Purchasing Land And Leasing

[april81]

Hi, I'm from switzerland, i want to buy a land, can i do a lease with my thai gf, then in 1 or 2 years build a house and put it on my name ? Is it safe ? Thanks guys

[caf]

The land would need to be in a Thai's name but the house can be in yours. Just make sure the building permit is in your name that all records of cash payment are from you and that these facts are noted on the title deed at the land office

the way that is done is with a superficie which notes that the house is yours and that you have a 30 or lifetime lease on the land from your girlfriend

the land office will assist, costs about 100 baht. dont bother with or trust lawyers they will push you to do a usufruct

pm me if you want

land bought before marriage is treated as a gift to the wife and is never common property.

[InterestedObserver]

1. With rare exceptions, foreigners cannot own land in Thailand.

2. Your Thai GF can own all the land you can afford to put in her name.

3. Yes, you can lease land from your GF for a maximum of 30 years at a time.

4. Yes, you can get a building permit for a house on leased land.

5. Is it safe, well that depends on your definition of safe.

[april81]

1. With rare exceptions, foreigners cannot own land in Thailand.

2. Your Thai GF can own all the land you can afford to put in her name.

3. Yes, you can lease land from your GF for a maximum of 30 years at a time.

4. Yes, you can get a building permit for a house on leased land.

5. Is it safe, well that depends on your definition of safe.

Thanks for your answer, i mean is it risky

[caf]

1. With rare exceptions, foreigners cannot own land in Thailand.

2. Your Thai GF can own all the land you can afford to put in her name.

3. Yes, you can lease land from your GF for a maximum of 30 years at a time.

4. Yes, you can get a building permit for a house on leased land.

5. Is it safe, well that depends on your definition of safe.

Thanks for your answer, i mean is it risky

1 and 2 is correct

3 - can be 30 years or life. Extending by a further 30 years has never been tested in a Thai court and would need all parties to agree anyway

If you want to post my pm to you on the forum I have no objections

You may find that you are advised that certain things you can not do or that you are steered to a usufruct

Land offices can often be more helpful than lawyers who may not be up to speed or have a conflict of interests if you know what i mean

i have seen a legal document in thai and english where the english is not a full and accurate translation of the thai; and i have seen a set of accounts with the thai wording that the auditors have not received full information from the directors but no mention of that qualified report in the english translation. take care

[olsen]

If you and your girlfriend live together like a couple, well then you're officially not allowed to lease the land from her....it happened to one of my friends....

[caf]

If you and your girlfriend live together like a couple, well then you're officially not allowed to lease the land from her....it happened to one of my friends....

That is not necessarily correct. I don't know how your friend's documentaion was set up, but it can be done. I have done it.

As I said in my post

"the way that is done is with a superficie which notes that the house is yours and that you have a 30 or lifetime lease on the land from your girlfriend"

[MikeyIdea]

If you and your girlfriend live together like a couple, well then you're officially not allowed to lease the land from her....it happened to one of my friends....

I have heard the same from a Thai friend of mine at work, in a more broader perspective. She claimed that for Thai couples who had a Thai cermony and lived together as married for a long time, then it is now possible to force the same rights as if marriage was registered (i.e., half of assets bought during the time together etc). I have no evidence that this is true and hope that this type of "development" is not actually.

[caf]

If you and your girlfriend live together like a couple, well then you're officially not allowed to lease the land from her....it happened to one of my friends....

I have heard the same from a Thai friend of mine at work, in a more broader perspective. She claimed that for Thai couples who had a Thai cermony and lived together as married for a long time, then it is now possible to force the same rights as if marriage was registered (i.e., half of assets bought during the time together etc). I have no evidence that this is true and hope that this type of "development" is not actually.

"She claimed that for Thai couples who had a Thai cermony and lived together as married for a long time, then it is now possible to force the same rights as if marriage was registered"

Not true. Wonder why she said that

[MikeyIdea]

If you and your girlfriend live together like a couple, well then you're officially not allowed to lease the land from her....it happened to one of my friends....

I have heard the same from a Thai friend of mine at work, in a more broader perspective. She claimed that for Thai couples who had a Thai cermony and lived together as married for a long time, then it is now possible to force the same rights as if marriage was registered (i.e., half of assets bought during the time together etc). I have no evidence that this is true and hope that this type of "development" is not actually.

"She claimed that for Thai couples who had a Thai cermony and lived together as married for a long time, then it is now possible to force the same rights as if marriage was registered"

Not true. Wonder why she said that

I hope that it is not correct but it would not surprise me if it is coming or is starting to come. Northern Europe has been like that for a long time

[InterestedObserver]

1. With rare exceptions, foreigners cannot own land in Thailand.

2. Your Thai GF can own all the land you can afford to put in her name.

3. Yes, you can lease land from your GF for a maximum of 30 years at a time.

4. Yes, you can get a building permit for a house on leased land.

5. Is it safe, well that depends on your definition of safe.

Thanks for your answer, i mean is it risky

1 and 2 is correct

3 - can be 30 years or life. Extending by a further 30 years has never been tested in a Thai court and would need all parties to agree anyway

<snip>

A lease can only be for a maximum of 30 years at a time, there is no "for life" option. See section 540 of the Civil and Commercial Code. The "for life" option is available with a usufruct or superficies, which are entirely different types of land rights..

[caf]

1. With rare exceptions, foreigners cannot own land in Thailand.

2. Your Thai GF can own all the land you can afford to put in her name.

3. Yes, you can lease land from your GF for a maximum of 30 years at a time.

4. Yes, you can get a building permit for a house on leased land.

5. Is it safe, well that depends on your definition of safe.

Thanks for your answer, i mean is it risky

1 and 2 is correct

3 - can be 30 years or life. Extending by a further 30 years has never been tested in a Thai court and would need all parties to agree anyway

<snip>

A lease can only be for a maximum of 30 years at a time, there is no "for life" option. See section 540 of the Civil and Commercial Code. The "for life" option is available with a usufruct or superficies, which are entirely different types of land rights..

i made it clear i was talking of 30 or life via a superficie

land rights are different, you are correct. in an ordinary lease and usufruct the rights can not be given to your heirs

[Canada]

The land would need to be in a Thai's name but the house can be in yours. Just make sure the building permit is in your name that all records of cash payment are from you and that these facts are noted on the title deed at the land office

the way that is done is with a superficie which notes that the house is yours and that you have a 30 or lifetime lease on the land from your girlfriend

the land office will assist, costs about 100 baht. dont bother with or trust lawyers they will push you to do a usufruct

pm me if you want

land bought before marriage is treated as a gift to the wife and is never common property.

I would have to disagree with your final statement. That is not the information that I have received. In fact, if you do a contract with your wife for "superficies" say, that can be voided by your wife. Whereas a contract with other than your wife (gf), cannot. In reality, all land bought is basically a gift to your wife. You sign a declaration when you buy the land that clearly states that the land is being bought with her money and that the land is private property, not common property. The way around this document would be to stay well clear from the land office and the sellers until the transfer is done. Then go later and register your superficies or usufruct. If the land ofice knows there is a foreigner involved, you will need to sign this declaration.

Cheers

[caf]

The land would need to be in a Thai's name but the house can be in yours. Just make sure the building permit is in your name that all records of cash payment are from you and that these facts are noted on the title deed at the land office

the way that is done is with a superficie which notes that the house is yours and that you have a 30 or lifetime lease on the land from your girlfriend

the land office will assist, costs about 100 baht. dont bother with or trust lawyers they will push you to do a usufruct

pm me if you want

land bought before marriage is treated as a gift to the wife and is never common property.

I would have to disagree with your final statement. That is not the information that I have received. In fact, if you do a contract with your wife for "superficies" say, that can be voided by your wife. Whereas a contract with other than your wife (gf), cannot. In reality, all land bought is basically a gift to your wife. You sign a declaration when you buy the land that clearly states that the land is being bought with her money and that the land is private property, not common property. The way around this document would be to stay well clear from the land office and the sellers until the transfer is done. Then go later and register your superficies or usufruct. If the land ofice knows there is a foreigner involved, you will need to sign this declaration.

Cheers

Thanks for your comments. I might have phrased my point better, I think.

The superficies contract was signed in the land office before marriage. ( You are absolutely right about the implications of voiding) I was not asked to sign any document making it common property - maybe an oversight but too late now! If pressed I would have to have signed I suppose but a court may ( i agree unlikely) take the view that the superficies allowing the inheritance of assets to a third party takes precednce. I would argue ( but agree I may not win) that I signed the superficies first.

It's good to have a sensible discussion. I sometimes tire of the " Yes I am right" "No you are wrong" types of discussions which conveniently relegate facts to a minor position in a debate.

caf

[rickthailand]

The land would need to be in a Thai's name but the house can be in yours. Just make sure the building permit is in your name that all records of cash payment are from you and that these facts are noted on the title deed at the land office

the way that is done is with a superficie which notes that the house is yours and that you have a 30 or lifetime lease on the land from your girlfriend

the land office will assist, costs about 100 baht. dont bother with or trust lawyers they will push you to do a usufruct

pm me if you want

land bought before marriage is treated as a gift to the wife and is never common property.

I would have to disagree with your final statement. That is not the information that I have received. In fact, if you do a contract with your wife for "superficies" say, that can be voided by your wife. Whereas a contract with other than your wife (gf), cannot. In reality, all land bought is basically a gift to your wife. You sign a declaration when you buy the land that clearly states that the land is being bought with her money and that the land is private property, not common property. The way around this document would be to stay well clear from the land office and the sellers until the transfer is done. Then go later and register your superficies or usufruct. If the land ofice knows there is a foreigner involved, you will need to sign this declaration.

Cheers

i thought the point of the usurfruct was to make sure the westerner has some safety net so registering it after you bought it in your wife gf name seem to

take the safety of your wife gf taking your land from you away

rick

[InterestedObserver]

Agreements (contracts) concluded between husband and wife during a marriage may be voided by either party. See section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code. That is why some land offices will not allow a usufruct or superficies agreement between spouses to be registered. There is no safety in making a legal agreement with your wife!

[Canada]

not quite understanding you there Rick.....actually a usufruct or superficies was not designed for foreigners. It just so happens that it is available to us whereas actual land ownership is not.

From all the reading,and research that I have done, buying land and putting it in your wife's or gf's name is (or can be) a risky proposition here in Thailand. If your wife loves you, continues to love you, is not greedy, can withstand family and/or social pressures, Is a good person who does not steal, is faithful and loyal to you, can balance that with her family obligations, and you are a monogamous male, who loves and will continue to love your wife, treat her well, respect her culture and family, are not a thief ,lair , or cheat........you may stand a chance of having a good long lasting relationship with this woman and in turn have a chance of hanging onto your investment....I mean yours and hers investment

That is what I am banking on.

.....and all the paperwork that i could possibly get done too......if the relationship does fail, I may get 50% of it back

[InterestedObserver]

Agreements (contracts) concluded between husband and wife during a marriage may be voided by either party. See section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code. That is why some land offices will not allow a usufruct or superficies agreement between spouses to be registered. There is no safety in making a legal agreement with your wife!

Hi,

We are looking to buy a house, and I also want to Register a lease/usufruct for 30 years.

We will be getting married in the near future, but now (after reading above quote) I am in doubt in which order to do things.

1) Get Married, Buy House, Register Lease or

2) Buy House, Register Lease, Get Married.

Thanks for any advice/help/info

M&L

The land should be purchased and a 30 year lease and/or usufruct registered before you get married. If you are building the house get building permit in your name. Use only funds you acquired before marriage (Sin Suan Tua). That way you stand a good chance of keeping most of your investment in a divorce court. What you do with it after divorce is an open question. Use a good lawyer to assist you with the legal documents. Is your future Thai wife ok with all this?

[travelmann]

The land should be purchased and a 30 year lease and/or usufruct registered before you get married. If you are building the house get building permit in your name. Use only funds you acquired before marriage (Sin Suan Tua). That way you stand a good chance of keeping most of your investment in a divorce court. What you do with it after divorce is an open question. Use a good lawyer to assist you with the legal documents. Is your future Thai wife ok with all this?

Hi,

thanks your detailed answer.

Yes my future Thai Wife is oke with this, we already discussed this.

I just have 3 more questions.

1) We are not going to build but buy a existing house. Is there something different in this situation ?

2) I already have a condo in my own name (bought this a couple of months ago), must I do something to protect this. ?

3) Does anyone know a good lawyer in the Pattaya area, that can help us with these documents ?

The only reason why I want to put some protective measures in place is that I have heard so many horror stories

and I really just want to be sure that these horror stories don't happen to me.

I trust her, but it's better to be safe then sorry. And don't get me wrong, I am (and still will be) openly discussing

this with here, I don't want that there is any misunderstanding between us, She said she likes it that way too.

Thanks

M&L

usurfruct with third party added to it ask one of your friends/relatives to be the third party all done before you get married, build the house with imported money all going thru your bank accounts only, usufruct 100 baht at land office depending where it will be in Thailand some ask for corruption money ( i wont say tea lets not "hapy it up")

[travelmann]

The land would need to be in a Thai's name but the house can be in yours. Just make sure the building permit is in your name that all records of cash payment are from you and that these facts are noted on the title deed at the land office

the way that is done is with a superficie which notes that the house is yours and that you have a 30 or lifetime lease on the land from your girlfriend

the land office will assist, costs about 100 baht. dont bother with or trust lawyers they will push you to do a usufruct

pm me if you want

land bought before marriage is treated as a gift to the wife and is never common property.

I would have to disagree with your final statement. That is not the information that I have received. In fact, if you do a contract with your wife for "superficies" say, that can be voided by your wife. Whereas a contract with other than your wife (gf), cannot. In reality, all land bought is basically a gift to your wife. You sign a declaration when you buy the land that clearly states that the land is being bought with her money and that the land is private property, not common property. The way around this document would be to stay well clear from the land office and the sellers until the transfer is done. Then go later and register your superficies or usufruct. If the land ofice knows there is a foreigner involved, you will need to sign this declaration.

Cheers

i thought the point of the usurfruct was to make sure the westerner has some safety net so registering it after you bought it in your wife gf name seem to

take the safety of your wife gf taking your land from you away

rick

two big differences between "wife" and "girlfriend" is the issue with usufructs. For the "wife" it will protect you if she gets killed in an accident providing her will has left the house o you already but in a divorce scenario will be useless.

If when you do the usufruct when she is your "girlfriend" its much better even if you later marry. Adding a third party is even better. is how I understand it.

[InterestedObserver]

MJCM,

1. Your lawyer will need to include specific language in any agreement to cover the house.

2. A usufruct covers the land only. You need an agreement to cover the house separately, hence the 30 year lease.

3. Is a 30 year lease enough to cover your remaining lifetime? A usufruct can be for life.

4. Usufruct + superificies is ideal, but nobody has reported being able to register both on the title deed.

5. A condo already in your name is 100% secure.

6. Can't help with the lawyer recommendation.

[InterestedObserver]

Adding a third party is even better. is how I understand it.

Hi,

How does it work through a third party ? How do you set this up, please provide an example.

On another matter, I found this piece of info on one of the Forum Sponsors website,

that in my opinion contradicts what has been said, that there is no safety in making a legal agreement with your wife!

"The usufruct would be registered with a 1.5% tax of the value of the benefit( If you are not married to a Thai wife, if you are, the tax is less than 100 Baht)."

As I read this, the usufruct CAN be registered when already married and even has the benefit of paying way way less taxes.

Reading this makes me even more confused.

From the Civil and Commercial Code:

Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

[travelmann]

Adding a third party is even better. is how I understand it.

Hi,

How does it work through a third party ? How do you set this up, please provide an example.

On another matter, I found this piece of info on one of the Forum Sponsors website,

that in my opinion contradicts what has been said, that there is no safety in making a legal agreement with your wife!

"The usufruct would be registered with a 1.5% tax of the value of the benefit( If you are not married to a Thai wife, if you are, the tax is less than 100 Baht)."

As I read this, the usufruct CAN be registered when already married and even has the benefit of paying way way less taxes.

Reading this makes me even more confused.

There are some threads here on Thai Visa about the usufruct type intot the search bar.

also on adding a third party

You can do usfruct before or after married. After your marrried the only protection a usufruct offers is if your wife is hit by a bus etc dies prematurely relatives cant grab it from you.

Edited January 10, 2011 by travelmann

[quiksilva]

4. Yes, you can get a building permit for a house on leased land.

Some good advice here, but note that a building permit only indicates that you have permission to build the approved design in that specific location. It does not confer ownership of any sort real estate interest (eg fee simple / usufruct / leasehold interest).

[InterestedObserver]

4. Yes, you can get a building permit for a house on leased land.

Some good advice here, but note that a building permit only indicates that you have permission to build the approved design in that specific location. It does not confer ownership of any sort real estate interest (eg fee simple / usufruct / leasehold interest).

But the building permit can lead to legal house ownership by the foreigner.

[thaiwanderer]

4. Yes, you can get a building permit for a house on leased land.

Some good advice here, but note that a building permit only indicates that you have permission to build the approved design in that specific location. It does not confer ownership of any sort real estate interest (eg fee simple / usufruct / leasehold interest).

But the building permit can lead to legal house ownership by the foreigner.

Forgive me for asking but how does a building permit do that?

The crucial element for ownership of the building would I imagine be a construction contract or house sale and purchase agreement.

The building permit (along with the lease or whatever) evidences permission to build that buiding on that plot and hence that the building itself is 'legal' (rather than the issue of who owns the building)?

[InterestedObserver]

Thaiwanderer,

Under Thai law the owner of the land does not necessarily have to be the same as the owner of the structures on the land. The land and buildings could have two separate owners. The title deed (Chanote) is the document that the Land Department uses to record land ownership and register encumbrances such as mortgages, leases, usufructs, and superifices. The building permit or sales agreement is the document the Land Department uses to determine building ownership. If a foreigner registers a house sales agreement or obtains a building permit in his name and subsequently builds a house on land that he has leased or secured land rights too, that foreigner is the legal owner of the house as determined by the Land Department.

Edited January 11, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[thaiwanderer]

Thaiwanderer,

Under Thai law the owner of the land does not necessarily have to be the same as the owner of the structures on the land. The land and buildings could have two separate owners. The title deed (Chanote) is the document that the Land Department uses to record land ownership and register encumbrances such as mortgages, leases, usufructs, and superifices. The building permit or sales agreement is the document the Land Department uses to determine building ownership. If a foreigner registers a house sales agreement or obtains a building permit in his name and subsequently builds a house on land that he has leased or secured land rights too, that foreigner is the legal owner of the house as determined by the Land Department.

Thanks for clarifying.

One issue I've come accross is building permits being given in the name of the builder or lawyer because the client doesn't (yet) have a thai address.

Where the buyer is a foreign company technically they never will have (unless perhaps register office in Thailand)?

I suspect this may either be an invented problem or a real problem that is smoothed over with some monetary grease at times so really only a techincial issue perhaps but has anyone come accross these issues?

[Khun Jean]

From the Civil and Commercial Code:

Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

It should be noted that the "third party" should be someone that is also benefiting from the usufruct. Just adding someone would not be someone 'acting in good faith' but one that is providing a 'protecting service' for you.

Just do the usufruct before you marry and you are good to go. It's just 100 baht, or 10.000-15000 if you use a lawyer if that makes you more comfortable.

Also remember that having a usufruct only protects your right to use the land. You still can not sell it, lease it out longer than 3 years without approval of your girlfriend or wife.

As such it is just a guarantee you have a place to live, but it does not guarantee that you can have your money (part or whole) back.

[JimGant]

Agreements (contracts) concluded between husband and wife during a marriage may be voided by either party... there is no safety in making a legal agreement with your wife!

....except to assure you have a place to live should she pre-decease you. A much more important aspect for those in long-time stable relationships.