Education Ministry Plans For English

[BruceMangosteen]

Obviously you don't have a clue about what's going on at the TCT. The TCT is completely aware that the teacher licensing requirements are too onerous for the experienced TEFLers in Thailand. They expect most of them to be shoved out by their regs, which grant temporary waivers to newcomers.

Let me guess...........you are of course fully aware of what the TCT is attempting to do because a) You're an 'experienced TEFLER' or You have a 'friend' in the TCT.

Whatever.

The only people that appear to be 'ranting' over these concerns would be those who are going to face the most difficulties in complying.

I think you miss Z..'s point. But I'll let her make it. In short, the TCT requirements won't be met in earnest. Signing up for some series of exams and being asked to take a culture course five or ten years into your career in Thailand is ridiculous at best, and insults "good" teachers or at least teachers who have earned at least a little more respect than that. The "ranting" might be because of these factors, not due to a fake degree.

Answer if you have time:

Why doesn't the TCT have the ability to confirm a University exists, is accreditted, and even check the teachers claim he/she has a degree from same? The answer "they expect the school to do it" doesn't pass the laugh test.

Everything they seem to want involves the outlay of money and precious time, not proving you are qualified and capable of teaching.

[Phatcharanan]

I think you miss Z..'s point. But I'll let her make it. In short, the TCT requirements won't be met in earnest. Signing up for some series of exams and being asked to take a culture course five or ten years into your career in Thailand is ridiculous at best,

Answer if you have time:

Why doesn't the TCT have the ability to confirm a University exists, is accreditted, and even check the teachers claim he/she has a degree from same? The answer "they expect the school to do it" doesn't pass the laugh test.

You're the one missing the point. You mention 5 or 10 years into a career in Thailand?

Are teachers licenses not being issued automatically for those ex-pats that have been teaching in Thailand since before 2003? Or whatever year it was?

As for the TCT doing their own verifications? That may well be in the pipeline for the future....who knows?

I don't know about the majority of US curriculum schools but certainly the Brit internationals take up verifications themselves. This seems to be pretty standard in every country I have worked in and that covers 5 continents. For the TCT to not be doing this is hardly......laughable. Seems pretty standard to me.

There is often a cost involved in verification of a degree from the actual university. It is only right that the cost of that is borne by the school.

In any event, the MoE has a list of world-wide accredited universities, and those that are 'degree mills'.

Whether the local MoE boys & girls use it or not is of course an entirely different matter altogether.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Phatcharanan

[otherstuff1957]

^ The 'grandfathered' teachers have to have been teaching at the same school with the same teaching license, without inturuption since mid-2003. Quite a few people have been teaching here for longer than that, but very few of them have stayed at one school.

[BruceMangosteen]

I don't know about the majority of US curriculum schools but certainly the Brit internationals take up verifications themselves. This seems to be pretty standard in every country I have worked in and that covers 5 continents. For the TCT to not be doing this is hardly......laughable. Seems pretty standard to me.

The topic wasn't International schools. It was regarding putting at least one native speaker in all the schools and keeping those actually qualifed in their existing positions. Of course it is standard and expected that an International school would check a persons background before hiring them at an International wage etc.. Neither is going on now at Thai Government schools for the most part.

REPEAT:

Everything the TCT seems to want involves the outlay of money and precious time, not proving to them you are qualified and capable of teaching. I know our topic isn't the TCT but your claim those who are "ranting" may not qualify is just wrong I think. Most, not all certainly, but most are more than willing to prove they have a degree, that the degree is from a legitimate University/College, that they don't have a criminal record, they they don't have a drug problem, that they are a native speaker of English..... It is those items which, when someone hesitates or is unable or unwilling to provide/prove, he/she may be as you seem to infer, hiding someting and not be qualified or suitable to teach in the Kingdom of Thailand. The role of a governing body isn't to extract money from foreigners.

Edited October 20, 2010 by BruceMangosteen

[BruceMangosteen]

^ The 'grandfathered' teachers have to have been teaching at the same school with the same teaching license, without inturuption since mid-2003. Quite a few people have been teaching here for longer than that, but very few of them have stayed at one school.

I personally know someone who got a TL without a culture course and has worked at one school less than the time frame you indicate. I think 2005 or 2006 was her start date. She worked at another school before that and before 2003 and had one of the old TL's up to the point started the new school. I'm not disputing you have the rule correct, just know as I say it isn't always applied. That said, I've not had the TL in my hand to verify the claim.

[BruceMangosteen]

In any event, the MoE has a list of world-wide accredited universities, and those that are 'degree mills'.

Whether the local MoE boys & girls use it or not is of course an entirely different matter altogether.

I thought the fake degrees were available from some of the best Universities in the world?

The intent is what you seem lost about. Is the intent to have qualified people or not? And if it is, why not focus on that instead of getting money and making the foreigner look and feel like an idiot? Proving you have a legitimate degree(if that even matters) would be up to the applicant.

If they want to replace all the native speakers with those from surrounding countries who have fairly good English skills it would be most helpful if this was just stated so those who want to stay know their days are up and they should find another career or go back where they came from.

[Scott]

A couple of points. First, if a person has the proper credentials in their home country, such as a B.Ed., then they are eligible for a Teacher's License in Thailand. They do not need a waiver, or to take any classes.

Second,fake degrees are different from a degree from an unaccredited school. A fake degree is fraud; a degree from an unaccredited school is not fraudulent but isn't acceptable under MOE standards. Diploma mills may be illegal in some places and simply unaccredited in others.

Verifying the degree is simply to assure that it is not a fraudulent degree.

Finally, people from neighboring countries (and others where English isn't the official/dominant language) must take an English Language Proficiency exam and meet the standard set by the MOE. Filipino teachers, for example, must have this qualification.

Different schools will have different regulations. Where I work, the native speakers teach English, usually conversation, not the Thai-English subject. Non-native speakers can teach Math, science and other subjects. This is the schools internal policy.

I have never heard anyone say that Filipinos, for example, are native speakers. Parents can be quite critical of who is teaching their child and there country of origin. Usually, however, a 'white' face to many means it is a native speaker.

[BruceMangosteen]

Finally, people from neighboring countries (and others where English isn't the official/dominant language) must take an English Language Proficiency exam and meet the standard set by the MOE. Filipino teachers, for example, must have this qualification.

That isn't enforced at my school. The teachers get VISA's and Work Permits so it isn't enforced in those offices either. My school is a Government school. Curious if the exam you refer to is a Thai generated exam or an international standard exam? This confirms to me at least that the TCT stuff towards westerners is selective and discrimination.

[Scott]

The exam is not a generic Thai exam. There are a variety of exams, the most common used by Asians is the TOIEC. There is also the CUTHEP as well as the international exams used for University admissions.

The TOIEC is only good for 2 years. We recently had a teacher who had one that was over 2 years old and she was denied a visa by immigration. She retook the exam and was given a non-immigrant B visa.

All our teachers who are non-native speakers, including Europeans must take it and the visa isn't issued without it. The MOE will not write the letter requesting the visa without the exam score.

[BruceMangosteen]

All our teachers who are non-native speakers, including Europeans must take it and the visa isn't issued without it. The MOE will not write the letter requesting the visa without the exam score.

That's interesting. Maybe Government schools are different. I hope some other members contribute their experiences with this. It seems a great burden to put on the various officials making these decisions on the spot and under pressure. As again for your blanket statement about the M.of Ed. it simply dosn't hold true in my area. It must depend which school and which office and which official signs these letters. Again I know for a fact, not rumor, these letters have been requested and have been written and the teachers credentials are not reviewed by anyone.

[Scott]

I have no desire to argue with you. TIT and virtually nothing is the same everywhere. Rules and regulations are enforced differently in different areas. The TOIEC is not a difficult test and it is offered quite regularly. Pretty much any Filipino with a University degree can pass it.

I assist in hiring for several schools; they cover two different provinces and use two different offices, but they require the same thing. We also can't get a WP for anyone without a Bachelor's degree and some places can.

[Scott]

I read in the newspaper today that the gov't has scrapped it's plan (or changed it) on English. Part of there concern is that if English is used people might think that Thailand was colonized by a western country.

[BruceMangosteen]

I have no desire to argue with you. TIT and virtually nothing is the same everywhere. Rules and regulations are enforced differently in different areas. The TOIEC is not a difficult test and it is offered quite regularly. Pretty much any Filipino with a University degree can pass it.

I assist in hiring for several schools; they cover two different provinces and use two different offices, but they require the same thing. We also can't get a WP for anyone without a Bachelor's degree and some places can.

I don't want to argue either. I just want to know what's going on so I can plan my life and take care of my family. Is that too much to ask?

[Scott]

Bruce, my apologies if I sounded abrupt. It's difficult to discuss the regulations because their enforcement is so different from area to area (and even within the same area with different schools).

I'll give you my 2 cents worth, but a more comprehensive discussion might best be handled in a thread of it's own. We are starting to get off-topic, although qualifications are related to the topic.

If I were planning on teaching in Thailand for more than 6 years (3 two-year waivers = 6 years). I would either start taking the exams and studying for them or return to school, maybe locally, to upgrade my degree. If I didn't have a degree, I would start getting it.

The regular gov't entities, like immigration, MOE, and MOL have always had a lot of wiggle room. By hook or by crook you could usually get a non-immigrant visa and a WP. The spanner in the works is the Teacher's Council. They are a different kettle of fish and there purpose in existing is to bring bring teachers into compliance--including Thai nationals. I don't think they are going to go away; I don't think they are going relent. They may, out of necessity and by gov't direction, change somethings, but that's it.

Thailand is starting to become a developed country and the days of anyone teaching are probably nearing an end. The gov't also sees the need and urgency for education and reform. Teachers are likely to be a part of that.

[BOOKEMDANO]

I believe we are citing two different sources. My is the simple tweet:

Retired American teachers are tentatively viewed as a key workforce for this English language campaign. /via @tulsathit

I believe you can now add 40,000 teachers from the UK to your list now Scott.

As of today, thanks to the latest spending review in the UK, 40,000 'qualified' English teachers now find themselves out of a job very soon. Surely in an economy which cannot sustain these kind of professions, some of these teachers - rather than making a sudden change in career - will no doubt start to look elsewhere for work; Thailand being one of the destinations that would embrace them given your recent assertion that the MOE wants to enhance the level of English taught in the country.

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/20/spending-review-loss-teaching-jobs

[Scott]

Well, I guess they will have to target Americans then because the Brits will already be here!

Sorry to hear about these cuts in the UK. I saw something about cuts on the news but wasn't paying too much attention. I'll take a look at the link you posted.

[Scott]

I read it. That sounds quite scary--40,000 sounds like a lot of teachers.

[BOOKEMDANO]

I read it. That sounds quite scary--40,000 sounds like a lot of teachers.

Indeed, but that is only a small fraction of the proposed costs Osborne is planning to dispose upon the country; which, although not relevant to this thread, is a massive blow for the British educational sector and one that is bound to affect 'some' of the readers here who have plans on returning to the UK to follow some form of educational employment in the near future.

[Xangsamhua]

They'll all be coming here!

http://www.theteachersareblowingtheirwhistles.com/therearenojobs.htm

[Phatcharanan]

I believe you can now add 40,000 teachers from the UK to your list now Scott.

As of today, thanks to the latest spending review in the UK, 40,000 'qualified' English teachers now find themselves out of a job very soon.

Typical scare-mongering by the Guardian newspaper. Far too early to say how the cuts will be implemented and what effect they will have on jobs.

The analysis from the BBC paints a different picture.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11583990

[canuck1941]

I think the Thais also have to have an orientation into western styles of teaching or the very reason they hire them, young or old, won't work. I think this is a five year project.