Your Thoughts On This Thailand'S Pr And Naturalisation Policies.

[Zoowatch]

Hi there,

I am a Thai national and yesterday I had an interesting conversation with friends working (high up) in the government who are familiar with the immigration / residency policies for expats who intend to settle in Thailand. Like most other Thais, I am not familiar with Thailand's residency and citizenship policies, but it was interesting to learn from these people that the system is currently 'a mess' and a sweeping reform is needed to make it tough but fair and more transparent. They said that it is necessary to push for a major change, but details of the new rules that should be implemented under the new system were the subject of a heated debate among us.

Basically, these people help formulate immigration policies that are potentially explosive in the political terms, and they believe that new immigration rules in a reformed system should be something that is acceptable to both the expats as well as the locals, so that Thais will not feel resentful that Farangs get permanent residency or citizenship too easily, while genuine cases of expats wanting to settle and contribute in Thailand passes the yardstick without too much of a red tape. From our 3-hour debate, this is the general consensus of what the new rules should be. Of course, there are lots and lots of other details which we haven't really discussed, so the followings may seems flawed (i.e. with loopholes etc.), but you get a rough idea of what we thought as an improved alternative to the existing system.

Permanent Residency:

1. Have rights to remain in Thailand for at least 5 consecutive years (i.e. holding work permit, social visit visa etc.). Experts / professionals / upper management / investors (>10 million THB committed for investment) / those holding a PhD can apply for PR after 1 year of living legally in Thailand.

2. Applicant can prove that he/she has a bank account balance of at least 1 million baht worth of savings for at least 1 year, or have prove of a combined income exceeding 100,000 baht per month. Savings / income in foreign currencies to be converted into THB for consideration. If not in a paid employment, must be of a retirement age (over 60) or as a dependent of a Thai national (younger than 18).

3. If applicant has married or legally registered as a civil partner of a Thai national, 1-year social visit visa, spending at least 9 month in that year in Thailand, only then allowed to apply for PR.

4. Possesses a basic Thai listening skill. Proven by passing a Prathom 3-level listening examination comprising of 20 multiple choice questions (passage read in Thai, questions and multiple choice in English). Upon passing, a certificate is issued, which must be used to support PR application within 6 months.

5. Of good character and sound mind: no criminal history; not being charged for a serious crime. Sexual orientation or religion should have no bearing on the application's success.

6. Application fees 5,000 THB during application; additional 50,000 payable upon a successful application.

7. Decision on application within 2 months.

8. Benefits of possessing a PR: rights to access to all banking, finance and insurance services. Rights to owing vehicles, to drive, to work, to remain indefinitely in Thailand. No restriction on the purchase of condominiums, or properties on land smaller than 1 rai. If purchasing an empty plot of land, it must be used for residential purpose only. Rights to consume goods and services at 'Thai prices', and legally protected from double pricing practices.

9. May hold up to 49% of a company's share. Cannot vote, apply for state benefits, or participate in politics. Cannot take up civil service employment. Cannot seek treatment under the 30-baht universal healthcare scheme. No need for visa run, no reporting every 90 days.

10. Children of a PR born in Thailand may apply for Thai citizenship, and can be educated in both state or private schools at local fees.

11. Those who do not receive more than the stated income (100,000THB) or do not possess more than the stated savings (1 million THB), but have been living legally in Thailand for more than 10 consecutive years are allowed to provide supporting evidence of their stay in Thailand over the past of 10 years, provided that they are in a paid employment of more than 30,000THB/month at the time of PR application.

Citizenship:

1. Of good character and sound mind: no criminal history; not being charged for a serious crime.

2. Application fees 10,000 THB during application; additional 100,000 payable upon a successful application.

3. Have been holding a Thai PR for 10 years or more (i.e. not in breach of any immigration law). If married or legally registered as a civil partner of a Thai national, applicant must have have been a PR and remain in the same marriage for 7 years before becoming eligible to apply. If already divorced, then 10 years of residency is required.

4. Able to listen, speak, read and write Thai at a Matthayom 2 level. Language skill assessed by reading Thai newspaper articles and answer 30 multiple-choice questions + a 15-minute interview in Thai.

5. Remain in a paid employment or receiving a combined income of at least 30,000 THB/month, or possessing a combined savings or investment of more than 1 million THB.

6. Attended 5 x 2-hour civic lessons on civic duties and rights, conducted mainly in English with some Thai, prior to naturalisation application.

7. Must declare intention to denounce other citizenship.

8. Application decision in 4 months, followed by attending the next citizenship ceremony (biannual).

9. Given similar rights as all Thai citizens, except that he is exempted from the military service, and may not work in civil service positions that affects national security (armed forces, intelligence agencies, ministerial, legislative or parliamentary positions etc.). To be issued with Thai ID cards and passports. May hold 100% share of a company, and take up any executive position. May buy land or properties of any size or kind or for any purpose. Can seek 30-baht treatment at state hospitals, or claim state benefits. Children (second generation) will be regarded as any other Thai citizens, and will be required to report for military draft.

I know that you may think that this is a total waste of time, but there are many Thais who were educated abroad, moving up the bureaucracy ladder, wanting to change things and make the country more open and fair. I also know that everyone on ThaiVisa forum has a lot to say about Thailand, so what do you think about the above proposals? My Thai friends feel that this is fair, but do you feel the same, or is it too unrealistic to ask for? Is this an improvement over the current system? Do you think this will lead to an increase in the number of PRs and foreign-born citizens in Thailand, or will these scare everyone away? How can that be improved? Do you foresee that this would lead to more abuse over the current system? Do you think that this should only be offered to expats coming from wealthier countries than Thailand, and exclude those hundred of thousands Burmese, Laotians, Cambodians and Vietnamese living in Thailand? Lastly, how does this compare with the PR and naturalisation policies in Malaysia, Singapore and other neighbouring countries?

Thanks for sharing.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Zoowatch

[ToffeEFCpower]

Sounds good to me, but can it ever be implemented under "Thai" democracy rules?

[mausplan]

positive suggestions apart from denouncing other citizenship.

[PoorSucker]

8. Benefits of possessing a PR: rights to access to all banking, finance and insurance services. Rights to owing vehicles, to drive, to work,

9. May hold up to 49% of a company's share

I have this without PR.

Have bank accounts, work permit, motorbikes, Thai driving license, own 49% of my company.

For applying for Thai citizenship the official fee is Baht 5,000.

The applicant must have had five years with PR.

Children of parents with PR gets Thai citizenship.

I think it should be much easier for married to Thai national to get PR and citizenship.

I have a friend that have been married and lived here on Koh Samui for 32 years.

He still have to go to Penang to get visas.

He is retired old man with Thai children and grandchildren but not have the money for applying for PR.

I suggest you read this thread about PR and citizenship.

Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

Edit: Ohhh, forgot that nobody has been approved for PR since 2006.

Edited September 5, 2010 by PoorSucker

[oldgeezer]

I don't pretend to be typical, but would trust many other expats are in a similar situation:

American

Married to Thai for 28 years

Retired in Thailand 6 years so far

Plan to live out our life here

Will always qualify under monthly income requirements

Wife will receive my benefits upon my death

Spend 98% of my retirement income in Thailand

Whether one chooses to define it as Permanent Residency, citizenship or whatever, it is not complicated for me. My suggestions would entail:

No yearly extensions to retirement visa

No 90 day reporting

No re-entry permits

Perhaps the government could start out slowly in this manner and progress to the more complex questions.

I can't imagine how that would harm or offend any Thai citizens, nor why I should pay more than a minimal administration fee for the benefit.

Once one starts adding in work permitting, taxes and company ownership requrements, it becomes many orders of magitude more complicated.

Edited September 5, 2010 by oldgeezer

[ThaiRich]

Interesting that you would requre a foreigner to have an education far superior to the "average" Thai. Interesting that you would require a foreigner to have an income of 100,.000 baht a month, while the average Thai is in the 20,000 thousand baht range. Give up my American citizenship for Thai citizenship. Why, when Thais become American citizens we allow them to maintain their Thai citizenship and have dual citizenship. Why is it always with you Thai people you want all or nothing. The chances of me giving up my American citizenship is about as high as the "average Thai" learning how to speak English at a fluent level.

[Pib]

Some quick inputs on the PR Requirements (no inputs on the Citizenship Requirements as I'm not interested in obtaining citizenship):

1. Sounds like only upper class & professors (with PhD's) are wanted. What's the definition of an expert / professional?

2. Should go with the current 800,000 Baht/year and/or 65,000 Baht/month income/pension/savings requirements like used for the current O-A Retirement Visa/Extension of Stay. Age requirement should be 50 like current Retirement O-A and not 60 years of age; needs to also be open to folks who haven't reached their golden years yet.

6. Why 50,000 Baht for a 5 year PR; can do a yearly O-A retirement extension for 1,900 Baht/year....times 5 years that's 9,500 Baht. Basically, the PR would be fives times more expensive than just renewing an Retirement extension of stay yearly. No, if you are talking a one time payment that's good forever, then that's OK.

8. Definitely good stuff on land ownership. But don't see how you are going to effectively enforce protection from double pricing standards unless the govt just "does away" with its current policies regarding such.

9. The no 90 day reporting is a good thing....it's such a waste of time, both for the govt and individual. Once a year is more than enough.

11. The last half of the requirement seems confusing. That is,"...but have been living legally in Thailand for more than 10 consecutive years are allowed to provide supporting evidence of their stay in Thailand over the past of 10 years..." Additionally, the income requirement should be the same as the current O-A requirement. Conflctswith with income requirement in Number 2. Keep the income/savings/pension requirements simple, reasonable, and applicable to as many as possible instead of having many different rules.

Cheers and Thanks for something to dream about.

[wolf5370]

Fees are arbitrary and too high - should be enough to cover administration fees and nothing further. Benefits for PR should be the same as citizenship except: no recourse to public funds (30Baht medical etc)), no requirement for national service, no right to Thai passport, ID card perhaps in a different colour, land ownership for single place of domicile only (why a land restriction of 1 rai? If I live there what does it matter if I buy a house on a 4 rai plot?), no voting rights, no right of office (i.e. can't stand for political position), limited restriction on work (i.e. civil service/military/politics/etc disallowed).

Citizenship should not require giving up foreign citizenship: Thailand allows dual nationality - you Prime Minister has it for starters!

Farangs married to Thais (either way around - and including civil partnerships of 'married' same-sex couples) should have to prove the marriage is stable and not of convenience. Thus the restriction should be: Married to a Thai for at least 5 years and cohabitation during that time. No legal measures underway to dissolve them marriage or evidence of long time separation. This can be anywhere - not just in Thailand - as it is the proof of stable relationship that is required. With this requirement, PR should be obtainable after one year of living in Thailand on a non Imm O, OA or B visa, regardless of income or savings (with no recourse to public funds - what the heck does it matter anyway).

PR should be able to be transferred into citizenship after 5 years and there should be no further fee (other than basic administrative).

I think children of the PR holder who are not Thai citizens by birth, should automatically receive the PR status of their parent(s) and the same when moving to citizenship.

Rather than a mandatory citizen course, there should be a citizen test (in Thai) as there is in many western countries (UK for example). This put the onus on the foreigner to learn the customs, rights and common laws of the land. Books and course can then be made available at universities around the country so that even non-applicants can attend if they wish.

Citizenship should bestow all right of a national (with the exceptions at point 9 as you listed).

PR and citizenship is about immigration. This means that Thailand, like most other countries, is trying to garner the positives of immigration http://www.ehow.com/about_4781803_positive-effects-immigration.html. It should not be about raising income. The best system seems to be a points system. Points are awarded based on many things, not just a small set of rules. This allows for people of all desirable types rather than a myopic overlap of desirable people who tick all the boxes (and probably do not choose Thailand anyway). Points for education, points for long term commitment to the country, points for wealth/investment, points for connection to Thai citizen (marriage/family/business), points for expertise (more for more desired skills such as qualifies teachers, manager, specialists, technicians etc and for certain required trades - this list can change over time), and so on. Thailand has different requirement from the UK, Australia, USA etc, especially towards the fact that as there is almost zero social fund here, retirees become desirable (whereas the opposite is true in most 'wealthy' countries).

I think that thinking about and discussing this is very helpful and a great step forward if the 'higher ups' are thinking about it. Bringing the right sort of people into Thailand as immigrants (and helping to make it easier for mixed families living here - and therefore strengthening the family and protecting the Thai progeny) is a real possibility for some real benefits to the country and its economy, future and image. I would go further and suggest a think tank with either farang members or at least participants and Thai thinkers would help iron out the wrinkles and serve up the best policy all round.

Just my 2 satang's worth.

[gotlost]

8. Benefits of possessing a PR: rights to access to all banking, finance and insurance services. Rights to owing vehicles, to drive, to work,

9. May hold up to 49% of a company's share

I have this without PR.

Have bank accounts, work permit, motorbikes, Thai driving license, own 49% of my company.

For applying for Thai citizenship the official fee is Baht 5,000.

The applicant must have had five years with PR.

Children of parents with PR gets Thai citizenship.

I think it should be much easier for married to Thai national to get PR and citizenship.

I have a friend that have been married and lived here on Koh Samui for 32 years.

He still have to go to Penang to get visas.

He is retired old man with Thai children and grandchildren but not have the money for applying for PR.

I suggest you read this thread about PR and citizenship.

Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

Edit: Ohhh, forgot that nobody has been approved for PR since 2006.

September 19, 2006 to be exact..

[stbkk]

Firstly I'll add my thanks to you for offering to allow us some 'input' to this discussion, however unofficial it may be at this point.

I've also deliberately kept my comments more general, to avoid getting bogged down in detail too early in the discussion.

1. I'd assume the purpose is to try and allow foreigners of 'good character' who have demostrated some sort of commitment (either financial or emotional) to Thailand over a number of years some security.

2. This would be very welcome. As in one of the previous posts, I have worked and paid taxes in Thailand for a good many years. I have also bought a house here (in my wifes name, of course), supported her family in general in various ways (not just financial), including putting my stepson as well as my natural son through international school education. If I lost my job, I would have 7 days to arrange a change of visa that would allow me to stay and find another job, or leave my wife, children and home - Thanks very much!

3. Most foreigners described in 1 above can be categorised into two groups.

i. Still working in some form or other, either through their own business or employed. The majority of these would not have to much problem meeting income requirements set above.

ii. People who may or may not have been in group (a), but who are now retired and wish to stay. Some of these may have limited incomes, which are still perfectly adequate to live comfortably on in Thailand, especially for somebody who has lived here for a number of years.

4. In my opinion, the majority of both categories would be happy with a small list of 'benefits' as below (my own personal priority).

i. Security of stay - I.e. Permanent. , No visa runs, no 90 day reports, no worry about loss of job/loss of visa.

ii. Ease of work - Why should somebody with 'Permanent' residence still need a work permit, and have any restrictions on what type of work they can do, apart from possibly restrictions in some areas of government service?

iii. The ability to actually own the house and land they live in/on. By all means limit it to one private residence per 'PR', and limit the amount of land if you must.

5. I personally, and most of the people who have posted so far would not be interested in Thai citizenship if it meant giving up our original citizenships. Thai's are hugely proud of being Thai, and how many who currently enjoy dual-nationality would give that up if required to get a UK/USA whatever passport? If you are trying to make the process fair and transparent, why have this restriction!

Finally, does this mean that there may actually some movement in the current logjam of PR applications, going back nearly 4 years mow?

Edited September 5, 2010 by stbkk

[Guest]

A lot of pointless speculation about something that is unlikely to happen. Politicians make policy not civil servants, and with so much nationalism, vested interests, and changes of government this is the last thing on any potential cabinet ministers mind.

[Pib]

Although I provided an input, I would tend to agree with you. I'm fairly sure most of the suggested changes would require changes in laws (requires Cabinet & Parliament involvement) versus being able to make minor changes in current immigration regulations based on current laws.

[mca]

To be honest as a westerner married to a Thai I'd be happy enough with a simple 3 year extension or the like rather than annually.

[elliss]

Edit: Ohhh, forgot that nobody has been approved for PR since 2006. :

live in hope ,

die of dispair . :jap:

[Zoowatch]

Hi all,

Thanks for all of your feedbacks. You guys definitely don't disappoint when it comes to sharing. Initially, I was bracing myself to be trashed outright, but it turned out to be not as bad as it could be. Let me say that our desire to change the system is to mainly accommodate those who have been here, worked here, started a family here for many decades and still haven't received the rights to settle here permanently. We believe that an official recognition is very important to the expats community, and many of the existing visa rules are simply archaic and bizarre. The fact that many expats have lived here for over 10 years are still subjected to the 90-days rules/visa runs is simply a shame for Thailand. Of course, we simply do not want the promiscuous, bar beer, odd job type, and there cannot be 100,000 PRs a year, so we must try to pick out the good ones, the self-supporting ones.

Many people would think that most Thais wouldn't care if Thailand adopts a more liberal immigration policy. The answer is yes, and also no. Such issue could be used for political gains and the local media can make a big fuss out of it. This will discourage politicians to come forward and extend their support. If a new system is ever passed, we think that it should be a rather low profile kind of event, just like in 2002.

Don't under-estimate the influence of the bureaucrats. You may think that they never set policies, because it's always the politicians who steal the limelight and claim credits for any positive outcomes of government policies. The fact is that bureaucrats always want to maintain consistency with frequent changes of government, and it is always trying to formulate new policies in the background, and then ministers come along and pick one that would benefit them personally and sit on those that could potentially explode in their faces if passed. However, the fact remains that many mundane, news-unworthy policies are purely crafted by the bureaucrats, not the politicians, and sometimes, they get approved just fine as long as there are no thorny issues. I am not talking about bureaucrats who are the frontline staffs, there is also another group who is more invisible but considerably influential. There have been many occasions where a minister wanted something (that is out of line with the current policy) done badly, but things simply don't happen as the high ranking bureaucrats were not on his side. I can't be too specific here, but the point is that there is a balance of power and many low profile changes come from within the bureaucrats itself.

I can't promise that anything may come out of this. But at least I can get these point across to those people who have a say in things. Typically, things falls on deaf ears, but on this particular issue, my friends seem particularly passionate about it, so I would use the opportunity to gather feedbacks, wrap them up nicely and pass it to them.

My friends (typical middle-class Thais, with strong bureaucratic family backgrounds, educated abroad, end up working in high places in ministries) had mentioned repeatedly that obtaining the rights to settle permanently in the UK / US isn't easy at all. If you are not married to a British / American and are trying to apply based on your own merits, "you are always treated like dogs" (I'm quoting them, and all of them seem to agree). The West demands that migrants speaks better standard of English, know more about the country's history than the natives, spend more time volunteering in the community, have a much higher qualification (masters at the very least) and income (~1.5X more) than the locals. You have to jump through hoops and burden yourselves with months of red tapes and endure second-class citizen treatments. Sound familiar? One of my friends described his ordeal with the UK Border Agency when he was just trying to extend his student visa and obtain the compulsory biometric ID card (typically take 6 months, cost more than £400, just to remain in the country for another 12 months) and described it as a "total farce". Was £430 fee justified? Was the 6-month wait without a passport justified? Was the inherent suspicion that all Thais would abusive their visa and become prostitutes justified? My point is that Thailand's immigration policy is bad, and while the West may be better, it isn't a bed of roses either. And I wouldn't be surprised if this group of people were to formate a new immigration policy for Thailand, they would certainly draw inspirations from their own experience living abroad and all the sufferings they have been through.

The problem seems to be legality issues since the demise of the 1997 constitution. The issuing of PR / citizenship should resume once someone fully clarifies the legal standing of such practices. The 2007 constitution on such matters is exactly the same as the 1997 constitution, but ministers are unwilling touch it until ( A ) the legal cloud over this has been cleared, or ( B ) the 2007 constitution has been amended (it will definitely happen, but would be at least a year away). I am no expert in all of this but this seems to be the problem now. Of course, amendments to the 2007 constitution would also be an opportunity to change the immigration policy to make it easier and fairer. But you you guys say, This is Thailand, and nothing is for certain. To be exact, bureaucrats don't set policies, they 'draft' and 'recommend' them to the ministers and rely on their political power to have it passed.

Thank you for sharing, and I must apologise if the so called 'rules' I had written in the initial post sounds like a joke to you. These were written on a sheet of paper over a restaurant dinner, but the point is that it has captured the attitude of a couple of Thais who want and have the potential to make real changes happen.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Zoowatch

[Zoowatch]

Another route is to make changes happen is to try to bring this to the attention of the prime minister directly. I suppose that you need to have things written in Thai, saying that you represent hundreds of expats who have lived in Thailand for decades and would like to propose some changes, and send it to his website http://www.pm.go.th/connect or to his party headquarter by snail mail. You may not get his reply, but it may get his attention somehow. Many Thais have (unexpectedly) received short video replies from the PM after they posted their comments on the PM website. Topics that many people ask about are usually picked for the PM to reply.

[wolf5370]

Thanks ZooWatch. (Are we the 'animals' in the zoo you are watching?).

My wife came to the UK when we wed 12 years ago (after a 2 year courtship in Thailand). She immediately received a visa that allowed her to stay in the UK. After a short time she received the Indefinite Leave to remain stamp in her passport that allowed her to stay indefinitely. She wanted to work, so applied for a National Insurance Number and was given a temporary one within a week. Then a month later her NI card arrived with her perminant number on. She could then work (doing anything she wanted). During her first 3 years in England she was given free English lessons at the local Adult Education College - she passed all the levels prior to being able to teach herself (4 levels) at the award ceremony she was given the certificate by an ex prime minister. After 5 years in the UK (although it needed to only be 3 years) she applied for and received British Citizenship - she only had to pay a fee, and sign a declaration of allegeance to the queen and country. She was able to keep her Thai Nationality too. At any point she was allowed access to the public purse with respect to free medical help from the NHS, free schooling if she had brought any children with her (she had none, but the ability was there if she had), access to everything a citizen has except direct benefit and unemployment money (though children would probably still receive family allowance etc). At no point did she have to wait longer than 4 months for any stamp (the longest being the ILR which took 4 months - including Christmas which is almost a month break in the civil service).

Since then, the old "primary purpose" rule has been dropped (that kept many people from emigrating to the UK), and the UK has introduced a citizen test for citizenship (that is possibly a bit silly given the questions - though all questions can be learned from books on the subject or computer software). However, for ILR (residency) there is no language requirement, no cultural test, no means test - just the proof of marriage.

We now live in Thailand. Our kids' Thai passport are stamped with "Thai National born outside of Thailand..." for no reason other than to make them feel foreign (they have Thai and UK Birth Certificates) - their British passports do not say anything of their lineage as to the UK they are British. I have to apply for a non immigrant visa. Have to prove I have cash in the bank or earnings even though there is no social safety net anyway. Can own no home with a garden in my name. Can not work without going through a whole rigmorole of finding a job that I am allowed to do and that is willing to go through all the expense and return journies to immigration to get a work permit and subject to a minimum salary way above Thai national's. Have to report my address every 3 months. Have almost zero chance of getting PR, let alone citizenship. Can, at any point, be subject to a new visa rule that causes me to be separated from my family.

I think to compare the way we who are married to Thais, with Thai children, trying to make a real contribution to the country and be part of normal society and do the best for our Thai families with the way thais who have visas in the UK (who can start businesses and even buy land on tourist visas) is nonsense, sorry. We are talking about people who are already here - who have already received a non tourist visa - so comparisons regarding the ease of getting one is irrelevent to the question.

Edited September 5, 2010 by wolf5370

[Zoowatch]

Hi there, please don't be suspicious, my user name has nothing to do with you guys being seen as animals, I have always used this user ID since 1995 in many forums. I did mention in my previous post that "If you are not married to a British / American and are trying to apply based on your own merits, you are always treated like dogs". In those cases, the person trying to extend his/her visa is already in the US or UK. And yes, I am not lying, the home office is now taking about 6 month to process a simple visa extension, and most Thais who are not married with a British are having quite a difficult time. I am not trying to compare that with your case where you have married a Thai spouse and seeking a PR in Thailand. If I haven't felt that the whole system is failing the expats, and if there isn't a genuine concern, I wouldn't have dared to post a message here.** Therefore, I am interested in hearing your side of the story and see if I could do something about it in my limited capacity. If one keeps moaning about Thailand right here, that wouldn't solve anything other than making you feel even more negative about the country you are in.

**Many Thai online communities are fully aware of the term "farangs at ThaiVisa" used to describe someone for being too eager to pooh-pooh everything about Thailand, and although we acknowledge that there are problems here, you guys haven't got the most enchanting reputation out there. I have asked my friends if they have read ThaiVisa since some of the topics discussed here are related to their work, 3 of them (all of them PhD graduates from the US/UK) said they have visited this forum before but felt depressed reading some of the comments here, so they have stayed away ever since.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Zoowatch

[samran]

We now live in Thailand. Our kids' Thai passport are stamped with "Thai National born outside of Thailand..." for no reason other than to make them feel foreign (they have Thai and UK Birth Certificates) - their British passports do not say anything of their lineage as to the UK they are British.

I wouldn't read too much into any of this. I too was born overseas, but my Thai passport never has had this stamp put into it (except for my first passport which simply said it was issued in Canberra under the authority of the consul there..).

To the extent the stamp matters under Thai law..it means nothing. Your kids and their descendants would be able to move away from Thailand forever and Thai nationality would pass down to each generation in perpetuity, with out ever needing to come back to Thailand. My daughters have blond/red hair, blue eyes and are as white as the Irish (with Irish surnames), and have never been denied access to anything entitled to them under Thai law, including their passports.

Compare that to most western nations - one generation away from the 'home country' and unless you have very stong links back, your descendants lose the rights to citizenship.

Edited September 6, 2010 by samran

[David006]

Some of us have families we love, and make personal sacrifices to support them in Thailand. We did and do this happily, out of of love and respect for our families. Now that we are getting old, and want to retire, all we ask is the right to live quietly and peacefully with our loved ones, our families in Thailand. so, please, the next time you talk to your friends, just let them know there are a lot of foreigners who only want that to be possible...to live out our last years in Thailand with our families and friends.

Once again, thanks for giving me and others a chance...no matter how futile...to

respond to your questions.

Hear him, hear him....

...thanks for succinct post mate....sure lots of expats feel the same. It would be so nice not to have to worry about visa issues...

..just let me live in peace with my family and friends ...contributing to the economy albeit in a small way and no strain on the resources of Thailand

...thanks to the OP also

Edited September 6, 2010 by David006

[GeorgeO]

Hi there, please don't be suspicious, my user name has nothing to do with you guys being seen as animals, I have always used this user ID since 1995 in many forums. I did mention in my previous post that "If you are not married to a British / American and are trying to apply based on your own merits, you are always treated like dogs". In those cases, the person trying to extend his/her visa is already in the US or UK. And yes, I am not lying, the home office is now taking about 6 month to process a simple visa extension, and most Thais who are not married with a British are having quite a difficult time. I am not trying to compare that with your case where you have married a Thai spouse and seeking a PR in Thailand. If I haven't felt that the whole system is failing the expats, and if there isn't a genuine concern, I wouldn't have dared to post a message here.** Therefore, I am interested in hearing your side of the story and see if I could do something about it in my limited capacity. If one keeps moaning about Thailand right here, that wouldn't solve anything other than making you feel even more negative about the country you are in.

**Many Thai online communities are fully aware of the term "farangs at ThaiVisa" used to describe someone for being too eager to pooh-pooh everything about Thailand, and although we acknowledge that there are problems here, you guys haven't got the most enchanting reputation out there. I have asked my friends if they have read ThaiVisa since some of the topics discussed here are related to their work, 3 of them (all of them PhD graduates from the US/UK) said they have visited this forum before but felt depressed reading some of the comments here, so they have stayed away ever since.

Hello Zoowatch,

My response to your post does not attempt to add anything of any real substance to the points that have already been raised by other respondents, as to do so would simply be repetitive. I will therefore simply add, in support of several of the earlier responses, that the fees need only reflect the administrative costs involved, as opposed to filling up local government coffers to be used for other purposes, and there is very little point in pursuing your proposals if the end result is that you require applicants to denounce their foreign citizenship, as this will undoubtedly prove to be a major 'sticking point'. The main purpose of this response is, therefore, simply to encourage your continued efforts.

Let me begin by saying that you make a very valid point in your closing paragraph (above) about the 'image' of the general 'farang' community here that tends to be created by many posters on Thaivisa.com. Indeed, there are possibly many hundreds, or perhaps even thousands, of farangs who, similar to your colleagues, choose not to get involved in posting on Thaivisa essentially because they would inevitably become associated with the general trolls, ranters and abusers. I have already seen that there have been some rather dismissive, if not rude, comments on your proposals, and I would ask you to please disregard these, as they are clearly made by those who lack the ability to discuss such important matters at a respectful level.

I have been here in Thailand for seven years, on a 'retirement visa'(*), but as you will see from my posting statistics, it took me quite some time before I got involved in discussions on this forum, and given that I still have less than 50 posts, it is also clear that I do not post for the sake of doing so (i.e., to raise my post count), but merely to add constructive comments to interesting posts. Your post is one that particularly merits the attention of all 'serious' contributors to Thaivisa, and one that I would wish to see continued for as long as necessary; indeed, until you do succeed in bringing all of this to the attention of the responsible authorities.

Prior to coming to Thailand, I worked for five years as a Research Consultant with the Chunghua Institute for Economic Development (the economic research 'think-tank' of the Taiwanese government), and was responsible for the sub-editing and camera-ready production of White Papers, conference papers and discussion documents, including various proposals for changes to existing legal, socio-economic and medical policies, particularly those that would directly affect foreign residents. I noted that as a result of the healthy debate that invariably ensued from the type of discussion that you have initiated here, numerous changes were ultimately made to the regulations in Taiwan, to such an extent that the responsible authorities began to recognize that there was considerable merit in actually attracting the 'right' type of people, and assisting them to settle in Taiwan. Many barriers were removed, including pointless financial ones, and replaced with valid requirements which all interested parties would be required to meet.

This process has continued apace in Taiwan, which is rapidly becoming a very attractive place for foreign settlers of the right calibre, and which has succeeded in avoiding any influx of 'undesirables' simply by demanding only the basic requirements of higher educational achievement (Bachelors and Masters Degrees, not PhDs), proof of good standing (no criminal record) and simple proof of the ability to support oneself (such as proof of pension income). Once permission was granted, there would be no requirement for anyone to engage in 90-day reporting or to leave the country for visa purposes, and (when I left) the only reporting in place was a requirement to show that your status had remained unchanged on an annual basis.

As a result of the sensible focus on relevant issues only, which were subsequently well thought out and debated, applications for settlement by appropriate persons has provided Taiwan with a valuable source of much-needed intelligent, lateral-thinking talent which has proven to be of considerable use in Taiwan's continuing economic development. This is a very important area which has clearly received scant attention at the higher echelons in Thailand, and indeed, it is also clear that various policies have succeeded only in driving such valuable talent away.

You have clearly opened a 'Pandora's Box', which is likely to lead to lengthy debate, not only amongst your initiating group, but I would think, also on this forum. You are to be applauded for your efforts, and once again, I apologise on behalf of the detractors that you will undoubtedly come across in the farang community posting on this forum. I hope that we (the farang community) may continue to be involved in the development of your argument/proposals, and that by working through them with the input of the farang community, your proposals will become even more valuable when presented to the responsible authorities.

Congratulations, and thank you for raising the level of debate on Thaivisa.com!

Best Regards

George

* Readers: please refrain from telling me that there is no such thing as a "retirement visa" and providing me with an explanation of what it really is; I simply use the term in the same way as many others do, to describe the basis upon which I remain in Thailand.

[ToffeEFCpower]

All i want is to allowed to come and go as i like and live freely in Thailand, I have lived here 10 years and invested more money here than most Thai's can ever do... I have contributed to this country suitably

[Cuchulainn]

......Do you think that this should only be offered to expats coming from wealthier countries than Thailand, and exclude those hundred of thousands Burmese, Laotians, Cambodians and Vietnamese living in Thailand? .......

That's the spirit!! Keep out the real seekers of justice, peace and the want of a better life.

[maccaroni man]

8. Benefits of possessing a PR: rights to access to all banking, finance and insurance services. Rights to owing vehicles, to drive, to work,

9. May hold up to 49% of a company's share

I have this without PR.

Have bank accounts, work permit, motorbikes, Thai driving license, own 49% of my company.

For applying for Thai citizenship the official fee is Baht 5,000.

The applicant must have had five years with PR.

Children of parents with PR gets Thai citizenship.

I think it should be much easier for married to Thai national to get PR and citizenship.

I have a friend that have been married and lived here on Koh Samui for 32 years.

He still have to go to Penang to get visas.

He is retired old man with Thai children and grandchildren but not have the money for applying for PR.

I suggest you read this thread about PR and citizenship.

Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

Edit: Ohhh, forgot that nobody has been approved for PR since 2006.

imho it really comes down to simple math, when i first started getting my O visa it was 500 Baht a yr now it is just under 2k. the PR has always been quoted to me at over 200k hence at my age mid 50's i dont see the value nor the benefit. I just wish they would do away with the 90 day check in, continue to pay a fee every yr but not renew for 3yrs which is what they do in indo, making the process much easier.

[WormFarmer]

Hello Zoowatch: I have had my PR since 2006, so by definition I have accrued a record of working here and paying my taxes. I am married to a Thai lady and we have one daughter. Some of the conditions I had to meet were different to those suggested by you, but none the less onerous for all that. I think that the concept of improving and updating the conditions to obtain PR and citizenship are laudable and I hope you and your associates succeed. My only comments, as follows, are my personal observations on how any changes may affect me directly.

Since getting my PR my wife and I have established our company with each of us holding equal shares with our daughter holding the balance (plus the obligatory 4 other sponsors who hold 1 share each). Our wormfarm is run by my wife as, since 2007, I have been obliged to work outside Thailand because in my line of work, which is civil construction, there has been a marked downturn in new projects. Needless to say, whilst working abroad I made frequent return trips home to Thailand and have further committed myself to a life in Thailand by, last year, building a new house at our wormfarm. I intend to retire at the end of this year and thereafter live full time in Thailand on the strength of my PR. I am therefore hoping that any new regulations that may be introduced will not render null and void any previously issued PRs because as a retired person I would not be able to re-qualify under your new rules.

Having said that I applaud some of your proposed benefits for PRs, although as already pointed out many are available to anybody here on a work permit I would greatly support the proposal that PRs could work without a work permit, as this would allow me in my retirement to assist my wife in running our family company instead of lounging around the pool all day, whilst my wife works. In theory we could apply for a work permit for me as our company's paid up capital is sufficient and it employs more than four local workers, but unfortunately it could not afford to pay me the sort of salary necessary for me to qualify for a work permit.

I also think it would make sense to abolish the need for holders of PR to obtain a re-entry permit, after all, if their residency is defined as being permanent they should be allowed the same rights as nationals to come and go as they please.

Edited September 6, 2010 by WormFarmer

[aurelius]

All power to Zoowatch - Go for it!

Generally liking the proposal; a few comments:

Although not on a retirement visa myself, I think that the proposed 60 yr old age (#2) is too old and should be 55 or perhaps younger.

#7 decision within 2 months - nice to have, but by no means a requirement - 4-6 is fine - but try to uphold the time frame specified (the uncertainty is killing everyone)

#8 (land ownership) is a reasonable compromise, combined with unrestricted condo ownership. Access to banking services should include access to investment products - e.g. govt bonds, bills of exchange etc - many of which today are available to Thai nationals only. Access to mortgages should go hand in hand with entitlement to land assets (this is MOF policy rather than immigration).

I appreciate that leasehold terms are not specifically related to foreigners or to PR/Citizenship, however this is another topic which attracts a lot of criticism, especially in comparison to SING, MAL where 90 yr structures are common. It would help create some of the certainty that expats are looking for and go a way towards building an environment where retirement service businesses can be nurtured - this should be a huge growth business for Thailand over the next 10-20+ years.

Regarding citizenship, in my view the +10 years idea (after having PR) is too long; plus 5 at the max.

Also, I agree with earlier comments that the "intention to renounce" is a bit archaic, although one can appreciate where this sentiment originates from.

Another current requirement that concerns working foreigners is the premature end of a work permit, which forces a Non Imm B holder out of the country within a week. This should be a month, two months, 6 months, at least. Even a rental contract cannot be reasonably managed in a week (even a month), much less packing and all the other logistics that might arise - getting bills, getting flights. And even enough time for a chance at getting alternative employment. Again, I appreciate this is not PR process, but related in the sense that in order to reduce this risk (and get some control over their lives), people push for PR.

Will be happy to contribute seriously to further development of these ideas. PM me if you think its useful.

Singapore reference info is as follows:

The following categories of foreigners are eligible to applyfor permanent residence:

(a) Spouse and unmarried children (below 21 years old) of aSingapore Citizen

(SC)/SingaporePermanent Resident (SPR)

( Aged Parents of a SC

© P, Q or S work pass holders

(d) Investors/Entrepreneurs

Foreigners residing overseas who are interested to study,work and live in Singapore may apply for in-principle approval for permanentresidence by submitting an application through SMC Management Consultants PteLtd in Singapore provided they satisfy certain guidelines.

http://www.ica.gov.s...151#eligibility

Edited September 6, 2010 by aurelius

[wolf5370]

Hi there, please don't be suspicious, my user name has nothing to do with you guys being seen as animals, I have always used this user ID since 1995 in many forums. I did mention in my previous post that "If you are not married to a British / American and are trying to apply based on your own merits, you are always treated like dogs". In those cases, the person trying to extend his/her visa is already in the US or UK. And yes, I am not lying, the home office is now taking about 6 month to process a simple visa extension, and most Thais who are not married with a British are having quite a difficult time. I am not trying to compare that with your case where you have married a Thai spouse and seeking a PR in Thailand. If I haven't felt that the whole system is failing the expats, and if there isn't a genuine concern, I wouldn't have dared to post a message here.** Therefore, I am interested in hearing your side of the story and see if I could do something about it in my limited capacity. If one keeps moaning about Thailand right here, that wouldn't solve anything other than making you feel even more negative about the country you are in.

**Many Thai online communities are fully aware of the term "farangs at ThaiVisa" used to describe someone for being too eager to pooh-pooh everything about Thailand, and although we acknowledge that there are problems here, you guys haven't got the most enchanting reputation out there. I have asked my friends if they have read ThaiVisa since some of the topics discussed here are related to their work, 3 of them (all of them PhD graduates from the US/UK) said they have visited this forum before but felt depressed reading some of the comments here, so they have stayed away ever since.

Yes it is a real shame that Thais are frightenend away - though I would suggest that this site is much less insulting to our hosts (Thailand) than many other Thai/expat based forums whre the focus is much more myopic and rarely climbs out of the gutter. This forum is also really quite well self-moderated - I don't mean the official mods (although they can be very strict here too) - I am referring to the fact that when a poster does say something inflamatory about Thailand or her people, then many posters will wade in with counter arguements or anti-troll comments. This is why I askled about you user-name - it is also not unkown for new members to claim to be somethibg they are not and start conversations going only to poke-the-fire and watch it all burn later. I am satisfied, personally, by your reply and defense in this regard.

My last post was not in anyway intended to be negative, I was just countering your claim that its harder for Thais in the west. Although there are problems in the west (UK I sited because this is an area I know through experience) - mostly to do with beaurocracy and incompetant staff taking forever to actually do any work - it is not institutional. There is no legalastive barriers designed to make life as hard as possible for people wishing to settle there (assuming a valid reason for doind so - like marriage, time spent living and working there etc) and their families as it appears there is with Thailand. I understand this is what you are trying to address, but watering it down with chalk-and-cheese comparisons is not moving forward.

The plain fact of the matter is that all countries need immigration. It is healthy and it is beneficial - and getting the right mix of skills and abilities, and even fresh ways of doing things, is nothing but a boon. Many countries have realised that. Putting damaging stresses on families here (mixed Thai/farang), or chasing skilled and valuable workers and investors away, is not what is best for any country. Surely, it can not be too difficult to twist the whole concept around politically (the right spin) and show how the right immigration controls, which attract desireable people and strengthen the gene pool (both in terms of expertise in an economic sense and literally), is good for the country. For too long the farang has been the scapegoat - this has done nothing but made your job here that much more difficult - but by showing how Europe and USA benefit from positive immigration - how Indonesia, Taiwan, Vietnam etc have - and how Thailand is continuing to miss out - with the right spin, it could be a political rally point rather than something to slip in under the door. By making farang here partners, we can also buy in to easier. With the ability to work here and live here, I can guarantee there will be an influx of SME's and investors, that will help Thailand move into a position economic power rather than cheap exporter. Look at Japan in the 50's on, Hong Kong after that, Taiwan - all known for beiong cheap manufacturers and cheap exporters - now all economic power houses.

May be the angle is wrong is what I am saying here - maybe we should be a political selling point rather than a scapegoat and a reason to be heckled from the benches.

Whatever - I wish you luck and offer to help you any way I can (work permit restiction not with-standing).

[endure]

The people that I consider my close family are Thai and live here in the UK. None of them have ever gone to university. One of them was in the RTAF as a private, the other was a crane driver. They came to the UK to work in restaurants as waiters and cooks. They, and all their families, are now British citizens. They own restaurants, they own (multiple) houses, they own cars. Their children have benefited from the UK education and health systems. They got where they are by working hard and by being allowed to contribute to the UK without stupid rules about their income or how long they were allowed to stay or whether they were allowed to buy a pocket handkerchief sized piece of land to live on. Admittedly things are slightly more difficult if you wish to become resident or a citizen nowadays but they recently got a work permit for a chef and his wife who, if they work here for the requisite time and take a not too difficult test will become British citizens full stop. Not sort of British citizens, not not quite British citizens, not British citizens without all the rights of British-born British citizens. Just British citizens - oh, and they'll be able to still be Thai citizens too.

[Time Traveller]

Seems this topic is perhaps just wishful thinking. Since the current system for PR / Citizenship is already reasonably fair and not really in need of urgent change. However, the one exception is the ridiculously long processing times for applicants. What is with that? IF there is one thing that needs urgent change it's this. And there is no point to change in these PR/citizenship requirements if no applications ever get processed.

Secondly, I notice that some people complaining about renouncing citizenship to become naturalized Thai citizen. Actually the applicant that doesn't agree to this you must question exactly where do there loyalities lie? Isn't such methods used by international criminals to avoid extraditions? if you want to be Thai citizen why would you want to keep your old citizenship. Since it would imply you want to live & work in Thailand which a Thai citizenship is useful for. Not British or American citizenship. IF you don't want to give up your American citizenship to be come Thai, then please enjoy paying your high taxes in America and just stay in Thailand as a foreigner. Remember some Thai people with dual citizenship have no choice in having dual citizenship, since birth in US automatically makes you American citizen even if they are Thai citizen with Thai parents.

Finally if reform is needed anywhere it should first be to process citizenship applicants for the 100,000 or so stateless people that were born in Thailand and lived here for many years. Bureaucrats need to stop playing public relations games in trying to be better than neighbouring countries and start placing value on the lives of their own people.

[Kron]

Bureaucrats need to stop playing public relations games in trying to be better than neighbouring countries and start placing value on the lives of their own people.

I certainly agree.

I look at what my Mother has compared to my Wife's (Thai) Mother.

My Mother

Pension – Whilst not British she still gets the full pension and a smaller pension from her birth country.

Doctor – She has had the same doctor for years who knows her medical history. He visits her at home

Ambulance – When she had a fall she was able to use a panic alarm (worn around her neck) to call the ambulance, which came within an hour. This alarm is operated by the local council

Food – Delivered to the door – in fact I do her order on the internet here in Thailand

My Wife's Mother

Pension - She gets 500B

Doctors - Does not have one and sees a different one each time. She has to be taken to see a Doctor and to avoid the 5~8 hour wait in the state hospitals I normally pay for her to be seen private.

Ambulance – None (my Brother-in-law died two year back on the way to the hospital in the back of a pick-up)

Food - Friends help here. Her Children have had to move to BK for work.

Sadly in my golden years this is what concerns me so when the time comes I think I will be returning to my home country if things do not improve. The rules associated to my stay are secondary.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Kron