Bangkok Hospital Discharged Severely Ill Patients After UAE Government Refuses To Pay The Bills

[Thai at Heart]

They were trying to get the UAE Embassy into a corner. Months had gone by without resolve and the hospital took it upon themselves to 'make a move'. A very, very wrong one indeed. I'd be curious to know who sent the letter from the patient that was published, the hospital or embassy? They also sent a copy of the total invoice (with all UAE outstanding debt) to each patient, which seems to me to be against ethics. That's like the hospital giving a patient a copy of their insurer's bills which are not related to that patient. Private company information, no?

The UAE's beef is not about comparing with other private hospitals, it's the fact that the overcharging is due to unexplained items or procedures performed on the invoices. That's where the discrepancies lie, and the hospital's unwillingness to address them. This is how private hospitals screw you. They know that patients are normally not the scientists or medically educated as the doctors are, so you would not bother or dare to contest the treatments.

What the embassy might do as one of the founders of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), is to get other member states to officially cut off ties with the hospital, who like other private hospitals such as Bumrungrad, has banked on this Middle East market for some time.

This is also going to have huge repercussions with the TAT as they have been trying to promote Thailand as a medical hub for some time now. Big black eye. And they deserve it.

This is going to get even juicier in the coming months as this thing rolls out.

Well indeed. Seems like a pretty hi-risk strategy from the hospital.

As a private company, I don't think it could be a very smart decision to make a war with an "Embassy". I wonder if instead of trying to negotiate the problem away, the embassy might end up suing the hospital for false billing. I have a feeling that is maybe where it had got to, and the hospital fought back to "gain" face in some way. This type of extreme reaction in Thailand is, in experience, a reaction to being proved or about to be proved in the wrong.

10,000 medical tourists per year. It all probably adds up to billions of baht a year to the country when flights, hotels and everything is totted up from the UAE alone. Of course, Kasit will have to get involved now and dig out his globe to work out where the UAE is.

[ukrules]

The solution here is simple. Stop sending patients to this hospital and never send any more, send them to a different hospital. Make them pay for their transgressions.

[jfchandler]

Amazing Thailand, Hub of Hospitals Kicking Elderly Patients to the Street

I know it's not quite catchy yet, but I'm working on the wording... Anyone want to call TAT???

[Buchholz]

A kick to the curb is better than a kick to the head, but only marginally.

[jfchandler]

The hospital had tried that already, but the bills still didn't get paid... So the next step was to the street!

[Bagwan]

Bumrungrad came up with the perfect scheme. Get the Arabs to ante up the dosh, get the Yanks to build and run the place, then scam the Arabs who provided the dosh in the first place. Then brag to any who would listen what a first class place it is. Well for the Thai management and doctors it is.

[Buchholz]

Bangkok Dusit Medical shares up 7 pct on earnings outlook

BANGKOK, Sept 13 - Shares in Thailand's largest hospital operator, Bangkok Dusit Medical Services Pcl <BGH.BK>, jumped more than 7 percent to a two-year high on Monday on expectations of strong earnings for the third quarter.

Continues:

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20100913/tbs-bangkokdusit-shares-7318940.html

Reuters - 30 minutes ago

Bangkok Dusit Medical Services Public Company Limited is a Thailand-based company engaged in hospital business and hospital-related operations. It operates four major hospital groups, including Bangkok Hospitals, Samitivej Hospitals, BNH Hospital and the Royal Hospitals with 19 medical facilities.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=BAK:BGH

[Dakhar]

In relative terms, 200 Baht is like nearly an Americans idea of 100 USD. Fifty baht for a cotton ball is like 25 USD in relative terms. I would say in relative terms this is an exhorbitant fee structure. If you want to charge American rates, or in relative terms American rates, you darn sure better deliver quality.

Haha what? You might want to brush up on your economics there, because in "relative terms" you are 100% wrong.

There are some things like standard medical service quality and costs that are pretty standard.

Also if you can't afford to pony up 200 baht for a medical visit you are skint and should probably borrow some money from your relatives for a plane ticket home.

250 Baht = average days labor for a Thai

100 USD = average days labor for an American

So a 250 Baht fee for a routine visit etc, I'd say thats steep for this economy.

I never stated I could not afford a 200 baht medical visit but nice attempt of a vieled insult.

[RHCP]

I too have had nothing but problems with Bangkok Hospital and will now never ever go to them.

I think their number one priority to to operate on your wallet, and do as little as possible to care for your illness or condition.

Absolutely disgusting place.  Stay away.

I agree with what you say above concerning their unethical practices and money motivation based on my own experience and of others which is why I advise anyone who asks for a recommendation to avoid the place.

[kuffki]

I too have had nothing but problems with Bangkok Hospital and will now never ever go to them.

I think their number one priority to to operate on your wallet, and do as little as possible to care for your illness or condition.

Absolutely disgusting place. Stay away.

I agree with what you say above concerning their unethical practices and money motivation based on my own experience and of others which is why I advise anyone who asks for a recommendation to avoid the place.

Its just a business, privately owned Thai business..

My only complained with them is when i had my surgery, something went wrong and i was not recovering i was told that they can do again, but i have to pay the full costs again possibly less 10%. discount

Finding a lawyer did not give any good results, because no one in Thailand wanted to take on Bangkok Hospital for some reason.

PS. 1 very important thing though, prices quoted for surgery when i was going to pay was almost half to what was charged when International Insurance paid.(ie price if i paid was going to be 250k, but when insurance asked for a quote to cover the surgery, price was 350k and in the end insurance ended up paying around 390k)

So just like many Thai business, when they can over charge and get away with it, they do.

PPS. I did con contact insurance company and advised them that they were over charged, but they did not seem to care and asked me to go get all sorts of paperwork etc etc etc. which i of course i was not going to do their work for them, so BKK Hospital got away with it and clearly has the same policy with all others

Edited September 13, 2010 by kuffki

[maccaroni man]

i look at this from a business point of view, because having a major client that is far behind in payment is a situation that happens far to often. for the business the cost of do not stop, and in this situation the cost were mounting rapidly yet their was no form of relief from the account, now past due 20m baht. that is more than 600,000 dollars and going up daily. So as a business with share holders to account to when do you draw the line and say enough is enough? the head aches from dealing with an account like this are enough to motivate closing the acct alone, the money which who knows if it will ever be paid is an other issue. So the question becomes do we cut our losses or hope that we get paid and turn the account around. At half a million dollars past due I start getting ready to take the loss. I do not feel sorry for the UAE and I do not put the responsibility on the hospital to provide high cost free medical care. If there is a problem with billing make some sort of payment in good faith and work out the details along the way but no payment is not a solution either.

[jfchandler]

Macaroni, you're seemingly to conveniently ignore the underlying issue for the dispute, which was the allegation that the hospital was overbilling and falsely billing the patients/providers involved.

I don't know what the truth of that matter is. But likewise, you have no basis to assume that all the amounts in question were all legitimately billed by the hospital and owed by the patients/providers.

Based on the news reports thus far, it's not quite as simple a matter as a clearly unpaid bill.

[maccaroni man]

Macaroni, you're seemingly to conveniently ignore the underlying issue for the dispute, which was the allegation that the hospital was overbilling and falsely billing the patients/providers involved.

I don't know what the truth of that matter is. But likewise, you have no basis to assume that all the amounts in question were all legitimately billed by the hospital and owed by the patients/providers.

Based on the news reports thus far, it's not quite as simple a matter as a clearly unpaid bill.

i was not saying that it only about an unpaid bill, i understand that there was billing issue in play, but once again as these are all long term patients why not make some sort of payment to help off set the running cost and iron out the details or disput along the way but to simply stop making payments land let the amount grow beyound half a million dollars???? what would you do? I cut my losses and look for new business.

[Flow]

This hospital should be avoided at all cost. I was ordered to stay there for 3D/2N for.... nothing. Didn't get any better in fact my condition got worse and when I confronted the doctor with the fact that there was no improvement, she said: "you don't want to get better - it's all about the patient's attitude". Ridiculous. She came to see me in my room, spent no more than 1 min "how are you feeling?" was her question each time she came.

Bangkok hospital charged me 10,000 Baht something for in-patient doctor's visits. So that was 20,000 for the two visits, and another 22,000 Baht for, I kid you not, 3 pills. I could have bought myself outside for 20 may be 30 Baht? I can go on and on. Do they overcharge their patients at Bangkok Hostpital? YES. My total bill was 60,000 something Baht.

[hughben]

This hospital should be avoided at all cost. I was ordered to stay there for 3D/2N for.... nothing. Didn't get any better in fact my condition got worse and when I confronted the doctor with the fact that there was no improvement, she said: "you don't want to get better - it's all about the patient's attitude". Ridiculous. She came to see me in my room, spent no more than 1 min "how are you feeling?" was her question each time she came.

Bangkok hospital charged me 10,000 Baht something for in-patient doctor's visits. So that was 20,000 for the two visits, and another 22,000 Baht for, I kid you not, 3 pills. I could have bought myself outside for 20 may be 30 Baht? I can go on and on. Do they overcharge their patients at Bangkok Hostpital? YES. My total bill was 60,000 something Baht.

Why were you 'ordered' to stay there?

[zaza]

Soon we'd read the same news article,but it'll be about Kuwait, because they were warned by this "overcharging scam" and decided to hire the same "accounting consultant agency", things are not so pleasant for Bangkok Hospital, since the GCC embassies are opting to boycott it.

[Thai at Heart]

Soon we'd read the same news article,but it'll be about Kuwait, because they were warned by this "overcharging scam" and decided to hire the same "accounting consultant agency", things are not so pleasant for Bangkok Hospital, since the GCC embassies are opting to boycott it.

If this is true, and that other embassies may follow suit, good for them.

If it is true, what odds fraud charges? Snowballs and hel_l come to mind.

[tomyummer]

Macaroni, you're seemingly to conveniently ignore the underlying issue for the dispute, which was the allegation that the hospital was overbilling and falsely billing the patients/providers involved.

I don't know what the truth of that matter is. But likewise, you have no basis to assume that all the amounts in question were all legitimately billed by the hospital and owed by the patients/providers.

Based on the news reports thus far, it's not quite as simple a matter as a clearly unpaid bill.

i was not saying that it only about an unpaid bill, i understand that there was billing issue in play, but once again as these are all long term patients why not make some sort of payment to help off set the running cost and iron out the details or disput along the way but to simply stop making payments land let the amount grow beyound half a million dollars???? what would you do? I cut my losses and look for new business.

You're both right, however from what I understand, the UAE has been with this hospital for a few years and has always cleared their bills. Let them pile up, clear them, let them pile up, clear them. But when they started to do their own investigation through a neutral 3rd party and found discrepancies in some cases (not all) and confronted the hospital, the embassy was ignored and pretty much swept under the rug while the UAE patients were still lying in bed. So there was a business relationship standing for years before these cases came up. For the Bangkok Hospital the Middle Eastern market was/is their bread and butter to the point that they actually built a separate hospital wing just for this market. If they cut their losses here, and the other GCC countries follow suit, then their business model is in serious jeopardy. Plus, they could kiss that Abu Dhabi 'Royal Bangkok Hospital' goodbye. Trying to penetrate other markets with what's been posted on this board along with the negative press overseas and soon in Thailand, they could kiss their greedy butts goodbye, unless the Thai local market will suffice.

[Thai at Heart]

Macaroni, you're seemingly to conveniently ignore the underlying issue for the dispute, which was the allegation that the hospital was overbilling and falsely billing the patients/providers involved.

I don't know what the truth of that matter is. But likewise, you have no basis to assume that all the amounts in question were all legitimately billed by the hospital and owed by the patients/providers.

Based on the news reports thus far, it's not quite as simple a matter as a clearly unpaid bill.

i was not saying that it only about an unpaid bill, i understand that there was billing issue in play, but once again as these are all long term patients why not make some sort of payment to help off set the running cost and iron out the details or disput along the way but to simply stop making payments land let the amount grow beyound half a million dollars???? what would you do? I cut my losses and look for new business.

You're both right, however from what I understand, the UAE has been with this hospital for a few years and has always cleared their bills. Let them pile up, clear them, let them pile up, clear them. But when they started to do their own investigation through a neutral 3rd party and found discrepancies in some cases (not all) and confronted the hospital, the embassy was ignored and pretty much swept under the rug while the UAE patients were still lying in bed. So there was a business relationship standing for years before these cases came up. For the Bangkok Hospital the Middle Eastern market was/is their bread and butter to the point that they actually built a separate hospital wing just for this market. If they cut their losses here, and the other GCC countries follow suit, then their business model is in serious jeopardy. Plus, they could kiss that Abu Dhabi 'Royal Bangkok Hospital' goodbye. Trying to penetrate other markets with what's been posted on this board along with the negative press overseas and soon in Thailand, they could kiss their greedy butts goodbye, unless the Thai local market will suffice.

Do you have any idea how big the discrepancies are?

[kuffki]

There is also little more at stake here. Surely the big Insurance company's would of heard about this.

Bangkok Hospital is one of very few on their approved list. So should they prove that BKK Hospital has been over charging, they may also loose a large number of other patience with International Travel Insurance. No doubt some local Insurers will jump on the opportunity as well to claim some money back ro deny some claims

[SiamRose]

The hospital had tried that already, but the bills still didn't get paid... So the next step was to the street!

The hospital could always have tried not overcharging their patients.

[TAWP]

The 7 million Baht heli-pad has to be paid somehow...

[maccaroni man]

Macaroni, you're seemingly to conveniently ignore the underlying issue for the dispute, which was the allegation that the hospital was overbilling and falsely billing the patients/providers involved.

I don't know what the truth of that matter is. But likewise, you have no basis to assume that all the amounts in question were all legitimately billed by the hospital and owed by the patients/providers.

Based on the news reports thus far, it's not quite as simple a matter as a clearly unpaid bill.

i was not saying that it only about an unpaid bill, i understand that there was billing issue in play, but once again as these are all long term patients why not make some sort of payment to help off set the running cost and iron out the details or disput along the way but to simply stop making payments land let the amount grow beyound half a million dollars???? what would you do? I cut my losses and look for new business.

You're both right, however from what I understand, the UAE has been with this hospital for a few years and has always cleared their bills. Let them pile up, clear them, let them pile up, clear them. But when they started to do their own investigation through a neutral 3rd party and found discrepancies in some cases (not all) and confronted the hospital, the embassy was ignored and pretty much swept under the rug while the UAE patients were still lying in bed. So there was a business relationship standing for years before these cases came up. For the Bangkok Hospital the Middle Eastern market was/is their bread and butter to the point that they actually built a separate hospital wing just for this market. If they cut their losses here, and the other GCC countries follow suit, then their business model is in serious jeopardy. Plus, they could kiss that Abu Dhabi 'Royal Bangkok Hospital' goodbye. Trying to penetrate other markets with what's been posted on this board along with the negative press overseas and soon in Thailand, they could kiss their greedy butts goodbye, unless the Thai local market will suffice.

well put, imho it is an intersting business model to watch.

[scorecard]

Last time I was there (Phuket Bangkok Hospital, about three years ago) I asked the cashier for an explanation of the "Hospital Fee 200 Baht". The only reply I got "Sorry, no understand" and when I asked for the clarification in Thai she just grabbed my money and said nothing at all. Never again

I have another version of this from a hospital on Sri Ayuthha Road, Bkk.

Cashier verbally announces the total, not politness at all.

I ask to see the deailed bill: 'not understand', 'cannot', not allowed' 'you pay first'.

I refuse to hand over my credit card.

My Thai son insists on seeing a detailed bill.

Cashier tells my son he is rude and should have respect for hospital staff.

Son insists and tells cashier 'no detelaied bill, no payment'.

Bill now handed over with nasty attitude.

Son ticks two items and asks for explanation. Wrong, should be on another patients bill. Initially cashier claims they cannot adjust the bill. Son tells cashier to fix it or he'll call the police.

Now go through same routine every time, same beligerent attitude, especially from one male cashier who is more concerned with how beautiful his suit is then customer attention.

Shame because medical care is quite good.

Last time the same routine with demanding a detailed bill started a run with next several patienst also demaning detailed invoices.

[hyperdimension]

Is there some kind of consumer watchdog or regulatory body which we can complain to and who would take appropriate action against businesses who have unfair practices?

Those hospitals who are known to overcharge should be boycotted. Let market forces make them suffer if there is no other solution.

Which hospitals in Bangkok charge fairly and has high quality medical service?

[rubl]

Is there some kind of consumer watchdog or regulatory body which we can complain to and who would take appropriate action against businesses who have unfair practices?

Those hospitals who are known to overcharge should be boycotted. Let market forces make them suffer if there is no other solution.

Which hospitals in Bangkok charge fairly and has high quality medical service?

There is a "Foundation for Consumers" with secretary-general Saree Ongsomwang. currently they try to get the draft Medical Malpractice Victim Protection Bill through parliament. Objections from the Medical Council heavy, modifications proposed. In progress, will take a wee bit more time

[TAWP]

I boycott several if these hospitals already.

But the problem is that many foreigners here are deluding themselves that going to the most expensive ones automatically mean that they are receiving the best treatment.

While in effect that might not be completely wrong, they could get the same treatment for much less if the dared to look outside the 'labels' or 'names'.

[maccaroni man]

I boycott several if these hospitals already.

But the problem is that many foreigners here are deluding themselves that going to the most expensive ones automatically mean that they are receiving the best treatment.

While in effect that might not be completely wrong, they could get the same treatment for much less if the dared to look outside the 'labels' or 'names'.

bummangrad is not the cheapest but it does have USA board certified doctors which means the doctors should be able to communicate and have had international practice, the facility also has the most up to date equipment, the rooms are on the same level as a 3 star hotel so i think it is more about what a person wants and is willing to pay for more than price alone.

[tomyummer]

Do you have any idea how big the discrepancies are?

Sorry, don't know the cases well enough. Would have to ask that 3rd party arbitrating company. But I did hear that not all the cases had faults. Some invoices were legit.

[mca]

But the problem is that many foreigners here are deluding themselves that going to the most expensive ones automatically mean that they are receiving the best treatment.

While in effect that might not be completely wrong, they could get the same treatment for much less if the dared to look outside the 'labels' or 'names'.

I do understand people's concern about receiving the best treatment. After all our health is paramount. My only experience with hospital in LOS was about 5 years ago when I had real problems with my tonsils. Raging fever and I felt like I was dying. Went to see the doc ( trained in the UK), he put me into a private room at Khon Kaen Central Hospital which is a government one. TV, not bad food, set up an extra bed so my wife could stay the night, nurses checking on me all the time and the doc came to see me about 4 times a day between his rounds or whenever. Had me on IV plus medication for 3 days until I felt a million percent better.

Total bill incl meds 3500 baht. I aren't arguing with that.

Edited September 15, 2010 by mca