Senators Express Doubt About Thai Charter

[webfact]

Senators express doubt about charter

By PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK

THE NATION

A number of senators expressed doubt yesterday about the proposed charter amendments, saying the intention and timing were not right. They believed more extensive changes were needed and greater participation by the public.

"I have neither confidence nor trust in the proposed amendments" by different parties, said appointed Senator Monthian Boonchan, adding that before the amendments proceed, people should first "let Thai society get a chance to reform its political maturity".

Paiboon Kamsiriphong, an elected senator from Pathum Thani province, said the proposed amendments were being made too soon and none was convincing. Paiboon called for greater public deliberation on constitution reform.

Senator Mongkol Srikamhaeng, from Chantaburi province, said he was suspicious about the timing and intention of various parties competing to have the charter amended to their liking. He warned that a charter-amendment debate during a precarious political situation like at present would be "a lighting rod for conflict".

As he spoke, hundreds of yellow-shirt People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) protesters gathered outside Parliament for a second day to oppose any amendment.

EXPRESSING DISBELIEF

Another senator, Somchart Phanuphat, from Nakhon Pathom province, expressed disbelief at the chaos surrounding the deliberation and asked why the government was so keen to make amendments.

"I am sympathetic, as some believe there is dark influential figure standing behind the prime minister. I don't believe that, however."

Earlier in the day, protests and counter-protests led to a brief suspension of the session. Doubt about the quorum of the joint-House session also led to a time-consuming headcount that lasted an hour and a half.

"There should be a major amendment, since we all know the charter is a by-product of a coup," said Charin Harn-suksa, a senator from Tak province.

A number of senators insisted that Parliament should have oversight power on international treaties and even purchase of arms by the Defence Ministry in order to make them corruption-free and accountable.

Apart from the amendment proposers, the day saw a number of senators and MPs lamenting the fate of the Thai constitution and the vicious cycle of military coups. Pheu Thai MP Surachai Khokjanya said: "We are the world's most wasteful country when it comes to how we use up our constitutions."

Senator Paiboon said it would be "easy" to prevent future coups.

"Once a coup-makers' an-nouncement is made, people from all walks should march towards the coup-makers' headquarters, perhaps 5 million-strong, and ask them: 'Why are you staging a coup?'" Paiboon said.

-- The Nation 2010-11-25

[webfact]

Pheu Thai threat to walk out of House

By THE NATION

The opposition Pheu Thai Party stood firm yesterday by its threat to walk out of Parliament in protest if the House rejects constitutional amendments proposed by a group headed by red-shirt leader Weng Tojirakarn.

Pheu Thai MPs will walk out of the meeting chamber immediately if the draft by Weng's group fails to pass a parliamentary vote, said MP Anudit Nakornthap, a member of the party's coordination committee.

He said Pheu Thai had made it clear it backed only that draft, allegedly supported by more than 70,000 voters.

The draft by the weng group is one of four being considered. Two others have been proposed by coalition parties and the fourth put forward by a group of 102 MPs.

The coalition's amendments seek separately to change Article 190 to specify what kinds of international agreements require parliamentary approval, and Articles 93 to 98, to change the voting system to single-MP constituencies, from multi-MP seats at present, as well as the number of MPs.

Anudit said Pheu Thai MPs would also make a "further gesture of opposition" by refusing to take part in a joint committee with the coalition, opposition and Senate to vet the drafts that pass first reading.

Chief opposition whip Witthaya Buranasiri, who is also a Pheu Thai MP, said yesterday that he believed many MPs and senators supported the draft favoured by Pheu Thai. However, he insisted there was no lobbying for the draft as the main proponent, Weng, was still detained in prison.

Meanwhile, Senator Rosana Tositrakul said yesterday that if the opposition walkout did take place, senators would decide whether the three remaining drafts would pass first reading. She said at least half of the two Houses - 310 MPs and Senators - would be required to achieve that. With 270 coalition MPs, support from at least 40 senators would be needed.

Rosana said she would not support any of the four drafts and believed at least 20 other senators would do the same. She said constitutional amendments that would lead to reconciliation should involve more than small issues proposed in the current drafts.

-- The Nation 2010-11-25

[whybother]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

[sungod]

Pheu Thai MPs will walk out of the meeting chamber immediately if the draft by Weng's group fails to pass a parliamentary vote, said MP Anudit Nakornthap, a member of the party's coordination committee.

Am I reading this part right? If Weng's draft doesn't pass a democratic vote process, then PT won't play? Mmmmmmmmm.............. Interesting democratic ideas they have.

[whybother]

Pheu Thai MPs will walk out of the meeting chamber immediately if the draft by Weng's group fails to pass a parliamentary vote, said MP Anudit Nakornthap, a member of the party's coordination committee.

Am I reading this part right? If Weng's draft doesn't pass a democratic vote process, then PT won't play? Mmmmmmmmm.............. Interesting democratic ideas they have.

True to form.

Their plan did get 70,000 votes. Out of 36 million voters, that's less than 0.2 %. Not sure if they realise that isn't a majority. But they've never really understood the meaning of majority.

[truethailand]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

I would have put my shirt on you being the first to reply on this Thread..

[whybother]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

I would have put my shirt on you being the first to reply on this Thread..

So what? I didn't think you would be the first to make a pointless comment, but you were high on the list.

Edited November 25, 2010 by whybother

[jayjay0]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

I would have put my shirt on you being the first to reply on this Thread..

So what? I didn't think you would be the first to make a pointless comment, but you were high on the list.

I don't understand it.

You make a post backed up by facts how the PTP is not in favor of Democracy and some one jumps on you for it.

I understand that in corruption there is some one putting money in there pocket and might not like the truth to be known.

Edited November 25, 2010 by jayjay0

[animatic]

PTP true to form, this is not a gesture of protest, this is

'I'm taking my ball and going home', even if you HAVE a ball of your own.

Democracy is the majority of the people making compromises in important issues,

with the majority voting it into law. And all with a stake debating and voting on it.

PTP just can't deal with being outvoted, and rather than say something constructive,

they end dialog and call it a 'democratic protest'. They lose 100% because they don't have

the attitude and skills to debate compromises and reach agreements with others.

Sorry PTP it's just childishness, and not the function of a proper Shadow Government opposition.

[hammered]

Wengs backdoor amnesty bill crashed. PTP turned all their peiople and the Thaksinista senators out in a three line whip approach. Impressive play but to no avail. No surprise. Guess the coup talk lessens now

[SergeiY]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

The list is long what democracy is ...

Democracy is also a little bit about election and not to avoid elections or boycott them.

[whybother]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

The list is long what democracy is ...

Democracy is also a little bit about election and not to avoid elections or boycott them.

Aung San Suu Kyi isn't very democratic, boycotting elections, is she?

Thaksin wasn't very democratic avoiding organising elections while he was care-taker PM, either.

As far a the Democrats go, they don't need to have elections until the end of next year. There is nothing undemocratic about a government running a full term.

Next ...

[hammered]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

The list is long what democracy is ...

Democracy is also a little bit about election and not to avoid elections or boycott them.

Aung San Suu Kyi isn't very democratic, boycotting elections, is she?

Thaksin wasn't very democratic avoiding organising elections while he was care-taker PM, either.

As far a the Democrats go, they don't need to have elections until the end of next year. There is nothing undemocratic about a government running a full term.

Next ...

On your last point. It is hard to find Thai people who actually want an election now. The more worrying thing is that it is getting easier to find a lot of people who have no time for any politician. That makes non-democratic moves a lot easier.

[truethailand]

Dont worry you are not alone some of your buddies are monotoring this thread

[Buchholz]

Wengs backdoor amnesty bill crashed. PTP turned all their people and the Thaksinista senators out in a three line whip approach. Impressive play but to no avail. No surprise. Guess the coup talk lessens now

Another amendment bill, another rejection...

Parliament Rejects Bhum Jai Thai Draft

Members of the joint Parliamentary meeting have rejected the draft submitted by 102 MPs, backed by the Bhum Jai Thai Party.

Votes are as follows: Accept 148, Reject 177, Abstain 212.

-- Tan Network 2010-11-25

[whybother]

Dont worry you are not alone some of your buddies are monotoring this thread

As are yours. But at least they aren't making pointless comments ... not valid, but at least not pointless.

[SomTumTiger]

The Dems didn't want any changes this way - and are letting the senators vote it down, thereby keeping their "face" in the coalition strong (Because it was the coalition partners who wanted the changes, no the Dems). Another hurdle played masterfully by the PM, which galls many in here, to no end.

[xminator]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

What democracy? Half of the Senators that have a vote for charter amendment votes are appointed. So the democrat led government have a 3/4th majority in the Senate by default.

So PT, and whatever parties support its coalition, would need more then 70% of the Representatives to pass an amendment bill. The Democrats - and its coalition members on the other hand only need 30%. So, democracy?

[whybother]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

What democracy? Half of the Senators that have a vote for charter amendment votes are appointed. So the democrat led government have a 3/4th majority in the Senate by default.

So PT, and whatever parties support its coalition, would need more then 70% of the Representatives to pass an amendment bill. The Democrats - and its coalition members on the other hand only need 30%. So, democracy?

Agreed. Appointing half the senators is not very democratic.

Whether the appointed senators are Democrat supporters or not though, I don't know. I don't think they would be supporting the Democrat amendments given the PAD stance.

And the PTP have shown their lack of understanding of democracy many times over the last couple of years.

Edited November 25, 2010 by whybother

[Buchholz]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

What democracy? Half of the Senators that have a vote for charter amendment votes are appointed. So the democrat led government have a 3/4th majority in the Senate by default.

So PT, and whatever parties support its coalition, would need more then 70% of the Representatives to pass an amendment bill. The Democrats - and its coalition members on the other hand only need 30%. So, democracy?

Could you explain your math whereby you have this notion that 3/4 of the Senate is Democrat?

Both elected and appointed Senators are non-partisan. The appointed Senators were chosen from a wide variety of backgrounds by the Senate Selection Committee. The Committee is established in Section 113, Part 3 and Chapter 6 of the Constitution. The Committee is composed of:

* President of the Constitutional Court

* Chairman of the Election Commission

* Chairman of the State Audit Commission

* A Judge in the Supreme Court of Justice holding office not lower in rank than Judge of the Supreme Court of Justice as entrusted by the general assembly of the Supreme Court of Justice.

* A Judge of the Supreme Administrative Court as entrusted by the general assembly of judges of the Supreme Administrative Court.

Are you saying that all members of the Committee are Democrats and all the Senators they selected are Democrat?

[Thai at Heart]

The other paper is reporting that the proposal for single MP constituencies passed.

Not sure exactly what this means for the future, but someone somewhere in a coloured shirt of some description is bound to be hacked off.

If so, it has to have some benefit for something.

[truethailand]

Dont worry you are not alone some of your buddies are monotoring this thread

As are yours. But at least they aren't making pointless comments ... not valid, but at least not pointless.

Thats debatable . Cats out the bag "The grass roots red shirts have some very valid issues" this statement is meaningless from a person who supports a government that has no intenetion of investing real money into poor areas. Are you supporting redistribution of wealth away from the few and into the grass roots of the NE. Didn't think so...

Edited November 26, 2010 by truethailand

[whybother]

Dont worry you are not alone some of your buddies are monotoring this thread

As are yours. But at least they aren't making pointless comments ... not valid, but at least not pointless.

Thats debatable . Cats out the bag

Oh. Now pointless and meaningless.

[phiphidon]

The other paper is reporting that the proposal for single MP constituencies passed.

Not sure exactly what this means for the future, but someone somewhere in a coloured shirt of some description is bound to be hacked off.

If so, it has to have some benefit for something.

In two previous party discussions the majority of Democrats had agreed that the multi - seat constituency was the way to go as they reasoned that with larger constituencies vote buying was harder to achieve due to the larger number of voters. The minor coalition parties disagreed. Come the day, the Democrats cater to the coalition parties and do a u-turn. Single seat consituencies win the day. Democrats happy as their power base is in Bangkok amongst middle class voters who supposedly are less susceptible to vote buying. Minor coalition parties happy as their power base is in the rural north where smaller constituencies are easier to manipulate. Job done.

[truethailand]

When will the PTP learn that democracy is about the majority. If they can't get the majority to support their amendments, then they don't survive. You don't just throw a hissy fit and refuse to take part. They're like children.

I liked the line about showing "a gesture of opposition". They are the opposition. They are working on being in opposition for a long time.

What democracy? Half of the Senators that have a vote for charter amendment votes are appointed. So the democrat led government have a 3/4th majority in the Senate by default.

So PT, and whatever parties support its coalition, would need more then 70% of the Representatives to pass an amendment bill. The Democrats - and its coalition members on the other hand only need 30%. So, democracy?

Could you explain your math whereby you have this notion that 3/4 of the Senate is Democrat?

Both elected and appointed Senators are non-partisan. The appointed Senators were chosen from a wide variety of backgrounds by the Senate Selection Committee. The Committee is established in Section 113, Part 3 and Chapter 6 of the Constitution. The Committee is composed of:

* President of the Constitutional Court

* Chairman of the Election Commission

* Chairman of the State Audit Commission

* A Judge in the Supreme Court of Justice holding office not lower in rank than Judge of the Supreme Court of Justice as entrusted by the general assembly of the Supreme Court of Justice.

* A Judge of the Supreme Administrative Court as entrusted by the general assembly of judges of the Supreme Administrative Court.

Are you saying that all members of the Committee are Democrats and all the Senators they selected are Democrat?

"Thaksin Shinawatra is generating 4 to 5 Billion Baht in profits a year, and has in total 400 Billion Baht worth of total wealth" I can think of a few thais who earn a great deal more than that every year

[truethailand]

Dont worry you are not alone some of your buddies are monotoring this thread

As are yours. But at least they aren't making pointless comments ... not valid, but at least not pointless.

Thats debatable . Cats out the bag

Oh. Now pointless and meaningless.

If you think so. For you to answer an anonymous comment within minutes of me posting (not the first time) suggests this is your 9-5 job. I mean to monitor political threads and promote one view over another. I am watching the watcher. Cant wait to see how quick you answer this one

[whybother]

If you think so. For you to answer an anonymous comment within minutes of me posting (not the first time) suggests this is your 9-5 job. I mean to monitor political threads and promote one view over another. I am watching the watcher. Cant wait to see how quick you answer this one

Within in a minute. Bad timing for you I guess. I just got back from lunch.

Is there something wrong with responding to a response to my post? Haven't you used the "Watch Topic"?

[truethailand]

Dont worry you are not alone some of your buddies are monotoring this thread

As are yours. But at least they aren't making pointless comments ... not valid, but at least not pointless.

Thats debatable . Cats out the bag

Oh. Now pointless and meaningless.

How come you only quoted the first bit of my last post. Are you advocating redistribution of wealth or just trying to appear neutral...cos its not working

[whybother]

How come you only quoted the first bit of my last post. Are you advocating redistribution of wealth or just trying to appear neutral...cos its not working

Because you added the last bit 3 minutes after I responded.

I'll go back to it and respond again if you like.

[truethailand]

If you think so. For you to answer an anonymous comment within minutes of me posting (not the first time) suggests this is your 9-5 job. I mean to monitor political threads and promote one view over another. I am watching the watcher. Cant wait to see how quick you answer this one

Within in a minute. Bad timing for you I guess. I just got back from lunch.

Is there something wrong with responding to a response to my post? Haven't you used the "Watch Topic"?

Watch Topic ummmmmmm I just love verbal sparring with you. It gives me the horn bcos I know what you are doing but dont worry you are not the only political watcher on here. Keep it coming I am just warming up boy lets make it entertaining for the neutrals