Annual Extensions Of Stay

[jfchandler]

I need to do some research/history checking on this subject, because I remember reading a news account of it here on ThaiVisa sometime in the past...

But from what I recall, basically, multiple regular Thai people lost a fair amount of money out of their bank accounts with some Thai bank due to criminal activity on the part of an employee or employees there, who basically were skimming from the accounts at one branch. Eventually, the employees were caught and arrested by the police.

Now, Thailand supposedly has its bank deposits insured up to certain limits, which some people might assume would be similar protection to the U.S. FDIC bank insurance. But in Thailand, apparently not.

From what I recall, according to the news account, whatever bank that was involved was taking the position that the theft was not covered under the bank deposits insurance protection because the loss wasn't due to the failure or bankruptcy of the bank itself...but rather... criminal action of individuals... yes, individuals who were employees of that bank.

Who knows how the matter was eventually resolved... But that news report was pretty disconcerting when I read it... And, it wasn't clear at all from the news report -- as they're often pretty poorly reported and written here -- just where the victims were supposed to turn for proper reimbursement.

I'd be interested if anyone has any more direct first-hand info on how Thai banks handle those kinds of situations...

PS - Money doesn't just disappear out of bank accounts... It has to be removed by someone... the account holder, someone associated with the account holder who's gained access to the account with or without the knowledge of the account holder, or some unknown third party such as crooked bank employee, someone who's skimmed the account holder's card info, etc.

[OJAS]

Been with Bangkok Bank for 26 or 27 years and never any missing funds. Plenty of other complaints but never about missing money. Perhaps, the OP made withdrawals whilst under the influence of alcohol and has no memory of it. It is not unheard of you know.

Better things to do with my time (and liver) than get sloshed on that cat's piss that masquerades as beer here in LOS, thank you very much! Now if I were still in living the UK heaven knows what would happen to my bank balance were I to stagger past an ATM with a dozen pints of Youngs Special sloshing around inside me.........

[Pib]

PS - Money doesn't just disappear out of bank accounts... It has to be removed by someone... the account holder, someone associated with the account holder who's gained access to the account with or without the knowledge of the account holder, or some unknown third party such as crooked bank employee, someone who's skimmed the account holder's card info, etc.

Big 10-4 on that. With all the electronic coding/tracking that is done on each financial transaction, a bank can pretty much track the transaction back to the ATM used, ATM/debit/credit card used, bank computer terminal used, bank employees involved in processing the transaction, passbook used, internet Ebanking logon used, etc...etc..etc...in any transaction. Tons of coding/tracking that we can't see or use as customers but definitely what the bank can see and use. And I expect there are some ways to cover tracks in some of the transactions. Now whether the bank ultimately determines the transaction to be a fraudulent or valid transaction is another story based on the evidence, bank policies, consumer protection laws, etc. And I don't think Thai consumer protection laws are as robust/consumer friendly as in western nations. My comments are not meant to imply the OP or any family members with access to the accounts were behind the missing amounts---not at all; I'm just commenting on what I think is fact. Cheers.

[OJAS]

Tons of coding/tracking that we can't see or use as customers but definitely what the bank can see and use. And I expect there are some ways to cover tracks in some of the transactions. Now whether the bank ultimately determines the transaction to be a fraudulent or valid transaction is another story based on the evidence, bank policies, consumer protection laws, etc.

Presumably, therefore, it would be a doddle for a dishonest bank employee to use this coding/tracking to cover their tracks in a way which any external fraudster could not. In such circumstances how could the bank ever conclude that a fraudulent transaction which had been perpetrated internally was anything other than valid? All potentially very worrying for bank account holders IMHO.

[jdinasia]

Tons of coding/tracking that we can't see or use as customers but definitely what the bank can see and use. And I expect there are some ways to cover tracks in some of the transactions. Now whether the bank ultimately determines the transaction to be a fraudulent or valid transaction is another story based on the evidence, bank policies, consumer protection laws, etc.

Presumably, therefore, it would be a doddle for a dishonest bank employee to use this coding/tracking to cover their tracks in a way which any external fraudster could not. In such circumstances how could the bank ever conclude that a fraudulent transaction which had been perpetrated internally was anything other than valid? All potentially very worrying for bank account holders IMHO.

IT security in Thai banks is pretty tight (it doesn't mean that attempts to defraud customers do not happen), most of the banks use outside vendors (foreign companies) to monitor transactions etc. It really isn't a very worrisome issue at all.

[jfchandler]

JD, I'm not a Thai banking insider, so I don't personally know what kinds of security measures Thai banks use...

However, I am a careful and voracious news reader... And when I repeatedly read news reports here on ThaiVisa and elsewhere about Thai banks having their employees skimming funds of customers accounts (usually Thais) and the fraud often having occurred for many months before the bank becomes aware (usually thru customer complaints, not their own internal monitoring), it sends a pretty strong signal that they're not doing as well as you suggest.

Add to that the fact and reality that farangs in Thailand face hurdles in seeking consumer rights protections from Thai banks, both because of weak consumer protection provisions here and the inability to access civil remedies. The result is a situation where the system as it exists gives little reason for farangs to feel at ease.

One hundred farangs might pop up and say, ohh...I've lived here for years and never been the victim of bank fraud. But in reality, that's simply more a result of the odds...fraud doesn't impact everyone, but just relatively few...rather than the banks having secure systems in place to prevent it.

[Pib]

Tons of coding/tracking that we can't see or use as customers but definitely what the bank can see and use. And I expect there are some ways to cover tracks in some of the transactions. Now whether the bank ultimately determines the transaction to be a fraudulent or valid transaction is another story based on the evidence, bank policies, consumer protection laws, etc.

Presumably, therefore, it would be a doddle for a dishonest bank employee to use this coding/tracking to cover their tracks in a way which any external fraudster could not. In such circumstances how could the bank ever conclude that a fraudulent transaction which had been perpetrated internally was anything other than valid? All potentially very worrying for bank account holders IMHO.

Possibly...it would all depend on what access priviliges a bank employee would have to different parts of the bank's data system and what double checks/confirmation by another employee(s) (probably a supervisor) would need to approve to allow the change. But it's my understand (hope) that even the history of any financial database change/addition/deletion/etc., related to a financial tranaction is kept on on file for X-years for situations such as missing funds. Now getting a bank to dig that deep into history files may be hard unless you can put some fear into the bank.

[Pib]

Another nice feature of USAA, depending on what kind of account status you have, is their relatively new ability to remote/online deposit checks, which can come in pretty handy round these parts...

Another top flight institution that has an even more accessible program for remote depositing checks in Pentagon Federal Credit Union, which kind of has the military community as its primary customer base but also is open to the general public by joining a non-profit association. PFCU regularly offers pretty much the best/highest FDIC insured CD rates to be found anywhere and is one of the largest credit unions in the country...

Both USAA and PFCU, as well as expat friendly Charles Schwab Bank, put BofA to shame for anyone living outside the U.S.

Today I used the USAA Deposit@Home feature where you scan-in the check using the Deposit@Home menu/module on USAA's internet banking system. Very easy, simple, free, and fast...the online module does all the interface with your scanner...the check was immediately accepted, deposited to my account, and funds made immediately available (no waiting period for it to clear). Gone are the days of occasionally getting that check in the mail and having mail it back to one of my States side banks for free cashing/deposit...hoping it don't get lost/delayed in the mail...watching my account balance to confirmed it arrived/cleared/etc. Banking from half away around the world just got a little easier.

[jdinasia]

JD, I'm not a Thai banking insider, so I don't personally know what kinds of security measures Thai banks use...

However, I am a careful and voracious news reader... And when I repeatedly read news reports here on ThaiVisa and elsewhere about Thai banks having their employees skimming funds of customers accounts (usually Thais) and the fraud often having occurred for many months before the bank becomes aware (usually thru customer complaints, not their own internal monitoring), it sends a pretty strong signal that they're not doing as well as you suggest.

Add to that the fact and reality that farangs in Thailand face hurdles in seeking consumer rights protections from Thai banks, both because of weak consumer protection provisions here and the inability to access civil remedies. The result is a situation where the system as it exists gives little reason for farangs to feel at ease.

One hundred farangs might pop up and say, ohh...I've lived here for years and never been the victim of bank fraud. But in reality, that's simply more a result of the odds...fraud doesn't impact everyone, but just relatively few...rather than the banks having secure systems in place to prevent it.

Ah, there is the clincher .... there are ways to steal and if you do it in small amounts over time the thief counts on the customer not noticing. When noticed it is a fairly fast and straight-forward process to tracking down the culprit. In Thailand the higher risk is in having your ATM card copied in a transaction swipe. Far harder to detect and it has less protection.

I am learning far too much about banking here but I have some good teachers. My partner is head of IT security for a bank and his sister is a branch manager of a different bank and I am involved with a local Thai CU. I know where the back-up data centers are ... who the biggest security vendors are etc. (They outsource to very significant international companies to reduce liability.) In my years here I have not had a problem with Thai banks but my foreign credit card/ATM (from Credit Union of Denver) has been copied. The CU in Denver noted charges on my card from Malaysia and killed it immediately (and sent me a new card immediately without being prompted.)

In Thailand I now only use ATM's attached to actual banks and only use my CC in stores that I trust. CC fraud is the largest issue in banking.

[jfchandler]

As an American, I'd be more worried about the safety of funds in my Thai bank account, than I would about anything relating to a U.S. issued credit card.

The consumer protection provisions, and fraud loss stop protections, for U.S. credit cards are very good. Such that VISA loudly can advertise their $0 fraud liability protection... but only for U.S. issued credit cards. Notably, VISA logo credit cards issued by banks outside the U.S. -- including Thailand -- don't carry that protection. That is, of course, because the U.S. federal credit card fraud protection law doesn't apply elsewhere....

On the other hand, with Thai banks, if you happen to be one of the unlucky (relatively) few who becomes a victim, good luck, because you'll need it.

[jfchandler]

Ah, there is the clincher .... there are ways to steal and if you do it in small amounts over time the thief counts on the customer not noticing. When noticed it is a fairly fast and straight-forward process to tracking down the culprit.

Ya...and... what of your supposedly great Thai bank security systems??? Your example above suggests the thief can get away with it until/if the customer happens to notice....

Funny, that's exactly the method I keep reading about over and over again... gradual skimming by an insider/insiders from multiple accounts over an extended period of time..

Maybe the Thai banks and their great international security contractors need to wake up and stop having too many drinks on their business lunches.

[JimGant]

Today I used the USAA Deposit@Home feature

Neat feature, although I've never used it (haven't seen a paper check in ages). However, you piqued my curiosity, so I went online to USAA for further info. What I found was that, yes, to use the Deposit@Home feature you have to be a full-up member, meaning having an honorable military connection (including having parents who are, or were, USAA members). However, anyone can open a USAA checking or savings account -- but will be missing the Deposit@Home feature (and maybe some others, but that's not exactly clear).

Anyway, click on this site to see eligibility:

USAA ELIGIBILITY

Even without all the bells and whistles, USAA would be worth looking into.

USAA isn't picky about having a foreign address either. However, something in the back of my mind says you had to originally establish membership with a US address. Now, that might be faulty memory.... Obviously, a new USAA expat member reading this can better explain.

[lopburi3]

You do not need a US address to set up account online.

[Pib]

I used my APO address if that made any difference. I also signed up for one of their credit cards when initially opening the checking/savings account. From reading the Deposit@Home eligibility requirements you just need to have a bank account with them, be qualified for some of their other financial/insurance products and have a USAA credit card or loan. When closely reading the different combo's that allow a person to qualify for the Deposit@Home it appears "having a USAA checking/saving account" (which means you probably qualify for some or more of their products whether you sign up for them or not) "and a USAA credit card" meets the minimum requirements...it did for me....USAA Account plus USAA Credit Card. The Deposit@Home didn't work for me during the first few days of the new account banking account; but when I checked it yesterday it was working for me...maybe USAA had finished verifying stuff about me...whatever they verify with new members after the initial setup. So, I pulled out the Tricare reimbursement check I had just got and used Deposit@Home to deposit it. Between some Tricare reimbursement checks and one other state govt agency check I get each year, I'll probably end up using this function 3 to 10 times a year...unless I get seriously sick, file a bunch of Tricare claims, and start receiving a bunch of Tricare reimbursement checks.

Speaking of Tricare reimbursement checks for those who may get them occasionally, don't forget that annual mammograms/pap smears, annual PSA test for men, annual flu shoots, and a few other preventive clinical services are now "fully" reimburseable...no cost share or deductible...Repeat, no cost share or deductible. Heck, due to the semi recent law change which Tricare only started advertising semi-recently, you can get fully reimbursed for several other preventive clinical services which occurred "since mid Oct 08"...just send them a letter identifying the previous claim(s) to get whatever additional reimbursement is due. We just got fully reimbursed for the wife's annual checkup mammogram in 2009, annual checkup mammogram for 2010, both of our 2010 flu shots, and some other preventive services (i.e., mainly yearly preventive maintenance on the body). Yeap, Deposit@Home comes in real handy to quickly cash these checks since Tricare don't yet use direct deposits for reimbursement to individuals.

[jdinasia]

Ah, there is the clincher .... there are ways to steal and if you do it in small amounts over time the thief counts on the customer not noticing. When noticed it is a fairly fast and straight-forward process to tracking down the culprit.

Ya...and... what of your supposedly great Thai bank security systems??? Your example above suggests the thief can get away with it until/if the customer happens to notice....

Funny, that's exactly the method I keep reading about over and over again... gradual skimming by an insider/insiders from multiple accounts over an extended period of time..

Maybe the Thai banks and their great international security contractors need to wake up and stop having too many drinks on their business lunches.

Great bank security? They DO get caught. The same as in the US/UK. They (Thai banks) use the same IT security as banks in the West. The same thing happens in the US and that is certain, I assume it happens in the UK. (The systems are set to try and protect the banking customer while not inconveniencing the banking customer too much. To get a theft through the CC system the amounts stay small and irregular and generally fit the pattern of the consumer. Computer algorithms work over time and can be beat.

How many times do you hear about "identity theft" and the damage it causes both people and the credit/banking sector in the West?

[jfchandler]

JD, you're right about bank fraud in the west, for sure... Though, as far as I know, there's no public way to compare the relative internal fraud rates that occur in one country's banking system vs. another.

I always hear about U.S. banks supposedly quietly making good fraud losses....but my impression is those are generally fraud losses that result from the actions of third parties...external fraud.... I don't remember much ever hearing about cases of internal (bank employee) fraud in U.S. banks....or cases where bank employees end up getting arrested the same as occurs here.

As long as it's third party theft, a U.S. bank probably can keep it quiet, not wanting to advertise or publicly admit holes in its security setup.... But if it was a case of internal theft and the individuals got caught, the bank would be unlikely to be able to keep quiet any resulting criminal arrest and prosecution. Hmmmm.

[jdinasia]

JD, you're right about bank fraud in the west, for sure... Though, as far as I know, there's no public way to compare the relative internal fraud rates that occur in one country's banking system vs. another.

I always hear about U.S. banks supposedly quietly making good fraud losses....but my impression is those are generally fraud losses that result from the actions of third parties...external fraud.... I don't remember much ever hearing about cases of internal (bank employee) fraud in U.S. banks....or cases where bank employees end up getting arrested the same as occurs here.

As long as it's third party theft, a U.S. bank probably can keep it quiet, not wanting to advertise or publicly admit holes in its security setup.... But if it was a case of internal theft and the individuals got caught, the bank would be unlikely to be able to keep quiet any resulting criminal arrest and prosecution. Hmmmm.

Actually, you have it about backwards there. The banks (in the West) make sure you hear about third party theft and identity theft but try to keep internal theft quieter (more liability issues.)

Ex-Bank Employee Charged with Fraud, ID Theft

Alabama Man Said to Have Stolen Customer's ID, FundsApril 29, 2010 - Linda McGlasson, Managing EditorSharIn a case of insider fraud, former Regions Bank employee was indicted in Birmingham, AL this week.

A federal grand jury heard an 11-county indictment against Wash Taylor Coleman Jr., a 33-year-old Birmingham resident. He is charged with mail fraud, bank fraud and aggravated identity theft.

http://www.bankinfos...php?art_id=2474

Former Bank Employees Are Charged In Data Heist

Police say the accused were responsible for a scheme in which they obtained customer data from Bank of America, Wachovia, Commerce Bancorp, and PNC Financial Services Group and sold it to law firms and debt-collection agencies.

May 23, 2005 06:00 PMSeven former employees of Bank of America, Wachovia, Commerce Bancorp, and PNC Financial Services Group have been arrested in connection with a scheme in which they allegedly obtained customer data, which was then sold to law firms and debt-collection agencies.

Account numbers and balances on 670,000 accounts were found on 13 computers seized from Orazio Lembo, the alleged mastermind, Hackensack, N.J., police said Monday. Lembo, who operates DRL Associates, an investigation firm that provides information for background checks, has been charged with multiple counts of illegally disclosing data from a database and one count of racketeering. He faces up to 130 years in prison if convicted.

http://www.informati...cleID=163700396

Former Bank Of America Employee Pleads Guilty to Misappropriating More than $29 Million

February 4, 2009 by admin

Filed under Breach Incidents, Financial Sector, Insider, Theft, U.S.

[/font] In this incident, the defendant was first charged with the crime on January 22nd and pled guilty yesterday. The following is a statement from the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of Florida:

R. Alexander Acosta, United States Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, and Michael K. Fithen, Special Agent in Charge, U.S. Secret Service, Miami Field Division, announced that defendant Ricardo Figueredo, a former employee of Bank of America, pled guilty today before U.S. District Judge Paul C. Huck to bank fraud arising from a scheme through which Figueredo misappropriated more than $29 million in funds from customer accounts. Sentencing has been scheduled for April 14, 2009 at 10:00 a.m. before Judge Huck.

http://www.databreaches.net/?p=1278

Report: US Bank

Reported By:

(Aurora Illinois )

US Bank puts consumers at risk of identity theft Ripoff Minneapolis Minnesota

...

You might regret it if you change your address as well.

US Bank

800 Nicollet Mall

Minneapolis Minnesota 55402

U.S.A.

Phone: 800-888-4700

Web Address:

Category:

Banks

Submitted:

Thursday, August 31, 2006

Last posting: Thursday, August 31, 2006

While trying to open a checking account with our local credit union, my husband learned that someone had opened a checking account with US Bank using his social security number but another name.

US Bank had closed the account due to account abuse and reported the debt to Chex Systems. Since our bank uses Chex Systems, we were denied our checking account.

http://www.ripoffrep...-risk-2q394.htm

Edited December 13, 2010 by jdinasia

[jdinasia]

Sorry about the screwed up quotes in that last post --- the TV database didn't like something .. I tried to correct it.

Anyways --- only the BIG cases of insider theft make the news in the US and they have done so for a long time. Banks in the US use many of the same security products as banks here do.

[JimGant]

When closely reading the different combo's that allow a person to qualify for the Deposit@Home it appears "having a USAA checking/saving account" (which means you probably qualify for some or more of their products whether you sign up for them or not) "and a USAA credit card" meets the minimum requirements.

Pib, I read that a little differently....

It now appears anyone can have a checking or savings account -- and a credit card -- with USAA. But only those with a military connection (as defined by USAA) can also have auto and property insurance. In an assbackwards fashion, USAA limits Deposit@home to "qualified" individuals, defined as those with (or eligible to have) either auto or property insurance. In other words, folks with a military connection. (And, yes, you do need either a checking or savings account. But this is a given, since the Deposit@Home feature makes no sense without one or the other.)

I guess this is just one more way USAA is de-emphasizing the military connection aspect. When they finally get to "Did you ever try on your daddy's combat boots," I'll know their requirements have gotten as hokey as most Credit Unions'.

You've got an APO box? Is that a perq of being a military retiree?

[OJAS]

Sorry about the screwed up quotes in that last post --- the TV database didn't like something .. I tried to correct it.

Anyways --- only the BIG cases of insider theft make the news in the US and they have done so for a long time. Banks in the US use many of the same security products as banks here do.

Looks like the UK may not be immune either – see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/norfolk/8375023.stm

Worker arrested over bank fraud

A Barclays Bank worker in Norfolk has been arrested as part of a fraud investigation.

In a statement, Norfolk Police said a member of staff at the Attleborough branch had been arrested by officers and bailed.

Police said two other people had also been arrested in connection with the continuing investigation. Both have been bailed pending further inquiries.

Police have not yet revealed details of the fraud allegations.

A Barclays spokesman said: "Barclays spends a great deal of time and money protecting the interests of our customers and ourselves against the actions of would-be fraudsters.

"We have a zero-tolerance policy towards staff fraud.

"Where any employee involvement is suspected, individuals will be suspended, investigated and where there is evidence of misconduct dismissed."