The Park Cidlom Condominium

[pkrv]

I am making my first overseas property purchase and after reviewing all the options have gone for one of the two bedroom apartments (one of the C2's) in the Park Chidlom Condominium Bangkok.

The building looks to be of high standard and all the C2 units have sold. the unit is about 142 sq meters and the price tag was/will be 14m Thai Baht (70 % paid on completion). Aparently 60% of the units have sold with little or no advertising.

http://www.theparkresidence.co.th/

I have seen some interesting posts on the state of the property market in Bangkok but no one has really commented on the Park Chidlom. I do realize that this property is at the top end on the market but the rental market seems to be for properties in the 10-20 m range, which this falls into.

I'm not actually looking for high returns as this could well be my retirement home but do I stand a good chance of renting this out? Have I made a good choice in the area?

[Khun Larry]

Looks about as good as any. Many will like the location.

When finished, there will be a glut of rentals on the market as always. Probably rent for $1000 - 1500 / month, furnished. Definitely not the same ROI as in the West.

[thedude]

the park is a good choice.

they don't advertise because david thinks that the higher end market needs personalised sales service, hence viewing by appointments only.

based on today's grade A rates you are looking at about 600 psm which should generate about 7.3% gross, not too bad. my feel is that you won't get capital upside this cycle, but you are okay for the medium to long term.

its true that inventory will be high by the time this completes, but some good grade A's are very resilient and continue to enjoy 100% occupancy with a waiting list for rental, particularly those around lang suan, somkid and chidlom (but strangely not wireless). you can do your own survey to verify this. the reason is because you can count the number of units coming up in the ploenchit part of town, very few compared to other areas like sukhumvit. ploenchit land is becoming more scarce and there wont be much left. think long term, observe what is happening around central world plaza, central chidlom, siam paragon, erawan with all the skylinks, and you get an idea of what you have just bought into.

[pkrv]

Guys many thanks for the comments - The one thing I have noted is how much quality information/community is available on thaivisa.com

FYI returns from all asset classes (equities, bonds etc) in the UK including cash and residential letting market are 5% or less. The UK housing market is also now slipping. UK life companies will in the long run be returning around 5% as well (they will not pay off mortgages and they only has to average 6% to do that!). So Thailand is not a bad bet.

I don't know if you guys are aware but a wall of money will soon hit the property market from the UK, as people are able to invest in residential property with their pension money via SIPPs (Self Invested Pensions).

Interesting that there have been no negative comments. I tend to agree Chidlom is an upmarket area though you should be aware that many of the units for sale are 300 sq m and above selling for around the 30m mark. So I am hoping that the rental market will not be swamped, as many of these will be residences. I personally recommend going to see the show unit I fell in love!

[pkrv]

Sorry typo SIPP = Self Invested Personal Pension - It's too early in the morning here...

[corkscrew]

Guys many thanks for the comments - The one thing I have noted is how much quality information/community is available on thaivisa.com

FYI returns from all asset classes (equities, bonds etc) in the UK including cash and residential letting market are 5% or less. The UK housing market is also now slipping. UK life companies will in the long run be returning around 5% as well (they will not pay off mortgages and they only has to average 6% to do that!). So Thailand is not a bad bet.

I don't know if you guys are aware but a wall of money will soon hit the property market from the UK, as people are able to invest in residential property with their pension money via SIPPs (Self Invested Pensions).

Interesting that there have been no negative comments. I tend to agree Chidlom is an upmarket area though you should be aware that many of the units for sale are 300 sq m and above selling for around the 30m mark. So I am hoping that the rental market will not be swamped, as many of these will be residences. I personally recommend going to see the show unit I fell in love!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you made a good purchase. Late last year I signed a contract on a condo in Athenee Residence.

[Nordlys]

I think you made a good purchase. Late last year I signed a contract on a condo in Athenee Residence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just out of curiosity, what is the price per sm at Athenee Residence?

[corkscrew]

I think you made a good purchase. Late last year I signed a contract on a condo in Athenee Residence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just out of curiosity, what is the price per sm at Athenee Residence?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

114k

[trajan]

The Park Chidlom looks fantastic, but I prefer the location of the Athenee Residence cause its right at the doorstep of the skytrain Ploenchit station (I dont drive--taxis and skytrains and subways for me)......I also like the amazing pool and green area of the planned podium at Athenee Residence

[pkrv]

The Park Chidlom looks fantastic, but I prefer the location of the Athenee Residence cause its right at the doorstep of the skytrain Ploenchit station    (I dont drive--taxis and skytrains and subways for me)......I also like the amazing pool and green area of the planned podium at Athenee Residence

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Out of curiosity (As I am currently committed to the Park) I have not easily been able to find information on the Athenee Residence. Is there a web site?

The Park should be completed in September 2006 is the Athenee Residence completed or being built?

[The_Moog]

114k

Thats crazy.

I live on Wireless and I paid THB30,000 psm two years ago.

Park Chidlom is nice, but thats too expensive as well. It'll be good to live in but I can't see that you'll ever make a lot of money on it, and you get the same view of Nai Lert Park as I do (assuming you've paid the higher price there to get a green view)

[Nordlys]

114k

Thats crazy.

I live on Wireless and I paid THB30,000 psm two years ago.

Park Chidlom is nice, but thats too expensive as well. It'll be good to live in but I can't see that you'll ever make a lot of money on it, and you get the same view of Nai Lert Park as I do (assuming you've paid the higher price there to get a green view)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. But at the same time I can't imagine anyone developing any project for less than that price at that location. BTW where is Nai Lert Park?

[trajan]

Out of curiosity (As I am currently committed to the Park) I have not easily been able to find information on the Athenee Residence. Is there a web site?

The Park should be completed in September 2006 is the Athenee Residence completed or being built?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Athenee Residence is scheduled to finish in 2007...its on Ruam Rudee almost at the corner of Ploenchit Road. It will be in the same compound as the Athenee Plaza (Le Meridian) Hotel and a new Athenee Office Tower. Its on freehold land (unlike the hotel itself which is only on long term leasehold land from the Crown).

Athenee Residence basically sold out not long after the December 2004 launch.. (I think there might be 10-15 units left out of 219 when I last visited the sales office...but probably those are gone by now) ...so I guess there was no need to market as much (or set-up a dedicated website) as other projects....

here's a webpage I found at CBRE (who I think are the exclusive brokers):

<http://www.cbre.co.th/cbre_thailand/PropertyDetail.aspx?PropertyID=98>

but dont get me wrong, I think the Park Chidlom is fantastic, especially if you have a car

[thedude]

let me guess The_Moog, do you live at Withayu Complex? that's probably the only property i know on wireless that offers that kind of pricing, even 2 years ago.

agree with Nordlys that you can't develop for that kind of pricing anymore, my own numbers put grade A at somewhere around 25,000 psm GFA for construction costs alone, minimum.

since i have some background on both projects, my intuition says that the park should offer better value than athenee residence. i won't explain on the forum but you can pm me on this. location wise i think both have their merits, but i prefer the park since its only down the road from central chidlom.

[trajan]

114k

Thats crazy.

I live on Wireless and I paid THB30,000 psm two years ago.

Park Chidlom is nice, but thats too expensive as well. It'll be good to live in but I can't see that you'll ever make a lot of money on it, and you get the same view of Nai Lert Park as I do (assuming you've paid the higher price there to get a green view)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OMG where did you find a 30K psm condo on Wireless Road overlooking NaiLert Park??? R U referring to Wittayu Complex? If so, it wouldnt be a fair comparison....

Edited July 14, 2005 by trajan

[trajan]

... but i prefer the park since its only down the road from central chidlom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes agreed this is a nice feature, but Central Chidlom is directly connected to Skytrain Childom Station...just one stop away from Ploenchit Station, which is just a few steps from the front door of Athenee ......

but in any event I like both projects

[Nordlys]

let me guess The_Moog, do you live at Withayu Complex?  that's probably the only property i know on wireless that offers that kind of pricing, even 2 years ago.

agree with Nordlys that you can't develop for that kind of pricing anymore, my own numbers put grade A at somewhere around 25,000 psm GFA for construction costs alone, minimum.

since i have some background on both projects, my intuition says that the park should offer better value than athenee residence.  i won't explain on the forum but you can pm me on this.  location wise i think both have their merits, but i prefer the park since its only down the road from central chidlom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've seen Witthaya complex and sorry for The_Moog (if he lives there), but I don't think that is any comparison to Athenee Residence or Park Chidlom. I don't know when that place was built but my guess is they still have units left for sale. I didn't particularly like the idea of collecting parking fee for the visitors there (not to mention office-like parking lot that's not even in the same building). But I believe even at Witthayu complex, they were selling the units for B50 - 60K psm when I was in the market 3 years ago.

Park Chidlom is nice for being so close to Central Chidlom. But I don't particularly like that surrounding as compared to Athenee Residence where it's just one BTS stop away from Central, and right next to All Season's Place where there is Tops supermarket. And the access to the place by car isn't really that good compared to Athenee Residence (traffic in that small soi between Central and British Embassy can be terrible). I just hopeed Park Chidlom is a little bit closer to Ploenchit than to Petchaburi. My intuition is Athenee Residence offers better value for money than Park Chidlom. But I'd be very interested in knowing why thedude thinks otherwise, though I already have a condo and have nothing to do with either of the projects.

Edited July 14, 2005 by Nordlys

[The_Moog]

Correct in your assumptions. The parking is up shit-creek, there are legal disputes and there are probably distressed sellers here. There's a rubbishy hotel being built next door.

We're bringing down the neighbourhood. One that others are paying THB120,000 per metre to live in.

I know Nardone too and have talked to him about Park Chidlom, he seems to be happy with progress.

I prefer to buy low and take location rather than high-spec finishing.

[Nordlys]

Correct in your assumptions. The parking is up shit-creek, there are legal disputes and there are probably distressed sellers here. There's a rubbishy hotel being built next door.

We're bringing down the neighbourhood. One that others are paying THB120,000 per metre to live in.

I know Nardone too and have talked to him about Park Chidlom, he seems to be happy with progress.

I prefer to buy low and take location rather than high-spec finishing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BTW the low positioned windows in the units there looked really scary to me for such a high-rise condo. And quite a few units I've seen there are furnished in rather Chinese taste, which didn't appeal to me. Anyway it's not that bad at all if you bought that place for B30K psm.

[The_Moog]

The built-in furnishings are orrible tat, - my apt had the least offensive and looks quite nice really.

I'm not seriously advocating that anyone buys here, or comparing the quality.

But its cheap, and we're next-door, and I can see into your bedroom using my binoculars.

...and you know, you're grade A, but in a city that isn't Grade A. 50 yards from Park Chidlom are the slums of Makkasan.

So I don't think anywhere is worth shelling-out big bucks, or Manhattan prices for.

Even if you do look like the Chrysler Bdng.

[trajan]

So I don't think anywhere is worth shelling-out big bucks, or Manhattan prices for.

Even if you do look like the Chrysler Bdng.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With all due respect, the per sq meter/foot prices for the top quality projects we are talking about in BKK are nowhere near Manhattan prices...they are not even near the lofty heights of Hong Kong, Singapore or even Taipei prices...the BKK prices are possbily more expensive than Manila/Makati, Jakarta or Mumbai....but lets put a bit of perspective on it....

[thedude]

suppose project A and project B are both selling for 100 dollars

suppose the land for project A cost the developer 15 dollars when he paid for it 4 years ago. suppose the land for project B cost the developer 30 dollars when he paid for it 1 year ago.

suppose construction costs were 15% cheaper when project A awarded his construction contract 2 years ago, compared to project B who is probably still finalising the cost of project B right now.

suppose project A is developed by people who have well established connections with top class contractors and suppliers and more experience and leverage in negotiating deals in thailand, however, project A is their first residential project and they are out to prove a point by over-sprecifying the product. suppose project B is developed by foreigners who have never developed a project in thailand before, although they are world class residential builders in other countries.

intuitively, who do you suppose would be able to deliver a better quality project and who do you suppose can afford to throw in more goodies without taking a loss when competition heats up?

i am not biased here, i am just another developer who knows both sides. project B is no slouch, but if i had to choose, i'd pick project A.

Edited July 14, 2005 by thedude

[The_Moog]

but lets put a bit of perspective on it....

My perspective is that neither developer is leaving anything on the table for you.

You're getting a very nice property - but less of a deal; as all the profit, and a bit more besides is going to the builder.

We're probably seven-eighths of the way through the Thai business cycle, and neither project is even finished yet.

So, just be cautious - and i'm just saying that as a local resident trying to give some local flavour. As a neighbourhood, I still prefer here than any other part of Bangkok.

ps In case you don't feel like trying to decipher the Dude's algebra - he means Park Chidlom, built by Hemaraj Land (traditionally an Industrial developer) is Project A.

Edited July 14, 2005 by The_Moog

[trajan]

but lets put a bit of perspective on it....

My perspective is that neither developer is leaving anything on the table for you.

You're getting a very nice property - but less of a deal; as all the profit, and a bit more besides is going to the builder.

We're probably seven-eighths of the way through the Thai business cycle, and neither project is even finished yet.

So, just be cautious - and i'm just saying that as a local resident trying to give some local flavour. As a neighbourhood, I still prefer here than any other part of Bangkok.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By "neither developer is leaving anything on the table", if you mean that there is a very small chance of a quick profit by immediatly "fliiping" the property to another buyer...I agree...but I dont think that is the intention of most buyers in those top projects....

but if you can afford it and want a top location and quality in the CBD to live in and enjoy (or to have a nice non-hotel base when you visit and relax/play ), I think those two projects (as well as a few more in the CBD like the Infinity, etc.) are good choices.

I peronally wouldnt worry about the developers in those two projects halting construction and skipping town.....(I wouldnt say the same for all developers). They are feverishly working on those two projects.

[The_Moog]

but if you can afford it and want a top location and quality in the CBD to live in and enjoy (or to have a nice non-hotel base when you visit and relax/play biggrin.gif ), I think those two projects (as well as a few more in the CBD like the Infinity, etc.) are good choices.

I agree and look forward to being invited over the road for G&Ts on the balcony.

[pkrv]

I will be honest and say that I did not actually know of the Athenee Residence project before I bought into The Park Residence. I did wonder if I had fully achieved my goal, which was to buy into the very best property that a city has to offer

The comments about prices in other cities such as Hong Kong, Singapore etc are not lost on me. I had to look for an up and coming city where prices were still within reach. As with all these things which are based on personal preference, Bangkok fitted the bill perfectly.

Tongue in cheek I think on balance that “The Park Chidlom is arguably the finest and most exclusive development in Bangkok”. My reasons are:

The smallest units are 140 sq meters (and those are real figures, I have been around one or two properties touting 185 sq meters and wondered quite where they got the dimensions from). The apartments are huge and the sizes go up from there to 300 sq meters and above. This has the feel of a very low-density development.

Entry level pricing for the property is 14.5m Thai Baht (around 200,000 sterling). This should provide for a high level of ‘exclusivity’.

The property is not on the main Ploenchit Road, but slightly away from the densest traffic and trains. This is very important to me. My view should directly overlook the grounds of the British embassy.

None the less it’s only a few minutes walk away from Central Chidlom station, also very important.

The developer has got the product just right, superb specification, very up-market even by Western standards. By the way that’s not a water feature on the web site it’s the swimming pool. I doubt you could see from one end to the other when it’s completed!

The developer has also understood the overseas investor the superb web site is updated on an almost weekly basis, as each new floor is added.

The Athenee Residence project looks great but again from purely a personal perspective a little too high density for my tastes and a little too close to main transport arteries.

Sounds like the guys living in the Witthayu complex are sitting on gold mine, one or two more property cycles and redevelopment sounds a possibility?

[thedude]

but lets put a bit of perspective on it....

My perspective is that neither developer is leaving anything on the table for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that is absolutely correct. however, the late comer with significantly higher costs and lower margins will be less able to offer a discount, and if sales continue to be slow, holding costs will put pressure on the project to cut back on costs. lets just say sales reported so far are somewhat imaginative. the foreign developer will never run away, its a well-known developer and they have a reputation to keep. however project accounts are kept at project level, which means they will cut back on non-visible specifications if costs run up, this is not an unusual thing in the industry.

the other project which has already locked in costs and materials has already started booking profits for the project. if sales of the last units slow down, they just slash prices and move it off the books. its clear which is a less risky and more contained option.

[trajan]

I will be honest and say that I did not actually know of the Athenee Residence project before I bought into The Park Residence. I did wonder if I had fully achieved my goal, which was to buy into the very best property that a city has to offer

The comments about prices in other cities such as Hong Kong, Singapore etc are not lost on me. I had to look for an up and coming city where prices were still within reach. As with all these things which are based on personal preference, Bangkok fitted the bill perfectly.

Tongue in cheek  I think on balance that “The Park Chidlom is arguably the finest and most exclusive development in Bangkok”. My reasons are:

The smallest units are 140 sq meters (and those are real figures, I have been around one or two properties touting 185 sq meters and wondered quite where they got the dimensions from). The apartments are huge and the sizes go up from there to 300 sq meters and above. This has the feel of a very low-density development.

Entry level pricing for the property is 14.5m Thai Baht (around 200,000 sterling). This should provide for a high level of ‘exclusivity’.

The property is not on the main Ploenchit Road, but slightly away from the densest traffic and trains. This is very important to me. My view should directly overlook the grounds of the British embassy.

None the less it’s only a few minutes walk away from Central Chidlom station, also very important.

The developer has got the product just right, superb specification, very up-market even by Western standards. By the way that’s not a water feature on the web site it’s the swimming pool. I doubt you could see from one end to the other when it’s completed!

The developer has also understood the overseas investor the superb web site is updated on an almost weekly basis, as each new floor is added.

The Athenee Residence project looks great but again from purely a personal perspective a little too high density for my tastes and a little too close to main transport arteries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that if you studied the floor plans and layout of the Athenee (and the price lists), you will find that it is not denser or less exclusive than Park Chidlom. I happened to get a copy of one because I was studying this intensely at one point.

At the Athenee, there are only six units per floor (smallest being 130 sm up to 300 sm) with six elevator/lift banks so effectively one unit per elevator (floors 21-38). The floor layouts are such that two condo units are grouped with only two elevators so it will feel very private (instead of a mass market hotel feel). On Floors 8-20 only eight units per floor (again with 6 lifts). The penthouse units on floors 38-40 are huge. The pool pavilion, fitness center and gardens on the 8th floor extended podium are larger on a contiguous basis than the Park Chidlom, which would be much more attractive to me.

The Athenee Residence will also be very close (almost adjacent) to the Plaza Athenee, and the All Seasons mall and grocers). The skytrain entrance will be steps away from the front door for a jaunt to Central Chidlom, Central World Plaza and Siam Paragon. The feature of being directly on the main arteries and public transport is just what would attract me.

Overall, my personal preference would be Athenee Residence over Park Chidlom, but even then I would be hesitant to state that the Athenee (or the Park Chidlom)is the "finest and most exclusive development in Bangkok" as you state.

I think that in addition to the Park Chidlom and Athenee, The Infinity (with adjacent Sathorn Square), Baan Rajadamri, The Raffine II, The Met, and other select hi rises in Bangkok (not to mention lo rises like The Trees, etc.) each have their merits and claims to the 'optimus maximus' title.

P.S. I was advised by the sales people that in the Park Chidlom, only the Somkid Tower (F units and Penthouses) have direct views over the British embassy/Nai Lert Park and that the C units in the Chidlom Tower face inward only towards Somkid Tower. Was that advice wrong?

[pkrv]

It is unfortunate that when considering properties in Bangkok that I was completely unaware of the Athenee residence, having only discovered it through this very thread.

I did say "The Park Chidlom is arguably the finest and most exclusive development in Bangkok" - just my personal preference and residences are very much a "horses for courses" affair, no slight intended. It would have been nice to have had the Athenee to consider too for an investor in Thailand like myself to get a full picture of the options available. As it was I did view several properties but fell in love with Park Chidlom!

I can only speak for my own knowledge of the unit layouts, and I bought a C2 unit in the Chidlom Tower specifically because they do have a view South and West while meet my other requirements. By no means do the F and Penthouse units have sole views over British Embassy/Nai Lert Park - I believe there are many of the Park Chidlom units (D, E, F) that will have great views of this type.

[expatinasia]

Witthayu Complex was one of first buildings that I looked at 3 years ago. Since then, the prices have dropped considerably: the building is in serious disrepair, the lobby has recently been rebuilt - obviously designed by a color-blind interior decorator, it has no greenery, it's next to a shanty town and a polluted canel, it's surrounded by asphalt, and it's next to a building that has been abandoned since 1977. Only recently has the building started its conversion to a hotel. Not my definition of heaven.

The developer of the Park Chitlom has said that his property represents a great investment, because the price is less than one-third of the propert in Hong Kong. Comparing Bangkok to Hong Kong is laughable. One reason that HK property is so expensive is that it can be converted to cash very quickly. In the B15-40 million market, it takes a LONG time to find a buyer. Months. Years.

Buying a building in spec is risky...The Regents built a model showroom and, shortly after it was built, the developer decided to redesign the building interior. He ripped out the entire back wall of the showroom, and rebuilt the models. On the other hand...Sansiri is building a condo on Soi 24 - near the Emporium. As a sales rep gives you a tour, you'll get an earful: the wall treatments have changed, the ceiling treatments have changed, the faucets have changed, the built-in firniture is no lonmger included, the recessed lighting fixtures have been cheapened, the kitchen has changed, the santitary fixtures have changed - all done to make the condo cheaper to build. The biggest change: the windows will not be floor-to-ceiling, rather, there will be a 2 foot concrete band under the windows. Here's why: the floor plates were made thinner than normal. A computer simulation showed that with thinner floor plates, the building would twist. When the building twists, the windows would break (ala the Hancock building in Boston). The way Sansiri decided to prevent this was adding a 2 foot concrete corset at each floor.

As most of you have seen, if you travel Soi 24, there will be another 8-10 condo and apartment building completed there in the next 6 years. The area is almost completely Japanese in nature. Knowing how much the Japanese overspend, the condos are priced similarly, mostly due to proximity to the Japanese embassy. Hurry, buy NOW NOW NOW !! What the real estate folks probably won't tell you is that the new Japanese embassy (located near Lumpini park) will open in a few years. When that happens, and the Japanese relocate to be closer to "home", what's going to happen to the prices along Soi 24. Hmmm...