Standards

[GuestHouse]

This might be a bit of tricky subject, especially for the Brits here, but I've been observing and thinking about 'Standards' this past few weeks.

This started about a month ago when we were invited out for dinner with friends, four couples, ourselves and two couples we already new and one couple who we were to meet on the night.

The meal was at one of the better restaurants in the area, certainly place that would be reserved for a special night out. We were all the guests of one of the couples (who we already new) that is they had put out the invite and were kindly paying the bill.

Now all the women made an splendid effort and were turned out beautifully, an obvious effort on dress, hair, make-up.

All but the one man who I was to meet for the fist time at the dinner had also made an effort, two of us were wearing suits, the other a jacket, all three clean shaven, wearing pressed shirts and polished shoes.

The 'new guy' turned up in jeans, a T-shirt that was that peculiar grey colour that comes with washing all you clothes in one batch, regardless of colour, unshaven and wearing flip flops.

Talking to this guy it was clear that in his past life back in the UK he had worked in a professional job, he presumably would not have dressed the way he was back in the UK under similar circumstances of an invite to dinner as guests of friends and yet he clearly thought this quite normal here in Thailand.

Looking around after this I've noticed quite a distinct difference in the dress and 'turn-out' of expats in Thailand, some clearly make and effort to keep up standards they will have lived with all their lives, while others have seemingly gone smashing through the bamboo curtain.

My other observation is that Thais themselves would, like the women on this occasion, make and effort to be turned out smartly under the circumstances of being invited as a guest to an up market restaurant.

So it's not that our fellow diner can really claim that he's gone 'Thai style', I firmly believe 'Thai style' would be to turn out looking smart.

It seems then that some people keep up standards, while others let them slip completely.

[dumball]

Well GuestHouse , you certainly make a good point in your poignant post , I noticed many expats tend to let things slide somewhat when they are out and about , applies to both Thailand and Cambodia . The wife and I would not dream of walking the streets in any way other than smartly attired , my shoes , which I always wear as I like to take care of my feet , are kept polished , much to the disdain of the local 'Shoe-shine' boys . It is not realy any more difficult to dress neatly than to parade ones self as a down and out .

[Ulysses G.]

My guess is that most people dress the way that they would have at home, if they were not out to further their careers or impress anybody. I worked in a very well known luxury hotel at one time and we all commented on what "slobs" most movie stars and super rich were compared to middle class businesspeople. Most of the "elite", that had already made it, dressed any way that made them feel comfortable.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[lovelomsak]

At my yacht club the richest guys are always dressing down to fit in. They also use it as a social game to see how they are treated by strangers. They like to see if their personality wins them friends without notice of their wealth. This is just a suggestion donot worry about how the person dresses but how they behave and treat others. Social manner is way more important than what we wear.

[Chonburiram]

...This started about a month ago when we were invited out for dinner with friends...

Dinner with friends= casual wear/appearance

Funeral= shaven/ black suit/closed shoes

...The meal was at one of the better restaurants in the area, certainly place that would be reserved for a special night out...

Maybe he is just a regular at your " Special place " ?

Now that's the best part:

Now all the women made an splendid effort and were turned out beautifully, an obvious effort on dress, hair, make-up.

You sound quite superficial.

[mrtoad]

It's not what you wear, it's what's inside. Know plenty of people who are extremely successful, would probably be classed as "Elite" that don't give two shits to what they wear, regardless of where they go. As for "upsetting Brits", not really - this is obviously something to do with the OP's continued fascination with Brits.

[tombkk]

At my yacht club the richest guys are always dressing down to fit in. They also use it as a social game to see how they are treated by strangers. They like to see if their personality wins them friends without notice of their wealth. This is just a suggestion donot worry about how the person dresses but how they behave and treat others. Social manner is way more important than what we wear.

That's also my experience. People who have "made it" no longer care about appearance and brand names. However, sometimes I wonder whether the people who wear jeans are really in that class. Or whether they just don't know class. It is indeed often difficult to say.

Coming back to the OP, if everybody wears a suit, the newcomer should have worn one too if he wanted to fit in. Maybe he didn't want to, but maybe he just didn't know any better.

Point-in-case: When I handled my first rock concert, I wore a necktie - my contractor, when he arrived in Thailand, immediately advised me to take it off . I hadn't known any better. It's the exact opposite of the OP's case, and I believe that's why it makes my point clear.

[bonobo]

On the other hand, I do notice Thais often "slumming" in appearances.  I have one friend who continually goes to the best restaurants in Bangkok in a white t-shirt.  

I took someone to a rather upscale restaurant the Friday before last, and when I saw what she had on, I asked if she might want to change into something a little classier, which she did.  However, when we got to the restaurant, I was surprised to see most of the Thais were in t-shirts and the like.  It seemed like the only people who had dressed up were elderly ladies or young women in the company of rather older men (their fathers, I am sure.) 

If I had shown up in a dingy t-shirt and the rest of the men had on jackets or suits, I would have felt uncomfortable.  But one nice thing about THailand is that like most of California, and certainly Hawaii, people feel free to wear whatever suits them.  And some foreigners who come here eagerly embrace that attitude.

[jackr]

Reckon the op 'n friends were well overdressed for this clime - whistle 'n flute indeed, slacks 'n smart polo shirt is fine - although new boy could have made the effort, eh what what. On the other hand, always found it odd folk dressing up for the regard of others. As long as you look presentable, who gives a smeg.

[Loz]

By my late twenties I was also aware that "power dressing" is really usually jeans and tee shirt. Why? because when nobody owns your time, you can within reason dress how you like. I agree its usually when you are employed that you let other people dictate what you wear, along with where you live, what time you go to bed, what time you get up and other freedoms that only the wealthy generally enjoy. By wealthy I mean people with enough money to own their own time.

HOWEVER:

Dressing "to make other people comfortalbe" is a modest consideration that should not be lost in the desire to show just how free you are. It's a bigger man (or woman) that dresses considerately. Its also bigger not to judge in the first place though.

For the record, I left my cravats at home. And when I used to hear people at the marina scoffing at the timerity of some "heathen" boarding their vessel in regular shoes or some other minor infraction, I found it was generally people who had financed their modest vessels through a friend who made a killing in the industry in which the Jones's were always leading by paying cash.

As Thoreau put it:

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.

[Ulysses G.]

For the record, I left my cravats at home.

Now that may be taking things too far!

[92302]

two of us were wearing suits

Where was your suit tailored, Savile Row London or Patels in Pattaya?

Edited August 24, 2010 by 92302

[CWMcMurray]

Guesthouse...

You advised that one of the other couples were the ones to "put out the invite" and that this "new couple"had never been out with you all before.

Any chance that they were not advised about the expected "dress code", I would guess that if you invite him to a similar dinner engagement, he will either dress the same as everyone or may just come up with an excuse not to go out.

Also, do you know what he does for a living? or is he retired? If he retired and moved to Thailand, it is entirely possible that he doesn't even own a suit any more...

[Dakhar]

Man oh man, this dinner crowd sounds a bit "stuffy" for my likes.

[taninthai]

this must have been in bangkok surely,

i dont think i have seen any one wearing a suit and shoes in my travels around thailand,but then i have not spent much time in bangkok.

smart jeans and a polo surely good enough in thailand ,i think i would have a little laugh to my self if i see a group of ferang wearing suits ........

[StreetCowboy]

two of us were wearing suits

Where was your suit tailored, Savile Row London or Patels in Pattaya?

He got it for his birthday

SC

[likewise]

Clothes do not make the man !

Cool pair of jeans with a clean polo shirt is plenty in a tropical climate.

A suit lol, no thanks. Maybe, if it is a real formal occasion.

Edited August 24, 2010 by likewise

[taninthai]

Clothes do not make the man !

Cool pair of jeans with a clean polo shirt is plenty in a tropical climate.

A suit lol, no thanks. Maybe, if it is a real formal occasion.

exactly

suits weddings and funerals only

who brings shiny shoes to thailand ...............

[billd766]

A long time ago in the military I had to wear a uniform complete with a tie for 25 years.

I left and working in a couple of engineering jobs where dress was casual and then I moved to another engineering company where we "expected" to wear a tie in case we met a customer.

I asked if wearing a tie made me a better engineer and got a stuffy reply.

The company refused to buy us ties and most of us bought the loudest ties we could find and after the Monday morning meetings we all got into our cars, took off the ties and threw them into the back of the car.

Now I am retired I wear what I feel comfortable in.

For a dinner with friends I would wear casual trousers, a reasonable shirt, NO TIE and sandals with no socks.

I threw my last suit away years ago and I don't think I have any shoes that fit other than a pair of trainers.

I am me, warts and all and you take me as you find me.

If it is more important how I am dressed rather than who I am I am not sure if I would want to go out to that sort of dinner.

[bkkjames]

Sorry about that GH  -  I thought is was a dumb casual evening - next time please be more specific. Anyways, i thought by going as a bum, you could gain more face - apparently that backfired. 

[Soutpeel]

GH....may be your just being a snob mate..... ....couldnt resist

Remember years ago in Hong Kong, got talking to a scruffy little Chinese guy who was fishing with a hand line, flip flops, dirty old pair of shorts and dirty old T-shirt, (looked very similarly dressed to certain resident farangs in Thailand, minus the big buddha medallion)

Finished the conversation and the guy stuck his hand up in the air, and around the corner came a virtually brand new Rolls with the fully kitted out driver...it was his motor... apparantly this guy was a multi-millionare a few times over...

"Clothes do not the man make"....

[IanForbes]

Guesthouse...

You advised that one of the other couples were the ones to "put out the invite" and that this "new couple"had never been out with you all before.

Any chance that they were not advised about the expected "dress code", I would guess that if you invite him to a similar dinner engagement, he will either dress the same as everyone or may just come up with an excuse not to go out.

Also, do you know what he does for a living? or is he retired? If he retired and moved to Thailand, it is entirely possible that he doesn't even own a suit any more...

That was going to be my reply. I never bring formal clothes to Thailand. I own two suits and a couple of sports jackets in Canada, but seldom wear them except for special occasions. Had it been me I guess I might have asked what to wear when I got the invite, but I've hardly EVER seen farangs in formal clothes in Thailand... unless they are visiting the Royal party. If I was invited out for supper I would wear the cleanest outfit I have, but that would be all. I've seen lots of guys wearing scruffy clothes at gala parties and just chalk it up to their excentricity... or lack of breeding.

[Soutpeel]

... or lack of breeding.

Ian

and this is the exact reason why Thailand is the way it is.....certain farangs cant get any breeding in their own countries so come here to get some breeding done here....

[mahtin]

[Soutpeel]

Is it my eyes or is that the elephant man in a dress playing the piano ??....

Edited August 24, 2010 by Soutpeel

[Tonto21]

The maintaining of a personnel standard for people I feel is a hang up from our upbringing, work and social environment, a form of conditioning and wanting to fit in. I am guilty of this, as we all are in some small way, we are social animals. If I had been invited to such an event the OP described I would have made some effort out of respect for the host. However I consider myself, I hope, to be laded back enough let it slid should someone not dress up, as long as they are clean, BO free and good company.

[Loz]

I think the real questions are:

Did he tuck his napkin into his collar, or did he place it in his lap?

Did he pull the chair out for his partner or just dump his butt in his chair?

Did he take his soup from the edge of the spoon futhest from him?

assuming he got those basics right, my guess is you can expect to see him again.

I love watching the guy in the gieves and hawkes tailored suit not even bother to pull out (and push in) the chair for his date but be sure to flash his bi-metal daytona cosmograph around for all to see (not realising that the stainless steel model is THE one to own).

You can't buy class, but manners are always at home at the dinner table.

[GuestHouse]

If I had been invited to such an event the OP described I would have made some effort out of respect for the host.

This is the point I'm making, not that this particular guest should have worn as suit, rather that he clearly had made no effort at all, while his wife certainly had. So while she made an effort with her clothing, make-up and hair, he didn't even bother to shave.

The "standard slipping: is not simply one of dress but also of courtesy to one's host.

I ought also to point out, he's not a movie star.

[Dakhar]

Life is WAY too short to worry about such things

[Chunky1]

Jeans and a t-shirt is dressing up for the majority of our members.