Why I Don'T Teach My Gf English

[jazzbo]

Thanks Kuhn D ... nice blog ... loaded the Kindle PC for later ...

[mark45y]

Apocalypse Now (1979)

while flying in a helicopter with Air Cavalry soldiers]

Chef:

Why do all you guys sit on your helmets?

Soldier:

So we don't get our balls blown off.

Kilgore:

Smell that? You smell that?

Lance:

What?

Kilgore:

Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. [kneels]

Kilgore:

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a

hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't

find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that

gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like [sniffing, pondering]

Kilgore: Victory. Someday this war's gonna end... [suddenly walks off]

me: Someday this war's gonna end ???? don't worry son, we can always start a new one,then we will have new people to rape, maim, torture and murder.

NOW CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THE PLEASURES OF MASS MURDER ?????????

ANY MODERATOR AROUND ???????

I posted the pic to give another side of the war. Only 1 out of 8 troops actually saw much combat. The guys in the photo were all drafted and had a specialty in aviation or law or accounting. They were aeronautical engineers mostly. The draft gave the army a wide choice of people with talents not normally found in enlisted personnel. I wanted you to look at them and see if you saw murderers.

That's one of the reasons I favor a draft. Drafted soldiers know they are going back to the real world in a couple of years and are not under the same pressures as career soldiers for advancement and rank.

They offered everyone in the photo a field commission and we all, to a man turned them down.

No one was interested in killing people. We were interested in serving our time and going home.

I only mention the Vietnam war because it was the vehicle that got me here. I didn't come to SEA as a sex tourist I came under duress as a soldier.

I found that I liked the people. I liked the scene. It left an impression on me that lasted 40 years and when the time was right I came back.

Vietnam prepared me for Thailand. You could buy anything in Saigon or Bangkok in 1969. Anything.

You could pay the VC not to shoot you. I know because I paid them.

You could buy a helicopter, or tank or drug processing lab. Anything.

You could buy your way out of trouble. I did that too.

Vietnam wasn't just a war it was a social movement. Students rioting in the US. First and I guess last time that has happened. Civil disobedience. Americans don't do that sort of thing. Public opinion in America stopped the war not bullets. We (the army) won the Tet offensive decisively and in short order but it was a PR coup for the North Vietnamese Army. After Tet the VC were out and the NVA was in. The North Vietnamese Army took over command and control of the war. The writing was on the wall. They backed us into a corner. We couldn't bomb the areas that made a difference. We were fighting with one hand tied behind our backs. Everyone there after 1969 knew it was a lost cause. The North Vietnamese were skillful in the area of diplomacy. The Thais were skillful in the area of diplomacy and we were incredibly inept.

I got the feeling that you thought Vietnam was an American war. It wasn't. Thousands of Thai troops died but their deaths were unrecorded because they didn't die in Vietnam. They died in Laos.

The Vietnam war was a major event in Thai economics and Thai politics. It gets written off as a foolish adventure only remembered by old Americans in bars in Pattaya.

[mark45y]

In Rome, do as the romans.

So i will STAY off topic.

Now, who won? The world's finest army, or the tiny vietnamese peasants?

They beat the French before I got there, French dead: 92,707 Viet Minh: 500,000 Civilians: 250,000 . As I mentioned before when I left we were winning. I told em what to do and what not to do. They messed it up. It wasn't my fault. One can't worry about things one has no control over or you'll go crazy. Deaths, 1,100,000 North Vietnamese Army, Viet Cong,65,000, Chinese Army 122, Russian Army 16, US Army 58,267, Thai Army 351, Australian Army 426, New Zealand 55, South Korea 5,099.

We were winning, THEY messed up, THEY did not do what you told them to do...

Who are WE (surely not me ! )

Who are THEY (the local puppet government?)

The number of deaths on both sides may say something about the firepower and lack of civilisation of the other side.

And if i remember well, YOU (...) left your embassy in quite a hurry

The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973.

[domprz]

...

You could pay the VC not to shoot you. I know because I paid them.

You could buy a helicopter, or tank or drug processing lab. Anything.

You could buy your way out of trouble. I did that too...

I would very much like to read about the specific incidents - if we are allowed to remain off-topic

[jazzbo]

Post #294 I don't want to tell you how much it cost because the folks will make fun of me because it was so cheap. 'Twould have been gallant if you felt the same way about your girlfriend.

[DoubtingThomas]

Apocalypse Now (1979)

while flying in a helicopter with Air Cavalry soldiers]

Chef:

Why do all you guys sit on your helmets?

Soldier:

So we don't get our balls blown off.

Kilgore:

Smell that? You smell that?

Lance:

What?

Kilgore:

Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. [kneels]

Kilgore:

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a

hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't

find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that

gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like [sniffing, pondering]

Kilgore: Victory. Someday this war's gonna end... [suddenly walks off]

me: Someday this war's gonna end ???? don't worry son, we can always start a new one,then we will have new people to rape, maim, torture and murder.

NOW CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THE PLEASURES OF MASS MURDER ?????????

ANY MODERATOR AROUND ???????

I posted the pic to give another side of the war. Only 1 out of 8 troops actually saw much combat. The guys in the photo were all drafted and had a specialty in aviation or law or accounting. They were aeronautical engineers mostly. The draft gave the army a wide choice of people with talents not normally found in enlisted personnel. I wanted you to look at them and see if you saw murderers.

That's one of the reasons I favor a draft. Drafted soldiers know they are going back to the real world in a couple of years and are not under the same pressures as career soldiers for advancement and rank.

They offered everyone in the photo a field commission and we all, to a man turned them down.

No one was interested in killing people. We were interested in serving our time and going home.

I only mention the Vietnam war because it was the vehicle that got me here. I didn't come to SEA as a sex tourist I came under duress as a soldier.

I found that I liked the people. I liked the scene. It left an impression on me that lasted 40 years and when the time was right I came back.

Vietnam prepared me for Thailand. You could buy anything in Saigon or Bangkok in 1969. Anything.

You could pay the VC not to shoot you. I know because I paid them.

You could buy a helicopter, or tank or drug processing lab. Anything.

You could buy your way out of trouble. I did that too.

Vietnam wasn't just a war it was a social movement. Students rioting in the US. First and I guess last time that has happened. Civil disobedience. Americans don't do that sort of thing. Public opinion in America stopped the war not bullets. We (the army) won the Tet offensive decisively and in short order but it was a PR coup for the North Vietnamese Army. After Tet the VC were out and the NVA was in. The North Vietnamese Army took over command and control of the war. The writing was on the wall. They backed us into a corner. We couldn't bomb the areas that made a difference. We were fighting with one hand tied behind our backs. Everyone there after 1969 knew it was a lost cause. The North Vietnamese were skillful in the area of diplomacy. The Thais were skillful in the area of diplomacy and we were incredibly inept.

I got the feeling that you thought Vietnam was an American war. It wasn't. Thousands of Thai troops died but their deaths were unrecorded because they didn't die in Vietnam. They died in Laos.

The Vietnam war was a major event in Thai economics and Thai politics. It gets written off as a foolish adventure only remembered by old Americans in bars in Pattaya.

<deleted> me you're incorrigible! I don't think I can stand any more of this boll*cks. It's no more than a farrago of self aggrandizement. One minute you're a fresh faced, innocent young kid, nothing like those "nutter" marines, the next you're dropping the VC (oh sorry, perhaps it was the NVA - yes, I do know the <deleted>' difference) a few bob not to kill you (well, that's what you wanted us to believe, now wasn't it). I guess you have to be pretty close to them to do that. Was that before or after you'd paid them to scrape the sh*t out of your pants. I've got news for you. That sh*t has found its way to your brains.

Write about the <deleted>' subject and not about how you single handedly nearly won the Vietnam war, for chrissakes. As for the history of the Vietnam war, or at least that very small part of it in which you were, apparently, not involved, we're all old enough to know that already. Those who are not and are in the faintest bit interested can Google it just as well as you can, by the way.

[mark45y]

Response to DT.

By accident even more than I have written. On my final leave before going my parents and wife tried to talk me into deserting and going back to Canada. Even at Ft. Lewis waiting for a flight to Vietnam a friend of mine kept putting me at the bottom of the list of departures so every day the flights would be filled before my name came up.

I was afraid to go to Vietnam until I went and survived. Afterwards I walked with a swagger and a stare and called the guys in the national guard like Bush, pussies.

There was no period to re adjust. One day Vietnam and 24 hours later the San Francisco airport out of the army and on the way back home. I lot of guys went back to school on the GI bill including me. One day during class a car backfired outside and half the class was on the floor under their desks. It was embarrassing but kind of funny as the girls looked at all the big older guys on the floor.

I have known men who were hesitant to talk about war experiences. At first when arriving back in the States and for 20 years no one talked about it because of the negative connotation of being a Vietnam Vet. Baby burner and druggy and things like that. Among the Vets I have met here in Thailand it is a frequent conversation among most. Some no. I knew one guy here who picked up wounded guys in airlifts in difficult places. He rode a metal basket down through triple canopy jungle and loaded up the shot up bodies into his basket and up to the chopper. He only talked to me about it twice in a couple of years. I may have but I don't think I killed anyone in Vietnam. I don't have any nightmares or flashbacks. No post whatever syndrome. I do still have dreams about the sex. I think a lot of people dream about Thai women and I doubt if it is a serious mental illness.

I don't know if you have known anyone who is a writer. Writers write about war a lot. War is an important experience in a persons life. Minutes become hours. Death or the fear of death has a way of imprinting memories. I used to hunt deer before Vietnam after I never went once. I still like guns. But I don't like hunting big animals. Ducks of quail or pheasant are OK.

I talk about it because there is a misconception about the Vietnam war and the people who served there. (I did not write the following article but I believe it to be 100% accurate.

The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II. 75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled. MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos.

Back to me.

Then there is my view point on the Vietnam war, Thailand and SEA in the 1960's. There was a 10% chance of dying or being maimed in Vietnam. About 6% in WW II. In that respect it was about twice as dangerous to have been in Vietnam as WW II.

Having said that it did not strike me as that dangerous.

Most of the time it was comic. Sometimes a tragic comedy but comedy nevertheless.

Vietnam was my Catch 22. If you read Catch 22 there was a lot of sex in the book. There was a lot of sex in SEA.

During a census in the US it was determined that 4 out of 5 people who say they served in Vietnam did not.

I don't know if that is typical for only the Vietnam war or WW II as well.

My first wife's father always said he was in WWI but never talked about it. He said the problems he had with his feet were a result of being gassed in the war. After he died inquiring about funeral arrangements we found out he was never in the war and in fact never even served in the army.

As for my sad life. I worked in Thailand for the last three years and stopped two months ago when my pension started. The work was both physically and mentally demanding and I was dead tired at the end of the day. I probably could have made it without working but I hate to see savings going out with nothing coming in. Now my savings are secure in a basket of currencies (no dollars) and there is enough money coming in to take care of my day to day expenses. After the three years of working here I am completely content just to stare at the clouds for a couple of months. The first week I stopped working I didn't even go out of the condo. I was so happy not to be getting up at 6 AM and getting home at 9PM. People still call me weekly and offer me work. I tell them I am on holiday for a year.

I don't know what I want to do. I know more what I don't want to do.

There have been definitive fiction works written about WWI and WW II but not really Vietnam. I don't think I have the talent to write the definitive Vietnam war story but maybe a couple of short stories are within my capabilities. I know what happened but I don't know what is believable. Or if my telling makes it believable or not. When I found that photo I also found 6 articles that I had written and were published when I was 22.

They were humorous and about a very serious subject. I was a bit amazed reading them now that they were published by the Army. I also realize my writing style has remained constant. Throwing in references to sex when talking about death and helicopters. “Flying rock trick. No friends, rocks do not fly and neither does a helicopter without a main rotor blade. Like the proverbial one woman man most aviators in Vietnam fly single engine aircraft.” End of quote.

I think my perspective on War and in particular war in SEA is unique. People who served in the war are upset with me for being unpatriotic and flippant about god and country and people who don't like war are upset because I am flippant about peace and those who oppose war. And of course the sexual excesses of the high and low in war are better forgotten by everyone.

“I was eating a chicken foot in the room where Lek got her abortion with acupuncture for an anesthetic. Bernie the medic treated gonorrhea in the barracks maids and shot up the cooks with heroin because no one wanted to get gamma globulin shots for hepatitis.” Is it true? 100% true. Is it believable? I don't know. It is my Vietnam experience. I am no Tony P.

All of these things however tenuous made me who I am and convinced me about the realities of SEA. It gave me a style of relationships that preserves my sanity.

It is easy to go crazy here. Reality is sometimes hard to find. Easier to dwell in fantasy. Easier to speak English. Do most men who teach their women English speak Thai? I would think not. It seems so obvious to me that communication between people should be in the language of the country lived they live in.

In America I would speak English. In Thailand I would speak Thai. I mention the other things simply to give you an idea of who I am and why I have come to my conclusions. I am like America except I didn't come here to change anything. I came here to experience things as they are. I would have worked out a deal with the American Indians. Given them Oklahoma and casino licenses or something. I am not a controlling person. She wants to speak English? Up to her.

[jazzbo]

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

[mark45y]

...

You could pay the VC not to shoot you. I know because I paid them.

You could buy a helicopter, or tank or drug processing lab. Anything.

You could buy your way out of trouble. I did that too...

I would very much like to read about the specific incidents - if we are allowed to remain off-topic

I lived off base. Paid the village chief so his VC relatives would not shoot me while I slept.

If a chopper went down and we did not get to it in 20 minutes it disappeared. Vietnamese took it and sold it.

I paid a person to transfer my commanding officer who kept trying to get me killed. My new CO and I got along.

[Samuian]

All of these things however tenuous made me who I am and convinced me about the realities of SEA. It gave me a style of relationships that preserves my sanity.

It is easy to go crazy here. Reality is sometimes hard to find. Easier to dwell in fantasy. Easier to speak English. Do most men who teach their women English speak Thai? I would think not. It seems so obvious to me that communication between people should be in the language of the country lived they live in.

In America I would speak English. In Thailand I would speak Thai. I mention the other things simply to give you an idea of who I am and why I have come to my conclusions. I am like America except I didn't come here to change anything. I came here to experience things as they are.

It occured to me that speaking the language alone is by far not enough, to get into to the mind set behind a conversation, that is the real trick, then one get's closer to understand what these people are all about, very, very few can be straightforward an honest, everything seems always to be shrouded in mystery or ignorance?

Many just do not care themselves, about reality, truth ... onething is for sure, no one could care less..... then why care, to be laughed at like the lone fool on the hill?

[jazzbo]

I'm beginning to sense a Vietnam conflict version of the William Holden 'Sefton' character in Billy Wilder's Stalag 17 (though doesn't have to be set in a POW camp) -- Holden won Oscar for Best Actor in 1954 ... you can pivot on the decision to maneuver your CO elsewhere instead of just paying someone to just frag him ... arrange girls for the top brass ... cold Coors ... sounds like fun ... 3rd act you hustle the wrong guy and almost lose it yourself ... if I keep going I may have to write it myself ...

Edited October 27, 2010 by jazzbo

[domprz]

All of these things however tenuous made me who I am and convinced me about the realities of SEA. It gave me a style of relationships that preserves my sanity.

It is easy to go crazy here. Reality is sometimes hard to find. Easier to dwell in fantasy. Easier to speak English. Do most men who teach their women English speak Thai? I would think not. It seems so obvious to me that communication between people should be in the language of the country lived they live in.

In America I would speak English. In Thailand I would speak Thai. I mention the other things simply to give you an idea of who I am and why I have come to my conclusions. I am like America except I didn't come here to change anything. I came here to experience things as they are.

It occured to me that speaking the language alone is by far not enough, to get into to the mind set behind a conversation, that is the real trick, then one get's closer to understand what these people are all about, very, very few can be straightforward an honest, everything seems always to be shrouded in mystery or ignorance?

Many just do not care themselves, about reality, truth ... onething is for sure, no one could care less..... then why care, to be laughed at like the lone fool on the hill?

From something I was writing before I stumbled upon this topic (something of a coincidence):

Words, whether Thai or English, have many a purpose. When used subjectively the aim is seldom to reveal truth. They are a uniquely human creation; often so well woven, that to introduce truth is a distortion of form, of content, even of intent. It's only with no words that there are no lies, no promises and no excuses. Truth, the raw ingredient of existence, has no need of words.

[jazzbo]

It is easy to go crazy here.... It's also easy NOT to go crazy here but it does take some effort and planning ... and a willingness not to have to be right about and in control of everything ...

[mark45y]

I'm beginning to sense a Vietnam conflict version of the William Holden 'Sefton' character in Billy Wilder's Stalag 17 (though doesn't have to be set in a POW camp) -- Holden won Oscar for Best Actor in 1954 ... you can pivot on the decision to maneuver your CO elsewhere instead of just paying someone to just frag him ... arrange girls for the top brass ... cold Coors ... sounds like fun ... 3rd act you hustle the wrong guy and almost lose it yourself ... if I keep going I may have to write it myself ...

Top brass flew to the beach weekends with nurses. I scheduled the flights. I had two Co's. One in a company area where I lived and another at the office where I worked. The CO in the company area did get fragged. He was going to kill the company dog. I didn't do it. I didn't like the dog either. I would post a picture of the guy who got my office CO transferred except I owe him my life. I was two weeks away from death. I realized then that there is always someone more important than you. Always someone stronger or richer or better connected. I had forgotten all about it but I did a person a favor. And some people don't forget. Officers think they run the Army but they don't. Generals think they run the Army but they don't. Sergeants run the Army and Command Sergeant Majors run the sergeants. I don't know if it the same in the Thai army.

It was the same in the Korean army. ROK's. The ROK's were tough soldiers. They had little problems with the VC. ROK's moved into an area and the VC moved out.

They had it figured out. See, the American army taught Vietnamese liaison officers how to speak English. And these liaison offices interviewed prisoners and carried on all communications between the American army and our allies the South Vietnamese Army.

The ROK's knew all the Vietnamese liaison officers were spies and untrustworthy. So, the Korean army learned how to speak rudimentary Vietnamese and shot the liaison officers.

If I may be so bold, your (not you Jazzbo) Thai girlfriend wants to learn English and you not to learn Thai for the same reason the Vietnamese liaison officers wanted to learn English and the American officers not to learn Vietnamese.

Edited October 27, 2010 by mark45y

[domprz]

I'm beginning to sense a Vietnam conflict version of the William Holden 'Sefton' character in Billy Wilder's Stalag 17 (though doesn't have to be set in a POW camp) -- Holden won Oscar for Best Actor in 1954 ... you can pivot on the decision to maneuver your CO elsewhere instead of just paying someone to just frag him ... arrange girls for the top brass ... cold Coors ... sounds like fun ... 3rd act you hustle the wrong guy and almost lose it yourself ... if I keep going I may have to write it myself ...

I'm sure OP's memory is as vivid as your wit. Perhaps he needs to protect innocent people involved.

[jazzbo]

If there are 'innocent' people from the 1960s and 70s and they still need to rely on HIS protection they are already in big trouble

[domprz]

I'm beginning to sense a Vietnam conflict version of the William Holden 'Sefton' character in Billy Wilder's Stalag 17 (though doesn't have to be set in a POW camp) -- Holden won Oscar for Best Actor in 1954 ... you can pivot on the decision to maneuver your CO elsewhere instead of just paying someone to just frag him ... arrange girls for the top brass ... cold Coors ... sounds like fun ... 3rd act you hustle the wrong guy and almost lose it yourself ... if I keep going I may have to write it myself ...

Top brass flew to the beach weekends with nurses. I scheduled the flights. I had two Co's. One in a company area where I lived and another at the office where I worked. The CO in the company area did get fragged. He was going to kill the company dog. I didn't do it. I didn't like the dog either. I would post a picture of the guy who got my office CO transferred except I owe him my life. I was two weeks away from death. I realized then that there is always someone more important than you. Always someone stronger or richer or better connected. I had forgotten all about it but I did a person a favor. And some people don't forget. Officers think they run the Army but they don't. Generals think they run the Army but they don't. Sergeants run the Army and Command Sergeant Majors run the sergeants. I don't know if it the same in the Thai army.

It was the same in the Korean army. ROK's. The ROK's were tough soldiers. They had little problems with the VC. ROK's moved into an area and the VC moved out.

They had it figured out. See, the American army taught Vietnamese liaison officers how to speak English. And these liaison offices interviewed prisoners and carried on all communications between the American army and our allies the South Vietnamese Army.

The ROK's knew all the Vietnamese liaison officers were spies and untrustworthy. So, the Korean army learned how to speak rudimentary Vietnamese and shot the liaison officers.

If I may be so bold, your (not you Jazzbo) Thai girlfriend wants to learn English and you not to learn Thai for the same reason the Vietnamese liaison officers wanted to learn English and the American officers not to learn Vietnamese.

Thanks for the elaboration. It's not quite clear who got the CO 'fragged', but it appears that it was instigated either by you or the dog - you were in the same company (or boat) after all and it is clear that both of you had the same motive. You lost me after the first half-paragraph. Perhaps you were responding to some earlier post which I missed.

[mark45y]

I'm beginning to sense a Vietnam conflict version of the William Holden 'Sefton' character in Billy Wilder's Stalag 17 (though doesn't have to be set in a POW camp) -- Holden won Oscar for Best Actor in 1954 ... you can pivot on the decision to maneuver your CO elsewhere instead of just paying someone to just frag him ... arrange girls for the top brass ... cold Coors ... sounds like fun ... 3rd act you hustle the wrong guy and almost lose it yourself ... if I keep going I may have to write it myself ...

Top brass flew to the beach weekends with nurses. I scheduled the flights. I had two Co's. One in a company area where I lived and another at the office where I worked. The CO in the company area did get fragged. He was going to kill the company dog. I didn't do it. I didn't like the dog either. I would post a picture of the guy who got my office CO transferred except I owe him my life. I was two weeks away from death. I realized then that there is always someone more important than you. Always someone stronger or richer or better connected. I had forgotten all about it but I did a person a favor. And some people don't forget. Officers think they run the Army but they don't. Generals think they run the Army but they don't. Sergeants run the Army and Command Sergeant Majors run the sergeants. I don't know if it the same in the Thai army.

It was the same in the Korean army. ROK's. The ROK's were tough soldiers. They had little problems with the VC. ROK's moved into an area and the VC moved out.

They had it figured out. See, the American army taught Vietnamese liaison officers how to speak English. And these liaison offices interviewed prisoners and carried on all communications between the American army and our allies the South Vietnamese Army.

The ROK's knew all the Vietnamese liaison officers were spies and untrustworthy. So, the Korean army learned how to speak rudimentary Vietnamese and shot the liaison officers.

If I may be so bold, your (not you Jazzbo) Thai girlfriend wants to learn English and you not to learn Thai for the same reason the Vietnamese liaison officers wanted to learn English and the American officers not to learn Vietnamese.

Thanks for the elaboration. It's not quite clear who got the CO 'fragged', but it appears that it was instigated either by you or the dog - you were in the same company (or boat) after all and it is clear that both of you had the same motive. You lost me after the first half-paragraph. Perhaps you were responding to some earlier post which I missed.

Me? No. Company CO didn't like the dog. He told the men to get rid of the dog. Someone threw a grenade into his quarters.

[StreetCowboy]

[8>< SNIP NESTED QUOTES DELETED ><8

Me? No. Company CO didn't like the dog. He told the men to get rid of the dog. Someone threw a grenade into his quarters.

That's a wicked thing to do to a dog, even if they were just following orders. No wonder the dog had the CO fragged

SC

[DoubtingThomas]

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

A link is worth a thousand words.

Unless you want to claim them as your own.

[DoubtingThomas]

Response to DT.

By accident even more than I have written. On my final leave before going my parents and wife tried to talk me into deserting and going back to Canada. Even at Ft. Lewis waiting for a flight to Vietnam a friend of mine kept putting me at the bottom of the list of departures so every day the flights would be filled before my name came up.

I was afraid to go to Vietnam until I went and survived. Afterwards I walked with a swagger and a stare and called the guys in the national guard like Bush, pussies.

There was no period to re adjust. One day Vietnam and 24 hours later the San Francisco airport out of the army and on the way back home. I lot of guys went back to school on the GI bill including me. One day during class a car backfired outside and half the class was on the floor under their desks. It was embarrassing but kind of funny as the girls looked at all the big older guys on the floor.

I have known men who were hesitant to talk about war experiences. At first when arriving back in the States and for 20 years no one talked about it because of the negative connotation of being a Vietnam Vet. Baby burner and druggy and things like that. Among the Vets I have met here in Thailand it is a frequent conversation among most. Some no. I knew one guy here who picked up wounded guys in airlifts in difficult places. He rode a metal basket down through triple canopy jungle and loaded up the shot up bodies into his basket and up to the chopper. He only talked to me about it twice in a couple of years. I may have but I don't think I killed anyone in Vietnam. I don't have any nightmares or flashbacks. No post whatever syndrome. I do still have dreams about the sex. I think a lot of people dream about Thai women and I doubt if it is a serious mental illness.

I don't know if you have known anyone who is a writer. Writers write about war a lot. War is an important experience in a persons life. Minutes become hours. Death or the fear of death has a way of imprinting memories. I used to hunt deer before Vietnam after I never went once. I still like guns. But I don't like hunting big animals. Ducks of quail or pheasant are OK.

I talk about it because there is a misconception about the Vietnam war and the people who served there. (I did not write the following article but I believe it to be 100% accurate.

The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II. 75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled. MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos.

Back to me.

Then there is my view point on the Vietnam war, Thailand and SEA in the 1960's. There was a 10% chance of dying or being maimed in Vietnam. About 6% in WW II. In that respect it was about twice as dangerous to have been in Vietnam as WW II.

Having said that it did not strike me as that dangerous.

Most of the time it was comic. Sometimes a tragic comedy but comedy nevertheless.

Vietnam was my Catch 22. If you read Catch 22 there was a lot of sex in the book. There was a lot of sex in SEA.

During a census in the US it was determined that 4 out of 5 people who say they served in Vietnam did not.

I don't know if that is typical for only the Vietnam war or WW II as well.

My first wife's father always said he was in WWI but never talked about it. He said the problems he had with his feet were a result of being gassed in the war. After he died inquiring about funeral arrangements we found out he was never in the war and in fact never even served in the army.

As for my sad life. I worked in Thailand for the last three years and stopped two months ago when my pension started. The work was both physically and mentally demanding and I was dead tired at the end of the day. I probably could have made it without working but I hate to see savings going out with nothing coming in. Now my savings are secure in a basket of currencies (no dollars) and there is enough money coming in to take care of my day to day expenses. After the three years of working here I am completely content just to stare at the clouds for a couple of months. The first week I stopped working I didn't even go out of the condo. I was so happy not to be getting up at 6 AM and getting home at 9PM. People still call me weekly and offer me work. I tell them I am on holiday for a year.

I don't know what I want to do. I know more what I don't want to do.

There have been definitive fiction works written about WWI and WW II but not really Vietnam. I don't think I have the talent to write the definitive Vietnam war story but maybe a couple of short stories are within my capabilities. I know what happened but I don't know what is believable. Or if my telling makes it believable or not. When I found that photo I also found 6 articles that I had written and were published when I was 22.

They were humorous and about a very serious subject. I was a bit amazed reading them now that they were published by the Army. I also realize my writing style has remained constant. Throwing in references to sex when talking about death and helicopters. "Flying rock trick. No friends, rocks do not fly and neither does a helicopter without a main rotor blade. Like the proverbial one woman man most aviators in Vietnam fly single engine aircraft." End of quote.

I think my perspective on War and in particular war in SEA is unique. People who served in the war are upset with me for being unpatriotic and flippant about god and country and people who don't like war are upset because I am flippant about peace and those who oppose war. And of course the sexual excesses of the high and low in war are better forgotten by everyone.

"I was eating a chicken foot in the room where Lek got her abortion with acupuncture for an anesthetic. Bernie the medic treated gonorrhea in the barracks maids and shot up the cooks with heroin because no one wanted to get gamma globulin shots for hepatitis." Is it true? 100% true. Is it believable? I don't know. It is my Vietnam experience. I am no Tony P.

All of these things however tenuous made me who I am and convinced me about the realities of SEA. It gave me a style of relationships that preserves my sanity.

It is easy to go crazy here. Reality is sometimes hard to find. Easier to dwell in fantasy. Easier to speak English. Do most men who teach their women English speak Thai? I would think not. It seems so obvious to me that communication between people should be in the language of the country lived they live in.

In America I would speak English. In Thailand I would speak Thai. I mention the other things simply to give you an idea of who I am and why I have come to my conclusions. I am like America except I didn't come here to change anything. I came here to experience things as they are. I would have worked out a deal with the American Indians. Given them Oklahoma and casino licenses or something. I am not a controlling person. She wants to speak English? Up to her.

[mark45y]

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

A link is worth a thousand words.

Unless you want to claim them as your own.

I said I didn't write it. What is your point?

[domprz]

[8>< SNIP NESTED QUOTES DELETED ><8

Me? No. Company CO didn't like the dog. He told the men to get rid of the dog. Someone threw a grenade into his quarters.

That's a wicked thing to do to a dog, even if they were just following orders. No wonder the dog had the CO fragged

SC

Nooo! The sargeant-type had the CO fragged. The dog had done him the favour and Mark45y had paid him to do it (re previous brief post). I had hoped he would be as eloquent, and even more specific, about his personal experiences as he has been about the generic ones. Jazzbo may give us a few more clues...

[DoubtingThomas]

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

A link is worth a thousand words.

Unless you want to claim them as your own.

I said I didn't write it. What is your point?

Which one?

[mark45y]

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

A link is worth a thousand words.

Unless you want to claim them as your own.

What is your point of the above post?

[DoubtingThomas]

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

A link is worth a thousand words.

Unless you want to claim them as your own.

What is your point of the above post?

Well, I'm amazed I have to explain it to you, but sit down with your milk and cookie and I'll type very slowly so you understand. Comfortable? Good; then I'll begin.

S o m e p e o p l e o b v i o u s l y l i f t s t u f f f r o m w e b s i t e s a n d p r e s e n t i t a s o r i g i n a l w o r k.

OK, is that clear enough. You have done it. More than once. Indeed, you are so dumb, or arrogant, or both, that you insert this stuff apparently oblivious to the fact that a 3rd grader would recognize the style difference.

Nothing wrong with your style, btw. It's actually quite readable, a bit like a script for the "A-Team" or "CHiPs". Totally stupid fiction, but readable none the less. You know, you can watch TV at the same time as you read it and not miss much in either medium; if you skip a few sentences or scenes you're not missing anything. But carry on, lot's of people are clearly getting a bloody good laugh so you are certainly very successful on one level.

Interesting that you concluded I was referring to you. Did I mention your name? If the cap fits..................

[mark45y]

The quoted piece is pretty good for dispelling a lot of commonly held Vietnam myths. I go along with most of it except the Air America claims. I think they knew they were carrying opium. I don't see given the nights at the Snow Leopard bar how they would have missed it.

But who knows for sure. The information is readily available as there are a few real Air America pilots still living in Pattaya. I know they are real because I met them at a VFW meeting. I wanted to ask them about but it felt inappropriate at the time. The VFW meetings I went to were spent discussing health consequences of Agent Orange and funeral arrangements and pensions and taking care of vets wives and families after they died. Bureaucratic things that prevent people getting justified benefits.

I didn't think I was ever exposed to Agent Orange but found out that I was and was also covered for a lot diseases I didn't know about. Going to the meetings I mainly kept quiet and listened about health care. If I heard them correctly I can get reimbursed for treatment here in Thailand if it is a service connected disability although the process is complicated. The meetings of war vets were not quite what I expected. Not a bunch of drunks telling war stories. Although a couple guys were there to get drunk most of it was strictly business and a little more patriotic stuff than I was comfortable with but still all and all a positive experience.

I ran a small bar in Vietnam and we had a shot up seat out of a Huey and a beat up pilots helmet there. If anyone tried to tell a war story we carried him to the seat and put on the helmet. We used to show that John Wayne movie about Green Berets like kids show the rocky horror show. Beer was 10 cents. Ironic because I had written articles about not drinking nights before flying and was in fact responsible for enforcing a no drinking rule, ya right.

I really did think what I wrote about Korean troops was appropriate to the topic at hand and a salient commentary about the American Army. Intelligence is always of critical importance. If you rely on Thais or Vietnamese to tell you the truth you will be sadly misled most of the time. Few Americans had any trust or respect for the armed forces of South Vietnam. Why we would allow them to be our main source of information was always a mystery to me. The aviators wore black uniforms with purple silk scarves. That was my first clue.

The Koreans were right, speak the language and don't trust the locals. The Koreans and the Thais fighting in Vietnam were mercenaries. We paid them to fight. Although all of the soldiers on both sides got paid. I used to wonder how many VC we paid. I wasn't supposed to leave the base after dark so I had to talk my way past our MP's. On the other side I had to talk my way past the South Vietnamese Army MP's and I wasn't supposed to carry a gun in Saigon. The Americans closed most of the brothels in Saigon. They tried to make Saigon a no F zone. The whores even had a protest march to voice their displeasure. You would think Doubting Thomas was running the American Army.

I'll admit my priorities were not the same as the Army. They didn't care about me meeting hi so Vietnamese women and not getting my balls shot off. But they should have listened to me a bit more. My ideas about language were valid. We needed to have intensive language courses as much as teach pilots how to fly in bad weather. We didn't need to teach the Vietnamese or Thais how to speak English we needed to learn how to speak Vietnamese and Thai. I took my Vietnamese GF to the Bob Hope show. The cameras would pan across the audience and then up and over and back down so I didn't get in the picture. Mom and pop back is Chicago did not want to see pictures of GI's with local women. The generals could be shown with nurses but not the troops with non round eyed females. We were only there to die. Can you tell, I am still angry about it.

Perhaps that is one reason I am still so cynical. My daughters call up and I let them talk to my GF and they ask me why she doesn't speak English. She does speak a few words. She can say, “What for?”

[harrry]

I thought air america and the other companies were private companies owned by fronts for the CIA etc and the Pilots were all civilian pilots.

I thought VFW only accepted military personel who had served in a combat zone. How far down the chain does it go. Can they accept the pople who cleaned the offices as VFW members?

Edited October 28, 2010 by harrry

[mark45y]

I thought air america and the other companies were private companies owned by fronts for the CIA etc and the Pilots were all civilian pilots.

I thought VFW only accepted military personel who had served in a combat zone. How far down the chain does it go. Can they accept the pople who cleaned the offices as VFW members?

True. Some pilots flew for Air America and later joined and flew for the Air Force or the reverse.

[DoubtingThomas]

Anyone know where I can get some serious medication? How much longer are the mods going to let this clown use this thread for "How I nearly won the war in Vietnam and Other Utterly ridiculous meanderings" to put us all through such excruciating pain? This can't be right mods, surely? Where's the relevance for a start. Can't he just be invited to start an appropriately titled thread and vomit this diatribe of a sadly deluded mind there? At least we then know to keep clear.

Our fault for paying attention. I've had enough. See you all on the sensible threads. This one has run its course.

Edited October 28, 2010 by DoubtingThomas