How Does The Fetus Scandal Affect Your Confidence In Thai Buddhism

[phetaroi]

As you know, I'm back living in the States, and the Thai fetus scandal is quite the headline here on outlets such as CNN and MSNBC, although I will say they give it rather balanced reporting...describing fairly accurately the legal status of abortions in Thailand. It may be "sensational" news, but so far the reporting here has been rather matter-of-fact.

I must admit that this situation rather disturbs me and further shakes my "faith" in Thai Buddhism. I could dismiss it if it were one or two monks, but certainly a cover-up of this extent was known by quite a few monks...anyone know how many monks that temple has?

What does this say about Thai Buddhist respect for life?

How is it affecting your feelings about Thai Buddhism?

[Brucenkhamen]

It hasn't been reported here so this is the first I've heard of it.

So from what I can gather a women was doing a roaring trade performing a service of illegal abortions, presumably for those who couldn't afford a legal one.

The temple that was supposed to cremate the bodies as temples are supposed to do couldn't keep up with the volume so had a big backlog.

I'm not sure why this would to modify my feelings for Thai respect for life or Thai Buddhism, did you think there were no abortions in Thailand because it is a Buddhist country?

[fabianfred]

Do not forget that the true Dhamma, the Ultimate truth, is always true, irrespective of those who misunderstand it or disbelieve it, or do not practice it.

My own faith in it is unshakeable and it is not the fault of the Dhamma if beings do not follow it.

Nowadays there ae hardly enough monks to populate the temples...especially out of the Pansa period....and some have no monks at all.

Edited November 19, 2010 by fabianfred

[christiaan]

This is the truth of Thailand.

[Carib]

This is not just the truth of Thailand, but from every country, even the ones with the so called christian fundamentalists, the only difference is that they get rid of the evidence in a better way.

All religions or believes are man made, so what is it that you expect to see in the way it is displayed? A "devine" way?

[rockyysdt]

It hasn't been reported here so this is the first I've heard of it.

So from what I can gather a women was doing a roaring trade performing a service of illegal abortions, presumably for those who couldn't afford a legal one.

The temple that was supposed to cremate the bodies as temples are supposed to do couldn't keep up with the volume so had a big backlog.

I'm not sure why this would to modify my feelings for Thai respect for life or Thai Buddhism, did you think there were no abortions in Thailand because it is a Buddhist country?

I suppose it must be said, as FabianFred indicated, that this phenomena is not due to the teachings of Buddha (dhamma) but to the practice of individuals.

As Vince alluded, it's still worth noting that those who are supposed to be closest to the well (Monks) should be so complicit.

It's rather damning in terms of Buddhist precepts, teachings and values.

On another note, condoms are way too expensive in Thailand in relation to average wages.

Education & affordable access to condoms could radically reduce the incidence of abortion and remove conditions which can give rise to khamma.

Edited November 20, 2010 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

I've never had any unrealistic expectations of Thais, so this doesn't affect me at all. What Thais do or don't do has no bearing on my practice of the Dhamma. As Ajahn Chah said, "Thais don't do those things because they are Buddhist, they do them because they are human."

[rockyysdt]

I've never had any unrealistic expectations of Thais, so this doesn't affect me at all. What Thais do or don't do has no bearing on my practice of the Dhamma. As Ajahn Chah said, "Thais don't do those things because they are Buddhist, they do them because they are human."

Shouldn't it affect us in terms of loving kindness towards others.

For example we could be activists for condom subsidies or push for a national review of contraception.

[sabaijai]

It would depend on your views about abortion. Illegal abortion is a fairly normal event in countries with abortion laws.

Are you disturbed because the abortions were illegal or because they took place at all? Generally speaking there isn't a unified view on abortion in any school of Buddhism.

[sabaijai]

This is the truth of Thailand.

This is *one* truth of Thailand, among many.

And many other countries where abortion is legally proscribed.

[Xangsamhua]

There was some concern for a little while after the news came out, and it was taken up on another thread, that the fetuses may be used to make kuman thong (กูมารทอง), servant-spirits created from the baked corpses of fetuses removed from the wombs of mothers who died before or while giving birth. It is unknown which, if any, of the fetuses at Wat Phay Ngeun may have been taken from the wombs of deceased women; hence the fear lacks focus and direction, and I suspect is not taken seriously.

The kuman thong story originates, I believe, in 16th century Ayudhya and was written up in verse by King Rama II (1767-1824). A number of revered monks have been famous for making especially powerful amulets with images of the kuman thong child. I gather these amulets are available for "rent" from dealers and some are very expensive.

I don't think I can cite another non-thaivisa forum here, but if you google "Competition: Kuman Thong" you'll find quite a bit of information.

I don't have any "faith" in Thai Buddhism, so the discovery doesn't affect me at all in that regard. I don't know why the undertaker/caretaker was collecting the fetuses. I haven't followed the story after it first broke and the kuman thong discussion came up. My understanding is that Buddhists generally oppose abortion, but Buddhist monks can't do much to stop it, can they? If they have been asked to dispose of the fetuses using the temple's crematorium are they committing an offence? I don't know why they collected so many though.

[rockyysdt]

It would depend on your views about abortion. Illegal abortion is a fairly normal event in countries with abortion laws.

Are you disturbed because the abortions were illegal or because they took place at all? Generally speaking there isn't a unified view on abortion in any school of Buddhism.

I don't think it's a question of legality, but of taking life which is covered in the precepts.

[lannarebirth]

As you know, I'm back living in the States, and the Thai fetus scandal is quite the headline here on outlets such as CNN and MSNBC, although I will say they give it rather balanced reporting...describing fairly accurately the legal status of abortions in Thailand. It may be "sensational" news, but so far the reporting here has been rather matter-of-fact.

I must admit that this situation rather disturbs me and further shakes my "faith" in Thai Buddhism. I could dismiss it if it were one or two monks, but certainly a cover-up of this extent was known by quite a few monks...anyone know how many monks that temple has?

What does this say about Thai Buddhist respect for life?

How is it affecting your feelings about Thai Buddhism?

It is unpleasant news that we wish were different, but tell me what do Americans do with their aborted fetuses?

[christiaan]

It would depend on your views about abortion. Illegal abortion is a fairly normal event in countries with abortion laws.

Are you disturbed because the abortions were illegal or because they took place at all? Generally speaking there isn't a unified view on abortion in any school of Buddhism.

I don't think it's a question of legality, but of taking life which is covered in the precepts.

I completely agree, one could say this is a question of taking life.

Wich is also covered in logical thinking.

When there would not have been an abortion, life -in most cases, would have been the logical consequence

[phetaroi]

I guess I am looking at this very differently from you folks. The abortion issue, in and of itself, is not my concern here (although I do think most abortions are immoral).

I am looking at this as a reflection on the Triple Gem. Monks are supposed to set the example for lay people. The monks at this temple could not possibly have missed that this was happening. If the stench was strong throughout the entire neighborhood, how could monks living in temple have missed it? These monks were not responsible in their behaviors, they were not practicing "right thought", they were condoning mass abortion...I could go on.

Monks are the primary face of Buddhism in Thailand and to the world. I have already had friends here in the States ask me questions such as, "So, what do you think of Buddhism now?"

[rockyysdt]

..

..

Monks are the primary face of Buddhism in Thailand and to the world. I have already had friends here in the States ask me questions such as, "So, what do you think of Buddhism now?"

I think Camerata was correct in expressing that it's not Buddhism at fault here but is due to the action of humans.

.

[Brucenkhamen]

Monks are the primary face of Buddhism in Thailand and to the world. I have already had friends here in the States ask me questions such as, "So, what do you think of Buddhism now?"

I think if our faith were shaken by the actions of a few rogues in robes then we haven't really experienced the benefits of practising the path yet.

[khaowong1]

I've never had any unrealistic expectations of Thais, so this doesn't affect me at all. What Thais do or don't do has no bearing on my practice of the Dhamma. As Ajahn Chah said, "Thais don't do those things because they are Buddhist, they do them because they are human."

Very, Very Good..

[khaowong1]

There was some concern for a little while after the news came out, and it was taken up on another thread, that the fetuses may be used to make kuman thong (กูมารทอง), servant-spirits created from the baked corpses of fetuses removed from the wombs of mothers who died before or while giving birth. It is unknown which, if any, of the fetuses at Wat Phay Ngeun may have been taken from the wombs of deceased women; hence the fear lacks focus and direction, and I suspect is not taken seriously.

The kuman thong story originates, I believe, in 16th century Ayudhya and was written up in verse by King Rama II (1767-1824). A number of revered monks have been famous for making especially powerful amulets with images of the kuman thong child. I gather these amulets are available for "rent" from dealers and some are very expensive.

I don't think I can cite another non-thaivisa forum here, but if you google "Competition: Kuman Thong" you'll find quite a bit of information.

I don't have any "faith" in Thai Buddhism, so the discovery doesn't affect me at all in that regard. I don't know why the undertaker/caretaker was collecting the fetuses. I haven't followed the story after it first broke and the kuman thong discussion came up. My understanding is that Buddhists generally oppose abortion, but Buddhist monks can't do much to stop it, can they? If they have been asked to dispose of the fetuses using the temple's crematorium are they committing an offence? I don't know why they collected so many though.

"If they have been asked to dispose of the fetuses using the temple's crematorium are they committing an offence?" Good question, maybe Camerta can answer this one. Personally, I've never seen a temple that does cremation do them for free.. I'm sure there must be some..

[jdinasia]

I've never had any unrealistic expectations of Thais, so this doesn't affect me at all. What Thais do or don't do has no bearing on my practice of the Dhamma. As Ajahn Chah said, "Thais don't do those things because they are Buddhist, they do them because they are human."

Very, Very Good..

I concur.

This isn't about monks, and it isn't about Buddhism. It is simply about the reality of life on the ground in Thailand. The actions of some monks is no more important to me than the actions of some of the laity.

[sabaijai]

In the Pali canon, it seems clear that life it thought to begin at conception. If monks were involved in aiding or abetting abortion, also, they were in violation of the Vinaya.

The Dalai Lama has said that abortion is recommended in some circumstances (the same ones under which abortion is now legal in Thailand).

One can't get around the fact that the discovery of such a large number of aborted foetuses is shocking to many. There's a discussion on the social ramifications going on here:

As for the idea the foetuses may have been kept to sell as kuman thong, the thought crossed my mind too.

[onnut]

This goes even further than Buddhism! this goes all the way to Thai Face. and as always the Face and cover-up has made things even worse.

Thais are not great Buddhists at the best of times.

[healthcaretaker]

OP,

I don't consider myself a "true" Buddhist but I think(on the contrary) this incident gives me a stronger faith towards Buddhism.

1) Abortions happen everywhere, not just in Thailand but countries of other religions too.

2) This is not a sex scandal case cover-up like those involved in the church. Isn't there a big case that even the Pope has to make some statements ? Will Christians lose faith in their religion ?

3) The fact that they are hidden in a Buddhist temple showed to some extent that these people involved have some "merciful feelings" for the soul of the unborn.

4) Most importantly, this is not some kind of news that proved Buddhism teachings wrong. Even when Christianity's claim on the formation of the earth and the Adam and Eve story has been found to be untrue by science, I am sure christians still send their children to science clases, don't they ?

Edited November 23, 2010 by healthcaretaker

[healthcaretaker]

This is the truth of Thailand.

You mean the efficiency of the police or the freedom of the press in this matter ?

[christiaan]

Part of the truth in this matter, is not that there are abortions in this part of the world. It is done about everywhere and about anywhere and it probably has been done al along history to some extend.

The most impressing is also not the fact that those unborn children were found in a temple, the discovery overthere just showed how badly organised the care was for these unborn children all the way and this in itself shows how unrespectfull the care has been all the way from all 'levels' in Thai society.

There also could be some big discussion about wether and when an embryo is 'living' in its mother allthough we cannot deny the fact that when there is an embryo some astonishing mystery is taking place, but that is not exclusive for Thailand.

I would say the most astonishing of this event is that we can see this phenomenon, what we can see in the western world too, as it is in thailand now.

Becos there is not much religion anymore in the western world, at least not as seem to have been there before, there are more abortions accepted.

The amount of abortions in the western world is - probably - in line with the disappearance of religion(s) in the western world.

When someone tells me he or she would not like to become a father or mother, I could rather well estimate they would or would not have an unexpected child to be aborted.

People I know in my social environment just tell they will do so.

They also tell they will do when they have found out their unborn child has been diagnosed with some kind of special disease.

Subsequently they will in most cases, when they are adults in this experience, talk about it when it did happen.

In most cases they will not feel ashamed. However in many cases at least the woman is deeply touched by such an experience,

Becos it is such a well accepted part of medical and social thinking in many western cultures it is taken care of quite well.

All this doesnot tell that abortion in itself is right or wrong.

In Thailand one now probably have seen the prove that on one side there is this overwhelming 'Buddhist' outside of culture, the ' ochre coat of Thai culture ' while on the inside there is this 'modern individual attitude' rising with force.

People would probably tell, this could have been caused by western influence, but it is not.

This is the manifestation of a human development where we as humans everywhere in the world more and more loose the connection with a social (group)awareness to become more and more individual and at the same time enter a spiritual vacuum.

In the past people lived to some extend within the inner awareness of the group and the social context 'decided' how people had to behave and not to behave, how to think and not to think .

Now these contexts are fading away - a situation where the individuality is born out of the groupsoul - the challenge for the individual is not to expect to find the ethics and morality of behaviour outside but to go to look for it in the Self.

In the western world this brings people to look for spiritual inner experience and thats why western educated non-groupsoul people sometimes connect for short or longer period to Buddhism.

While just two days ago I had a conversation with a young native Thai who strongly expressed her rejection of Buddhism.

And she was not the first.

For this young Thai, Buddhism in Thailand as it is and has been in all of her life is the suppressor of her personal identity her personal energy , the not respected meaningless empty form in her life that added nothing to her life.

And this in fact shows what is shown by this event of the over 2000 unborn Thai children.

How many of these unborn children will there have been in the last 10 years in this pseudo religious country?

They tell Thailand is not as Buddists as it artificially cultural is showing.

This Buddhism in general is merely a social form without answers to the challenges of modern time, mainly being involved in maintaining itself in empty believes and powerstructures.

[MAJIC]

Disposing of foeteses is one thing,making Superstious Amulets and money from this trade is another.

What Confidence?

Edited November 23, 2010 by MAJIC

[phetaroi]

OP,

I don't consider myself a "true" Buddhist but I think(on the contrary) this incident gives me a stronger faith towards Buddhism.

1) Abortions happen everywhere, not just in Thailand but countries of other religions too.

2) This is not a sex scandal case cover-up like those involved in the church. Isn't there a big case that even the Pope has to make some statements ? Will Christians lose faith in their religion ?

3) The fact that they are hidden in a Buddhist temple showed to some extent that these people involved have some "merciful feelings" for the soul of the unborn.

4) Most importantly, this is not some kind of news that proved Buddhism teachings wrong. Even when Christianity's claim on the formation of the earth and the Adam and Eve story has been found to be untrue by science, I am sure christians still send their children to science clases, don't they ?

1. As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, my primary concern is not about abortion in this discussion. It is about the behavior and responsibility of members of the Sangha, an institution that has been described as one of the three pillars (as in the Triple Gem) of Buddhism.

2. Catholic Church attendance in way down in America, and many attribute the main factor as being the scandals involving the priesthood. To give you an example, in my small town when I was growing up there were two masses each weekday and five on Sundays. We had a full time priest and part-time priests who were on a sort of circuit. Now the same parish has no full time priest, no masses during the week, and only one mass on Sundays. When I asked some of my friends locally why the decline, they said the decline followed the scandals of the priesthood.

3. Huh? Wrapping the fetuses in a plastic bag and letting them rot shows "merciful feelings"?

4. Where have I mentioned Buddhist teachings? In fact, I said just the opposite previously when I indicated that the Triple Gem has three foundations -- Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. Well, I guess two out three ain't bad? My concern is this: Numerous times over recent events in Thailand, people have questioned why the Sangha has not provided moral leadership in the country. To be a true leader, people have to value your integrity. If monks cannot manage their own individual wats, how can anyone expect them to provide moral leadership?

[Brucenkhamen]

They tell Thailand is not as Buddists as it artificially cultural is showing.

This Buddhism in general is merely a social form without answers to the challenges of modern time, mainly being involved in maintaining itself in empty believes and powerstructures.

At last, you've worked it out!

It's the same with any religion, the more mainstream the more cultural it becomes the more diluted the more corrupt it becomes.

My guess is maybe about 5-10% are genuinely trying to practice the Buddhist path (Those 5-10% have produced some very impressive teachers though). This is probably about the same as are genuinely practising christianity in western countries, the difference is western societies have thrown off the cultural aspects more than has happened in Thailand.

[Brucenkhamen]

1. As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, my primary concern is not about abortion in this discussion. It is about the behavior and responsibility of members of the Sangha, an institution that has been described as one of the three pillars (as in the Triple Gem) of Buddhism.

Does it really surprise you considering the Thai Sangha is an institution mostly composed of short term monks or those ordained for cultural reasons?

There are monks who show the kind of impeccable standards that we'd expect, I've met many but they are the minority.

[christiaan]

They tell Thailand is not as Buddists as it artificially cultural is showing.

This Buddhism in general is merely a social form without answers to the challenges of modern time, mainly being involved in maintaining itself in empty believes and powerstructures.

At last, you've worked it out!

It's the same with any religion, the more mainstream the more cultural it becomes the more diluted the more corrupt it becomes.

My guess is maybe about 5-10% are genuinely trying to practice the Buddhist path (Those 5-10% have produced some very impressive teachers though). This is probably about the same as are genuinely practising christianity in western countries, the difference is western societies have thrown off the cultural aspects more than has happened in Thailand.

I worked this out in visiting Thailand 2 times.

I however liked to 'compare' this with the experiences/thoughts of other people.

This all is contributing to the facts that Thailand has strong aspects of dishonesty within their culture.

Compared in % to the practice of Christianity, where I see mainly modern conservation as I also mainly see in Buddhism, the percentage people with deep insight is very very low, as far as my experience goes.

I