BTS Hopes Recent Bangkok Skytrain's Silom Line Problems Now Resolved

[webfact]

BTS hopes recent Silom line problems now resolved

By JEERAWAN PRASOMSAP,

WATCHARAPONG THONGRUNG,

WANNAPA KHAOPA

THE NATION

After receiving complaints from passengers about the irregular operation of the Skytrain's Silom line over the past few weeks, Bangkok Mass Transit System yesterday explained why the public had been inconvenienced and how it had tackled the problem.

BTS chief operating officer Surapong Laoha-unya told a press conference that trains had been unable to run regularly because false signals had interfered with their radio-based system, causing the sensitive safety system to brake automatically. The error occurred after BTS had changed the rolling stock's signalling system on both three- and four-carriage trains from Siemens to the Bombardier system, he said.

He said BTS had begun operating the first two four-car trains using the new system in late October, and problems had started to occur in the middle of November.

There were a host of incidents that caused inconvenience to a great number of passengers, with several trains stopping due to the automatic safety system coming into play during the morning and evening rush hours. One such incident in the evening halted operations for two hours, Surapong said. He stressed that when BTS had conducted a trial run using the Bombardier system at night, prior to its use with passenger-laden trains, no problems had been found.

Anat Arbhabhirama, a BTS director, said a foreign engineer with Bombardier system expertise found that a train with three carriages sent false signals to other trains running on the Silom line after the first two four-car trains had run on the tracks. As a result, BTS has changed the train's signalling device and improved its software so as to reduce the likelihood of more false signals.

"After solving the problem, the two four-car trains resumed operation on December 5, but we have not yet let them run during rush hours. So far, no problems have been reported. If they continue to work properly, next week we will let them run during rush hours," said Surapong.

"We do apologise for the inconvenience. We and our partner, Bombardier Transportation Signal (Thailand), worked to solve the problem around the clock," he added.

The new signalling system will also be implemented on BTS trains servicing the Sukhumvit line. They are currently equipped with the Siemens system, but BTS will soon change to the Bombardier system.

Surapong expects to start operating the new system on the Sukhumvit line next March.

Anat said the change would lead to increased train frequency. "Each train runs on the Sukhumvit line every 2.33 minutes now during the rush hour, but with the new system they will be able to run every two minutes."

BTS chairman Keeree Kanjanapas said the Bombardier system could be used with the rolling stock of any company, whereas the Siemens system could be only used on trains manufactured by that company.

-- The Nation 2010-12-09

[bkkjames]

4 car trains purchased to alleviate the rush madness but are unreliable during this time. Nice to know though that we won't have a problem getting a seat at Sunday morning at 9am.

[slapout]

Siemans system could only be used on trains manufactured by them, is probably a good indication of why they work. Another brainstorm to mix different manufacturers for what purpose? We probably know the answer to that question and doubt that monetary saving to the government, public convenience, etc entered into it. Its encouraging that they have hope it will now work properly.sssshhhhhh

Just hope they do not start monkeying with the autopilot system on their commercial aircraft.

[whybother]

Siemans system could only be used on trains manufactured by them, is probably a good indication of why they work. Another brainstorm to mix different manufacturers for what purpose? We probably know the answer to that question and doubt that monetary saving to the government, public convenience, etc entered into it. Its encouraging that they have hope it will now work properly.sssshhhhhh

Just hope they do not start monkeying with the autopilot system on their commercial aircraft.

So just because the Siemens systems only work on Siemens trains, the BTS should just continue to buy Siemens trains, instead of putting in a system that works on any train.

All new electronic and computer systems go through teething problems. They are just ironing out these problems. Now they are back in testing phase, and rather than put the 4 carriage trains back in peak hour, they are FIRST testing them outside peak hour. When they have proved themselves there, they will test them again during peak hour. This should ensure that passengers are not inconvenienced further.

[grantbkk]

I ride the Silom trains several days a week and have been caught in some the most recent delays. The press release from the BTS high command is just another list of excuses (bs) foisted on the masses that are simply surf to the hi-so that make money off the backs of the poor and through corruption.

Years of planning went into the present system and I guess it runs pretty good for one built through bribes and theft in a developing country. Check out the single track station at Saphan Taksin! The money for extensions of both lines disappeared along with the safety equipment that delayed opening stations to this day. We ride at our own risk using each other for airbags if and when we have the big accident. However it will not be an accident, it will be neligence, blamed on the previous administration.

Those of us who can feel the computer kicking out and the driver taking the "wheel" know what a gamble we're facing. Watching the people, especially the larger tourists jerking around and falling on the smaller Thais, is no laughing matter.

Next up: A Bt30 million Bangkok Eye. Figure corruption conservatively at about 30% for the most expensive Ferris Wheel in the history of mankind.

[Searat7]

Siemans system could only be used on trains manufactured by them, is probably a good indication of why they work. Another brainstorm to mix different manufacturers for what purpose? We probably know the answer to that question and doubt that monetary saving to the government, public convenience, etc entered into it. Its encouraging that they have hope it will now work properly.sssshhhhhh

Just hope they do not start monkeying with the autopilot system on their commercial aircraft.

So just because the Siemens systems only work on Siemens trains, the BTS should just continue to buy Siemens trains, instead of putting in a system that works on any train.

All new electronic and computer systems go through teething problems. They are just ironing out these problems. Now they are back in testing phase, and rather than put the 4 carriage trains back in peak hour, they are FIRST testing them outside peak hour. When they have proved themselves there, they will test them again during peak hour. This should ensure that passengers are not inconvenienced further.

I understand that the new trains were manufactured in China- probably at a considerable cost savings. I wonder though if Siemens could still manufacture additional cars for the existing trains. Expanding the 3 car trains to 4 cars would boost capacity without purchasing many new train sets.

[whybother]

I understand that the new trains were manufactured in China- probably at a considerable cost savings. I wonder though if Siemens could still manufacture additional cars for the existing trains. Expanding the 3 car trains to 4 cars would boost capacity without purchasing many new train sets.

Yes. I've often wondered that. I don't think I have seen anywhere where they link old and new carriages together though. Not that I have been to enough places to make a general statement like that.

[SamritT]

Why not buy the Chinese system. It is even cheaper. Trying to save a few Bahts?

[rubl]

I understand that the new trains were manufactured in China- probably at a considerable cost savings. I wonder though if Siemens could still manufacture additional cars for the existing trains. Expanding the 3 car trains to 4 cars would boost capacity without purchasing many new train sets.

Yes. I've often wondered that. I don't think I have seen anywhere where they link old and new carriages together though. Not that I have been to enough places to make a general statement like that.

The new four-carriage trains will be used exclusively on the Silom line. The Sukhumvit line gets the trains used on the Silom line before. New carriages are being ordered to increase the Suk. line trains to four carriages. This may happen around the time the Suk. line extention to Baring is opened August 12th, 2011.

[whybother]

I understand that the new trains were manufactured in China- probably at a considerable cost savings. I wonder though if Siemens could still manufacture additional cars for the existing trains. Expanding the 3 car trains to 4 cars would boost capacity without purchasing many new train sets.

Yes. I've often wondered that. I don't think I have seen anywhere where they link old and new carriages together though. Not that I have been to enough places to make a general statement like that.

The new four-carriage trains will be used exclusively on the Silom line. The Sukhumvit line gets the trains used on the Silom line before. New carriages are being ordered to increase the Suk. line trains to four carriages. This may happen around the time the Suk. line extention to Baring is opened August 12th, 2011.

Oh ... I haven't seen anything about the Suk lines being increased to 4 carriages.

[rubl]

I understand that the new trains were manufactured in China- probably at a considerable cost savings. I wonder though if Siemens could still manufacture additional cars for the existing trains. Expanding the 3 car trains to 4 cars would boost capacity without purchasing many new train sets.

Yes. I've often wondered that. I don't think I have seen anywhere where they link old and new carriages together though. Not that I have been to enough places to make a general statement like that.

The new four-carriage trains will be used exclusively on the Silom line. The Sukhumvit line gets the trains used on the Silom line before. New carriages are being ordered to increase the Suk. line trains to four carriages. This may happen around the time the Suk. line extention to Baring is opened August 12th, 2011.

Oh ... I haven't seen anything about the Suk lines being increased to 4 carriages.

http://www.bts.co.th/en/news/news_detail.asp?id=201

[whybother]

http://www.bts.co.th...tail.asp?id=201

Cool ... just need to get the MRT to extend their trains to 4 carriages.

[Brunel]

Quote: "As a result, BTS has changed the train's signalling device and improved its software so as to reduce the likelihood of more false signals." "After solving the problem ...."

Avoiding pedantics in mention of one train [train's], if BTS has simply reduced the likelihood of more false signals, then they haven't solved the problem ....

[chuang]

Why not buy the Chinese system. It is even cheaper. Trying to save a few Bahts?

Because the other party paid more bribes..

[rubl]

http://www.bts.co.th...tail.asp?id=201

Cool ... just need to get the MRT to extend their trains to 4 carriages.

May take a few more years if MRT follows the same timeframe as BTS

The extra trains we will soon have on the BTS Suk. line will come in handy. I have the impression that with the opening of the SRT Airport Link it is really more crowded in morning/evening.

[GarryP]

This morning the time between trains on the Silom line at around 9:00 a.m. was much more than 5 minutes so to say that operations are back to normal is not correct.

[Bagwan]

Quote: "As a result, BTS has changed the train's signalling device and improved its software so as to reduce the likelihood of more false signals." "After solving the problem ...."

Avoiding pedantics in mention of one train [train's], if BTS has simply reduced the likelihood of more false signals, then they haven't solved the problem ....

Is that you Isambard? We all thought you were dead years ago. 

Isambard Kingdom Brunel, who's monument is, and still is the GWR - God's Wonderful Railway.

[Brunel]

Quote: "As a result, BTS has changed the train's signalling device and improved its software so as to reduce the likelihood of more false signals." "After solving the problem ...."

Avoiding pedantics in mention of one train [train's], if BTS has simply reduced the likelihood of more false signals, then they haven't solved the problem ....

Is that you Isambard? We all thought you were dead years ago.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel, who's monument is, and still is the GWR - God's Wonderful Railway.

And can still show them a thing or two ... obviously

[slapout]

Siemans system could only be used on trains manufactured by them, is probably a good indication of why they work. Another brainstorm to mix different manufacturers for what purpose? We probably know the answer to that question and doubt that monetary saving to the government, public convenience, etc entered into it. Its encouraging that they have hope it will now work properly.sssshhhhhh

Just hope they do not start monkeying with the autopilot system on their commercial aircraft.

So just because the Siemens systems only work on Siemens trains, the BTS should just continue to buy Siemens trains, instead of putting in a system that works on any train.

All new electronic and computer systems go through teething problems. They are just ironing out these problems. Now they are back in testing phase, and rather than put the 4 carriage trains back in peak hour, they are FIRST testing them outside peak hour. When they have proved themselves there, they will test them again during peak hour. This should ensure that passengers are not inconvenienced further.

I read the system the BTS purchased is not working, thus the problem, further more the hope that the problem is resolved, which appears doubtful as per some of the posts is not the way to operate a public transport system. A wing, a prayer and a hope is not my idea of preplanned final shakedown of any system, whether mechanical, electrial or software.

[asiawatcher]

Siemens are well tried and proven. To interfere with third party 'add ons' you can bet it won;t be long before there is an accident or even worse, a disaster. Stupid is as stupid does! So who in the system got the kick backs to work with Bombadier? Even then name of the company sounds disastrous!

[antsrule]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2010/09/stuxnet_worm

Check this worm out. It affects Siemens control systems.

It is an interesting story how Bombardier came into being. A man (Monsieur Bombardier) lost his son due to illness because they could not get through the deep snow to reach the hospital  (rural Quebec). He subsequently invented the snowmobile. They now manufacture regional passenger aircraft, light rail etc. This does not prove anything, it is simply an interesting story.

Bombardier's software apparently delivers tighter control allowing spacing of the trains closer together and BTS needs to do something to improve service. Although I can't say what the answer is, I can say this, the Stuxnet worm is a major potential disaster for all of us. Whether it is part of BTS thinking or not, I also cannot say. 

Hey, Asiawatcher, If you want to quit using products because of the name, I would suggest you could start by telling people not to drink anymore coke. In that case you would be doing us all a favor.

[antsrule]

http://www.economist.com/

blogs/babbage/2010/09/stuxnet_worm

I broke the URL in 2. Hopefully you will see it all this time.

[whybother]

http://www.economist.com/

blogs/babbage/2010/09/stuxnet_worm

I broke the URL in 2. Hopefully you will see it all this time.

You don't need to "see" it. It's still there in full in the background. Just click on it (the original) and you will see that it goes through to the article.

[petedk]

Siemans system could only be used on trains manufactured by them, is probably a good indication of why they work. Another brainstorm to mix different manufacturers for what purpose? We probably know the answer to that question and doubt that monetary saving to the government, public convenience, etc entered into it. Its encouraging that they have hope it will now work properly.sssshhhhhh

Just hope they do not start monkeying with the autopilot system on their commercial aircraft.

So just because the Siemens systems only work on Siemens trains, the BTS should just continue to buy Siemens trains, instead of putting in a system that works on any train.

All new electronic and computer systems go through teething problems. They are just ironing out these problems. Now they are back in testing phase, and rather than put the 4 carriage trains back in peak hour, they are FIRST testing them outside peak hour. When they have proved themselves there, they will test them again during peak hour. This should ensure that passengers are not inconvenienced further.

I understand that the new trains were manufactured in China- probably at a considerable cost savings. I wonder though if Siemens could still manufacture additional cars for the existing trains. Expanding the 3 car trains to 4 cars would boost capacity without purchasing many new train sets.

I just read in another newspaper either yesterday or today about all the pirated goods that are made in China and the list said nearly everything is pirated from CD's to trains.

Let's hope they haven't bought pirated trains!

[tombkk]

This morning the time between trains on the Silom line at around 9:00 a.m. was much more than 5 minutes so to say that operations are back to normal is not correct.

I don't know whether BTS ever published a time table, but I was told a couple of years ago that the frequency between trains is 2-3 minutes during peak hours, and 5-6 minutes outside of peak. That's a lot more often than in some other cities around the globe.

9am is not peak any more. How much is the "much more than 5 minutes" you experienced?

[GarryP]

This morning the time between trains on the Silom line at around 9:00 a.m. was much more than 5 minutes so to say that operations are back to normal is not correct.

I don't know whether BTS ever published a time table, but I was told a couple of years ago that the frequency between trains is 2-3 minutes during peak hours, and 5-6 minutes outside of peak. That's a lot more often than in some other cities around the globe.

9am is not peak any more. How much is the "much more than 5 minutes" you experienced?

I usually take the train at that time, Mon-Fri and it was definitely longer than usual between trains, if you go back a month or so before all the breakdowns started happening.

[tombkk]

This morning the time between trains on the Silom line at around 9:00 a.m. was much more than 5 minutes so to say that operations are back to normal is not correct.

I don't know whether BTS ever published a time table, but I was told a couple of years ago that the frequency between trains is 2-3 minutes during peak hours, and 5-6 minutes outside of peak. That's a lot more often than in some other cities around the globe.

9am is not peak any more. How much is the "much more than 5 minutes" you experienced?

I usually take the train at that time, Mon-Fri and it was definitely longer than usual between trains, if you go back a month or so before all the breakdowns started happening.

OK, so I understand a delay happened and the "level of service" is not at 100%. I am not aware of any city in which it is, but I am curious as to what level you expect.

[bifftastic]

Bombardier's software apparently delivers tighter control allowing spacing of the trains closer together

That's the theory, in practice it often fails. The same system is used on the railway I work on in London. Once the spacing gets too tight the system can't handle it and all the trains stop. Then it's re-booted and works for a while, then fails again.

The answer that is often repeated is 'well, it works on the simulator'. Software 'patches' are added and the end result is a system that works most of the time.

As with any kind of upgrade or introduction of new software, it takes time to get it right. In the meantime passengers promised improvements get disruption instead.

We had months of peak-time failures requiring a complete re-boot of the whole system when new upgrades were introduced. No train movements at all for anything up to 45 minutes at a time. Chaos! After much tweaking, it now just about copes with the evening peak with a 2 minute service in and out of one of the busiest stations in London, took a long time to sort out.

I hope you've all got plenty of patience, I think you'll need it

[Humphrey Bear]

http://www.economist.com/

blogs/babbage/2010/09/stuxnet_worm

I broke the URL in 2. Hopefully you will see it all this time.

Stuxnet is a red herring in this instance.

Stuxnet is liable to attack Siemens software, yes, but it is not seeking to disrupt train schedules, to the best of current knowledge.

It seems to be targetting the centrifuges of the Iranian enrichment plant as a sole target. Current thinking has also ruled out Israel/Mossad as the originator of the worm - believing now that it is a joint venture by components of the American/German/Russian governments. Seems to be back to James Bond, but it takes this level of inside knowledge to be able to target so accurately.

Bombadier is a 'universal' system that can be used with any manufacturer's trains, but by making it universal one also makes it too general to take advantage of the sophisticated developments of any one manufacturer. If BTS stick with Siemens and Siemens systems now and in the future they will have a better system - but maybe more expensive.

[GarryP]

This morning the time between trains on the Silom line at around 9:00 a.m. was much more than 5 minutes so to say that operations are back to normal is not correct.

I don't know whether BTS ever published a time table, but I was told a couple of years ago that the frequency between trains is 2-3 minutes during peak hours, and 5-6 minutes outside of peak. That's a lot more often than in some other cities around the globe.

9am is not peak any more. How much is the "much more than 5 minutes" you experienced?

I usually take the train at that time, Mon-Fri and it was definitely longer than usual between trains, if you go back a month or so before all the breakdowns started happening.

OK, so I understand a delay happened and the "level of service" is not at 100%. I am not aware of any city in which it is, but I am curious as to what level you expect.

All I want is that it gets back to normal. The level they were already providing a few months ago. I am not asking for anything special, just something they proved they could provide in the past.