Latest Developments At Cmu Thai Course

[ha55ha]

My Thai language class only stopped for 1 week during all of this. Everything seems back to normal now apart from there being way less westerners hanging around the Language Institute

[Tywais]

I'm not sure under what authority Dr. Matt could be signing visa letters, since typically these are/were signed by the President of CMU (or the presidents of other universities, etc.)

The director or head of a department has to sign off on the letter before it goes to the president's office.

[heybruce]

LICMU's Thai language classes reinstated.

At least two groups: Tue/Thu and Sat/Sun.

With ED visa support.

Does this mean support for new Ed visas, or reinstatement, if that's possible, of the original Ed visas? Does the student have to commit to a certain number of classes? At what cost? Is Immigration on-board with this?

I read that some of the parties involved in this fiasco are taking CMU to court. Here's a question that can't be answered, but every potential student should consider: If the court case(s) do not go to CMU's liking, will they pull a repeat performance and cancel this new language program and the student's Ed visas?

[Loaded]

...I read that some of the parties involved in this fiasco are taking CMU to court. Here's a question that can't be answered, but every potential student should consider: If the court case(s) do not go to CMU's liking, will they pull a repeat performance and cancel this new language program and the student's Ed visas?

Civil court cases in Thailand take around 2 - 3 years to reach the investigation stage and then a further few months to announce a verdict. Before this there are numerous court dates to submit evidence. Dates are also set for compromise meetings between the plaintiff and the defendant. The court wants a compromise agreement as the investigation stage of any case is time consuming. At this stage the defendant may offer a settlement acceptable to the plaintiff so end of case. The plaintiff has to deposit 2.5% of the amount he or she is claiming plus pay a court fee before the case can proceed. Lawyers cost from 20 - 50K baht for a civil case. It's rare that legal costs are awarded to the winner of the case. If the loser of the first court decides to appeal to the appeal court, add another 3 - 4 years and another lawyer fee to the procedure. If the loser of the appeals court decides to appeal to the supreme court, add a further 4 - 5 years and another lawyer fee to the procedure. If you win the supreme court verdict, the loser often hides his assets and you get nothing.

If you want to nail someone in Thailand and force them to pay compensation, the most effective way is criminal law. Buy a good translation of Thai criminal law, match it to your complaint, go to Phuping Police station (closest to CMU so the one that will deal with criminal complaints). Get an investigation started by the police which will involve the defendant being interviewed at the police station and more than likely the defendant will rush to find a compromise.

Civil law has no teeth, whereas the punishments for breaking criminal law for fraud include prison. That scares the life out of people.

For anyone thinking of using Thai law, remove your emotions from the case and be patient.

The emotional and name-calling responses on this thread may be cathartic to certain people but they are completely pointless as well. For these people my advice is stop crying in the corner and go and do something if you want someone held accountable for events at CMU.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Loaded

[tomartoh]

...I read that some of the parties involved in this fiasco are taking CMU to court. Here's a question that can't be answered, but every potential student should consider: If the court case(s) do not go to CMU's liking, will they pull a repeat performance and cancel this new language program and the student's Ed visas?

Civil court cases in Thailand take around 2 - 3 years to reach the investigation stage and then a further few months to announce a verdict. Before this there are numerous court dates to submit evidence. Dates are also set for compromise meetings between the plaintiff and the defendant. The court wants a compromise agreement as the investigation stage of any case is time consuming. At this stage the defendant may offer a settlement acceptable to the plaintiff so end of case. The plaintiff has to deposit 2.5% of the amount he or she is claiming plus pay a court fee before the case can proceed. Lawyers cost from 20 - 50K baht for a civil case. It's rare that legal costs are awarded to the winner of the case. If the loser of the first court decides to appeal to the appeal court, add another 3 - 4 years and another lawyer fee to the procedure. If the loser of the appeals court decides to appeal to the supreme court, add a further 4 - 5 years and another lawyer fee to the procedure. If you win the supreme court verdict, the loser often hides his assets and you get nothing.

If you want to nail someone in Thailand and force them to pay compensation, the most effective way is criminal law. Buy a good translation of Thai criminal law, match it to your complaint, go to Phuping Police station (closest to CMU so the one that will deal with criminal complaints). Get an investigation started by the police which will involve the defendant being interviewed at the police station and more than likely the defendant will rush to find a compromise.

Civil law has no teeth, whereas the punishments for breaking criminal law for fraud include prison. That scares the life out of people.

For anyone thinking of using Thai law, remove your emotions from the case and be patient.

The emotional and name-calling responses on this thread may be cathartic to certain people but they are completely pointless as well. For these people my advice is stop crying in the corner and go and do something if you want someone held accountable for events at CMU.

For what it is worth in my own experience of the Thai legal system having been involved in a number of court cases. Civil cases do not necessarily have to take a number of years and can be dealt with quickly. I agree that if you can interest the police in a taking up criminal action then that is a good way to go Punishments can be draconian compared to the Uk so not a decision to take lightly. Emergency hearings can be applied for whereby paying 25,000 bahts got me a court hearing in 2 days. I have also used the court of appeal in Bangkok when dissatisfied with a court decision and actions. An appeal has to be dealt with in 30 days and there are further steps can be taken if still dissatisfied. In my case a compromise was reached between me and the courts. It is not impossible for a foreigner to win against Thais in court but you need to be on solid ground., However, you need a really good lawyer who is working for you and not the person you are taking legal procedures against, which can happen

The lawyers have lower standards of ethics and dont compare to the UK. You have to be prepared for various skullduggery bearing in mind it is also who you know and what your connections are and their standing in society. Reading the newspapers of the last week will tell you a lot about Thai legal shenanigans. You wont get too far from reading a book about Thai law you need the expertise of the practitioner.

Taking on a Thai Institution and winning might well be very difficult as in the case of Cmu . I think to take on Cmu would cost a lot of time,. money and aggravation with little, if any reward at the end of the day..

Taking legal actions in Thailand can also be be very risky and on occasions its better to walk away from a situation and live to fight another day and that also applies to the Thais as well.

It would be nice if people who were responsible for the present situation would be held accountable for their actions but who believes that to be likely. Its uncalled for to say that people are crying in the corner without doing anything as it is truly difficult to do much without some good clear direction .. I cannot afford to take on Cmu so will not be going to Phuping police station, but anyone who does go needs to first make sure of their legal status in Thailand

[NancyL]

We check activity on our Visa card every day on-line. Amazingly, today we discovered a credit issued by the Visa card people for the unused portion of Hubby's CEP. We'd filed a complaint with copies of relevant emails about a month ago. His charge was older than the 120 day limit for contesting a claim, so we weren't very hopeful. He asked just for the unused portion of his program (about 75%) and that's how much was credited to our Visa card account.

So, anyone who hasn't filed with their credit card company because their charge was more than 120 days old should reconsider.

[kawtot]

LICMU's Thai language classes reinstated.

At least two groups: Tue/Thu and Sat/Sun.

With ED visa support.

Does this mean support for new Ed visas, or reinstatement, if that's possible, of the original Ed visas? Does the student have to commit to a certain number of classes? At what cost? Is Immigration on-board with this?

I read that some of the parties involved in this fiasco are taking CMU to court. Here's a question that can't be answered, but every potential student should consider: If the court case(s) do not go to CMU's liking, will they pull a repeat performance and cancel this new language program and the student's Ed visas?

I don't think LICMU are taking on new students, and since ED visas must be issued outside of Thailand there are probably no new or reinstated ED visas. Somone please correct me if you know otherwise.

I do know returning students who have - this week and last - received ED visa extensions supported by LICMU.

Compared to before 30th Sep: class times and days are limited, you do a couple more hours per week, there are 2-3 times as many students in a class, but (ttbomk) no extra fees.

[LaraC]

Just wish to say that I was one of the students affected by the cancellations.

For me..i guess i was one of the lucky ones, because i had only 3 months left on my ed visa..however apparently i could have squeezed a further 3 months out of it, giving me 6 months in total.

I was never informed about the cancellation of the course, but of course i found out by turning up and having nothing to go along to.

My visa was stamped until nov 11..but according to this thread, i was considered to be in overstay, even with the stamp (stamp no longer valid because course cancelled).

I wrote to Matt, asking him if he thinks i could get a further 3 months at immigration..his advice was to keep my head down (not mention that i was on the cmu course) and go for it. Thankfully i read this forum, for, i wouldnt want to have been suddenly hit for a 20k baht overstay and told to leave the country...which..of course im not sure would have happened..but seems like a hel_l of a gamble to take. Of course..if i was charged, it would be of no consequence to Matt, but wasnt worth the risk for me.

However, I did wait until near the 11th Nov to leave the country. My heart DID pound quite severely at immigration when I handed over my passport. Especially when i was asked about a re-entry permit! I stated that i wanted to apply for a new visa instead. ..i got through, without mention of anything..or any overstay fee.

I now have a tourist visa in the meantime..because i was concerned about what i read about a member being refused another Ed visa. Im not sure how true that story was, but again, didnt want to take the risk. So, ive broken up my imm O visa with a tourist for now, and will go back to an imm O after it expires.

As for compensation for loss of my course, plus loss of a visa that would have given me a further 6 months in Thailand, as well as the cost of travelling to obtain this new visa..well..i suspect that would be wasted energy even trying to look into that.....

Edited November 16, 2010 by LaraC

[heybruce]

Just wish to say that I was one of the students affected by the cancellations.

For me..i guess i was one of the lucky ones, because i had only 3 months left on my ed visa..however apparently i could have squeezed a further 3 months out of it, giving me 6 months in total.

I was never informed about the cancellation of the course, but of course i found out by turning up and having nothing to go along to.

My visa was stamped until nov 11..but according to this thread, i was considered to be in overstay, even with the stamp (stamp no longer valid because course cancelled).

I wrote to Matt, asking him if he thinks i could get a further 3 months at immigration..his advice was to keep my head down (not mention that i was on the cmu course) and go for it. Thankfully i read this forum, for, i wouldnt want to have been suddenly hit for a 20k baht overstay and told to leave the country...which..of course im not sure would have happened..but seems like a hel_l of a gamble to take. Of course..if i was charged, it would be of no consequence to Matt, but wasnt worth the risk for me.

However, I did wait until near the 11th Nov to leave the country. My heart DID pound quite severely at immigration when I handed over my passport. Especially when i was asked about a re-entry permit! I stated that i wanted to apply for a new visa instead. ..i got through, without mention of anything..or any overstay fee.

I now have a tourist visa in the meantime..because i was concerned about what i read about a member being refused another Ed visa. Im not sure how true that story was, but again, didnt want to take the risk. So, ive broken up my imm O visa with a tourist for now, and will go back to an imm O after it expires.

As for compensation for loss of my course, plus loss of a visa that would have given me a further 6 months in Thailand, as well as the cost of travelling to obtain this new visa..well..i suspect that would be wasted energy even trying to look into that.....

What immigration check-point did you go through? Chiang Mai airport, or some other? I'm a little worried about leaving the country in a few weeks by way of Chiang Mai airport.

[LaraC]

heybruce, via immigration at nong khai.

[Loaded]

I've heard people have crossed at Mae Sai without problem and come back on a 15-day visa exempt permission to stay. IE ED visa cancelled and forgotten by immigration. Has anyone actually done this?

[drfang]

Has anyone been brave enough to front Immigration to do a 90 day report? I am on a "permission to stay" . my next reporting date is early December. I would like to hear from anyone on a "permission to stay" who has reported to Immigration recently, and what was the result.

Thanks

DrF

[kawtot]

We check activity on our Visa card every day on-line. Amazingly, today we discovered a credit issued by the Visa card people for the unused portion of Hubby's CEP. We'd filed a complaint with copies of relevant emails about a month ago. His charge was older than the 120 day limit for contesting a claim, so we weren't very hopeful. He asked just for the unused portion of his program (about 75%) and that's how much was credited to our Visa card account.

So, anyone who hasn't filed with their credit card company because their charge was more than 120 days old should reconsider.

I second this recommendation - have just received refunds for two undelivered courses, for which I paid by credit card 180+ days ago.

[rob101]

CMU has admitted guilt. Knowing that they had no chance of winning in a Thai court of law where all the financial records showing that they are holding 26 million baht of former foreign students money, CMU has now settled out-of-court with 40 students who were bringing a class-action suit against them. If you are owed money by CMU, I would have your legal representative contact them straight away and get your money back!!!

[rob101]

my friend just rang me and told me that they too got 10000 tbh back in cash (they were owed 30000 - but at least it's something!)

[dave2]

rob 101

re ... If you are owed money by CMU, I would have your legal representative contact them straight away and get your money back!!!

thanks for the info but make that 41 coz i still have my original reciept from cmu and will be visiting them in a few days : )

dave2 ... in vientiene ... still sorting out the mess they made for me : (

[rob101]

how did it go?

[Rob9999]

We check activity on our Visa card every day on-line. Amazingly, today we discovered a credit issued by the Visa card people for the unused portion of Hubby's CEP. We'd filed a complaint with copies of relevant emails about a month ago. His charge was older than the 120 day limit for contesting a claim, so we weren't very hopeful. He asked just for the unused portion of his program (about 75%) and that's how much was credited to our Visa card account.

So, anyone who hasn't filed with their credit card company because their charge was more than 120 days old should reconsider.

I second this recommendation - have just received refunds for two undelivered courses, for which I paid by credit card 180+ days ago.

Seems to me that Matt Kay also admitted guilt, as he was the first to actually pay out. They are both very guilty.

[Rob9999]

CMU has admitted guilt. Knowing that they had no chance of winning in a Thai court of law where all the financial records showing that they are holding 26 million baht of former foreign students money, CMU has now settled out-of-court with 40 students who were bringing a class-action suit against them. If you are owed money by CMU, I would have your legal representative contact them straight away and get your money back!!!

Seems to me that Matt Kay also admitted guilt, as he was the first to actually pay out. They are both very guilty.

[dave2]

rob101.

re ... how did it go?

sorry ive been too busy with more important things to do since i got back

im in no hurry .... dave2

[CMX]

Newbie:

None of the above is new. Been posted for ages. Suggestion by Alex Case that there are only two valid authorities or sponsors, Trinity or Cambridge, for TEFL or TESOL courses which somehow make them superior to all others is blatantly misleading. His demeaning of SIT shows an extremely limited view of the subject. I have no interest in this matter except honest reporting, and have no more use for his narrow minded suggestions (there is no accepted authority or measure of excellence in this field, and virtually no research as to outcomes) than I do for a certain "doctorate." Both are blather.

[hagler]

Newbie:

None of the above is new. Been posted for ages. Suggestion by Alex Case that there are only two valid authorities or sponsors, Trinity or Cambridge, for TEFL or TESOL courses which somehow make them superior to all others is blatantly misleading. His demeaning of SIT shows an extremely limited view of the subject. I have no interest in this matter except honest reporting, and have no more use for his narrow minded suggestions (there is no accepted authority or measure of excellence in this field, and virtually no research as to outcomes) than I do for a certain "doctorate." Both are blather.

Actually the most interesting point is the misrepresentation by Matt Kay of his qualifications.

Edited December 20, 2010 by hagler

[kawtot]

That TEFLTastic thread is one of the more one-eyed I've encountered in years.

There are procedures for dealing with (alleged) misrepresentation of qualifications, and I don't think we have seen or heard anything on that front. If we do, I expect it would appear in a new thread, and probably not in the CM Forum.

To causally link that allegation to the (again alleged) program underperformance of the former LICMU is at best presumptuous. Was the old LICMU organisation and their service any good? Plenty of students seem to think so. Plenty of others have expressed mild to serious concerns. LICMU management alleged dodgy internal business practices. Well... the organisation is long gone - and it ain't comin' back - so that discussion may be a time-waster. Let's see if it proceeds to court.

To then tar UniTEFL with this ever-so-thinly-bristled brush risks overloading our bandwagon.

This thread is meant to expose what is happening with regard to (1) recompense, and/or (2) programs, for affected Thai Language students. It would seem fair to also include news for the affected CEP and TEFL students.

CMU appears to be open to claims regarding refund of fees for undelivered programs. Has anyone outside of the small claims court contingent, and those who can receive a credit card refund, achieved success? Language, CEP, TEFL? If not the full or pro-rata'd amount, why not?

LICMU has resumed some Thai language classes and associated visa support, and lately students' reviews of same are turning positive.

CMU does not seem to intend to resume CEP. True?

Has LICMU enrolled any of its 'cancelled' TEFL students into their new TEFL Certificate Program?

UniTEFL have offered to train TEFL students affected by the cancelled LICMU program. Has anybody accepted this offer; how did it go?

Edited December 22, 2010 by sbk
perjorative removed

[Rob9999]

Newbie:

None of the above is new. Been posted for ages. Suggestion by Alex Case that there are only two valid authorities or sponsors, Trinity or Cambridge, for TEFL or TESOL courses which somehow make them superior to all others is blatantly misleading. His demeaning of SIT shows an extremely limited view of the subject. I have no interest in this matter except honest reporting, and have no more use for his narrow minded suggestions (there is no accepted authority or measure of excellence in this field, and virtually no research as to outcomes) than I do for a certain "doctorate." Both are blather.

No, the detailed follow up on the his qualifications is completely new as of December 2010. And it's central to the issue here. I don't think that his qualifications are the only thing that he has misrepresented. It's very clear that Matt and former staff are posting here in order to put a spin on it all.

[Austeyr]

Newbie:

None of the above is new. Been posted for ages. Suggestion by Alex Case that there are only two valid authorities or sponsors, Trinity or Cambridge, for TEFL or TESOL courses which somehow make them superior to all others is blatantly misleading. His demeaning of SIT shows an extremely limited view of the subject. I have no interest in this matter except honest reporting, and have no more use for his narrow minded suggestions (there is no accepted authority or measure of excellence in this field, and virtually no research as to outcomes) than I do for a certain "doctorate." Both are blather.

No, the detailed follow up on the his qualifications is completely new as of December 2010. And it's central to the issue here. I don't think that his qualifications are the only thing that he has misrepresented. It's very clear that Matt and former staff are posting here in order to put a spin on it all.

I believe that the title of this thread was "Latest Devs. at CMU "Thai" course. Not personal attacks on other people or organisations. Only 9 posts in only this topic. Hmmm Someone has an axe to grind or maybe even another TEFL provider?

[newbie001]

So your proof, is a biased web site with another person with an axe to grind. Not to mention the new information on this thread is him rebutting arguments posted by someone on ajarn website not as he claims, members of the tefl program.

Again Rob999 you have added nothing to this thread except proving that you have a vendetta against matthew. Personally, I don't think that it matters if he has an unrelated BA or PhD. He ran a successful TEFL course for 5 years and had many satisfied students. You are either the Robin that was fired from their course after one month, or you are another TEFL provider. You definitely have a serious issue against Matthew which has no bearing on CMU any longer.

If you really think that he doesn't have a PhDyou can go to immigration and the labor board and have him arrested. But you have to prove that he doesn't have it. Which you can't. The assumptions on the other web are not proof, just conjecture. Without his authorization you cannot get the university to verify it or not. So good luck with that.

[Rob9999]

So your proof, is a biased web site with another person with an axe to grind. Not to mention the new information on this thread is him rebutting arguments posted by someone on ajarn website not as he claims, members of the tefl program.

Again Rob999 you have added nothing to this thread except proving that you have a vendetta against matthew. Personally, I don't think that it matters if he has an unrelated BA or PhD. He ran a successful TEFL course for 5 years and had many satisfied students. You are either the Robin that was fired from their course after one month, or you are another TEFL provider. You definitely have a serious issue against Matthew which has no bearing on CMU any longer.

If you really think that he doesn't have a PhDyou can go to immigration and the labor board and have him arrested. But you have to prove that he doesn't have it. Which you can't. The assumptions on the other web are not proof, just conjecture. Without his authorization you cannot get the university to verify it or not. So good luck with that.

So you think you know more than a faculty member at the University of Queensland? LOL

Anyone who has read the post knows that it makes mention of a misleading form letter sent out by former CMU staff. And you yourself sent out one of those letters on page 3 of this very forum (near the bottom). So how much are you being paid to monitor this board and write posts?

[Loaded]

... Personally, I don't think that it matters if he has an unrelated BA or PhD...

He lectured post-graduate philosophy students at CMU for 6 years because he 'had' a PhD. I think it matters to those students.

Here's one of his lectures on the subject of ethics:

http://cmulectures.blogspot.com/2005/12/ethics-lecture-three.html

Edited December 21, 2010 by Loaded

[CMX]

I have no horse in this race. My only concern was one regarding the many scores of students who were wronged. I do have a curiosity about academic performance. Both of these were related to the abruptness of the university's actions, or the court would not have ruled as it did. This harm is theirs to correct - but I don't see that they could if they were aggressively trying to do so.

So for me, the only essential issues which deserve development relate to compensating the wronged. I gather that most have been forced from Thailand and are probably out of touch.

The issue about quality of the programs is another worthy of discussion, particularly in regard as to what is available now.

The least important issue relates to credentials. I've spent years in the halls of higher learning (remaining vastly ignorant, of course), and lectures never depended upon paper speakers posted.

Naturally, I have no brief for falsified credentials - just the opposite. But some posters here are acting from emotion, anger and hatred, and their lives will be miserable because of it. Personally, I'm bored when not dismayed at seeing people beating a dead horse. (Notice the round finish?)

[newbie001]

Loaded, I agree with you 100%. I did not think about that. I was only talking about running a TEFL program.

Rob999

So you think you know more than a faculty member at the University of Queensland? LOL

Show me any real documentation rather than hearsay from a jaded web blogger.

Anyone who has read the post knows that it makes mention of a misleading form letter sent out by former CMU staff. And you yourself sent out one of those letters on page 3 of this very forum (near the bottom). So how much are you being paid to monitor this board and write posts?

You have just accused me of something that I didn't do at all. I never sent out or linked any letter to this forum. You have just slandered me and are now open to liable. You better chose your words more carefully.

If I am so pro this organization and Matthew, then why have I on other threads stated that there is some discrepancies with the Unitefl and their claims?

Personally, I am glad that the former CMU students are getting compensated. I think that the way that the re-organization of LICMU was poorly managed.

I just don't like Rob999's blatant head hunting of certain individuals and his grandiose statements