Latest Developments At Cmu Thai Course

[elbicho]

My teacher at CMU called me earlier if asked if wanted to continue our Thai course. I said yes and she later called me back saying that it might be possible to restart the course but the students would have to pay more money to the language institute. I am not sure if this payment would go to the bald headed Australian dude or the Thai director Rien (sp?). I am assuming to the Thai guy but I am not sure. Has anybody else heard anything?

[wynzlo]

I wish the mods would unlock the original topic in the visa forum. They've been deliberating for 2 days already and I'm sure there are some folks with updates on the situation.

[realthaideal]

Always best to figure out which moderators are monitoring the thread and PM one of them directly. Likely to get faster results, and no spanking as per TV rules.

[wehugheog]

Don't know exactly. So I called my credit card company and had the funds deposited back into my account. That's the end of it for me.

[RogerL]

I had contacted the US Consulate earlier about my concerns regarding cancellation of programs at LICMU. The following is the reply I received today from them.

Thanks for the update. Since you’re here on a retirement visa, you don’t have the same visa troubles that some of the other Language Institute students have now. That’s good, but there’s the issue of the money that you spent for the CEP. We understand that Dr. Kay is working on refunds for everyone affected by this. If you haven’t already, please contact him at //e-mail removed as per forum rules//. Alternatively, if you paid by credit card, you could contact your card issuer to dispute the charge (for failure to receive the services for which you paid). We understand that some U.S. citizens in your situation are doing that.

Regarding volunteer opportunities, we don’t have any additional information to offer. The Language Institute programs were the sole option we knew about. Unfortunately, Thai immigration considers volunteer work to be the same as paid work, and therefore illegal, without a work permit. We advise that you not undertake anything that might affect your immigration status.

Sincerely,

American Citizen Services Unit

U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai

Earlier this week I sent a letter to VISA Corp In the United States contesting payment to LICMU. I contested that I paid for services that were not delivered by LICMU and that LICMU has refused to provide a refund. My position is I paid LICMU (not IUS)and this is reflected in my credit card charge. The mail to VISA was quite bulky with support materials taken from postings on the VISA thread (now closed) and copies of official LICMU webpages.

The US Consulate confirmed my interpretation of Thai law that the closure of the Cultural Exchange Program has effectively closed the door on the only eway that existed to legally volunteer in the Thai community for holders of a retirement visa.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Tywais
Edited for better readability & removed e-mail address

[Mapguy]

Thank you, RogerL. Interesting post --- for more than one reason.

There is really a simple problem confirmed of conflict with Thai law for those holding a retirement visa. If you take the time to check with the Ministry of Labor web site, it is very clear that voluntarism by retirees is not permitted. A sad truth. The government does not seem to want to budge on this issue even after having it directly addressed by the ambassadors of the UK and USA (perhaps one other). This problem seems to have been recognized by CMU at a late date.

There has been a lot of speculation about why this particular route to staying in Thailand was closed by CMU regardless of the retirement visa problem. IMO it ultimately looks like concern by CMU that it doesn't want to get accused of scamming immigration authorities or permitting enrollees to use but abuse the program. The one-year language study visas that are offerred openly by many language schools are notorious for being abused.

And, incidentally, IMO, the letter from the US Consulate in Chiang Mai is remarkably thoughtful as well as being articulate and accurate. Why, indeed, should a consulate of a foreign country get involved with this at all ?!

All this is said with appreciation for those who enrolled in the LICMU programs with good intentions, but please forgive me if I appear a little cynical about the motivations of some people. RogerL is certainly not one of them.

[heybruce]

First, nobody with any brains will pay 30,000 baht just to get an Ed visa. There are cheaper legitimate schools, and in the past there were not so legitimate schools who would essentially sell an Ed visa for one third that price. I don't know if these schools are still around.

At CMU classes did shrink over time as students found the course more difficult or time consuming than they anticipated, became distracted by other things, or had to return to their home country. I assume the same thing happens at all other schools that offer Ed visas for one year Thai language courses. This does not justify ending classes for all students. The one's who are complaining are the ones who were attending classes, or had their classes canceled before they had the chance to attend.

Teachers who have enough students who are willing to resume classes are trying to restart classes. I don't know if any have restarted yet. I don't know if the students will be required to pay anything.

LICMU is saying these classes will be without the Ed visa, but unless they want to tear the visa page out of every students passport, I don't see how they can take away the Ed visas already issued. I read somewhere on the now terminated thread in the Visa and Immigration section of ThaiVisa that CMU sent a letter to Chiang Mai Immigration telling them the Ed visas CMU had signed for are no longer valid. I don't know if this is true, and if it is I don't know if Immigration will take the trouble of checking the origins of every every Ed visa of everyone who comes in for the 90 day notice. I suspect not, but if anyone does I hope they'll post that information somewhere where other students can find it. I would be very surprised if students who did a Mae Sai run every 90 days instead of an Immigration check-in encountered any trouble, but you need a re-entry permit with your Ed visa to do this.

Note to anyone about to get a one year visa of any type, it's worth the extra expense to get a re-entry permit.

[jayinoz]

A mate had his ED issued as he was to do the course... no issues from Immigration. He simply been playing around- doing whatever- now plans it as a 1 yr holiday and may get all his money back. So in affect he feels he will end up paying nothing for ED Visa. Yet currently he is 30K out of pocket. He would not even dream of paying more to go do the course- he simply wants his money back. As he said that will pay for his accommodation for 6 months in a Studio Condo.

I think we all know that many whom get an ED Visa will never ever see out the whole course, I hear many turn up for the first day then are never to be heard of again. Yet the schools do not care if they have been paid.

I think CMU realised that this ED system will fall apart in the future as some sort of scam to gain entry in Thailand long term, without so many exits in and out the country. Similar to people being discovered to be border crossing every 30 days for 20+ odd years. Thus 15 days with limits to gain a certain number.

Now we have the ED Visa- you can get a 3 yr one for approx 40K bt I seen advertised (That 13K pa). Plus you can learn the Thai language and culture whenever u wish. Not that you could ever do anything like work, etc on it. But most whom stay here do not care.

CMU did not want to be put into this category- yet they went about cancelling the whole thing WAY TOO LATE.

My mate simply wants his 30K bt back to live off his free Visa- whilst he party's. Thanks CMU

I understand 'some' may have been here to purely study Thai in a low cost of living society- sure sounds like a good idea. Yet all these ED Visa are bound to be abused IMO. Lets face it.

[jackr]

Don't know exactly. So I called my credit card company and had the funds deposited back into my account. That's the end of it for me.

This is the best option IMO and then wash your hands of the place as they have of you. At the end of the day, they don't want you there and are just waiting for folks to make themselves unavailable so as to avoid refunding it seems. If you paid by other means, try and hang in there but don't go throwing more money at them... what a bloody cheek!

[jayinoz]

Remember you only have 3 months to dispute a non service claim (From the date you paid) and gain your refund- if paid by credit card.

My mate put his dispute in and they state he will have the funds for him within 2 weeks. As they heard of this issue. So he happy- getting 30K back and got the 1 yr ED Visa. All ends well for him.

[NancyL]

The rules for the time limit on filing a claim against a credit card charge vary depending upon the institution that issues the card. Our Visa card is issued by our U.S. credit union and they state a 60 day limit on their website. When we called them about Hubby's CMU CEP charge they said that actually it's a "120 day" rule from their Visa card source, but they (the credit union) impose a 60 day rule for reasons that aren't quite clear. They encouraged us to file even though the charge was a bit more than 120 days prior. The lady at the credit union said she's seen credit given after 120 days in situations where the customer has documentation that they've tried to resolve the problem with the merchant and/or the customer paid for something like a 1-yr contract and service was terminated prematurely by the merchant. That would seem to be the case here.

I also suspect that if you file a claim against a merchant who has a recent history of many claims, then they are also going to be more likely to "charge-back" the merchant and give you your refund.

The more people that file, the better. Please file a dispute claim even if the charge was more than 120 days ago. You deserve at least a partial refund.

[heybruce]

I just received an e-mail from my (former) Thai language teacher. LICMU is willing to let students resume class if they will pay half of their teachers pay. CMU will provide the classroom. I assume LICMU is still maintaining that all the Ed visas it signed for are no longer valid after the end of this month, but it's my understanding that after the visa has been properly stamped, initialed, etc. in the passport, it's validity is up to the Immigration people, not CMU.

If enough students are willing to resume class the price won't be much, but I greatly resent being told I must pay again for something I already paid for in full.

[RogerL]

Idiom:

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me

Something to reflact on in thinking about the recent events at LICMU.

[thaiguy55]

I received the same email from my teacher. The teacher asked why students had to pay extra (~ 3k baht each in the case of our class for 5 more months), for a course they already payed 30k baht to enroll in. The LICMU manager said that the course had 2 parts - part 1 was the 1yr course ran by IUS that the students will get a refund for asap. Part 2 was the new remaining 5 months of the course that the students pay half the teachers wage for the remaining hours and receive a certification at the end.

It seems like a pretty good deal offered by CMU and I would definitely take it if I could believe they would honor their part of the deal. Obviously, that's not the case.

Edited October 8, 2010 by thaiguy55

[Flatouthruthefog]

Idiom:

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me

Something to reflact on in thinking about the recent events at LICMU.

Agree.

The Language Institute CMU has issued a printed public notice that this whole mess (my phrase not theirs) is "now under police investigation".

No other new info except that "a number of participants had violated their terms and conditions of enrolment and were not undertaking their studies."

This public notice went to all local Hon Consuls and obviously not to thaivisa. I am surprised that this has not been publicised here before.

The news story is on a reliable local website which of course can't be named here. But if you google the phrase 'mychiangmai' and ignore the one with all the pretty photos, you'll get it.

I don't know how this might be done, but as the site carries a lot of interesting little local stories you don't see elsewhere, George might like to consider it as a regular news source.

[thaiboy999]

Let’s say you eat at a Thai restaurant. You have ordered and paid for the food in full, which after two hours of waiting, is still not delivered. You ask for a refund, the director of the restaurant refuses, giving all kinds of contradictory and frankly irrelevant excuses, one of them being “the cashier who gets 40% of the cut has overspent and is now under criminal investigation for other things…” As a customer of this restaurant, not of the cashier, do you care about these excuses from the director? A even more important question is, after such bitter experience at this restaurant, why would anyone even consider for one nanosecond to eat at this restaurant ever again?

Idiom:

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me

Something to reflact on in thinking about the recent events at LICMU.

[Loaded]

...The Language Institute CMU has issued a printed public notice that this whole mess (my phrase not theirs) is "now under police investigation".

No other new info except that "a number of participants had violated their terms and conditions of enrolment and were not undertaking their studies."

This public notice went to all local Hon Consuls and obviously not to thaivisa. I am surprised that this has not been publicised here before...

This was the thread in the visa section of Thaivisa discussing events at the LI:

This is a link to the original announcement from the LI posted on Thaivisa:

page__view__findpost__p__3913993

[Loaded]

Today's announcement from the CMU Language Institute:

Language Institute Chiang Mai University Announcement

Subject: Notice Regarding International University Service (IUS)

..........................................................

International University Service (IUS) has been advertising on its websites including: www.teflcmu.com , www.studythaicmu.com , www.exchangecmu.com , www.lecturecmu.com and in other types of media, therefore, students have understood that IUS was previously part of Language Institute Chiang Mai University. In addition, many people have continued to enquire about International University Service (IUS) matters.

To clarify, Language Institute Chiang Mai University wishes to inform the following information:

1.

IUS has never been officially approved as a business entity at Language Institute Chiang Mai University.

2.

IUS previously used Language Institute Chiang Mai University's facility and offices to organize language courses, and international businesses, and as of now IUS have already moved off Language Institute Chiang Mai University premises.

3.

IUS had performed similar activities to those of Language Institute Chiang Mai University, but Language Institute Chiang Mai University did not have any involvement. In addition, IUS used Language Institute Chiang Mai University's name and logo to operate which was illegal. Chiang Mai University has already lodged this issue with legal investigators in order to prosecute the responsible offender(s).

4.

Language Institute Chiang Mai University affirms that any actions performed by IUS do not involve Language Institute Chiang Mai University, and are out of Language Institute Chiang Mai University's responsibility.

5.

With this announcement, Language Institute Chiang Mai University demands International University Service (IUS) to immediately cease and desist all activities using Language Institute Chiang Mai University's name in any of their activities. If such action continues, Language Institute Chiang Mai University will be left with little recourse but to issue legal proceedings with those offender(s).

6.

Any person wishes to contact IUS, please directly contact:

Mrs. Sansanee Wannangkoon CEO of IUS Tel. 084-0422727

Mr. Matthew John Kay Director of IUS Tel. 084-8044188

Source: http://www.li.chiangmai.ac.th/

[cmsally]

Isn't this rather shooting themselves in the foot; seeing as the receipts issued were under the CMULI name. Then of course if they wish to completely sever links, I would imagine the subject of money already taken needs to be broached. The fact that CMU took all the money (that's how it would appear on paper), surely makes them responsible whether they choose to keep IUS or not.

Same as giving all your money to a contractor to build a house and him telling you to get your money back from the plumber for shoddy pipework. Can't see much of a difference.

Students contracts are with CMULI not IUS.

[Loaded]

Isn't this rather shooting themselves in the foot; seeing as the receipts issued were under the CMULI name. Then of course if they wish to completely sever links, I would imagine the subject of money already taken needs to be broached. The fact that CMU took all the money (that's how it would appear on paper), surely makes them responsible whether they choose to keep IUS or not.

Same as giving all your money to a contractor to build a house and him telling you to get your money back from the plumber for shoddy pipework. Can't see much of a difference.

Students contracts are with CMULI not IUS.

Were the receipts issued by CMU LI or staff from IUS?

[cmsally]

From reading the thread I understood it to be CMULI (receipts).

What's the betting that Thai law is not to hot on liability of the pricipal entity awarding the contract, when it comes to a job done by their contractor.

However if they were profit sharing I wonder what the exact relationship was.

[Loaded]

From reading the thread I understood it to be CMULI (receipts).

What's the betting that Thai law is not to hot on liability of the pricipal entity awarding the contract, when it comes to a job done by their contractor.

However if they were profit sharing I wonder what the exact relationship was.

I believe IUS staff ran the courses and IUS processed payments either through their staff or their websites. I have seen an IUS course receipt and it has the CMU LI logo. Point 3 from the LI's announcement:

"3.

IUS had performed similar activities to those of Language Institute Chiang Mai University, but Language Institute Chiang Mai University did not have any involvement. In addition, IUS used Language Institute Chiang Mai University's name and logo to operate which was illegal. Chiang Mai University has already lodged this issue with legal investigators in order to prosecute the responsible offender(s)."

Edited October 8, 2010 by Loaded

[eek]

CMU seem to be just wanting to find any way to wash their hands of everything rather than taking some responsibility for what happened. The courses ran for a pretty long period, so its not like the courses were suddenly taking place without them knowing. To just say that its nothing to do with them, so goodbye, is unprofessional. Im shocked at CMU's attitude towards students in this.

[wynzlo]

CMU seem to be just wanting to find any way to wash their hands of everything rather than taking some responsibility for what happened. The courses ran for a pretty long period, so its not like the courses were suddenly taking place without them knowing. To just say that its nothing to do with them, so goodbye, is unprofessional. Im shocked at CMU's attitude towards students in this.

I agree completely. The most disappointing part of all this is how students have been treated (or more accurately, not treated). I tried to give CMU the benefit of the doubt after someone mentioned they may not even have contact info for the students enrolled in these programs. However, I've contacted LICMU a number of times and provided my info, but not a peep. I guess that would be admitting they were aware of IUS activities? Very unfortunate.

[cmsally]

Maybe someone who has an actual receipt or credit card statement can mention who actually the money was processed by. I think by law that is who should be taking responsibility.

If CMU are beating around the bush its a fairly sure bet that contractual law isn't too watertight. Bet they forgot about the credit card pay back option though

[newbie001]

IF the CMU TEFL is actually unrelated to the LICMU then why did the teachers get paid by LICMU (I saw some of their paystubs a few years ago)? Unless this is a recent division. When they first started the TEFL the teachers/trainers were paid directly from LICMU. The TEFL was also accredited through CMU and CMU students that took the course got credit.

The contact information provided gives the name of the old director of LICMU. Sansanee started LICMU 6 or 7 years ago.

This current letter looks to be nothing more than a whitewash and cover up. They are trying to hang the blame on someone else. Smells like the new director of LICMU doesn't want to take any responsibility but CMU did benefit from the money brought in from the students getting screwed. Most likely they just got tired of IUS taking 50% of the profits and tried to find someone to do it for cheaper. However they seem to have failed and are now covering up by blaming IUS.

I wonder how long ago this IUS was separated from LICMU because they were one entity a few years back.

I am certain that there will be a few court cases about this.

[Loaded]

I hadn't heard of IUS until all this blew up early August. There was no mention on their websites of this entity, so it was clearly presented as a CMU or CMU LI product. However, directors changed recently and maybe so did policy.

Is the Sansanee mentioned by CMU LI as the CEO of IUS the same Sansanee who was the previous director of the LI before she resigned/retired and Rien took over?

Edited October 8, 2010 by Loaded

[thaiguy55]

I have 2 receipts because I paid in 2 installments. Both receipts have CMULI logo in the top left corner, and a blue Language Institute stamp.

[thaiguy55]

Also (someone correct me if I'm wrong), when I signed up for the course back in March, I'm sure I did it directly through the Language Institute website.

[Loaded]

Also (someone correct me if I'm wrong), when I signed up for the course back in March, I'm sure I did it directly through the Language Institute website.

Which URL?

This is what CMU LI said about websites:

"International University Service (IUS) has been advertising on its websites including: www.teflcmu.com , www.studythaicmu.com , www.exchangecmu.com , www.lecturecmu.com and in other types of media, therefore, students have understood that IUS was previously part of Language Institute Chiang Mai University. In addition, many people have continued to enquire about International University Service (IUS) matters."

This is the 'official' CMU LI website:

http://www.li.chiangmai.ac.th/

Edited October 8, 2010 by Loaded