Speedboat Runs Over And Drags Diver

[pmgthailand]

This story was in the Phuket Post. Speedboat runs over a diver, drags him for 300 metres then gets angry and says that he must pay for any damage to his boat. Only in Thailand. I am a charter captain in Phuket for 4 years and I have had speedboats driving over and through parties of my own divers, they just seem oblivious to the danger or they don't care. The article said speedboat captain, don't make me laugh. I bet that not one speedboat captain could answer this question: What is considered a safe speed when operating a boat and what factors are used to determine this speed. This is basic seamanship and common sense. I often see large speedboats ( 40+ feet with big engines and a full load ) going past Ao Chalong pier at full speed. Surely there should be a speed limit in and around this pier, where people are trying to get on and off boats.

[pmgthailand]

6. Safe speed; Any vessel must proceed at a safe speed at which she can to take action to avoid collision and be able to stop within a distance suitable to the prevailing conditions, which include the visibility; traffic density; her manouvrability (e.g. stopping distance and turning ability); background lights and other dazzle; the state of the wind, sea, current and nearly hazards; draft in relation to the available water.When radar is in use also consider: limitations of the equipment; range scale in use; sea-state, weather and other interference; possible weak targets; the number of targets and their movement; that the use of radar may help to judge the visibility.

Edited October 11, 2010 by pmgthailand

[stevenl]

No connection at all between Chalong Pier speed and the place where this accidents happened. Agree with you, quite often I am not happy with the speedboat captains myself, but your byline 'this happens all too often' needs some explaining. What other times did a speedboat run over and drag a diver? Considering your line I presume this happens at least a few times each year?

[pmgthailand]

No connection at all between Chalong Pier speed and the place where this accidents happened. Agree with you, quite often I am not happy with the speedboat captains myself, but your byline 'this happens all too often' needs some explaining. What other times did a speedboat run over and drag a diver? Considering your line I presume this happens at least a few times each year?

It happens to me at least a few times a day when I am out on charter. I run a charter yacht. When I have people in the water snorkeling or diving in and around Phi Phi or Krabi. Last year I had an Italian family on board for a week. We were anchored off the Hin Klang reef at Phi Phi, I had two divers and 3 people snorkeling on the reef. I saw a speedboat approaching, I stood up on the flybridge waving my arms and pointing to divers that I had in the water. He drove right over top of them and through them. My guests were horrified and extremely frightened. We then went to Tonsai Bay for lunch and swimming, the same thing happened. Speedboats driving at high speed close to our yacht and people in the water. I have a blue and white flag that indicates divers in the water. I am not sure if most captains of speedboats even know the meaning of this flag. Needless to say my guests were too frightened to go back in the water in and around Phi Phi. Krabi is the same now and so is the Similan Islands with speedboats coming from Khao Lak. They just need to use a little common sense and know what the IRPC's are before being given a licence.

[stevenl]

Am I glad I have not been on your boat. At least a few times a day you have divers run over by a speedboat and dragged around. Not many returning guests I would imagine

[pmgthailand]

Am I glad I have not been on your boat. At least a few times a day you have divers run over by a speedboat and dragged around. Not many returning guests I would imagine

I am trying to make this a serious thread although sad but true. There have been a few close calls and many of our guests have complained about this. I now consider Phi Phi pretty much a no go area now for yachts.

Edited October 11, 2010 by pmgthailand

[stevenl]

Serious

Your byline indicates this (people been dragged around) happens on a regular basis. Also in your post you make a connection between this accident and speeds at Chalong Pier. There is no connection, and the sometimes high speed of speedboats at the pier has no bearing at all on the people getting in and out of the boats. You suggest otherwise.

The news is a couple of weeks old. I am still wondering with divecompany it was, normally the word would spread very quickly about something like this, but this time there has been no talk at all about this. Very, very strange.

But yes, the speedboat captains can drive way to fast. That is why the marine national parks recently came out with new regulations regarding boating and diving. These regulations are also applicable to Phi Phi.

The effect though will be nil at places like Phi Phi, at Similans they might have more effect since enforcement there can be better.

Edited October 11, 2010 by stevenl

[Lannatyne]

Am I glad I have not been on your boat. At least a few times a day you have divers run over by a speedboat and dragged around. Not many returning guests I would imagine

stevenl - try to take the bigger view, and not the literal words. Readers can work out what OP is implying without you putting unnecessary focus on the 'dragged around' bit.

Boat skippers / captains are either sub-contracted by dive shops, or employed by them directly. It's about time the dive shops took some responsibility here and occasionally sent a person skilled in boathandling out of the air-conditioned shop and onto the dive boat now and then to supervise what their staff are doing.

[stevenl]

Am I glad I have not been on your boat. At least a few times a day you have divers run over by a speedboat and dragged around. Not many returning guests I would imagine

stevenl - try to take the bigger view, and not the literal words. Readers can work out what OP is implying without you putting unnecessary focus on the 'dragged around' bit.

Boat skippers / captains are either sub-contracted by dive shops, or employed by them directly. It's about time the dive shops took some responsibility here and occasionally sent a person skilled in boathandling out of the air-conditioned shop and onto the dive boat now and then to supervise what their staff are doing.

Lannatyne,

What happened here has nothing to do with a boat skipper / captain of a diveshop. Maybe read the story before you post about it?

Most of the captains on diveboats are excellent and very skilled BTW.

Edited October 11, 2010 by stevenl

[Lannatyne]

As instructed, I've 'read the story' again as was written by the OP.

Sorry, but I can't see where it is stated that the speedboat wasn't carrying any divers. So, given that I'm taking the bigger view (sic), there's a chance that my post is valid.

Certainly, I agree there is (or should be) a difference between the seamanship intellect of a speedboat captain and a big dive boat skipper here in Phuket. However, I've seen many times when skippers of big day boats have similar disregard for divers as that demonstrated in the OP's story.

Rival dive boat + rival divers = they don't matter. It's the same 'driving' attitude as we see on the roads - "Me First!"

The supervision element of my last post was a serious point. As long as they have the diving and seamanship knowledge themselves, owners and managers should get out more to check, monitor, and correct (where required) what the boat staff are doing.

[lovelomsak]

Stevenl The more you post the more you show your ignorance about water activities You must be a speed boat driver <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif"> You stated in your post 7 that speed boats speed has nothing to do with passengers getting on or off boats at the pier. Well it has a lot to do with passengers getting on and off. Have you ever heard of wake. In properly controlled marine environments you can be sued for damage done by your wake in areas around a dock.If the wake from a speed boat caused someone to fall in the water they could sue the speed boat driver. If nothing else the driver would have to pay some money to someone to settle the problem.<BR> Sounds more to me like a territorial dispute. Maybe relatives of the tuk tuk drivers.

[stevenl]

Stevenl The more you post the more you show your ignorance about water activities You must be a speed boat driver <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif"> You stated in your post 7 that speed boats speed has nothing to do with passengers getting on or off boats at the pier. Well it has a lot to do with passengers getting on and off. Have you ever heard of wake. In properly controlled marine environments you can be sued for damage done by your wake in areas around a dock.If the wake from a speed boat caused someone to fall in the water they could sue the speed boat driver. If nothing else the driver would have to pay some money to someone to settle the problem.<BR> Sounds more to me like a territorial dispute. Maybe relatives of the tuk tuk drivers.

As I said: At Chalong Pier .... So don't take my words out of context please. And at Chalong Pier the speedboats don't come to the end of the pier where the big boats unload their passengers. There is no wake where the passengers disembark. So your your story about the wake is nice, but has really nothing to do with my post nor with the topic here.

Your final remark has me really baffled. A territorial dispute? What, where? Tuktuk drivers?

[richard_smith237]

Am I glad I have not been on your boat. At least a few times a day you have divers run over by a speedboat and dragged around. Not many returning guests I would imagine

For real ??.... The Op was in reference to other boat drivers not giving two hoots of consideration for the safety of others. In pretty much the same way tuk tuks and other crazy drivers tear around there is very little consideration towards consequence.

If this has happened, and there are boats speeding past recklessly close to swimmers (snorkeling / Diving) and the Captain has already places his flags and provided warnings there is not much more he could do other than not let his tour swim at all which is rather the point of the trip in the first place I'd imagine.

I can't see why or how you have taken a disliking to the Op in this case, it seems you are defending the reckless and dangerous boat pilots based on the fact that you know some who are safe.

I know some of the tuk tuk drivers on Phuket are polite and don't want to rip anyone off, but.......

[pmgthailand]

As I said: At Chalong Pier .... So don't take my words out of context please. And at Chalong Pier the speedboats don't come to the end of the pier where the big boats unload their passengers. There is no wake where the passengers disembark. So your your story about the wake is nice, but has really nothing to do with my post nor with the topic here.

Your final remark has me really baffled. A territorial dispute? What, where? Tuktuk drivers?

The speedboats drive past the pier (usually at full speed I might add) to drop their passengers at the beach. I have been embarking passengers when one of these big speedboats has gone past the pier at full speed, no more than 10 metres away, the wash created by this was so large that one of our guests almost fell off and would have landed in the water between the yacht and the pier and was only saved by my quick thinking crew who grabbed her by the scruff of the neck, possibly saving her life. The OP is correct in stating that this would not be allowed in any civilized harbour and the operator would be prosecuted. I was going to take some pictures after this incident to sent to the Marine Police unit, but was warned against it as I would be the one who would get in to trouble by possibly not getting my visa or work permit renewed. A sad state of affairs indeed.

[stevenl]

Am I glad I have not been on your boat. At least a few times a day you have divers run over by a speedboat and dragged around. Not many returning guests I would imagine

For real ??.... The Op was in reference to other boat drivers not giving two hoots of consideration for the safety of others. In pretty much the same way tuk tuks and other crazy drivers tear around there is very little consideration towards consequence.

If this has happened, and there are boats speeding past recklessly close to swimmers (snorkeling / Diving) and the Captain has already places his flags and provided warnings there is not much more he could do other than not let his tour swim at all which is rather the point of the trip in the first place I'd imagine.

I can't see why or how you have taken a disliking to the Op in this case, it seems you are defending the reckless and dangerous boat pilots based on the fact that you know some who are safe.

I know some of the tuk tuk drivers on Phuket are polite and don't want to rip anyone off, but.......

Maybe you'd better read what I have written. I am not defending speedboat drivers that drive by too fast, which happens very often. While surfacing from a dive they are the ones I watch out for, longtail captains and diveboat captains normally know exactly what they are doing, but the speedboats do not unfortunately.

Also I have nothing against the OP. Maybe my first posts could be misread, but I meant to say in those posts that the title of the thread and the byline 'Speedboat Runs Over And Drags Diver' 'This happens all to often.' gives a false impression. Because this was the first accidents of its kind (as far as I know) where a speedboat runs over and drags a diver.

There are still a lot of uncertainties about this accident BTW, which happened on the 21st of September. I am still wondering what happened exactly. Especially since the divecompany was not named, and nobody I talked to in the dive community here has any idea which company this was. Normally the word spreads pretty quickly about things like this.

[richard_smith237]

Maybe you'd better read what I have written. I am not defending speedboat drivers that drive by too fast, which happens very often. While surfacing from a dive they are the ones I watch out for, longtail captains and diveboat captains normally know exactly what they are doing, but the speedboats do not unfortunately.

Also I have nothing against the OP. Maybe my first posts could be misread, but I meant to say in those posts that the title of the thread and the byline 'Speedboat Runs Over And Drags Diver' 'This happens all to often.' gives a false impression. Because this was the first accidents of its kind (as far as I know) where a speedboat runs over and drags a diver.

There are still a lot of uncertainties about this accident BTW, which happened on the 21st of September. I am still wondering what happened exactly. Especially since the divecompany was not named, and nobody I talked to in the dive community here has any idea which company this was. Normally the word spreads pretty quickly about things like this.

Yep, fair enough. I agree the Topic Title is somewhat 'sensationalized'... I have heard of two instances of this year in Phuket (another about 8 months ago ?), so its a lot less common than road traffic accidents involving tourists (i.e. bus accidents / Motorcycle accidents). But I'd also agree that near-misses must happen quite often.

If I'm diving and a boat speeds or even passes slowed above me, I consider that a near miss. The captains know the dive areas, know people will be underneath but attempt to position their boat as close to the dive sight as possible regardless. There must be a better way of doing this, at peak season its a free-for-all.

So, yes the boat captains must be very skilled to avoid accident considering the proximity within which they operate. Like car drivers in Thailand, they appear to be skilled at judging the distance from other traffic that however doesn't suggest that their throughout process involves much consideration towards safety of others.

It does appear to me as though the 'marine' industry still operates at a level whereby profit far outweighs the consideration of safety - but this is also on par with many developing nations so we should never forget where we are.

[pmgthailand]

I have tried to post on TV before about the marine safety issue or lack of it, only to have it removed. It seems that you cannot say anything negative about Thailand, even if it is to highlight something as important as a safety issue. Tourists coming from the developed world arrive in Thailand and most will expect that the same view on safety applies here as it does in their own country. Wrong!!! I posted that it is up to the tourists themselves to make sure that any activities undertaken here are inherently safe, but most people do not have expertise to define this and take it for granted that the operators have taken all precautions to make sure that they are safe and compliant with local laws and regulations in force. Money comes first here everything else will be swept under the carpet.

[stevenl]

It does appear to me as though the 'marine' industry still operates at a level whereby profit far outweighs the consideration of safety - but this is also on par with many developing nations so we should never forget where we are.

Considering the extremely low level of profits at the moment that does not bode very well for the future then.

Marine is a very broad term, but with respects to diving safety is high on the list of priorities of most operators.

[stevenl]

In retrospect, make that 'many' in stead of 'most'.

[pmgthailand]

It does appear to me as though the 'marine' industry still operates at a level whereby profit far outweighs the consideration of safety - but this is also on par with many developing nations so we should never forget where we are.

Considering the extremely low level of profits at the moment that does not bode very well for the future then.

Marine is a very broad term, but with respects to diving safety is high on the list of priorities of most operators.

I totally agree, but most divers are very switched on too. Diving is all about safety and they would be the first to point out any unsafe practices, I'm sure. I hate to keep bashing the speedboats, but these are big powerful machines carrying many persons on board at high speeds, in close proximity to other vessels and people in the water. Most people on board these speedboats don't understand the complex safety issues concerned with operating a commercial vessel at sea (and probably some of the captains too), but that is what they paid their money for, to not have to think about that and just have a fun day out on a boat. It also seems to me that there a lot more of them now than there was 5 years ago.

The article goes on to say that,

" Demarcation rules for vessels arriving and leaving Racha Yai sites are not clear, although regulations prohibit a boat captain from driving at more than 5 knots within 300 metres of the shore or over and around coral reefs."

This last bit seems clear to me, but is seldom observed and rarely enforced. I see this from a professional perspective on a daily basis.

It is like driving a car here, I am surprised that there aren't more accidents here than there are when you look at some of the driving habits. But usually when there is an accident, it is a serious one. You just cannot continue to say, oh well that's they way it is here and put up with it, all for the sake of profit. There must be a reality check sometime, enforcement of the laws already in place, before there is a serious accident.

[ESB7]

Is it not possible to dive where there are not speedboats......seems common sense that if speedboats are prevalent you dont dive there..

[katabeachbum]

as a boat captain since I was 15 yo, I would have a dinghy/rib out when divers in water.

seems irresponsible in this part of the world to rely on others (speedboatcaptains) to see/understand a flag on boat only

[pmgthailand]

There really is nowhere to go now within 60 miles of Phuket for a day out to snorkel or dive, where there are not speedboats. It is just a fact, there are only so many places in and around Phuket for this. They have every right to take people to these places too, I just wish that they would operate their vessels more responsibly. So it is not about finding new places where there are no speedboats, it is about people using the resources that we have better. Right now it just seems like a free for all.

[lovelomsak]

as a boat captain since I was 15 yo, I would have a dinghy/rib out when divers in water.

seems irresponsible in this part of the world to rely on others (speedboatcaptains) to see/understand a flag on boat only

Good point Good idea to put a couple of crew on the water in smaller inflatables or dinghies to run interference. They make get ran over though I think in Thailand the tonnage rule is the basic rule they understand and live by. Litigation could get really complicated though.

[stevenl]

As a diver i would be more afraid of boat boys running around in a dinghy than a captain in a big boat.

Edited October 11, 2010 by stevenl

[katabeachbum]

as a boat captain since I was 15 yo, I would have a dinghy/rib out when divers in water.

seems irresponsible in this part of the world to rely on others (speedboatcaptains) to see/understand a flag on boat only

Good point Good idea to put a couple of crew on the water in smaller inflatables or dinghies to run interference. They make get ran over though I think in Thailand the tonnage rule is the basic rule they understand and live by. Litigation could get really complicated though.

No need to run the dinghy around. Have a dive flag on it as on the mothership, anchor the dinghy, have a floating line to mothership, and some white fenders on the line. Should make most speedboats choose another route.

anyone running over an anchored dinghy is in serious problems even in LOS

[stevenl]

Ok, anybody some practical ideas?

[pmgthailand]

Ok, anybody some practical ideas?

With so many speedboats, longtails, diveboats and ferries operating in and around Phuket. I would have thought that the marine police unit could do a little more enforcement of the regulations already in force. Stop selling captain's licenses and actually make it more difficult to get one, like passing a written and practical test like had to. Monitoring and enforcement in and around Phuket is virtually non-existent. I have never even seen a marine police boat in 5 years. I don't even think that they have one.

[Lannatyne]

In this thread, I'm not agreeing too much with stevenl, but he did say "Practical ideas", so forget about any increased involvement of the enforcement (allegedly) authorities around here.

My practical solution is as indicated earlier - for the owners and managers to take a more hands on role in ensuring their diving and boating staff are fully aware of rules and regulations. Hands up if all you dive shop guys have trained your staff / contractors in the 5 knot / 300m rule, the A-flag, the IRPCS etc etc. Not many hands in the air, I guess.

If the enforcement bodies can't be bothered to enforce it, then industry participants can easily ensure their staff are aware of how to behave on the water.

It's the same as every and any skill : teach, train, and monitor. And get out of those offices to supervise what they're doing now and then. Call it "Performance Appraisal" if you want to get all corporate language about it.

[stevenl]

Lannatyne,

You are again putting the problem in the hands of the diveshops and their boats, and that is not where the problem lies, nor are they in a position to solve it.

Agree with PMG that to limit the number would be a good idea, but that will never be reinforced. There is a marine police boat BTW, sometimes used to board diveboats and check for work permits. At least I think it was a marine police boat used for that.