Thai-Chinese High-Speed Train Project Off Tracks

[webfact]

High-speed train project off tracks

By The Nation

BANGKOK: Parliament will delay the decision on negotiating a framework agreement between Thailand and China on a high-speed train project as the opposition and senators have not obtained details of the multi-billion-baht venture, which they say relies too much on Chinese technology.

With the Senate and the House of Representatives planning to request a joint committee to conduct a further study on the project, it will automatically delay the consideration of the proposed framework of negotiations.

The cabinet forwarded the framework for parliament's consideration in accordance with Article 190 of the Constitution.

The Constitution requires parliamentary approval before any agreement is made with foreign countries. Former deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban made the initial deal to have an agreement with China months ago when he was in office.

ON PARLIAMENT AGENDA

In the first reading on October 19, many opposition MPs and senators criticised the government, saying it gave them too few details of the Bt700 billion-Bt800 billion project which ran into only 13 pages. The proposal will be back on Parliament's agenda in today's session.

Senator Narumol Siriwat said the project would be useful for rail development in Thailand, but that it relied too much on Chinese technology.

"We don't look down on Chinese technology but just want the government to seek more options and choices for Parliament to consider," she said.

"What about Japanese, South Korean or European technology? They are also experienced in running high-speed trains but why doesn't the government propose these countries for comparison?" she queried.

The government's proposal lacked a risk analysis, business returns and an environmental impact assessment report, she said.

Many senators did not want to approve the framework of negotiations because the project was too risky as the government would create more public debt because of the project, she added.

Senator Supot Phothongkham said the government whip proposed that a 35- member joint committee conduct a further study on the framework agreement as well as the project. The Senate has already submitted a list of nine senators who will be part of the committee, he said.

-- The Nation 2010-10-26

[Ricardo]

Why don't the government compare the Chinese-proposal with other countries' technology ? Perhaps because none of those other countries are proposing to finance this new system ?

[Longtooth]

Why don't the government compare the Chinese-proposal with other countries' technology ? Perhaps because none of those other countries are proposing to finance this new system ?

Hello!!! And "exactly!"

[Daewoo]

All European and Asian suppliers have access to finance through their ecconomic communities/national banks... although the finance terms are unlikely be as nice as the Chinese Gov't, who has more money than anyone in the Universe, and use it for their intent of world domination...

I am sure the fine print on any Chinese funding will be a bitch...

I work for a Chinese company, and all European vendors are able to equal us in financing deals up to $US1B... never been involved in a deal bigger than that to know when the European finance providers get nervous...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Edited October 26, 2010 by Daewoo

[RickBradford]

Having spent several more tedious hours than expected on Thailand's rail system yesterday, I can't believe that Thailand is serious about a decent rail line, especially if it has to pay for it.

Look at the stark differences; the national highway network is in excellent shape, effortlessly whisking the owners of big pick-up trucks all round the country.

The trains are slow, dirty, and uncomfortable, clearly maintained in an appropriate way for the peasants who make up the bulk of the customers.

I love train travel, but a 'Special Express' that takes over 8 1/2 hours to cover 450 kilometers is taking the p*ss somewhat when you could do it in half the time by car.

[overdog]

Look at the stark differences; the national highway network is in excellent shape, effortlessly whisking the owners of big pick-up trucks all round the country.

Sorry, but I had to chuckle at this description of the highway network, especially the "... effortlessly whisking ... of big pick-up trucks ..." I do agree that the general comparison of the existing rail and highway systems is a fair one. Unfortunately, the integrity of the highway construction is terribly inconsistent. One trip up the Mithrapap Highway will prove my point. There are too many instances of big pick-up trucks making big efforts to un-whisk their way through, around (and create) craters in the road surface - all of which has exacerbated in the recent floods.

[dominique355]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

[RedNIvar]

Sorry to bring this nagging point up again, but it's all about the Chinese tea money. With a project this big there has to be large payouts. If you think the 3G fiasco was a cluster "fornication", this rail system will be worse. Every other politician from either side jockeying to head this up.

"Corrupt politicians make the other ten percent look bad.- Kissinger" Somehow I think he must have quoted this after his trip to Thailand.

[rubl]

'high speed train'? With the current flooding NO train service for a while.

Edited October 26, 2010 by rubl

[elshaheen]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

In a recent article on BBC, just a couple weeks back. BBC reported that Chinese copy everything, I mean everything. Nothing is pretty much original work. Look at their military advances in Technology. They've been busted several times for computer hacking, books, even degrees. Same as Korean everything is a copy of a copy from another company.

[marquess]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

In a recent article on BBC, just a couple weeks back. BBC reported that Chinese copy everything, I mean everything. Nothing is pretty much original work. Look at their military advances in Technology. They've been busted several times for computer hacking, books, even degrees. Same as Korean everything is a copy of a copy from another company.

Perhaps now, but check out the Chinese inventions of Gunpowder, Paper, Banknotes and the Compass, the lattter before the birth of Christ and more than a thousand years before the Europeans, who reckon they invented nearly everything! see:http://www.sacu.org/greatinventions.html

[rubl]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

In a recent article on BBC, just a couple weeks back. BBC reported that Chinese copy everything, I mean everything. Nothing is pretty much original work. Look at their military advances in Technology. They've been busted several times for computer hacking, books, even degrees. Same as Korean everything is a copy of a copy from another company.

Perhaps now, but check out the Chinese inventions of Gunpowder, Paper, Banknotes and the Compass, the lattter before the birth of Christ and more than a thousand years before the Europeans, who reckon they invented nearly everything! see:http://www.sacu.org/greatinventions.html

Greatness in the past gives no guarantee for the future. Still with 1.5 billion people there should be a few geniuses and inventive minds in China. In the Netherlands with 17 million people we have some, but it tends to be hard work, elaborate schooling system, stressing individualism and thinking for yourself, etc., etc.

[RedNIvar]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

In a recent article on BBC, just a couple weeks back. BBC reported that Chinese copy everything, I mean everything. Nothing is pretty much original work. Look at their military advances in Technology. They've been busted several times for computer hacking, books, even degrees. Same as Korean everything is a copy of a copy from another company.

Perhaps now, but check out the Chinese inventions of Gunpowder, Paper, Banknotes and the Compass, the lattter before the birth of Christ and more than a thousand years before the Europeans, who reckon they invented nearly everything! see:http://www.sacu.org/greatinventions.html

Greatness in the past gives no guarantee for the future. Still with 1.5 billion people there should be a few geniuses and inventive minds in China. In the Netherlands with 17 million people we have some, but it tends to be hard work, elaborate schooling system, stressing individualism and thinking for yourself, etc., etc.

All the Chinese minds are now working for all the big corporations in the US and Europe. Heck, I think 2/3 of California is filled with Chinese and Indians.

[overdog]

Methinks the point has been lost in translation. With a better choice of words it could read as follows (please forgive the editorial licence I've assumed):

Senator Narumol Siriwat said the project would be useful for rail development in Thailand.

"We ... just want the government to seek more options and choices for Parliament to consider," she said.

"What about Japanese, South Korean or European technology? They are also experienced in running high-speed trains but why doesn't the government propose these countries for comparison?" she queried.

The government's proposal lacked a risk analysis, business returns and an environmental impact assessment report, she said.

The senator says some things that sound logical and fair-minded. We would expect our own home governments to do likewise when considering work projects.

[rreddin]

Methinks the point has been lost in translation. With a better choice of words it could read as follows (please forgive the editorial licence I've assumed):

Senator Narumol Siriwat said the project would be useful for rail development in Thailand.

"We ... just want the government to seek more options and choices for Parliament to consider," she said.

"What about Japanese, South Korean or European technology? They are also experienced in running high-speed trains but why doesn't the government propose these countries for comparison?" she queried.

The government's proposal lacked a risk analysis, business returns and an environmental impact assessment report, she said.

The senator says some things that sound logical and fair-minded. We would expect our own home governments to do likewise when considering work projects.

In a major project such as this, I would have expected the points the senator made would have been adequately covered in the initial feasability study. Delaying consideration of the "framework agreement" to enable these things to be done is a step in the right direction. I hope they are done and done properly so that Parliament has the best information on which to make a decision.

[chantorn]

Methinks the point has been lost in translation. With a better choice of words it could read as follows (please forgive the editorial licence I've assumed):

Senator Narumol Siriwat said the project would be useful for rail development in Thailand.

"We ... just want the government to seek more options and choices for Parliament to consider," she said.

"What about Japanese, South Korean or European technology? They are also experienced in running high-speed trains but why doesn't the government propose these countries for comparison?" she queried.

The government's proposal lacked a risk analysis, business returns and an environmental impact assessment report, she said.

The senator says some things that sound logical and fair-minded. We would expect our own home governments to do likewise when considering work projects.

In a major project such as this, I would have expected the points the senator made would have been adequately covered in the initial feasability study. Delaying consideration of the "framework agreement" to enable these things to be done is a step in the right direction. I hope they are done and done properly so that Parliament has the best information on which to make a decision.

initial feasibility study? There was none.

There wasd only the initial commission study, which the Chinese will pay the best; under the table.

[webfact]

Parliament approves Thailand-China railway construction framework

BANGKOK, 26 October 2010 (NNT) - The joint parliamentary meeting has approved the signing of an MOU between Thailand and China in connection with the construction of high speed rails.

The parliament has approved the proposed MOU pertaining to the construction of five rail routes.The five rail routes agreed on are Bangkok-Nong Kai, Bangkok-Ubol Ratchatani, Bangkok-Chiang Mai, Bangkok-Rayong, and Bangkok- Padang Besar.

Working procedures will include railway improvement and management of the train services.

Before the voting, Transport Minister Sopon Zarum explained that, with co-operation from China, the Kingdom would have trains that run at least 100 kilometers per hour by 2014, adding that the MOu would not be legally binding to both countries as it was simply a memorandum of understanding; not a contract.

295 members of the meeting approved the proposal while 10 rejected it; 61 abstain and 21 did not vote. The constitution requires that cooperation, regardless of nature, between Thailand and another country must first be approved by the cabinet.

-- NNT 2010-10-26

[WarpSpeed]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

Not the Tibetan high speed rail just completed, it is all Chinese technology..

[LaoPo]

The know-how and expertise in China with hig-speed train railways is huge and immense and they have by far the largest high-speed and efficient network in the world; more than 7.000 km of high-speed train railways at this moment.

That 7.000 km includes some 2.000 km tracks with high-speed trains running up to 350km/hr.

By 2020 the HS railway network will be around 15.000 km; high-speed!

I suppose the Thai government has invited all hig-speed train builders and constructors in an earlier stage but it would have been difficult to beat the Chinese offers although I don't know any details.

But if I read that Thailand will have a network by 2014 with trains that run up to 100km I can't escape from my thoughts that Thailand is still way back from a normal western standard train network....100km/hour by 2012....

Have a look at China's network:

http://en.wikipedia....n_China#Network

Technology in China:

http://en.wikipedia....hina#Technology

High-speed rail by COUNTRY: (dated....)

http://en.wikipedia....rail_by_country

Personally, I don't think there's any other country or company in the world who could built the Thai proposed high-speed network with such good conditions and in the time they will commit themselves to do the job.

LaoPo

[WarpSpeed]

The know-how and expertise in China with hig-speed train railways is huge and immense and they have by far the largest high-speed and efficient network in the world; more than 7.000 km of high-speed train railways at this moment.

That 7.000 km includes some 2.000 km tracks with high-speed trains running up to 350km/hr.

By 2020 the HS railway network will be around 15.000 km; high-speed!

I suppose the Thai government has invited all hig-speed train builders and constructors in an earlier stage but it would have been difficult to beat the Chinese offers although I don't know any details.

But if I read that Thailand will have a network by 2014 with trains that run up to 100km I can't escape from my thoughts that Thailand is still way back from a normal western standard train network....100km/hour by 2012....

Have a look at China's network:

http://en.wikipedia....n_China#Network

Technology in China:

http://en.wikipedia....hina#Technology

High-speed rail by COUNTRY: (dated....)

http://en.wikipedia....rail_by_country

Personally, I don't think there's any other country or company in the world who could built the Thai proposed high-speed network with such good conditions and in the time they will commit themselves to do the job.

LaoPo

Well they did get a lot of experience building the railroads across the new world too..

[rreddin]

Methinks the point has been lost in translation. With a better choice of words it could read as follows (please forgive the editorial licence I've assumed):

Senator Narumol Siriwat said the project would be useful for rail development in Thailand.

"We ... just want the government to seek more options and choices for Parliament to consider," she said.

"What about Japanese, South Korean or European technology? They are also experienced in running high-speed trains but why doesn't the government propose these countries for comparison?" she queried.

The government's proposal lacked a risk analysis, business returns and an environmental impact assessment report, she said.

The senator says some things that sound logical and fair-minded. We would expect our own home governments to do likewise when considering work projects.

In a major project such as this, I would have expected the points the senator made would have been adequately covered in the initial feasability study. Delaying consideration of the "framework agreement" to enable these things to be done is a step in the right direction. I hope they are done and done properly so that Parliament has the best information on which to make a decision.

initial feasibility study? There was none.

There wasd only the initial commission study, which the Chinese will pay the best; under the table.

Thank you for that information. It suggests that the project has more to do with Chines strategic interests than Thailand's transportation requirements.

[LaoPo]

The know-how and expertise in China with hig-speed train railways is huge and immense

LaoPo

Well they did get a lot of experience building the railroads across the new world too..

If you mean the Chinese laborers, working under slave like conditions, building the railroads in America in prehistoric times , you're right.

LaoPo

[chainarong]

There's nothing wrong with China's high speed technology, i'd be more worried about the dept, at last call that was over one trillion, for high speed rail projects inside the PRC.

[chainarong]

The know-how and expertise in China with hig-speed train railways is huge and immense and they have by far the largest high-speed and efficient network in the world; more than 7.000 km of high-speed train railways at this moment.

That 7.000 km includes some 2.000 km tracks with high-speed trains running up to 350km/hr.

By 2020 the HS railway network will be around 15.000 km; high-speed!

I suppose the Thai government has invited all hig-speed train builders and constructors in an earlier stage but it would have been difficult to beat the Chinese offers although I don't know any details.

But if I read that Thailand will have a network by 2014 with trains that run up to 100km I can't escape from my thoughts that Thailand is still way back from a normal western standard train network....100km/hour by 2012....

[LaoPo]

Methinks the point has been lost in translation. With a better choice of words it could read as follows (please forgive the editorial licence I've assumed):

Senator Narumol Siriwat said the project would be useful for rail development in Thailand.

"We ... just want the government to seek more options and choices for Parliament to consider," she said.

"What about Japanese, South Korean or European technology? They are also experienced in running high-speed trains but why doesn't the government propose these countries for comparison?" she queried.

The government's proposal lacked a risk analysis, business returns and an environmental impact assessment report, she said.

The senator says some things that sound logical and fair-minded. We would expect our own home governments to do likewise when considering work projects.

In a major project such as this, I would have expected the points the senator made would have been adequately covered in the initial feasability study. Delaying consideration of the "framework agreement" to enable these things to be done is a step in the right direction. I hope they are done and done properly so that Parliament has the best information on which to make a decision.

initial feasibility study? There was none.

There wasd only the initial commission study, which the Chinese will pay the best; under the table.

Thank you for that information. It suggests that the project has more to do with Chines strategic interests than Thailand's transportation requirements.

I'm sure the esteemed member Chantorn has proof for his allegations; we're waiting for it.

And, for Chinese strategic interests; of course there are interests but what the Chinese can also do is speed up the process and build high speed train links directly from their border into Burma and down to the coast instead of building strategic lines via Vietnam, Laos and Thailand, Malaysia into Singapore.

In such a case Thailand will completely fall off the train, instead joining the train.

Next to that, Thailand (and the other mainland SE Asian countries) will benefit also enormously by transporting their products and commodities into China, Korea, Japan and WHAT'S MORE....the West Coast of Canada and the USA............ cheaper and MUCH faster via harbors in Northern China !

But, many here are very shortsighted and only here to bash (again) upon China, but instead, these people should study a little bit what other plans China, India, Russia and Europe have in mind with plans which are having FAR MORE strategic benefits for all involved, like building a high-speed railway links from China to Europe.

Basically, there are already 3 MAJOR plans in development and pre-construction stadia:

1. A direct railway link from China via Russia into Europe with end destination in London

2. The same with a link via India and Middle East

3. A link, like discussed now, from Northern China via Vietnam, Laos (possible Cambodia) Thailand, Malaysia to Singapore.

There's more on the horizon than just Thailand.

ALL those railway links WILL come and it's not q question of IF but when.

The transport of important goods, both ways: China Europe and Europe China into all countries in between will speeds up the delivery time from 4 - 5 weeks by sea-container into 3-5 days.

The same for the Northern China link into Singapore and vice versa instead of slow sea-containers.

Go figure.

LaoPo

[dominique355]

Parliament approves Thailand-China railway construction framework

BANGKOK, 26 October 2010 (NNT) - The joint parliamentary meeting has approved the signing of an MOU between Thailand and China in connection with the construction of high speed rails.

The parliament has approved the proposed MOU pertaining to the construction of five rail routes.The five rail routes agreed on are Bangkok-Nong Kai, Bangkok-Ubol Ratchatani, Bangkok-Chiang Mai, Bangkok-Rayong, and Bangkok- Padang Besar.

Working procedures will include railway improvement and management of the train services.

Before the voting, Transport Minister Sopon Zarum explained that, with co-operation from China, the Kingdom would have trains that run at least 100 kilometers per hour by 2014, adding that the MOu would not be legally binding to both countries as it was simply a memorandum of understanding; not a contract.

295 members of the meeting approved the proposal while 10 rejected it; 61 abstain and 21 did not vote. The constitution requires that cooperation, regardless of nature, between Thailand and another country must first be approved by the cabinet.

-- NNT 2010-10-26

Well OK. At that speed, no need for high tech trains or tracks. Maybe the Indian technology would be sufficient.

I was under the false impression that a high speed train would reach 250 - 300 km/h. My mistake.

[LaoPo]

Parliament approves Thailand-China railway construction framework

BANGKOK, 26 October 2010 (NNT) - The joint parliamentary meeting has approved the signing of an MOU between Thailand and China in connection with the construction of high speed rails.

The parliament has approved the proposed MOU pertaining to the construction of five rail routes.The five rail routes agreed on are Bangkok-Nong Kai, Bangkok-Ubol Ratchatani, Bangkok-Chiang Mai, Bangkok-Rayong, and Bangkok- Padang Besar.

Working procedures will include railway improvement and management of the train services.

Before the voting, Transport Minister Sopon Zarum explained that, with co-operation from China, the Kingdom would have trains that run at least 100 kilometers per hour by 2014, adding that the MOu would not be legally binding to both countries as it was simply a memorandum of understanding; not a contract.

295 members of the meeting approved the proposal while 10 rejected it; 61 abstain and 21 did not vote. The constitution requires that cooperation, regardless of nature, between Thailand and another country must first be approved by the cabinet.

-- NNT 2010-10-26

Well OK. At that speed, no need for high tech trains or tracks. Maybe the Indian technology would be sufficient.

I was under the false impression that a high speed train would reach 250 - 300 km/h. My mistake.

If you read a little better it says "at least 100km/hr"; that says more about the present dated railway system of Thailand rather than a highly sophisticated high-speed system to be -eventually- build in Thailand as part of the proposed link China to S'pore.

.

At the moment it's a simple MOU (Memorandum Of Understanding)

For China it's no problem to build high-speed tracks guaranteeing a speed far over 100km/hr.

See links in previous post.

LaoPo

[rubl]

The page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:High-speed_railway_lines ) contains links to existing or proposed High Speed Links.

There's an interesting item on 'high speed train links' on wikipedia and various technical and economical aspects to it.

( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogesnelheidslijn )

To my surprise only in Dutch, German, French, Spanish, Catalan, Galego and Norwegian, Swedish.

I'm not going to translated all of that, but from the (Dutch) index:

1. Prerequisites

1.1 Traject and Alignment

1.2 Geometry

1.3 Overhead lines

1.4 Electrification

1.5 Signaling and control systems

1.7 Isolation of tracks

1.8 Loading gauge (Profile of free space)

1.9 Track points

Forget about the economical aspects for the moment. Most see a high speed link as prestige object anyway.

Enough info I hope to convince even politicians that to put a shovel in the ground now would be a wee bit premature

[LaoPo]

The page ( http://en.wikipedia....d_railway_lines ) contains links to existing or proposed High Speed Links.

There's an interesting item on 'high speed train links' on wikipedia and various technical and economical aspects to it.

( http://nl.wikipedia....gesnelheidslijn )

To my surprise only in Dutch, German, French, Spanish, Catalan, Galego and Norwegian, Swedish.

I'm not going to translated all of that, but from the (Dutch) index:

1. Prerequisites

1.1 Traject and Alignment

1.2 Geometry

1.3 Overhead lines

1.4 Electrification

1.5 Signaling and control systems

1.7 Isolation of tracks

1.8 Loading gauge (Profile of free space)

1.9 Track points

Forget about the economical aspects for the moment. Most see a high speed link as prestige object anyway.

Enough info I hope to convince even politicians that to put a shovel in the ground now would be a wee bit premature

You talk the same as the ones who said 100 years ago that it would be impossible to fly to the other side of the world within 24 hours or less than that.

There's something called future rubl and I'm happy that a few people in The Netherlands BELIEVED that it could be done and it was an (American Built by Douglas) Dutch plane -De Uiver- that won the handicapped race from England to Australia in 1934 and flew there in just 4 days in 90 hours and 17 minutes.

Negativity won't stop the planning of realistic futuristic plans like high-speed railways, whether some are still old fashioned thinking or not.

That railway link from China to Singapore WILL come, no doubt about it; it depends on the intelligence of the Thai government if they have the vision to accept that they HAVE to realize it's of great importance to Thailand's exports also.

LaoPo

[MaiChai]

How about using Thai technology? Every carriage could have a somtam vendor.