Buddhism and autonomous thinking

[christiaan]

In fact all I read is in some way a philosophy. Whatever people tell about the relation of subject - the human - and object - the thing in itself - is philosophy, whatever name this philosophy is given

The advise not to theorize - wich often seem to mean: don't think ! - is a subjective advise.

When you are confrontred with a phenomenon, if it is a flying duck or SGI Buddhism, the understanding of that phenomenon depends on your expertise.

You yourself are the tool to come to understanding of the phenomenon you are facing.

Any advice of other people to come to an understanding of the phenomenon has to be seen in this light.

When you are impressed by the expertice of some authority, cos this authorithy is famous, high praised, highly advertised, it is possible you are starting to loose your autonomous thinking. Many people accept - in fact believe - the explanation of wonderfull authorities cos it is more convenient as to realy investigate and think themself and then they often change from an aspirant knower to a full time believer.

When you develop your self as a ' Tool For Awareness ' you study and at some point you will realise every knowledge starts with questions, an open mind, interest. You study/observe your experiences, you study general philosophy and not only Buddhist Philosophies and all its interpretations. To study just one philosophy very well could be a sign of subjectivism itself, a personal preference out of some specific personal desire. When one likes to learn about how to become aware of truth one should study the general human science related to knowledge about truth and not just the loved - interpretations? - of wisdom..

For many people this seems to be to difficult to do, because it takes energy, it takes time, it even takes some suffering.

So the people are happy to learn/accept from some authority, their answers to the questions about the essence of life are often more easy to accept and understand as the principle of a microwave.

The problem with some interpretations of the Philosophy of Buddhism, that tells the world is an illusion, is that when the world is an illusion every explanation given is an illusion also. So the illusion itself is also an illusion. And the mind telling the truth about the fact that the phenomenons in the world are illusions tells the mind telling this truth is an illusion itself. Then - by such philosophy - Buddhisme and the teachings of Buddha are illusions too. When all is illusion what is no illusion by reality and in the position to tell everything else is an illusion?

Hundreds or maybe a couple of thousand philosophers have aproached these questions now and in history. Many people nowadays think - and are unaware they do - according to the philosophy of Kant. One can recognise this in westerners when they are feeling attracted to some interpretations of Buddhism.

Kant however was heavily critisized by Hegel who did not lost connection with the real world but was not refined enough to explain his philosophy in a detailed way so this also suffered wrongfull interpretations.

But fortunately Paul Asmus, a young philosopher, wrote a very high professional philosophical book to enlighten the Philosophies of Hegel in an impressing way. (unfortunately only available in German language)

I do not write this to convert anybody to some theory, philsophy or religion, but to advocate for developing autonomous thinking.

Investigate, ask questions and you will find the truth by developping your faculty/ability of awareness.

This is in my view what Siddhartha Gautama was modelling by his life.

Then, I think you do not have to worry about the relation with your friend.

Troubles and sufferings regarding relations are always on the level of the ego, and as I understand the ego is not a problem for your friend (?)

[camerata]

I've split this post off into a new topic since it seems to more a general critique of Buddhists than a response to the SGI topic where it was posted.

In fact, the Buddha specifically warned against being "impressed by the expertice of some authority, cos this authorithy is famous, high praised, highly advertised" in the Kalama Sutta. One doesn't have to sacrifice autonomous thinking when adopting the Dhamma as a way of life. The Buddha said, "I teach dukkha and the way out of dukkha" (dukkha = unsatisfactoriness or dis-ease). So his teachings were not intended to answer all questions, they were intended as a tool to reduce or end dukkha.

If you are physically ill, you go to a doctor for advice and treatment because he knows about it and has studied it deeply. In the same way, if the problem is dukkha, you go to the Buddha for advice because he knew how to overcome it. You could go to a Freudian psychiatrist or a CBT specialist too, although it would cost more. But for those who choose it, the Dhamma is simply a tool for dealing with dukkha. It doesn't claim to offer an answer to every question in life and it doesn't require you to become an automaton.

It's true that some people seem to make practising Dhamma the main focus and activity of their life. But perhaps they just happen to be overwhelmed with dukkha in ways we can never imagine. So who are we to criticize them if they find comfort in Dhamma? After all, it's their choice.

[christiaan]

We are humans so we question and sometimes even critisize just like Buddha did as I read in different publications Buddha himself critisized different -traditional- views in his life. I understood he was unsatisfied with the life of a prince, the practice of Alara Kalama, Udaka Ramaputta, and several concepts of striving for enlightment like self-mortification.

When people need medical help more and more they not just simply go to see a doctor, they go to see a doctor they think will suit them well. When they are not happy with that doctor they go to find another doctor that they think will suit them better.

More and more people try to become a 'specialist' with regard to the illness they suffer. As a source for information to them internet is very helpfull for this.

This shows they - autonomous - want to become aware about the reality of their lifes.

Then, to be sure they will get the best treatment, there is often asked for a second opinion.

It is not said one need to become a doctor him or herself to know about what to do in case of illnes, it is - when one has the desire to become aware - said one has to follow all aspects of being sick, being advised, being treated, with an observing investigating thinking, in this way a human can be autonomous. And fortunately people more and more do so.

Then, one can see that some people who found themself the best 'doctor' or ' treatment' that exists or ever has exist - and who would object this to be the case for their life - (but how can one review/judge a 'doctor' or treatment, not being a doctor him or herself?) start to advertise for this 'doctor' or treatment in a way that in many occasions attack healthy human thinking.

What are these people then in fact doing? Showing by their suffering - being a patient - they themself suddenly became a doctor?

Then, it is not just about doctors, treatments but about healthy human thinking.

And I would say the life of Buddha probably has been a life of healthy original autonomous human thinking.

He was no follower.

[christiaan]

Camerata:

I've split this post off into a new topic since it seems to more a general critique of Buddhists than a response to the SGI topic where it was posted.

Christiaan:

I object to this remark: it is not a general critique of Buddhists. It is, as stated clearly in the text, a critique to some interpretations of the philosophy of Buddhism.

and to write the post seem to be a more general critique of Buddhists is another interpretation

[lungmi]

Camerata:

I've split this post off into a new topic since it seems to more a general critique of Buddhists than a response to the SGI topic where it was posted.

Christiaan:

I object to this remark: it is not a general critique of Buddhists. It is, as stated clearly in the text, a critique to some interpretations of the philosophy of Buddhism.

and to write the post seem to be a more general critique of Buddhists is another interpretation

You are victim of the western dualistic philosophy. Non-dualism is the Teaching of Buddha. (for Einstein too). Die Subjekt -Objekt Trennung ist das Gefängnis westlicher Philosophie. Sprachlich bedingt, wie brauchen die Kopula: Ich bin glücklich." Ich glücklich" eröffnet wie in asiatischen Sprachen alle Konnotationen.

[Vertigotogo]

Sir, with respect, the translations of the originals scripts do involve some interpretation but your use of the English language in your post (and this is where the respect kicks in) might lead to some further (mis) interpretation.

Edited October 22, 2010 by mikearmstrong

[sabaijai]

I do not write this to convert anybody to some theory, philsophy or religion, but to advocate for developing autonomous thinking.

Investigate, ask questions and you will find the truth by developping your faculty/ability of awareness.

That statement itself forms a theory and a philosophy. And it does seem to me you are trying to persuade someone to believe it.

Buddhism does not discourage autonomous thinking. If you can discover dhamma without the Tipitaka, without teachers, and without a philosopy, please do so. When you find something that hasn't been taught before, let us know

[christiaan]

Any statement involving reasonable thinking leads to a theory and in many cases to a philosophy. Like Buddha developed his theories and his philosophy, many other people developed their philosophies, the things I write have a lot to do with philosophy becos I also study philosophy and that is why I write what I write, I make no secret out of that.

Then I not like to persuade - I do not promiss anybody a happy life like many believers do - but more strongly advocate for autonomous thinking, so nothing new here too.

What news is there anyway in this 'Buddhist forum, all one would like to know about Buddhisme one can find ont the internet or in the library.

And most of it is old knowledge.

In my view on some spiritual / awareness level there is non-dualisme, but in daily life as long as we live on earth there is dualisme: the difference between subject and object, the difference we have to overcome.

When people advocate for non-dualisme in the subject-object level of daily life living in a body of matter I do not agree and I certainly do not agree this is the essence of the Life or the teachings of Buddha.

And so I show my disagreement when I read people try to attack healthy thinking in theories that are in contradiction with themself.

The view of non-dualisme was there before Siddartha Gautama was even born.

The vision of non-dualisme is Hindu and so,... much older as Buddhisme., so in fact one cannot call that is Buddhisme especially since non-dualisme is characteristic for asian way of thinking, for asian awareness.

I could even openly wonder if Buddha could do anything else as continuing this view being an Asian and out of this being cultural directed/conditioned 'inward' and not 'outward' in daily life.

There is a lot to say about the negative and positive aspects of all cultures, so I leave it to my observations as I tell the material development of human life, the circumstances of human life, has taken place in the western world, out of the western world out of western awareness. Becuase Westerners use to live more 'outward' , with their feet in reality of daily life and lesser ' inward' . When all the world would think non-dual like asians used to do and still do , we would not have dentists, good medical faculties, Starbuck coffee, dikesystyems to stop the water, heatings and coolers for the houses, cars, computers, airplanes and so on and so on, and so on. There is so much that originates in the western world. What has ever been invented in asian countries in the last 2000 years to make life living on earth less suffering?

Live standard in the western world however did rise enormously in many views.

When we just let the philosophy rest for a while and just look at experiencing daily life in many asian countries I would say very often the situations in these countries are an insult to human value and dignity on many levels, and for all ages, and this is not something I made up my self, it is something I hear the asians tell themself. How many Thai are living in the USA how many Americans are living in Thailand? And then we not even look at the age of both groups.

There is a lot to tell about life and culture in asian countries but, different from about every European country, it is not even possible to speak out in most of the Asian countries. Freedom, what freedom? Happiness, what happiness?

All observation, no opinion!

Thai I know tell me they would like to have a same kind of healthcare, labourlaws, childprotection, houses, well cared living environment, public transport, safe traffic, democracy, policeforce, and so on, and so on, in their country as they see in many western countries. And by this they do not show they live in a non-dual world.

All this talk about " the world of matter is a dream with about the same quality as the dreams we have in in the night " is talk of people who live a much better life as the life of a common Thai.

When you have to work as hard and as much as my friend in Thailand does, taking care the family, always worry about debts, food, house-rent and schools to pay, a parent dying unnecessary at young age just because the healthcare has no quality, and not knowing what next week will bring, then you do not think about duality or nonduality at all, because when you cannot keep that ' daily dream consistent ' you and your family go down. Nobody will help you.

Non-dual spiritual dreaming detached from earthly life is a luxe not many people can afford in life, since they have no pension, no bankaccount, no free healthcare, no people suffering in daily life taking care them.

When there ever will be something new for them, realy new,......let them know.

[rockyysdt]

christiaan

I thought Buddhism allows one to access a state beyond medicine, mathematics, science, & technology.

A state which, once discovered, will reveal how meaningless our materialistic & philosophical world really is compared to our true nature.

Isn't the quality of life many Asians may find themselves in compared to Westerners more a reflection of greed and inequity than anything else?

Many western nations have become wealthy by plundering the resources of poorer nations. They hold onto their power by spending trillions on weapons technology and armor.

Even so you will find that many western nations displaying advancement have a rotten core.

Look at the U.S, arguably very advanced and wealthy. It hides an underbelly of squalid poverty. Millions find themselves on the poverty line with little access to health care, dental, and education with no prospect of advancement. The wealth is shared by a few.

Edited October 24, 2010 by camerata
Unnecessary quote deleted.

[sabaijai]

All this talk about " the world of matter is a dream with about the same quality as the dreams we have in in the night "\

Who says that? I think you may be confusing Hinduism with Buddhism. Buddhist ontology is about what we see in front of us every moment.

Politics and social welfare are products of society, of groups of individuals and ultimately each individual. One participates as much or as little as one sees fit, same as in any society. Nothing in Buddhism proscribes social activism. If you see social injustice, work to set things right. Put your talk into action.

If you think the source of the problems you describe is Buddhism, then work to reform the religion or start one of your own.

[christiaan]

I do not have problems with non-dualisme since the human is the quality that can bring dualisme to non dualisme in a spiritual inner activity by awareness.

But to think, suggest and write from that moment the world of subject and object is no reality anymore and all objects are therefore illusions is just extreme subjectivisme.

And this is what we often can read on this forum. (so why you ask me who says that?)

When the tiger in the zoo, is about the same as the tiger in my dream and therefore no reality, then it is written : the world of matter is a dream with about the same quality as the dreams we have in in the night.

and all readers can notice, in general nobody reacts to such statements, there seems to be a great subjective sympathic preference for these kind of 'happiness' statements.

On the other hand when I react to this there is some preference to correct me.

(I am not complaining but thankfull, this is very helpfull with regard to my study of philosophy)

I do not think the source of the problems is Buddhism.

The source of the problems is the awareness, and in this case the awareness as it is in Asia.

(in the western world there is another awareness with other terrible problems)

Then I observe the interpretations of Buddhism are not dissolving the problems but continuing them, this tells they are in general not fruitfull in a positive way.

That is becos it is the awareness that brings people to use Buddhism from moment to moment to their subjective purpose.

Buddhism is not the essential awareness of the Thai culture.

Most of the writings on this forum are realy far far away from the reality of daily Thai life.

When awareness is the awareness living in each moment in a dynamic moving world, the moving reality of duality is part of each moment.

Without a world of duality moving from moment to moment we cannot even come to awareness on earth

This situation we only end by leaving the matterial world entering the spiritual world.

I work to reform, not a religion, but awareness, by - sometimes - making people think .

[rockyysdt]

Most of the writings on this forum are really far far away from the reality of daily Thai life.

awareness is the awareness living in each moment in a dynamic moving world, the moving reality of duality is part of each moment.

The reason why the reality of daily Thai life is far far away from the awareness of living in each moment is because for most people the world offers far too many diversions for the ego to become attached too.

Progress requires dedication and regular practice.

The reality is that at any given year/decade/century, out of the billions, perhaps only a handful will reach enlightenment.

That's not to say that continuing on the path is not worthwhile.

Edited October 24, 2010 by rockyysdt

[antsrule]

I would like to share my experience with you. It is neither notable nor unusual but for me it is unexpected. I must add, however, that it was predicted by a Buddhist monk I met when I got stuck in Thailand during the yellow shirt airport closure. Based on some of the advice I received from this monk and other Thai people, I returned home and quit my job. As my pay had increased astronomically so had my debt. Anyway, I sold what I could and gave way the rest. I eventually came back to Thailand with a backpack and one piece of luggage. On several occasions I have been completely devoid of money, including now. Here is the interesting part, I expected to suffer, I have not so far. In fact I am very happy, I have grown quite fond of Thailand and most of the people I have met. I have respect, which I did not seek nor was it something I ever had in any of my high paying jobs. I have purpose, I did not desire to have purpose but now I have it. I have security. My poverty is like a wall of armor protecting me from powerful and wealthy people and Institutions who want to take what I have but now I only have my brain and they can't have it. I have no idea where I am going but there seems to be a firm and well planned path in front of me. Every event that has happened to me, which I would have expected to be a calamity, has turned out to be an education. It is as if there is some rule of opposites.

I await the flood with trepidation like all of you but perhaps it is my destiny, of course I don't know this. Life for me has become an incredible series of opposites. Poverty bringing happiness, mental strength coming from physical weakness, respect coming from giving, purpose coming from humility. There is one more thing. I share a great love with a woman with a big heart. No one predicted this. We have complete freedom to come and go from each other and because of this our trust of each other is complete. Another opposite.

This is my thing, I have nothing to tell you or advise you about. I only wish to share my amazement with every waking moment I experience.

I know nothing of Buddhism but now I am looking. It is curious that the things you discuss are in many ways the things that physicists and mathematicians discuss.

[christiaan]

Most of the writings on this forum are really far far away from the reality of daily Thai life.

awareness is the awareness living in each moment in a dynamic moving world, the moving reality of duality is part of each moment.

The reason why the reality of daily Thai life is far far away from the awareness of living in each moment is because for most people the world offers far too many diversions for the ego to become attached too.

Progress requires dedication and regular practice.

The reality is that at any given year/decade/century, out of the billions, perhaps only a handful will reach enlightenment.

That's not to say that continuing on the path is not worthwhile.

That could be a dialogue, when people would see where they can reach an agreement in observation and work from there.

There is a given fact, in this case the 'Buddhist' situation as it is in reality in Thailand, and then the explanation of it.

But we have to see - out of autonomous thinking, without sympathy or antipathy, so in fact out of an ' emptiness awareness' - that any desired progress requires dedication and regular practice, this is the same for a novice monk as it is for some novice professional killer, or an aspirant cook.

The path to higher awareness is worthwhile, it is worthwhile to 'attach' too, it is worthwhile to 'desire', it is worthwhile to ' work' for.

[christiaan]

I would like to share my experience with you. It is neither notable nor unusual but for me it is unexpected. I must add, however, that it was predicted by a Buddhist monk I met when I got stuck in Thailand during the yellow shirt airport closure. Based on some of the advice I received from this monk and other Thai people, I returned home and quit my job. As my pay had increased astronomically so had my debt. Anyway, I sold what I could and gave way the rest. I eventually came back to Thailand with a backpack and one piece of luggage. On several occasions I have been completely devoid of money, including now. Here is the interesting part, I expected to suffer, I have not so far. In fact I am very happy, I have grown quite fond of Thailand and most of the people I have met. I have respect, which I did not seek nor was it something I ever had in any of my high paying jobs. I have purpose, I did not desire to have purpose but now I have it. I have security. My poverty is like a wall of armor protecting me from powerful and wealthy people and Institutions who want to take what I have but now I only have my brain and they can't have it. I have no idea where I am going but there seems to be a firm and well planned path in front of me. Every event that has happened to me, which I would have expected to be a calamity, has turned out to be an education. It is as if there is some rule of opposites.

I await the flood with trepidation like all of you but perhaps it is my destiny, of course I don't know this. Life for me has become an incredible series of opposites. Poverty bringing happiness, mental strength coming from physical weakness, respect coming from giving, purpose coming from humility. There is one more thing. I share a great love with a woman with a big heart. No one predicted this. We have complete freedom to come and go from each other and because of this our trust of each other is complete. Another opposite.

This is my thing, I have nothing to tell you or advise you about. I only wish to share my amazement with every waking moment I experience.

I know nothing of Buddhism but now I am looking. It is curious that the things you discuss are in many ways the things that physicists and mathematicians discuss.

Antsrule, I think this is a very interesting contribution. Thank you very very much.

There are several questions I have that could make your story of real experience have more content by given information.

- why did you go to Thailand to become a monk, why did you not stay in your home country to have the same life in your homecountry as you have now in Thailand?

- is it possible for you to stay in Thailand as long as you choose to, and why would that be possible?

- do you have or had a partner, children to take care for, parents or other family you are 'responsible' for?

- would it be possible for a Thai to do the same as you but then go to live like a monk in your home country, and if so or not so, why?

- do you stil have any means of income, pension or otherwise and when you have no money, who takes care you have a house/room , pay for this house, the food, medical care, clothes, means for personal care, travelling costs and so on?

- do you think it is possible the explanation for the fact that scientists like physicists and mathematicians - and many other - discuss these matters, are within the fact that they are often used to think intensively on a higher level out of their study and profession? And do you think with regard to their study and profession they are in some way enlighted , higher aware?

[christiaan]

christiaan

I thought Buddhism allows one to access a state beyond medicine, mathematics, science, & technology.

In daily life this is not the case, I did read somewhere at this forum the number of Monks that needs nmedical care for the consequences of heavily smoking is very substantial, I saw them in hospital and as far as I know monks do not have to pay for their own medical bills (?) even when they are damaging their health themself by smoking.

A state which, once discovered, will reveal how meaningless our materialistic & philosophical world really is compared to our true nature.

This state will not become reality by discovery but by transcendent transformation.

And in relation to eartly life wWe all will discover this state at the moment we pass the treshold of earthly life and return completely into the spiritual world again.

Isn't the quality of life many Asians may find themselves in compared to Westerners more a reflection of greed and inequity than anything else?

For a number of Thai people this could be te case but for a large number of Thai people this is also the expression for their suffering.

That is why I asked/wrote; how many Americans live in Thailand and how many Thai live in America, and not to forget: how many Thai would like to live in a foreign country?

A Vietnamsese friend told me : when Vietnam would allow all Vietnamese to go where they would like to go, the country would become almost abandoned, what would happen when Thai would be welcomed in most western countries (as certainly is not te case since most western countries are very afraid even Thai tourist will never return to Thailand)

Many western nations have become wealthy by plundering the resources of poorer nations. They hold onto their power by spending trillions on weapons technology and armor.

Even so you will find that many western nations displaying advancement have a rotten core.

Look at the U.S, arguably very advanced and wealthy. It hides an underbelly of squalid poverty. Millions find themselves on the poverty line with little access to health care, dental, and education with no prospect of advancement. The wealth is shared by a few.

By observation one can only agree with what you write about many western nations. Some people seem to think by discussing the subjects I discuss the way I do, tells I would have an antipathy towards Thailand, Thai culture or Thai people and conclude therefore I would have sympathy for western cultures

This does not apply to the way I think and write.

[rockyysdt]

By observation one can only agree with what you write about many western nations. Some people seem to think by discussing the subjects I discuss the way I do, tells I would have an antipathy towards Thailand, Thai culture or Thai people and conclude therefore I would have sympathy for western cultures

This does not apply to the way I think and write.

When you compare Thailand to Western countries what are you thinking and what are you attempting to convey?

[rockyysdt]

Most of the writings on this forum are really far far away from the reality of daily Thai life.

awareness is the awareness living in each moment in a dynamic moving world, the moving reality of duality is part of each moment.

The reason why the reality of daily Thai life is far far away from the awareness of living in each moment is because for most people the world offers far too many diversions for the ego to become attached too.

Progress requires dedication and regular practice.

The reality is that at any given year/decade/century, out of the billions, perhaps only a handful will reach enlightenment.

That's not to say that continuing on the path is not worthwhile.

That could be a dialogue, when people would see where they can reach an agreement in observation and work from there.

There is a given fact, in this case the 'Buddhist' situation as it is in reality in Thailand, and then the explanation of it.

But we have to see - out of autonomous thinking, without sympathy or antipathy, so in fact out of an ' emptiness awareness' - that any desired progress requires dedication and regular practice, this is the same for a novice monk as it is for some novice professional killer, or an aspirant cook.

The path to higher awareness is worthwhile, it is worthwhile to 'attach' too, it is worthwhile to 'desire', it is worthwhile to ' work' for.

On this we are agreed.

It's just that you keep suggesting that Buddhism and what we speak of in this forum is "far far away from the reality of daily Thai life".

Is there a reason why you attach to this or why this would surprise you given that Thailand is a predominantly Buddhist nation?

[christiaan]

Most of the writings on this forum are really far far away from the reality of daily Thai life.

awareness is the awareness living in each moment in a dynamic moving world, the moving reality of duality is part of each moment.

The reason why the reality of daily Thai life is far far away from the awareness of living in each moment is because for most people the world offers far too many diversions for the ego to become attached too.

Progress requires dedication and regular practice.

The reality is that at any given year/decade/century, out of the billions, perhaps only a handful will reach enlightenment.

That's not to say that continuing on the path is not worthwhile.

That could be a dialogue, when people would see where they can reach an agreement in observation and work from there.

There is a given fact, in this case the 'Buddhist' situation as it is in reality in Thailand, and then the explanation of it.

But we have to see - out of autonomous thinking, without sympathy or antipathy, so in fact out of an ' emptiness awareness' - that any desired progress requires dedication and regular practice, this is the same for a novice monk as it is for some novice professional killer, or an aspirant cook.

The path to higher awareness is worthwhile, it is worthwhile to 'attach' too, it is worthwhile to 'desire', it is worthwhile to ' work' for.

On this we are agreed.

It's just that you keep suggesting that Buddhism and what we speak of in this forum is "far far away from the reality of daily Thai life".

Is there a reason why you attach to this or why this would surprise you given that Thailand is a predominantly Buddhist nation?

The origin of my statement is observation.

I have, in different contributions, written what I have seen my self - and what I have read in this forum and at several places on internet.

----There is Topic on Thaivisa about the public sales of DVD at a market in Bangkok offering movies about sex with very young children---- this is possible in one of the most 'Buddhist' countries in the world??

Several sources of my informations are monks in Thailand.

Then, my Thai friends do not know a lot about Buddhism and they are not realy interesterd, they only know what was told at school.

The general level of the people overhere at Thai visa Buddhism forum tells me they know more about the phenomenon Buddhisme as the average Thai.

Buddhisme in thai culture is about the saem as Christams in the west.

Allthough many people never read the Bible and do not believe in God and certainly not in Jezus being the son of God, they still celebrate Christmas, Eastern, and some other Christian 'festivals'.

Its all part of culture, condition, habits.

There is even more to write why Buddhism is far away from daily life for most Thai, but I think I would get in trouble since reporting observations is seen as negative critique, by sympathisers.

I am not attach to a reason, i am attached to observational thinking, that makes me tell Thailand is in the essence not a predominantly Buddhist nation, it is maybe mainly predominantly orange,... just the surface.

.

[christiaan]

By observation one can only agree with what you write about many western nations. Some people seem to think by discussing the subjects I discuss the way I do, tells I would have an antipathy towards Thailand, Thai culture or Thai people and conclude therefore I would have sympathy for western cultures

This does not apply to the way I think and write.

When you compare Thailand to Western countries what are you thinking and what are you attempting to convey?

I wanted to convey that I agree with the small part you wrote about Many western nations........

[christiaan]

I would like to share my experience with you. It is neither notable nor unusual but for me it is unexpected. I must add, however, that it was predicted by a Buddhist monk I met when I got stuck in Thailand during the yellow shirt airport closure. Based on some of the advice I received from this monk and other Thai people, I returned home and quit my job. As my pay had increased astronomically so had my debt. Anyway, I sold what I could and gave way the rest. I eventually came back to Thailand with a backpack and one piece of luggage. On several occasions I have been completely devoid of money, including now. Here is the interesting part, I expected to suffer, I have not so far. In fact I am very happy, I have grown quite fond of Thailand and most of the people I have met. I have respect, which I did not seek nor was it something I ever had in any of my high paying jobs. I have purpose, I did not desire to have purpose but now I have it. I have security. My poverty is like a wall of armor protecting me from powerful and wealthy people and Institutions who want to take what I have but now I only have my brain and they can't have it. I have no idea where I am going but there seems to be a firm and well planned path in front of me. Every event that has happened to me, which I would have expected to be a calamity, has turned out to be an education. It is as if there is some rule of opposites.

I await the flood with trepidation like all of you but perhaps it is my destiny, of course I don't know this. Life for me has become an incredible series of opposites. Poverty bringing happiness, mental strength coming from physical weakness, respect coming from giving, purpose coming from humility. There is one more thing. I share a great love with a woman with a big heart. No one predicted this. We have complete freedom to come and go from each other and because of this our trust of each other is complete. Another opposite.

This is my thing, I have nothing to tell you or advise you about. I only wish to share my amazement with every waking moment I experience.

I know nothing of Buddhism but now I am looking. It is curious that the things you discuss are in many ways the things that physicists and mathematicians discuss.

Antsrule, an important part of awareness, coming to knowledge and enter a state of autonomous thinking is: asking questions.

One of the impressing aspects of the biography of Buddha was that this story tells he wanted to know, he was still young but had a desire to find answerts to his questions to find knowledge.

- did you ask questions in your life before about the meaning of life, about suffering, compassion and love, if not why did you not?

- did you study any philosophy or religion before, why did you and if not why didn't you??

- did a monk ask you the questions you maybe did not ask your self?

I know there are western countries where it is possible to quit a job and have an unemployment benefit to live a life where other people take care you by their efforts (they pay tax for this) , so it would be possible for someone to investigate the essential questions and answers of life without being stressed by work, without almost no responsibillity anymore.

Why not choose for that situation?

There are free libraries, Buddhist centres, and so all knowledge about Buddism is within reach in every developed and sometimes not developed country.

[rockyysdt]

The origin of my statement is observation.

I have, in different contributions, written what I have seen my self - and what I have read in this forum and at several places on internet.

----There is Topic on Thaivisa about the public sales of DVD at a market in Bangkok offering movies about sex with very young children---- this is possible in one of the most 'Buddhist' countries in the world??

Several sources of my informations are monks in Thailand.

Then, my Thai friends do not know a lot about Buddhism and they are not realy interesterd, they only know what was told at school.

The general level of the people overhere at Thai visa Buddhism forum tells me they know more about the phenomenon Buddhisme as the average Thai.

Buddhisme in thai culture is about the saem as Christams in the west.

Allthough many people never read the Bible and do not believe in God and certainly not in Jezus being the son of God, they still celebrate Christmas, Eastern, and some other Christian 'festivals'.

Its all part of culture, condition, habits.

There is even more to write why Buddhism is far away from daily life for most Thai, but I think I would get in trouble since reporting observations is seen as negative critique, by sympathisers.

I am not attach to a reason, i am attached to observational thinking, that makes me tell Thailand is in the essence not a predominantly Buddhist nation, it is maybe mainly predominantly orange,... just the surface.

You will find that this phenomenon is common throughout the world.

I'm mindful that Buddhism should not be blamed, based on observation of those who profess to follow it.

Most people carry a facade which ties them to a family, group, team, clan, faith, nation and so on. Mankind has a need to belong.

Internally Individuals will have all manner of thought and behavior during their lifetime which will contradict their facade.

Their ignorance and attachment to ego locks them into the cycle of Samsara.

[rockyysdt]

I know there are western countries where it is possible to quit a job and have an unemployment benefit to live a life where other people take care you by their efforts (they pay tax for this) , so it would be possible for someone to investigate the essential questions and answers of life without being stressed by work, without almost no responsibility anymore.

Why not choose for that situation?

There are free libraries, Buddhist centres, and so all knowledge about Buddism is within reach in every developed and sometimes not developed country.

I personally find many centres in Western countries tend to be ego based, some charging many thousands of dollars for a retreat which maybe offered in Thailand for cost.

I am wary of those who offer spiritual guidance for monetary gain.

Also it is possible to seek a guide schooled in the traditional ways of Theravada the original teachings of the Buddha.

Edited October 26, 2010 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

I thought Buddhism allows one to access a state beyond medicine, mathematics, science, & technology.

A state which, once discovered, will reveal how meaningless our materialistic & philosophical world really is compared to our true nature.

Isn't the quality of life many Asians may find themselves in compared to Westerners more a reflection of greed and inequity than anything else?

Many western nations have become wealthy by plundering the resources of poorer nations. They hold onto their power by spending trillions on weapons technology and armor.

Even so you will find that many western nations displaying advancement have a rotten core.

Look at the U.S, arguably very advanced and wealthy. It hides an underbelly of squalid poverty. Millions find themselves on the poverty line with little access to health care, dental, and education with no prospect of advancement. The wealth is shared by a few.

Hi Rocky! Usually I find myself -- overall -- in agreement with much of your way of looking at things, but not this time.

To begin with -- the state you can achieve -- once you've discovered it. Hmmmm. May I assume this is not from your personal experience, but rather what you have heard others say?

Then you talk about western nations plundering poorer nations. That has certainly been true in the past. But to place one nation's poverty on the shoulders of another nation is, I believe, rather short-sighted. Let's take Thailand, as an example. Has the west taken natural resources from Thailand -- over time you can say yes to things such as rubber from the south, rice (which Thailand continues to push western nations to buy), shrimp (which is primarily raised on shrimp farms, not any longer taken from the Gulf Of Thailand, and which, like rice, Thailand pushes the western markets to buy...and by the way, it's rare to pick up frozen shrimp in American grocery stores that isn't from Thailand, and likewise, Thailand's manufacturing industries are aimed not primarily at internal markets, but rather toward exports. In fact, according to Wikipedia, "The economy of Thailand is an emerging economy which is heavily export-dependent, with exports accounting for more than two thirds of gross domestic product". In other words, take away the plundering and Thailand's economy collapses.

And I think that one could make a strong case that it is forces of greed WITHIN Thailand that rapes Thailand of much of its bounty. I doubt that I even need to explain this concept.

Your comments about the military might of western nations...I can't argue with. But I would point out that often it is the smaller nations that spend a greater percentage of the GDP on military than some of the western nations. For example, "With a budget of almost USD4.5 billion programmed for 2008, Thailand has jumped from being a relative minnow in South Asia to one of the region's top spenders. The large budget increases in 2007 and 2008 have seen Thai defence expenditure leap above both Malaysia and Indonesia...."

And finally, in regard to your comment about America's "underbelly of squalid poverty. Hmmm. Some of this is relative. For example, there are many apartment units in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. (for example in Arlington and Alexandria, and even rich Fairfax County) where you will find 16 people or more living in a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment. And, people ask why. The answer is that it's still better than how they lived in El Salvador or Nicaragua. In the American schools in which I have taught or administered, we always had some contingent of poor kids...and yet, even they lived better than many, many people in Issan or the deep south of Thailand...had better health care, better food supplies, and a generally higher standard of living. Again, it's all relative. And I remind you that the standard of living gap between the rich and poor in most third world countries is higher than the standard living gap between the rich and poor in America.

I guess what I am trying to say is that your viewpoint seems to me to be rather non-Buddhist. To me, a Buddhist puts the responsibility on himself, rather than on what others do.

[christiaan]

Rockyssdt: I'm mindful that Buddhism should not be blamed, based on observation of those who profess to follow it.

Christiaan: I dont understand what you - in this context - mean with : blaming

When someone tells the grass is green and the birds are singing is this person then blaming the grass and the birds?

This makes me wonder what your comments have been to the book " Broken Budda".

It tells me, you would not have written that book, you also would not have told like some monks did: Buddhism in Thailand is a laugh.

It gives the impression you are attached to and defend some perception you have of Buddhism that maybe is not the same as it is actual be shown in most of the world.

Then I realy object that the way Buddhism is lived in the world is about the same as it is in Thailand, as that realy is not very common in the world. (but that is probably not what you tell)

Some of Buddhism is wellknown in the world, but it is in Europe not realy a significant part of culture, not at all.

[rockyysdt]

Rockyssdt: I'm mindful that Buddhism should not be blamed, based on observation of those who profess to follow it.

Christiaan: I dont understand what you - in this context - mean with : blaming

When someone tells the grass is green and the birds are singing is this person then blaming the grass and the birds?

This makes me wonder what your comments have been to the book " Broken Budda".

It tells me, you would not have written that book, you also would not have told like some monks did: Buddhism in Thailand is a laugh.

It gives the impression you are attached to and defend some perception you have of Buddhism that maybe is not the same as it is actual be shown in most of the world.

Then I realy object that the way Buddhism is lived in the world is about the same as it is in Thailand, as that realy is not very common in the world. (but that is probably not what you tell)

Some of Buddhism is wellknown in the world, but it is in Europe not realy a significant part of culture, not at all.

Hi Christiaan

I think it has been misunderstanding of what each of us are attempting to say rather than anything else.

As English is not your native language l may have misinterpreted a number of your points.

The main thrust of what I wanted to convey is that Buddhism as the Buddha taught & what many people actually practice maybe be two very different things and that this explains why a Buddhist nation such as Thailand doesn't appear to have been able to harvest the rewards of the noble path.

Naturally most westerners seeking Buddhist knowledge would recognize the difference between superstition, lucky charms & animism vs orthodox Buddhist Dhamma.

Unfortunately Thais have been raised for many centuries on belief and practice which has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

Such practice among uneducated and poor would be difficult to eradicate particularly if many of the ordained assist to perpetuate this state.

Regardless of what people practice orthodox Buddhism remains worthwhile practicing.

[christiaan]

Hi Christiaan

I think it has been misunderstanding of what each of us are attempting to say rather than anything else.

As English is not your native language l may have misinterpreted a number of your points.

The main thrust of what I wanted to convey is that Buddhism as the Buddha taught & what many people actually practice maybe be two very different things and that this explains why a Buddhist nation such as Thailand doesn't appear to have been able to harvest the rewards of the noble path.

Naturally most westerners seeking Buddhist knowledge would recognize the difference between superstition, lucky charms & animism vs orthodox Buddhist Dhamma.

Unfortunately Thais have been raised for many centuries on belief and practice which has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

Such practice among uneducated and poor would be difficult to eradicate particularly if many of the ordained assist to perpetuate this state.

Regardless of what people practice orthodox Buddhism remains worthwhile practicing.

Hello Rockyysdt

You are right about the two different things. I think this, but I also think the way Buddhism is unaware handled in general in Thai culture is like a smoke screen hiding the true nature of the culture.

Allthough not the same, It makes me think about the way the Chinese 'communist' party uphold the image and the idea of Mao to keep that culture together, while in any western country it would have been possible a figure like Mao would even posthumously be convicted for what he did to the Chinese people. Economically spoken there still is some strong shadow of the caste system in Thailand and one maybe could look to the rich families as the transformation of the upperclass of Brahman religious leaders before, like Mao was in fact a transformation of an emperor not wearing expensive robes but disguised in the blue overall of an ordinary worker.

I do not blame Thai culture for what it is, I am well aware the Thai culture, the Thai people have their 'collective' Karma, it is just sad that what could take this culture to a higher level is not only neglected but also abused,

Just realise the message of compassion and love is on the doorstep, but the majority of the thai people struggle to survive in daily life in a culture where a minority is pulling the ropes of daily life.

Lets face it, the 'religion' of money is probably the most important drive in Thai society and it seems the Thai people are in some way imprisoned economical and cultural by a small very rich group of powerfull people connected to the worldwide 'religion' of money.

On the other side I can see many western people, out of their luxury, are very much connected to their interpretation of Buddhism and then they often think they then know the answers to the important questions in life. They however never seem to be interested in answering these questions out of the western path and that often shows they where as superficial before as they are with Buddhism now.

Do we realy think just detaching and feeling happy becos we detached ourselfs as westerners from responsibillity, the burden of material life - we often happily consumed, with a good education and circumstances, as westerners many years before- to have us self spiritually and materially taken care by the poor people of Thai culture will take us to nirvana to never return again in this 'suffering' life????

Lets face it, this attitude is an attitude most Thai cannot afford and the ones that can are more interested to be or become part of the most rich in the world.

Yes there are some doing well, but those people are an absolute minority.

I often ask myself: do my friends give money to the Buddhist monasteries in Thailand so also the westerners in their orange robes with their laptops, do not have to worry about their housing, clothing, food, medical care, transport and so on and then having an even better life as guest in Thailand as my native Thai friends in their country???.

I apreciate the idea of detachment, but detachment is not the same as running away, escaping a material western life with all responsibillities, a life that showed a person could not fill it with spirituality with deeper meaning living it, and then travel to a culture to live like a pensioner dreaming away in some non-dual superficial meditations.

Just imagine what would happen with Buddhism when , for some reason, it would not be allowed anymore to distinguish yourself by clothing or decoration form other people, when outside a monastry?

I hope you understand me, I am not attacking Buddha or his teachings whatever they have been.

[rockyysdt]

<br><br>On the other side I can see many western people, out of their luxury,  are very much connected to their interpretation of Buddhism and then they often think they then know the answers to the important questions in life. They however never seem to be interested in answering these questions out of the  western path and that often shows they where as superficial before as they are with Buddhism now.<br>Do we realy think just detaching and feeling happy becos we detached ourselfs as westerners from responsibillity,  the burden of material life - <i>we often happily consumed, with a good education and circumstances, as westerners many years before</i>- to have us self  spiritually and materially taken care by the poor people of Thai culture will take us to nirvana to never return again in this 'suffering' life????<br><br>Lets face it, this attitude is an attitude most Thai cannot afford and the ones that can are more interested to be or become part of the most rich in the world.<br><br>Yes there are some doing well, but those people are an absolute minority. <br>I often ask myself: do my friends give money to the Buddhist monasteries in Thailand so also the westerners in their orange robes with their laptops, do not have to worry about their housing, clothing, food, medical care, transport and so on and then having an even better life as guest in Thailand as my native Thai friends in their country???.<br><br>I appreciate the idea of detachment, but detachment is not the same as running away, escaping a material western life with all responsibillities, a life that showed a person could not fill it with spirituality with deeper meaning living it, and then travel to a culture to live like a pensioner dreaming away in some non-dual superficial meditations.<br><br>Just imagine what would happen with Buddhism when , for some reason, it would not be allowed anymore to distinguish yourself by clothing or decoration form other people, when outside a monastry?<br><br>I hope you understand me, I am not attacking Buddha or his teachings whatever they have been.<br>

Those who run away from their responsibilities can't escape their impending khamma.

It's all down to intent. Ignorance or lack of self awareness are no excuse. Interestingly I recently learned of a patriarch, to a Thai family I spent time with, has ordained as a Monk.

His family relied on him for their living, but now the daughter and  grand children are now in all sorts of trouble trying to make ends meet. I won't go into what the daughter has resorted to in order to supplement her income.

I think the farmer wants to make merit but some how I think the khamma he may accumulate won't be positive.

Edited October 29, 2010 by rockyysdt