Farang Boss Managing Thais

[El Taco Loco]

HI all.

For almost a year now I have been in a high management position managing about 100 Thai staff. In a hotel environment.

What I find excrutiating is their hard headedness. They (99%) do not want to change. When changes are implement (albeit policy) they will do so, but slowly revert to their old self. In most cases they want to wear you down to where you give up and back to square one.

I have lived in Thailand 4 years. Do not speak Thai but I know about 300 words and always am able to discuss and give orders without any problems (elect dic, drawings, staff translations). Never a problem to get an idea through. But implementing it, forget it. Simply easier to talk to a brick wall.

Particularly Southerners, area where I am based. Change Policy? Try to make their jobs easier? Forget it! They want to do it the hard way. Methodical thinking, non existent. Cognitive thought process? Not there either. It is like trying to understand a Dali painting while drunk on Chang beer.

Anyone else in my shoes?

To answer future questions. I am engaged to a lovely Thai girl going on now for 3.5 years. We are expecting (totally planned) a baby in a few months. I enjoy living here, with its warts and all. 43 years old, etc. 3 dogs and crazy in-laws. (Separate house, of course).

Thanks,

Sniper

[TRIPxCORE]

Methodical thinking, non existent. Cognitive thought process? Not there either. It is like trying to understand a Dali painting while drunk on Chang beer.

Welcome to Thailand my friend. Actually, I am surprised by what you said in one regard. Usually Thai people completely defer to people that are above them in status and age which you are on the first but not sure about the second.

[Tornado]

Frustrating it is mate.

Stick to your guns, dont give up and maybe learn more Thai.

[cdnvic]

Use the face card. When one of them makes an effort to abide by your policies give them praise and rewards in front of the other staff. Build allies one by one like that.

cv

[Tywais]

Since you are upper management you must have lower management Thai personnel. As such you should meet with each one, individually not as a group and discretely so as not to bring attention to it.

Try to get their assistance in solving the problem and also see if they can give you some ideas as to why it is not working. It has to be on a one-2-one basis because no-one in a group will say anything. Also, you say you speak little Thai but can get your point across. That may not really be the case and you are presuming that they fully understand what you want of them. Other posters comment about learning Thai is a good one, without it there will always be a barrier there. This is why you should try to get the assistance from lower management Thais.

[Butterfly]

HI all.

For almost a year now I have been in a high management position managing about 100 Thai staff. In a hotel environment.

What I find excrutiating is their hard headedness. They (99%) do not want to change. When changes are implement (albeit policy) they will do so, but slowly revert to their old self. In most cases they want to wear you down to where you give up and back to square one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I feel for you. This is the exact same problem I have with my staff (not 100 for sure). I had to fire most of them but then I realized the new ones were worst than the previous. A total nightmare.

The truth is they don't want to learn and progress. They just get their salary and that's it. No need to progress or anything. No active thinking. It's very frustrating as a boss. You want to see them progress, outperform, but they don't, despite your very instructions and procedure to make them so. You have to "micro manage" them, it's embarrassing.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Butterfly

[Padkapow Guy]

I feel for you. A while back I spent @ 6 months teaching my job to the thai's that would be taking over when I went home. It's very frustrating, especially when you tell them something and ask if the understand it, and they say yes when they don't have a clue. I am not sure if that was their way of not losing face or not. I think they were waiting for the falang to go home and they would do thing their own way. Not one go getter out of the bunch of them. My boss in the states even had me take the thai plant manager to a phone every day at lunch time so he could call him and talk to him. Otherwise the manager would not call. That 6 months put about 2 years on me, but i understand the thai way alot better now.

mai pen rai attitude does not cut it when it's your money on the line.

the statement below makes alot of sense, you might want to give it a try.

Use the face card. When one of them makes an effort to abide by your policies give them praise and rewards in front of the other staff. Build allies one by one like that.

cv

good luck

PKG

Edited August 21, 2005 by Padkapow Guy

[OldAsiaHand]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The truth is they don't want to learn and progress. They just get their salary and that's it. No need to progress or anything. No active thinking. It's very frustrating as a boss. You want to see them progress, outperform, but they don't, despite your very instructions and procedure to make them so. You have to "micro manage" them, it's embarrassing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here, here. In the blizzard of political correctness that this board usually turns into, almost nobody is willing to say what you said and say it straight out. Almost any foreigner who has ever been in a position of managing Thais will tell you exactly the same thing.

My own view is that the notion of achievement leading to upward mobility that drives most westerners in at least some modest way is totally absent from Thai culture. Here there is no social mobility here, hence no real motivation toward success or achievement.

You can't gain status through achievement since your status is what you were born with, so you are best off not trying to achieve anything. Instead you reason that, with the reward for success being nothing, the punishment for failure, a significant loss of face, is not worth risking. You are therefore always safest just to sit exactly where you are, draw your salary, and make no effort at all. Yes, of course there are exceptions, but alas, the principle is still generally applicable.

[jackr]

I'm sure being told what to think as opposed to how to think in school doesn't instill much incentive for greatness?

[chuchok]

I'm sure being told what to think as opposed to how to think in school doesn't instill much incentive for greatness?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.

Exactly! This comment along with OldAsiaHand hits the nail on the head!

[monty]

The general lack in desire for upward mobility is exactly the reason why you have a select few who get extremely rich.

The few Thai people around who do desire to get somewhere in life simply don't have any competition from their fellow countrymen!

It is extremely easy for the seriously motivated employee to rise up through the ranks if he is a fast learner, takes some extra courses (English for example),...

He will get noticed by management very quickly, especially if the management is Western...

I know quite a few Thai who are very well of without even having a high school degree!

[singa-traz]

My own view is that the notion of achievement leading to upward mobility that drives most westerners in at least some modest way is totally absent from Thai culture. Here there is no social mobility here, hence no real motivation toward success or achievement.

And bringing change is not what "the Farang Managers" are expected to achieve ?

"There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers"

It's very frustrating, especially when you tell them something and ask if the understand it, and they say yes when they don't have a clue.

If you are still relying on Yes/No questions to confirm that your message was clearly understood (communicated ?), then I can imagine the frustration.

Yes, working in Thailand is an interesting challenge, everyday.

But if the only management strategy is to fire them all, at the end, who is the last one we should fired ?

I'm sure being told what to think as opposed to how to think in school doesn't instill much incentive for greatness?

Yes, improving education is a big challenge for Thailand.

In due course, Thailand’s mandatory education

of nine years, required by the National

Education Act, will be expanded to twelve

years, as envisioned by the Constitution.

Having achieved near-universal primary

education, Thailand is focusing on expanding

secondary enrolment and upgrading the

quality of education, both of which are

instrumental not only for deepening human

development, but also for enhancing national

The greatest challenge lies in improving

quality. The prevailing situation indicates

weakness in both skills (e.g. mathematics,

science and English) and creative and

critical thinking, which are the basis for

meaningful “learning” for people of all ages.

It is important to focus education reform on

the curriculum, learning process and

teacher development to achieve interactive

and student-centred education. Information

and communication technology (ICT) is

expected to bridge the urban-rural gap

and help prepare Thai students and the

community to participate in a knowledgebased

society. Finally, expanding learning

opportunities outside the classroom and

life skills development add to the quality

agenda.

extract from here: http://www.undp.or.th/documents/TMDGRSection1.pdf

[Rigger]

I am pushing a rig in the middle east we have 3 Thais ,welder,mechanic,electrian, they are good at what they do ,hard working and very easy to get along with compaired to the arabs

Plus they treat me like a long lost brother. I guess it is always good to side with the boss.

If I had my choice I would have more of them here and get rid of the Indians and Africans and Arabs

Give me a Thai worker any day

[meelousee]

Well I was going to answer this but the right ideas are already covered by cdnvic and tywais.

It is a top down situation, the lower staff management are the ones who govern, but there are also leaders sometimes lower staff management are not the leaders, identify and then convince the leaders of each group and work from that point of view as well.

It is not easy, but the reward system is the best work with the leaders, kind of a carrot and stick approach. It is really not a resistance to change it is the lack of realization to the benefits there of.

Most of management 101 you learned in school you can nearly throw the whole mess out the window when it comes to LOS.

[Butterfly]

I am pushing a rig in the middle east we have 3 Thais ,welder,mechanic,electrian, they are good at what they do ,hard working and very easy to get along with compaired to the arabs

Plus they treat me like a long lost brother. I guess it is always good to side with the boss.

If I had my choice I would have more of them here and get rid of the Indians and Africans and Arabs

Give me a Thai worker any day

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

overseas Thais are not the same. And you are absolutely right. They become hard working, very motivated and usually don't want to come back unless they have enough money to retire. They have the right attitude.

[Butterfly]

I'm sure being told what to think as opposed to how to think in school doesn't instill much incentive for greatness?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.

Exactly! This comment along with OldAsiaHand hits the nail on the head!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well I guess a side benefit of all this is the lack of competition and no danger to have your personel backstabbing you politically. Their submission in an industrial context is a dream come true for "capitalist abusers".

I don't mind them to be so "passive" most of the time but I would like to see from time to time a glimpse of motivation in their work.

The "Micro Management" is absolutely a waste of time but like someone said, when it's your money on the line, you have no other choice.

[Butterfly]

My boss in the states even had me take the thai plant manager to a phone every day at lunch time so he could call him and talk to him. Otherwise the manager would not call.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speak of "deja vue"

What amaze me is the lack of "responsability" of middle management. They should know better.

There is also another question: maybe their pay is not adequate and therefore they become "unmotivated". Bangkok has become expensive by Thai standards. I can't see how a secretary or low level personel can make a decent living on less than 10,000 baht a month

Edited August 21, 2005 by Butterfly

[TRIPxCORE]

The general lack in desire for upward mobility is exactly the reason why you have a select few who get extremely rich.

The few Thai people around who do desire to get somewhere in life simply don't have any competition from their fellow countrymen!

This statement is quite true. The government is well-aware of this too and that is why they make it so hard for farang to come here for work or business. If the Thai government opened the doors of the country to any farang that came here looking to do business, farang would make up the majority of success stories in no time.

Surely, as a matter of national pride, you don't want all the successful people in your country to be outsiders. I understand the governments point of view in this regard but on the other hand, Thailand as a country could only stand to gain by letting people in with the knowledge to make business' a success to generate revenue flow and jobs for the local economy.

[loong]

The general lack in desire for upward mobility is exactly the reason why you have a select few who get extremely rich.

The few Thai people around who do desire to get somewhere in life simply don't have any competition from their fellow countrymen!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This statement is quite true. The government is well-aware of this too and that is why they make it so hard for farang to come here for work or business. If the Thai government opened the doors of the country to any farang that came here looking to do business, farang would make up the majority of success stories in no time.

Surely, as a matter of national pride, you don't want all the successful people in your country to be outsiders. I understand the governments point of view in this regard but on the other hand, Thailand as a country could only stand to gain by letting people in with the knowledge to make business' a success to generate revenue flow and jobs for the local economy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably, the majority of success stories in Thailand are Chinese,or Chinese/Thai, so a very valid point.

I haven't had to manage Thais, but I have had work done. The problem is that even though you may be in a superior position to them at work, They will not consider you their superior.

Probably, they will listen politely, nodding all the time. Then they will go away, think that you don't know what you are talking about and 'do it their own way' or 'The way it has always been done'.

I believe that most Thais, although not exactly lazy, believe in exspending the minimum effort that they can get away with. Encouraging them to work harder with no immediate benefit just doesn't make sense to them.

"Mai pen Rai" also has a lot to answer for

[opothai]

.

Probably, they will listen politely, nodding all the time. Then they will go away, think that you don't know what you are talking about and 'do it their own way' or 'The way it has always been done'.

.

"Mai pen Rai" also has a lot to answer for

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this just about sums it up for me

at first very frustrating but after so many years of seeing this i find myself sometimes with the mai pen rai attitude

[Iain]

Use the face card. When one of them makes an effort to abide by your policies give them praise and rewards in front of the other staff. Build allies one by one like that.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, rewards, it always works.

[marquess]

This statement is quite true. The government is well-aware of this too and that is why they make it so hard for farang to come here for work or business. If the Thai government opened the doors of the country to any farang that came here looking to do business, farang would make up the majority of success stories in no time.

This is probably the reason why it is so hard to run a business here in your own name. Without the opening of markets (on Thai terms of course), then everything will remain static!

[DJ Pat]

I worked in a thai office last year. Listening to their small talk was often painfully boring.

"I ate this yesterday, it was delicious"

"I went to the toilet at 5pm yesterday"

"Have you eaten yet?

etc etc

[siamesekitty]

I've heard a colleague mention that she works "ทำตามเงินเดือน" (tham taam ngun duen) = to just "do according to your salary". In other words, if you're making what you perceive to be a meagre amount, you don't really need to put in so much effort.

But in the OP's situation it could also be that they feel you don't "understand" them enough, and are making decisions based on an "outsider's" point of view. This is sometimes the case in the company I work at. They politely listen and follow the orders of a farang boss, but might not always really agree with his ideas, resulting in half-hearted efforts.

It always helps to learn more about the language and the culture. By "culture", I'm not referring to the history or temples, but about Thai-style thinking which influences working styles and interaction. There are just all these subtle little differences in the mindset that are not so readily apparent at first. If you show your employees that you're making a effort to understand them better, you could get more cooperation and respect.

[bina]

I am pushing a rig in the middle east we have 3 Thais ,welder,mechanic,electrian, they are good at what they do ,hard working and very easy to get along with compaired to the arabs

Plus they treat me like a long lost brother. I guess it is always good to side with the boss.

If I had my choice I would have more of them here and get rid of the Indians and Africans and Arabs

Give me a Thai worker any day

500%

bina in the holyland

and it has nothing to do with their salary either; i think it has to do with what we once discussed in an another similar (thought processes of thai people) thread: thai are concerned about WHAT, and we deal with WHY.... if they do it, and it works, then why change it... the results are tangible; if u say, why do u do it this way, an other way is better, but to them the results are the same, then why does it matter anyway?

[El Taco Loco]

Hi. Thanks.

Age is a moot point. I have people in their twenties doing driving, service staff, older folks in housekeeping, gardening. Ages are from 21 through I believe 52.

It is the issue of implementing ideas given to them.

The answers are always "cannot because" and no real reason given. Or when accepted, they do it for a few days and then back to the old habits. Tell them they must improve, they then resign. No job found, they just resign. The concept of no guests no money means nothing to them.

Thanks,

Sniper

Welcome to Thailand my friend. Actually, I am surprised by what you said in one regard. Usually Thai people completely defer to people that are above them in status and age which you are on the first but not sure about the second.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[El Taco Loco]

Since you are upper management you must have lower management Thai personnel. As such you should meet with each one, individually not as a group and discretely so as not to bring attention to it.

Try to get their assistance in solving the problem and also see if they can give you some ideas as to why it is not working.  It has to be on a one-2-one basis because no-one in a group will say anything.  Also, you say you speak little Thai but can get your point across.  That may not really be the case and you are presuming that they fully understand what you want of them.  Other posters comment about learning Thai is a good one, without it there will always be a barrier there.  This is why you should try to get the assistance from lower management Thais.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed, I do that. I always go to their department heads and talk. We do have weekly meetings and those have actually improved. When it comes to critisism, I do so in private, to the DH and then follow up to see if anything has been done about it.

To you and others, thanks for the advice. You are right. Learning Thai is essential.

The issue of speaking Thai, though critical in some instances, are not really needed when I use other tools to communicate such as the ones mentioned in my previous post. Most of the items get done and done well. I am more concerned with their hard headedness and the ability to resign when it rains a little bit. Not a loss of face issue, but objective critisism they do not take at all.

Regards,

Sniper

[kenk3z]

So. Exactly how much motivation are YOU guys going to show at $10 a day salary? The highest motivated people I've seen in Farangi-land are those that are "overpaid" by comparison to their own local standards. Either they have their own business, or don't have the proper credentials but "know" someone, or they get a lot of extra perks, like top-line computers and good travel.

Then, they are motivated to keep someone else out of their job.

kenk3z

[El Taco Loco]

So.  Exactly how much motivation are YOU guys going to show at $10 a day salary?  The highest motivated people I've seen in Farangi-land are those that are "overpaid" by comparison to their own local standards.  Either they have their own business, or don't have the proper credentials but "know" someone, or they get a lot of extra perks, like top-line computers and good travel.

Then, they are motivated to keep someone else out of their job.

kenk3z

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of the staff are paid less than that, but above minimum wage and with guaranteed service charge. My experience has shown that salary plays a small part in motivating. The problem is this: You offer them more, they become more secure in their job and are lazier than before. You give them a title and forget it.

Motivation is: 2 guaranteed meals a day, service charge, staff bus, etc. Very basic and easy to give. The issue, again, is implementing policy and doing so effectively.

Sniper

[DavieA]

Sad part is this typical lack of ability and giving your all applies to their education system. It's a big reason education in this country is so poor too. Not because of the system, but because of the sheer lack of enthusiasm and inability of the teachers to give a ###### and teach.

When an English teacher at my school critisised my teaching (that I should teach more reading and writing, and not so much speaking and listening), I was really mad. She told me she had been an English teacher for 30 years and reading and writing is the most important part of our language. My reasponse to her was..." so why after 30 years of being an English teacher can you still not speak English correctly!".......She hasn't spoken to me since...hehehe

It's really sad....I care more about my students and the Thai education system than they do.

But I do have some feeling for Thais......After studying all your life, then going to uni to came out and earn 7000/ month, I probably wouldnt give a siht either!

Edited August 23, 2005 by DavieA