bangkok, the Ministry provide 60,000 baht each for bail of two men charged with violating the emergency decree, while in Chiang Mai, one man charged with arson and destroying public property will be provided with 500,000 baht for bail and another charged with destroying public offices and violating the emergency decree will also be provided with a half million baht bail money.

The courts will decide whether to release these men on bail. Earlier, the Ministry had approved bail money for 11 Red Shirts, but the court approved bail for only three of them.

As per the the thread title, there's no word on any bail money or support from the Red Shirt Leaders being afforded to any of those Red Shirt members charged.

.

Realpolitik dictates that it is better to have a bunch of banged up "martyrs" that you can use in PR than to have a bunch of dudes on bail.

[Buchholz]

The Justice Ministry has approved requests to provide bail money for four additional Red Shirts being held in confinement.

In Bangkok, the Ministry provide 60,000 baht each for bail of two men charged with violating the emergency decree, while in Chiang Mai, one man charged with arson and destroying public property will be provided with 500,000 baht for bail and another charged with destroying public offices and violating the emergency decree will also be provided with a half million baht bail money.

The courts will decide whether to release these men on bail. Earlier, the Ministry had approved bail money for 11 Red Shirts, but the court approved bail for only three of them.

As per the the thread title, there's no word on any bail money or support from the Red Shirt Leaders being afforded to any of those Red Shirt members charged.

Realpolitik dictates that it is better to have a bunch of banged up "martyrs" that you can use in PR than to have a bunch of dudes on bail.

There's word finally now from a Red Shirt Leader in support of Red Shirt members currently incarcerated.

Red News, Red Power, Voice of Taksin magazine editor Somyos Plueksakasemsuk submitted a open letter today to Deputy Prime Minister Sanan calling for the release of detained Red Shirts within 10 days (before December 5).

Now with that, I'm sure the Red Shirt members feel the dedication to them from their leadership and are much appreciative of the Leaders' exhaustive and determined effort that writing a letter entails as well the selfless and altruistic expenditure of Red Shirt Leaders' huge funding to aid in their plight that buying several liters of benzene necessary for the drive over to Sanan's office involves.

.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

To their credit, some rank and file Reds are trying to help their fellow Reds, but one can't help but wonder how much more effective that assistance could be if it were to come from the millionaire Reds :

Red-Shirt Bicycle Caravan Arrives in Udon Thani Province

The weekly red-shirt bicycle caravan has arrived in Udon Thani province. The group's members plan to visit the jailed protesters before rallying for their release.

Kamolsilp Singhasuriya, leader of the red-shirt group in Udon Thani province, and Suriya Shinboot, leader of the red-shirt bicycle caravan and its 50 members, have arrived at Udon Thani Provincial Prison to visit the protesters jailed for their crimes during the previous political unrest.

They have donated 1,500 baht to each of the 25 families of their jailed comrades.

The group also plans to organize some activities tomorrow, including a bicycle ride around town and a rally in front of Udon Thani Provincial Town Hall to question the government about the investigation of the red-shirt protesters killed during the unrest. In the evening, the group will organize a political concert at a local sports field.

-- Tan Network 2010-11-26

[siampolee]

Possibly, and one can but only hope that at last the rank and file members of the Red Shirt movement are coming to their senses thus realising they were, and still are but pawns in the game of, " Get my ill gotten gains back and return me to power so as I can continue to plunder the country, " by Thaksin and his family and their toadying reprehensible acolytes.

Edited November 26, 2010 by siampolee

[Buchholz]

Many red shirts 'abandoned' by their leaders: human rights activist

-- The Nation 2010-08-08

And a mere 4+ months later, signs of the abandonment by the Red Leaders is at last, subsiding...

PM meets red leaders discussing bail assistance

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Thursday had an unscheduled meeting with two red-shirt leaders at a hotel in Lak Si, dicussing the government's bail assistance for protesters and organisers under remand.

Red-shirt leaders Thida Thawornseth and Veera Musigapong sought and received the meeting with the prime minister who was officiating a seminar opening at the hotel.

After the talks, Thida, who is the wife of remanded red leader weng Tojirakarn, said she told the prime minister about her support for the Justice Ministry to intervene and assist remanded red shirts to apply for temporary release.

"I agree with the bail assistance because I see no other options to secure the release," she said.

She said the red shirts would carry on organising rallies and at the same time, abide by the law.

She said the prime minister thanked her for ensuring peace at recent protests in the wake of the violence in April and May.

Abhisit's security aide Panithan Wattanayagorn said the talks went well and that the government and the red shirts shared the same objective to bring about the return of normalcy in society.

-- The Nation 2010-12-16

[hanuman1]

Nice to see she is intending to abide by the law. With the peaceful protests we've had over the last 6 months it looks like (hopefully) the violent elements of the group must have been caught.

[Buchholz]

Unfortunately, quite a few of the violent elements of the Reds are still on the lam with fresh warrants issued on them.

Arrest Warrants Sought for 11 Red-shirt Hardliners

The Department of Special Investigation has asked the Criminal Court to issue arrest warrants for 11 red-shirt hardliners wanted on terrorism charges

-- Tan Network 2010-12-16

Hopefully, the Interim Red Shirt President Thida and Red Shirt Leader Veera are cooperating with authorities to assist in their apprehension with any knowledge they have on them as well as ensuring that the newly peaceful Reds are not providing any funding or assistance to these fugitives to aid them in their flight from justice.

.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Buchholz