Thousands Of Thai Red Shirts Gather In Bangkok

[webfact]

Thousands of Thai Red Shirts gather in Bangkok

BANGKOK, December 19, 2010 (AFP) - Thousands of Thailand's "Red Shirts" gathered in Bangkok Sunday to mark seven months since a deadly military crackdown on their anti-government protest.

Wearing their signature colour, the demonstrators chanted "There were dead people here!" and released red balloons in the latest in a series of rallies in the Thai capital to commemorate those killed during unrest in April and May.

The Reds' two-month rally, which attracted 100,000 people at its peak in support of their demands for snap elections, was brought to a bloody end on May 19 with an army assault on the group's base.

The demonstration saw street battles between protesters and troops in violence that left more than 90 people dead and nearly 1,900 injured.

Around 10,000 people attended Sunday's rally, according to an AFP reporter at the scene.

Jatuporn Prompan, one of the few senior Reds not detained by authorities, called for the release of 19 leaders currently being held on terrorism charges, awaiting possible trial.

"Those who are in jail should be released as innocent people and the charges against them dismissed," he told reporters.

He said fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra had sent an email expressing his deep sorrow for the families of the dead and wounded.

Many of the mainly poor and working class Reds support the controversial ex-premier, who was ousted in a coup in 2006 and is hated by the urban elite.

The Red Shirts' new leader, Thida Thavornseth, whose husband Weng Tojirakarn is one of the leaders detained on terrorism charges, sought to distance herself from Thaksin in a recent interview with AFP.

She has also said the Reds would step up the campaign to secure the release of their leaders with gatherings twice a month in Bangkok.

The group has already staged several rallies in the capital despite a state of emergency that bans gatherings of more than five people.

Thousands took to the streets of Bangkok on December 10, eight months after deadly clashes in the city's historic district.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2010-12-19

Related topic:

Red Shirts Affirm Sunday's Rally In Bangkok To Be Staged Peacefully

[whybother]

I think Thida predicted 30,000. Didn't quite have as much support as expected.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4096023

The red-shirt movement's caretaker chairperson, Thida Thawornset, said she expected more than 30,000 protesters to turn up today. However, she added that the protests would be held peacefully.

edit: added quote ... she did get the peaceful part right at least.

Edited December 19, 2010 by whybother

[rubl]

Awhile ago (on the 15th this month) the newly elected or self-appointed red-shirt leader Ms. Thida said

The new head of the "Red Shirts", Thida Thavornseth, admits she never wanted the job and is quick to stress her independence from fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who is widely thought to be the movement's driving force.

"I don't care anything about Thaksin," she said in English, with a laugh, when asked about the divisive figure, who is hated by the elite but supported by many Red Shirts for his policies before a military coup ousted him in 2006.

"Maybe the grassroots think differently from me," the 66-year-old told AFP.

Maybe she also thinks differently as today we can read

"... After that, Mrs Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the red shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident."

Comment in English is for foreigners, anything in Thai for Thai ? How can we believe anything Mrs. Thida says if she does things like this ? Haven't they learned anything yet ?

[Emptyset]

Awhile ago (on the 15th this month) the newly elected or self-appointed red-shirt leader Ms. Thida said

The new head of the "Red Shirts", Thida Thavornseth, admits she never wanted the job and is quick to stress her independence from fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who is widely thought to be the movement's driving force.

"I don't care anything about Thaksin," she said in English, with a laugh, when asked about the divisive figure, who is hated by the elite but supported by many Red Shirts for his policies before a military coup ousted him in 2006.

"Maybe the grassroots think differently from me," the 66-year-old told AFP.

Maybe she also thinks differently as today we can read

"... After that, Mrs Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the red shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident."

Comment in English is for foreigners, anything in Thai for Thai ? How can we believe anything Mrs. Thida says if she does things like this ? Haven't they learned anything yet ?

What do you mean the comment in English is for foreigners? The letter was read out in Thai, of course. The media summarizes what was said, whether in Thai or English. Actually, it was Jatuporn that read out the letter. Anyway, Thida was obviously making clear that she personally doesn't care for Thaksin, which I've no reason not to believe since both her and Weng were part of the anti-Thaksin protests. But Jatuporn is obviously still in contact with him and he's still allied to the movement as a whole. However, it's fair to say, things have moved on from the days when Thaksin was the most important issue for red shirts, I think.

[whybother]

What do you mean the comment in English is for foreigners? The letter was read out in Thai, of course. The media summarizes what was said, whether in Thai or English. Actually, it was Jatuporn that read out the letter. Anyway, Thida was obviously making clear that she personally doesn't care for Thaksin, which I've no reason not to believe since both her and Weng were part of the anti-Thaksin protests. But Jatuporn is obviously still in contact with him and he's still allied to the movement as a whole. However, it's fair to say, things have moved on from the days when Thaksin was the most important issue for red shirts, I think.

The new head of the "Red Shirts", Thida Thavornseth, admits she never wanted the job and is quick to stress her independence from fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who is widely thought to be the movement's driving force.

"I don't care anything about Thaksin," she said in English, with a laugh, when asked about the divisive figure, who is hated by the elite but supported by many Red Shirts for his policies before a military coup ousted him in 2006.

"Maybe the grassroots think differently from me," the 66-year-old told AFP.

[rubl]

Awhile ago (on the 15th this month) the newly elected or self-appointed red-shirt leader Ms. Thida said

The new head of the "Red Shirts", Thida Thavornseth, admits she never wanted the job and is quick to stress her independence from fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who is widely thought to be the movement's driving force.

"I don't care anything about Thaksin," she said in English, with a laugh, when asked about the divisive figure, who is hated by the elite but supported by many Red Shirts for his policies before a military coup ousted him in 2006.

"Maybe the grassroots think differently from me," the 66-year-old told AFP.

Maybe she also thinks differently as today we can read

"... After that, Mrs Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the red shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident."

Comment in English is for foreigners, anything in Thai for Thai ? How can we believe anything Mrs. Thida says if she does things like this ? Haven't they learned anything yet ?

What do you mean the comment in English is for foreigners? The letter was read out in Thai, of course. The media summarizes what was said, whether in Thai or English. Actually, it was Jatuporn that read out the letter. Anyway, Thida was obviously making clear that she personally doesn't care for Thaksin, which I've no reason not to believe since both her and Weng were part of the anti-Thaksin protests. But Jatuporn is obviously still in contact with him and he's still allied to the movement as a whole. However, it's fair to say, things have moved on from the days when Thaksin was the most important issue for red shirts, I think.

Of course the letter was read out in Thai for a Thai audience. English was the remark from a few days ago !

As for Mrs. Thida, k. Jatuporn, k. Somyot, k. Sombat, is it 'a common cause makes for strange bedfellows'? Red-shirts, UDD/DAAD, 24th of June, Red this and Red that. Together, some with, some without k. Thaksin, but together. Who to believe, or simply none to believe?

Things have moved, but not nearly as much as some will have it

(edit: forgot to mention the common cause, DEMOCRACY of course )

Edited December 19, 2010 by rubl

[Emptyset]

Awhile ago (on the 15th this month) the newly elected or self-appointed red-shirt leader Ms. Thida said

The new head of the "Red Shirts", Thida Thavornseth, admits she never wanted the job and is quick to stress her independence from fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who is widely thought to be the movement's driving force.

"I don't care anything about Thaksin," she said in English, with a laugh, when asked about the divisive figure, who is hated by the elite but supported by many Red Shirts for his policies before a military coup ousted him in 2006.

"Maybe the grassroots think differently from me," the 66-year-old told AFP.

Maybe she also thinks differently as today we can read

"... After that, Mrs Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the red shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident."

Comment in English is for foreigners, anything in Thai for Thai ? How can we believe anything Mrs. Thida says if she does things like this ? Haven't they learned anything yet ?

What do you mean the comment in English is for foreigners? The letter was read out in Thai, of course. The media summarizes what was said, whether in Thai or English. Actually, it was Jatuporn that read out the letter. Anyway, Thida was obviously making clear that she personally doesn't care for Thaksin, which I've no reason not to believe since both her and Weng were part of the anti-Thaksin protests. But Jatuporn is obviously still in contact with him and he's still allied to the movement as a whole. However, it's fair to say, things have moved on from the days when Thaksin was the most important issue for red shirts, I think.

Of course the letter was read out in Thai for a Thai audience. English was the remark from a few days ago !

As for Mrs. Thida, k. Jatuporn, k. Somyot, k. Sombat, is it 'a common cause makes for strange bedfellows'? Red-shirts, UDD/DAAD, 24th of June, Red this and Red that. Together, some with, some without k. Thaksin, but together. Who to believe, or simply none to believe?

Things have moved, but not nearly as much as some will have it

(edit: forgot to mention the common cause, DEMOCRACY of course )

Ah, OK, sorry misunderstood you. Well, I doubt Thida would disown him completely because that would be 'divisive' at the moment, I agree with you though, Thaksin is still one of the main motivators for people to join. Other hand the longer it goes on without him in the country, the more it seems to move further from his cause & his grip. I mean, it's not actually clear what he wants. I wonder if he's actually made any demands or whether Abhisit was being truthful in the Asia Times interview when he said Thaksin has never asked for anything for himself (or something along those lines)? Is he hoping for a revolution that will bring him back to power, or does he just want an amnesty to avoid jail etc? Maybe he doesn't know what he wants.

[Insight]

Here we go again

Same record, another year. Thaksin isn't funding the red shirts. The red shirts have grown beyond Thaksin. Thaksin is just a spiritual leader...

Nonsense. For the past two years this has proven to be complete tripe as any visit to a red rally will quickly remind anyone. Now we're expected to believe it for a third year on the run, whille his letters are being read out by the leaders...? (didn't the letter say something to the effect of the "war" not being over?)

Thaksin's money is funding the movement to achieve Thaksin's aims. Want to know what they are? Ask any Thai - red, anti or neutral - in private.

[Emptyset]

Here we go again

Same record, another year. Thaksin isn't funding the red shirts. The red shirts have grown beyond Thaksin. Thaksin is just a spiritual leader...

Nonsense. For the past two years this has proven to be complete tripe as any visit to a red rally will quickly remind anyone. Now we're expected to believe it for a third year on the run, whille his letters are being read out by the leaders...? (didn't the letter say something to the effect of the "war" not being over?)

Thaksin's money is funding the movement to achieve Thaksin's aims. Want to know what they are? Ask any Thai - red, anti or neutral - in private.

The letter said the fight for democracy wasn't over and Thaksin will give moral support for a "peacefu" & "non-violent" fight:

"After that, Ms Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the Red Shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident.

The ex-premier said he gave morale support to the peaceful and non-violent fight of the Red Shirts and wished them victory in calling for democracy and justice."*

So, Thaksin has similar aims to the red shirts who want to overthrow the regime of the amatayatippatai. So it's not surprising that they're allied, is it? In fact it seems probable that Thaksin is less radical than many if not most red shirts, so why paint it as "Thaksin's goal", don't the red shirts have any agency of their own? People were talking about the amaat soon after the coup, it's not a concept introduced by Thaksin, it's actually him that borrowed it from other activists... like Thida, Weng and so fourth. I don't think Thaksin really believes in much other than himself, he'll jump onto any bandwagon that he thinks will give him an advantage and that's precisely why the red shirts shouldn't trust or rely on him if they want to carry out their "patiwat". If tomorrow the other elites cut a deal with Thaksin, do you still think he'd back a revolution? I suspect not. Anyway, Thida said she personally hadn't taken money from him, I don't think she claimed others hadn't?

*http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/144972.html

[Emptyset]

"it's actually him that borrowed it from other activists... like Thida, Weng and so fourth." Shouldn't have said "other" here, it implies Thaksin is an activist, which of course he isn't, for anything other than himself.

[Emptyset]

Whybother - you do understand the difference between *I* and *we* right? She claimed she doesn't care for Thaksin. She didn't say *we* (i.e. the red shirt movement as a whole doesn't care for him), in fact she actually said perhaps the grassroots think differently, which is something we know to be true. But many urban red shirts I've spoken to don't care for him at all, they just see the red shirt movement as the best opportunity to reform the power structure. However, I know it's different upcountry where a lot of emphasis is still placed on Thaksin. Well, that's just the logic of the patronage system and the hero-worship which is practically taught in Thai schools, isn't it? If you want to stop Thais thinking politics as a personal battle between different heroes & villains and get them to think about it ideologically, well, that's something that has to be taught. It doesn't mean they're stupid.

But I put it to you again, as someone that wasn't involved with TRT & in fact someone that protested against Thaksin, why should we believe that Thida has suddenly become one of his acolytes? If PAD had been a bit smarter, less elitist and royalist & not lead by Sondhi, there could've been an anti-Thaksin movement for radical structural change, greater political equality and enfranchisement, instead PAD choose the opposite route... but that's all water under the bridge now, we are where we are. It's perfectly true that many that were part of the initial anti-Thaksin movement are now wearing red-shirts, or sympathetic to them, so if this type of red shirt gains more traction then it'll become a very important social movement for positive change... if the Thaksinistas win then nothing much will change at all (you're just swapping one set of elites for another, after all), and people will have died for nothing, again.

[jayjay0]

Awhile ago (on the 15th this month) the newly elected or self-appointed red-shirt leader Ms. Thida said

The new head of the "Red Shirts", Thida Thavornseth, admits she never wanted the job and is quick to stress her independence from fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who is widely thought to be the movement's driving force.

"I don't care anything about Thaksin," she said in English, with a laugh, when asked about the divisive figure, who is hated by the elite but supported by many Red Shirts for his policies before a military coup ousted him in 2006.

"Maybe the grassroots think differently from me," the 66-year-old told AFP.

Maybe she also thinks differently as today we can read

"... After that, Mrs Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the red shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident."

Comment in English is for foreigners, anything in Thai for Thai ? How can we believe anything Mrs. Thida says if she does things like this ? Haven't they learned anything yet ?

If her lips are moving it is a dead give away that she is lying. I really like how they open up with

Calling there actions a protest and the Government action deadly military crackdown on their anti-government protest.

They open with the Governments part in it being a deadly military action and go on to say there part was just a protest.

I guess with the new leadership we get the same rhetoric just a different mouth. They probably think they should get the Nobel peace prize. How can any one with a so called education be so far out of touch with reality? Even Fox news gets closer to the truth with there soon to be animation news. LOL

[Siam Simon]

Whybother - you do understand the difference between *I* and *we* right? She claimed she doesn't care for Thaksin. She didn't say *we* (i.e. the red shirt movement as a whole doesn't care for him), in fact she actually said perhaps the grassroots think differently, which is something we know to be true. But many urban red shirts I've spoken to don't care for him at all, they just see the red shirt movement as the best opportunity to reform the power structure. However, I know it's different upcountry where a lot of emphasis is still placed on Thaksin. Well, that's just the logic of the patronage system and the hero-worship which is practically taught in Thai schools, isn't it? If you want to stop Thais thinking politics as a personal battle between different heroes & villains and get them to think about it ideologically, well, that's something that has to be taught. It doesn't mean they're stupid.

But I put it to you again, as someone that wasn't involved with TRT & in fact someone that protested against Thaksin, why should we believe that Thida has suddenly become one of his acolytes? If PAD had been a bit smarter, less elitist and royalist & not lead by Sondhi, there could've been an anti-Thaksin movement for radical structural change, greater political equality and enfranchisement, instead PAD choose the opposite route... but that's all water under the bridge now, we are where we are. It's perfectly true that many that were part of the initial anti-Thaksin movement are now wearing red-shirts, or sympathetic to them, so if this type of red shirt gains more traction then it'll become a very important social movement for positive change... if the Thaksinistas win then nothing much will change at all (you're just swapping one set of elites for another, after all), and people will have died for nothing, again.

I normally have a good chortle at the cheerleaders on TV, but there's not a lot that I could add to this common-sense post.

[rubl]

Here we go again

Same record, another year. Thaksin isn't funding the red shirts. The red shirts have grown beyond Thaksin. Thaksin is just a spiritual leader...

Nonsense. For the past two years this has proven to be complete tripe as any visit to a red rally will quickly remind anyone. Now we're expected to believe it for a third year on the run, whille his letters are being read out by the leaders...? (didn't the letter say something to the effect of the "war" not being over?)

Thaksin's money is funding the movement to achieve Thaksin's aims. Want to know what they are? Ask any Thai - red, anti or neutral - in private.

The letter said the fight for democracy wasn't over and Thaksin will give moral support for a "peacefu" & "non-violent" fight:

"After that, Ms Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the Red Shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident.

The ex-premier said he gave morale support to the peaceful and non-violent fight of the Red Shirts and wished them victory in calling for democracy and justice."*

So, Thaksin has similar aims to the red shirts who want to overthrow the regime of the amatayatippatai. So it's not surprising that they're allied, is it? In fact it seems probable that Thaksin is less radical than many if not most red shirts, so why paint it as "Thaksin's goal", don't the red shirts have any agency of their own? People were talking about the amaat soon after the coup, it's not a concept introduced by Thaksin, it's actually him that borrowed it from other activists... like Thida, Weng and so fourth. I don't think Thaksin really believes in much other than himself, he'll jump onto any bandwagon that he thinks will give him an advantage and that's precisely why the red shirts shouldn't trust or rely on him if they want to carry out their "patiwat". If tomorrow the other elites cut a deal with Thaksin, do you still think he'd back a revolution? I suspect not. Anyway, Thida said she personally hadn't taken money from him, I don't think she claimed others hadn't?

*http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/144972.html

The problem with a 'movement' with too many faces is that it gets very difficult to know what to believe. One says 'bring Thaksin back', another 'I don't care about him'. Even k. Thaksin has added to the confusion by issuing contradictory statements, 'I will with draw from politics', 'I stand behind you with my family, keep on fighting', 'I want peace for all'.

So how to regard this 'red-shirt' movement? Militants, a bunch of liars, grass-root protesters, democracy lovers, people with real grieves? Probably all applies. Doesn't make it easier for non-believers though. Trying to publicly distance the movement from mistakes in the past may be a good way to win the hearts of many more people.

One thing seems clear, when people talk about 'elite' they mostly mean the other side's elite, not theirs. Unless Thailand manages to get rid of the patronage system nothing will change fundamentally. Democracy has to be earned

Edited December 19, 2010 by rubl

[webfact]

Red-shIrt rally goes off peacefully

By The Nation

Thousands of red shirts gathered yesterday at Rajprasong business centre to commemorate the seventh month of the May bloody crackdown demanding the release of hundreds of their leaders detained since then.

The red shirts would gather at the 10th and 19th day of every month until they obtain justice and truth over the death of protesters would be unveiled, said the leader of Democratic Alliance Against Dictator (DAAD) Thida Thavornset.

The antigovernment red shirted protest was crackdown on April 10 and May 19. The incidents and other related violence led to the death of 91 people including many security officers.

More than 1,600 police deployed in the area to provide security guard at the protesting site and arranged traffic flow at Rajprasong intersection yesterday.

Their activities went smoothly and peacefully but affected traffic flow in the area.

Thida expected that more than 30,000 red shirted people participated in the event yesterday which began with the merit making at Prathumwanaram temple for the dead protesters. Their gathering lasted only a few hours.

The red shirts gathering yesterday was a combination of many groups including the DAAD and other independent red shirts.

The Red Sunday group led by activist Sombat Boonngamanong began their activities at 3 p.m. yesterday with origami paper bird to express their wish of freedom and the floating of balloons to express the wish of release of detained red leaders.

Another red leader and opposition Pheu Thai Party's MP Jatuporn Promphan yesterday said former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has sent an electronic letter to express his condolence over the death of 91 people in the protest. Thaksin urged the red group to stay on until the country got full democracy.

The red groups ended their gathering with the red candles lit up at Rajprasong.

-- The Nation 2010-12-20

[Buchholz]

Awhile ago (on the 15th this month) the newly elected or self-appointed red-shirt leader Ms. Thida said

The new head of the "Red Shirts", Thida Thavornseth, admits she never wanted the job and is quick to stress her independence from fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who is widely thought to be the movement's driving force.

"I don't care anything about Thaksin," she said in English, with a laugh, when asked about the divisive figure, who is hated by the elite but supported by many Red Shirts for his policies before a military coup ousted him in 2006.

"Maybe the grassroots think differently from me," the 66-year-old told AFP.

Maybe she also thinks differently as today we can read

"... After that, Mrs Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the red shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident."

Comment in English is for foreigners, anything in Thai for Thai ? How can we believe anything Mrs. Thida says if she does things like this ? Haven't they learned anything yet ?

It's just more empty pledges coming from the Red hierarchy.

The same sort of deceptions and mistruths uttered by them over the past 4 years.

[Buchholz]

Here we go again

Same record, another year. Thaksin isn't funding the red shirts. The red shirts have grown beyond Thaksin. Thaksin is just a spiritual leader...

Nonsense. For the past two years this has proven to be complete tripe as any visit to a red rally will quickly remind anyone. Now we're expected to believe it for a third year on the run, whille his letters are being read out by the leaders...? (didn't the letter say something to the effect of the "war" not being over?)

Thaksin's money is funding the movement to achieve Thaksin's aims. Want to know what they are? Ask any Thai - red, anti or neutral - in private.

Absolutely!

Disingenuous "it's not about Thaksin" proclamations ring hollow... but that doesn't stop them from trying to throw it out there again and again.

[Emptyset]

Here we go again

Same record, another year. Thaksin isn't funding the red shirts. The red shirts have grown beyond Thaksin. Thaksin is just a spiritual leader...

Nonsense. For the past two years this has proven to be complete tripe as any visit to a red rally will quickly remind anyone. Now we're expected to believe it for a third year on the run, whille his letters are being read out by the leaders...? (didn't the letter say something to the effect of the "war" not being over?)

Thaksin's money is funding the movement to achieve Thaksin's aims. Want to know what they are? Ask any Thai - red, anti or neutral - in private.

The letter said the fight for democracy wasn't over and Thaksin will give moral support for a "peacefu" & "non-violent" fight:

"After that, Ms Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the Red Shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident.

The ex-premier said he gave morale support to the peaceful and non-violent fight of the Red Shirts and wished them victory in calling for democracy and justice."*

So, Thaksin has similar aims to the red shirts who want to overthrow the regime of the amatayatippatai. So it's not surprising that they're allied, is it? In fact it seems probable that Thaksin is less radical than many if not most red shirts, so why paint it as "Thaksin's goal", don't the red shirts have any agency of their own? People were talking about the amaat soon after the coup, it's not a concept introduced by Thaksin, it's actually him that borrowed it from other activists... like Thida, Weng and so fourth. I don't think Thaksin really believes in much other than himself, he'll jump onto any bandwagon that he thinks will give him an advantage and that's precisely why the red shirts shouldn't trust or rely on him if they want to carry out their "patiwat". If tomorrow the other elites cut a deal with Thaksin, do you still think he'd back a revolution? I suspect not. Anyway, Thida said she personally hadn't taken money from him, I don't think she claimed others hadn't?

*http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/144972.html

The problem with a 'movement' with too many faces is that it gets very difficult to know what to believe. One says 'bring Thaksin back', another 'I don't care about him'. Even k. Thaksin has added to the confusion by issuing contradictory statements, 'I will with draw from politics', 'I stand behind you with my family, keep on fighting', 'I want peace for all'.

So how to regard this 'red-shirt' movement? Militants, a bunch of liars, grass-root protesters, democracy lovers, people with real grieves? Probably all applies. Doesn't make it easier for non-believers though. Trying to publicly distance the movement from mistakes in the past may be a good way to win the hearts of many more people.

One thing seems clear, when people talk about 'elite' they mostly mean the other side's elite, not theirs. Unless Thailand manages to get rid of the patronage system nothing will change fundamentally. Democracy has to be earned

Don't disagree with what you say. One thing is clear, if the red shirts eyes don't open to Thaksin and some of their own leaders, well, certainly "true democracy" cannot be achieved. They also need to come up with a coherent game plan and vision for the country which they can all agree on which in turn might persuade some in the "not sure" camp, of which there are still many.

I personally find it difficult to say which side is right or wrong & which direction the country would be off going in. So I'm trying not to invest too much support in anyone as things can quickly change & re-alignments made. I mean I quite like Abhisit, he's got some good ideas and left to his own devices, I think he'd do a very decent job as PM, but I don't like some of the people he's gotten involved with nor the fact that he seemed to have sacrificed some of his ideals during his tenure as PM. Though fair to say all politicians seem to put pragmatism above ideals when they actually gain power. I certainly admired him a lot more as an opposition leader than I do now, feel he might be irrevocably tainted & doomed to be a polarizing figure at least in the foreseeable future. I also quite like some red shirts & their leaders, especially Sombat but I also have time for Thida & Dr Weng, plus a few others. I think it's clear Abhisit & some of the more forward thinking red shirts have more in common than extremists from either side. But I've got absolutely no respect for Thaksin, and with people like Panlop, Manoon & Chavalit maneuvering in the shadows the red shirts can still be used for reactionary purposes. Have to say I'm in the "not sure" camp too, keeping an open mind & not thinking dichotomously is obviously the way to go (in an ideal world of course, in reality people with a stake in things tend to choose sides). That's the problem with this conflict, people are so partisan they lost sight of right and wrong.

[timekeeper]

Many of the mainly poor and working class Reds support the controversial ex-premier, who was ousted in a coup in 2006 and is hated by the urban elite.

not only the urban elite........

[jayjay0]

emptyset your post

Don't disagree with what you say. One thing is clear, if the red shirts eyes don't open to Thaksin and some of their own leaders, well, certainly "true democracy" cannot be achieved. They also need to come up with a coherent game plan and vision for the country which they can all agree on which in turn might persuade some in the "not sure" camp, of which there are still many.

I personally find it difficult to say which side is right or wrong & which direction the country would be off going in. So I'm trying not to invest too much support in anyone as things can quickly change & re-alignments made. I mean I quite like Abhisit, he's got some good ideas and left to his own devices, I think he'd do a very decent job as PM, but I don't like some of the people he's gotten involved with nor the fact that he seemed to have sacrificed some of his ideals during his tenure as PM. Though fair to say all politicians seem to put pragmatism above ideals when they actually gain power. I certainly admired him a lot more as an opposition leader than I do now, feel he might be irrevocably tainted & doomed to be a polarizing figure at least in the foreseeable future. I also quite like some red shirts & their leaders, especially Sombat but I also have time for Thida & Dr Weng, plus a few others. I think it's clear Abhisit & some of the more forward thinking red shirts have more in common than extremists from either side. But I've got absolutely no respect for Thaksin, and with people like Panlop, Manoon & Chavalit maneuvering in the shadows the red shirts can still be used for reactionary purposes. Have to say I'm in the "not sure" camp too, keeping an open mind & not thinking dichotomously is obviously the way to go (in an ideal world of course, in reality people with a stake in things tend to choose sides). That's the problem with this conflict, people are so partisan they lost sight of right and wrong.

my reply

If I read you rite you are claiming true democracy can only be brought about by the red shirts. What kind of a leadership will we have if they do not attain the leadership of Thailand.

I completely agree with you things can quickly change. But to be honest with you I really believe it will take a long time before the red shirts change enough to say we were wrong. As long as they maintain that they were OK they will be unable to change. They may change there visual leaders but they will never be able to change there unwritten manifesto of bring Thaksin back.

Why is it the people who claim to want democracy join with the red shirts. I mean let us be realistic What have they done to support the idea of wanting democracy other than standing around and saying it. That is the talk portion the action portion was last spring it involved guns and fire.

If they want democracy

Why don't they join with Abhist. To the best of my knowledge he wants Democracy.

Simple answer. He dosen't want Thaksin in power.

MY opinion only.

Edited December 20, 2010 by jayjay0

[webfact]

Red Shirts Hold Rally to Commemorate 7th Month Anniversary of Unrest

In defiance to the state of emergency, the red shirt leaders have organized a rally at Ratchaprasong Intersection to commemorate the 7th month anniversary of the bloody unrest.

Yesterday's afternoon, a large number of the red shirt protestors organized a rally at Ratchaprasong Intersection to commemorate the 7th month anniversary of the unrest.

They also demanded the government to release the jailed red shirt leaders.

The Ratchadamri Road, all the way to Pratunam area, was closed off during the rally, in which a speaker truck was used.

The also took part in the symbolic activities such as the tying of red cloths and the releasing the red colored balloons.

Some of the demonstrators also carried signs with messages strongly criticizing and condemning the government.

Commander of the Region 1 Metropolitan Police Bureau Police Major General Wichai Sangprapai has admitted that there were many people at the rally.

Initially, the red shirts were only allowed to use a part of the road, not the whole intersection area.

However, the protestors later removed the police blockades and occupied all sides of the intersection.

At around 5PM, the group led by MP Jatuporn Promphan and Thida Thavornset, took part in the remembrance ceremony of the red shirt protestors killed inside Wat Pathum Wanaram Buddhist Temple during the unrest.

The rally eventually ended at around 8 PM.

To ensure peace and order, 7 companies of the anti-police were deployed at the gathering.

While the traffic in and out the area was directed by another 200 police officers.

-- Tan Network 2010-12-20

[rubl]

It must be me, I still don't get it. May be I do and just don't like my conclusion? Probably just the lack of details in newsflashes.

- commemorate the 7th month anniversary of the unrest

- demanded the government to release the jailed red shirt leaders

- remembrance ceremony of the red shirt protestors killed inside Wat Pathum Wanaram Buddhist Temple during the unrest

- gather at the 10th and 19th day of every month until they obtain justice and truth over the death of protesters would be unveiled

- UDD would continue twice monthly rallies until justice is returned and its core leaders detained for terrorism-related charges are released

- protests on the 10th and the 19th of every month until their demands for justice are met

So now the questions:

- Any compassion for the non-red deaths ?

- What are the demands for justice ?

- Why always 'release our leaders' with so many common red-shirts having to rely on the government to help ?

- Any 'mea culpa' for being at least similarly guilty of 91 deaths like the government?

- Any 'mea culpa' for the 60+ grenade attacks by 'red sympathisers' ?

- Any 'real' program to help people to reach self-reliance, empowerment and improved circumstances ?

The conditions for terminating the monthly protests seem just as open ended as those made in March - May this year. Count on extra traffic jams at Ratchaprasong twice a month for a long time to come

[yoshiwara]

Ah, OK, sorry misunderstood you. Well, I doubt Thida would disown him completely because that would be 'divisive' at the moment, I agree with you though, Thaksin is still one of the main motivators for people to join. Other hand the longer it goes on without him in the country, the more it seems to move further from his cause & his grip. I mean, it's not actually clear what he wants. I wonder if he's actually made any demands or whether Abhisit was being truthful in the Asia Times interview when he said Thaksin has never asked for anything for himself (or something along those lines)? Is he hoping for a revolution that will bring him back to power, or does he just want an amnesty to avoid jail etc? Maybe he doesn't know what he wants.

Not actually clear what he wants? Give me a break. He wants back his power and resume looting the state. That is what he is paying for. The reds are the tools. It is not exactly rocket science.

[SweeneyAgonistes]

Count on extra traffic jams at Ratchaprasong twice a month for a long time to come

I'll drink to that.

[yoshiwara]

The letter said the fight for democracy wasn't over and Thaksin will give moral support for a "peacefu" & "non-violent" fight:

"After that, Ms Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the Red Shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident.

The ex-premier said he gave morale support to the peaceful and non-violent fight of the Red Shirts and wished them victory in calling for democracy and justice."*

So, Thaksin has similar aims to the red shirts who want to overthrow the regime of the amatayatippatai. So it's not surprising that they're allied, is it? In fact it seems probable that Thaksin is less radical than many if not most red shirts, so why paint it as "Thaksin's goal", don't the red shirts have any agency of their own? People were talking about the amaat soon after the coup, it's not a concept introduced by Thaksin, it's actually him that borrowed it from other activists... like Thida, Weng and so fourth. I don't think Thaksin really believes in much other than himself, he'll jump onto any bandwagon that he thinks will give him an advantage and that's precisely why the red shirts shouldn't trust or rely on him if they want to carry out their "patiwat". If tomorrow the other elites cut a deal with Thaksin, do you still think he'd back a revolution? I suspect not. Anyway, Thida said she personally hadn't taken money from him, I don't think she claimed others hadn't?

*http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/144972.html

It is the old old apologist story of trying to separate the reds from Thaksin. Here they are said to be allied.The reds do not stray one inch from Thaksin's agenda, but if they do another wing is ready to do Thaksin's bidding. The existence of the Blackshirts and Seh Daeng last May is a prime example. He is not only the paymaster but the final decider of political direction. The reds are not allies they are pawns. This is why TS refuses the leadership of PTP to one of the parliamentary members so that an alternative pole of attraction does not emerge.

[hyperdimension]

So now the questions:

- Any compassion for the non-red deaths ?

- What are the demands for justice ?

- Why always 'release our leaders' with so many common red-shirts having to rely on the government to help ?

- Any 'mea culpa' for being at least similarly guilty of 91 deaths like the government?

- Any 'mea culpa' for the 60+ grenade attacks by 'red sympathisers' ?

- Any 'real' program to help people to reach self-reliance, empowerment and improved circumstances ?

The conditions for terminating the monthly protests seem just as open ended as those made in March - May this year.

I have the same thoughts, you summed them up well. After so many protests they still cannot answer such questions. They still see their leaders as completely innocent even after they had clearly incited terrorism.

Thida's main goal is probably just to get her husband back home, not to work on improving the future of Thailand.

Edited December 20, 2010 by hyperdimension

[hyperdimension]

Another red leader and opposition Pheu Thai Party's MP Jatuporn Promphan yesterday said former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has sent an electronic letter to express his condolence over the death of 91 people in the protest. Thaksin urged the red group to stay on until the country got full democracy.

Jatuporn probably wrote the "electronic letter" himself.

Also, I thought the use of loudspeakers were not allowed. It looks like the police actually let him use theirs to spew out his verbal diarrhea.

Edited December 20, 2010 by hyperdimension

[bulmercke]

Here we go again

Same record, another year. Thaksin isn't funding the red shirts. The red shirts have grown beyond Thaksin. Thaksin is just a spiritual leader...

Nonsense. For the past two years this has proven to be complete tripe as any visit to a red rally will quickly remind anyone. Now we're expected to believe it for a third year on the run, whille his letters are being read out by the leaders...? (didn't the letter say something to the effect of the "war" not being over?)

Thaksin's money is funding the movement to achieve Thaksin's aims. Want to know what they are? Ask any Thai - red, anti or neutral - in private.

The letter said the fight for democracy wasn't over and Thaksin will give moral support for a "peacefu" & "non-violent" fight:

"After that, Ms Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the Red Shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident.

The ex-premier said he gave morale support to the peaceful and non-violent fight of the Red Shirts and wished them victory in calling for democracy and justice."*

So, Thaksin has similar aims to the red shirts who want to overthrow the regime of the amatayatippatai. So it's not surprising that they're allied, is it? In fact it seems probable that Thaksin is less radical than many if not most red shirts, so why paint it as "Thaksin's goal", don't the red shirts have any agency of their own? People were talking about the amaat soon after the coup, it's not a concept introduced by Thaksin, it's actually him that borrowed it from other activists... like Thida, Weng and so fourth. I don't think Thaksin really believes in much other than himself, he'll jump onto any bandwagon that he thinks will give him an advantage and that's precisely why the red shirts shouldn't trust or rely on him if they want to carry out their "patiwat". If tomorrow the other elites cut a deal with Thaksin, do you still think he'd back a revolution? I suspect not. Anyway, Thida said she personally hadn't taken money from him, I don't think she claimed others hadn't?

*http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/144972.html

The problem with a 'movement' with too many faces is that it gets very difficult to know what to believe. One says 'bring Thaksin back', another 'I don't care about him'. Even k. Thaksin has added to the confusion by issuing contradictory statements, 'I will with draw from politics', 'I stand behind you with my family, keep on fighting', 'I want peace for all'.

So how to regard this 'red-shirt' movement? Militants, a bunch of liars, grass-root protesters, democracy lovers, people with real grieves? Probably all applies. Doesn't make it easier for non-believers though. Trying to publicly distance the movement from mistakes in the past may be a good way to win the hearts of many more people.

One thing seems clear, when people talk about 'elite' they mostly mean the other side's elite, not theirs. Unless Thailand manages to get rid of the patronage system nothing will change fundamentally. Democracy has to be earned

Don't disagree with what you say. One thing is clear, if the red shirts eyes don't open to Thaksin and some of their own leaders, well, certainly "true democracy" cannot be achieved. They also need to come up with a coherent game plan and vision for the country which they can all agree on which in turn might persuade some in the "not sure" camp, of which there are still many.

I personally find it difficult to say which side is right or wrong & which direction the country would be off going in. So I'm trying not to invest too much support in anyone as things can quickly change & re-alignments made. I mean I quite like Abhisit, he's got some good ideas and left to his own devices, I think he'd do a very decent job as PM, but I don't like some of the people he's gotten involved with nor the fact that he seemed to have sacrificed some of his ideals during his tenure as PM. Though fair to say all politicians seem to put pragmatism above ideals when they actually gain power. I certainly admired him a lot more as an opposition leader than I do now, feel he might be irrevocably tainted & doomed to be a polarizing figure at least in the foreseeable future. I also quite like some red shirts & their leaders, especially Sombat but I also have time for Thida & Dr Weng, plus a few others. I think it's clear Abhisit & some of the more forward thinking red shirts have more in common than extremists from either side. But I've got absolutely no respect for Thaksin, and with people like Panlop, Manoon & Chavalit maneuvering in the shadows the red shirts can still be used for reactionary purposes. Have to say I'm in the "not sure" camp too, keeping an open mind & not thinking dichotomously is obviously the way to go (in an ideal world of course, in reality people with a stake in things tend to choose sides). That's the problem with this conflict, people are so partisan they lost sight of right and wrong.

Emptyset - you make several good points. And it's refreshing to see a post here that isn't saturated with the anti-Red vitriol that seems to be all the rage nowadays.

[rubl]

The letter said the fight for democracy wasn't over and Thaksin will give moral support for a "peacefu" & "non-violent" fight:

"After that, Ms Thida and Jatuporn Prompan delivered their speeches from a police vehicle, reading a letter to the Red Shirts from ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, ousted in a Sept 2006 coup that he expressed deep sorrow and mourning for the families of the dead and injured in the May incident.

The ex-premier said he gave morale support to the peaceful and non-violent fight of the Red Shirts and wished them victory in calling for democracy and justice."*

So, Thaksin has similar aims to the red shirts who want to overthrow the regime of the amatayatippatai. So it's not surprising that they're allied, is it? In fact it seems probable that Thaksin is less radical than many if not most red shirts, so why paint it as "Thaksin's goal", don't the red shirts have any agency of their own? People were talking about the amaat soon after the coup, it's not a concept introduced by Thaksin, it's actually him that borrowed it from other activists... like Thida, Weng and so fourth. I don't think Thaksin really believes in much other than himself, he'll jump onto any bandwagon that he thinks will give him an advantage and that's precisely why the red shirts shouldn't trust or rely on him if they want to carry out their "patiwat". If tomorrow the other elites cut a deal with Thaksin, do you still think he'd back a revolution? I suspect not. Anyway, Thida said she personally hadn't taken money from him, I don't think she claimed others hadn't?

*http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/144972.html

The problem with a 'movement' with too many faces is that it gets very difficult to know what to believe. One says 'bring Thaksin back', another 'I don't care about him'. Even k. Thaksin has added to the confusion by issuing contradictory statements, 'I will with draw from politics', 'I stand behind you with my family, keep on fighting', 'I want peace for all'.

So how to regard this 'red-shirt' movement? Militants, a bunch of liars, grass-root protesters, democracy lovers, people with real grieves? Probably all applies. Doesn't make it easier for non-believers though. Trying to publicly distance the movement from mistakes in the past may be a good way to win the hearts of many more people.

One thing seems clear, when people talk about 'elite' they mostly mean the other side's elite, not theirs. Unless Thailand manages to get rid of the patronage system nothing will change fundamentally. Democracy has to be earned

Don't disagree with what you say. One thing is clear, if the red shirts eyes don't open to Thaksin and some of their own leaders, well, certainly "true democracy" cannot be achieved. They also need to come up with a coherent game plan and vision for the country which they can all agree on which in turn might persuade some in the "not sure" camp, of which there are still many.

I personally find it difficult to say which side is right or wrong & which direction the country would be off going in. So I'm trying not to invest too much support in anyone as things can quickly change & re-alignments made. I mean I quite like Abhisit, he's got some good ideas and left to his own devices, I think he'd do a very decent job as PM, but I don't like some of the people he's gotten involved with nor the fact that he seemed to have sacrificed some of his ideals during his tenure as PM. Though fair to say all politicians seem to put pragmatism above ideals when they actually gain power. I certainly admired him a lot more as an opposition leader than I do now, feel he might be irrevocably tainted & doomed to be a polarizing figure at least in the foreseeable future. I also quite like some red shirts & their leaders, especially Sombat but I also have time for Thida & Dr Weng, plus a few others. I think it's clear Abhisit & some of the more forward thinking red shirts have more in common than extremists from either side. But I've got absolutely no respect for Thaksin, and with people like Panlop, Manoon & Chavalit maneuvering in the shadows the red shirts can still be used for reactionary purposes. Have to say I'm in the "not sure" camp too, keeping an open mind & not thinking dichotomously is obviously the way to go (in an ideal world of course, in reality people with a stake in things tend to choose sides). That's the problem with this conflict, people are so partisan they lost sight of right and wrong.

Emptyset - you make several good points. And it's refreshing to see a post here that isn't saturated with the anti-Red vitriol that seems to be all the rage nowadays.

Pro-Red suggestions, insinuations, not-about-Thaksin lies still seem to be the rage nowadays as well.

In an interview on the 7th this month Mrs. Thida was asked and answered:

"What about Thaksin's political future?

It's going to be tough. Look at the Constitution Court. But we will fight even if we have only bare hands."

Somehow it sounds like those 'peaceful protesters, not terrorists' with whom the army 'exchanged' gunfire. Did anyone apologized yet for the help those militant reds gave? The 60+ grenade attacks? Non-red deaths?

Anti-Red vitriol? Why, does the truth hurts so much ?

[Buchholz]

The problem with a 'movement' with too many faces is that it gets very difficult to know what to believe. One says 'bring Thaksin back', another 'I don't care about him'. Even k. Thaksin has added to the confusion by issuing contradictory statements, 'I will with draw from politics', 'I stand behind you with my family, keep on fighting', 'I want peace for all'.

So how to regard this 'red-shirt' movement? Militants, a bunch of liars, grass-root protesters, democracy lovers, people with real grieves? Probably all applies. Doesn't make it easier for non-believers though. Trying to publicly distance the movement from mistakes in the past may be a good way to win the hearts of many more people.

One thing seems clear, when people talk about 'elite' they mostly mean the other side's elite, not theirs. Unless Thailand manages to get rid of the patronage system nothing will change fundamentally. Democracy has to be earned

Don't disagree with what you say. One thing is clear, if the red shirts eyes don't open to Thaksin and some of their own leaders, well, certainly "true democracy" cannot be achieved. They also need to come up with a coherent game plan and vision for the country which they can all agree on which in turn might persuade some in the "not sure" camp, of which there are still many.

I personally find it difficult to say which side is right or wrong & which direction the country would be off going in. So I'm trying not to invest too much support in anyone as things can quickly change & re-alignments made. I mean I quite like Abhisit, he's got some good ideas and left to his own devices, I think he'd do a very decent job as PM, but I don't like some of the people he's gotten involved with nor the fact that he seemed to have sacrificed some of his ideals during his tenure as PM. Though fair to say all politicians seem to put pragmatism above ideals when they actually gain power. I certainly admired him a lot more as an opposition leader than I do now, feel he might be irrevocably tainted & doomed to be a polarizing figure at least in the foreseeable future. I also quite like some red shirts & their leaders, especially Sombat but I also have time for Thida & Dr Weng, plus a few others. I think it's clear Abhisit & some of the more forward thinking red shirts have more in common than extremists from either side. But I've got absolutely no respect for Thaksin, and with people like Panlop, Manoon & Chavalit maneuvering in the shadows the red shirts can still be used for reactionary purposes. Have to say I'm in the "not sure" camp too, keeping an open mind & not thinking dichotomously is obviously the way to go (in an ideal world of course, in reality people with a stake in things tend to choose sides). That's the problem with this conflict, people are so partisan they lost sight of right and wrong.

Emptyset - you make several good points. And it's refreshing to see a post here that isn't saturated with the anti-Red vitriol that seems to be all the rage nowadays.

I looked back at some old threads and noticed there's been an anti-Red flavor here for four years. The length of time corresponds to when they first became a violent group. For some reason, that seems to have turned people off to them.

The current Reds attempting to put forth a united face for all that is good and worthy is unachievable. As the Reds have been told, they need to sever the Thaksin strings entirely if they ever wish to achieve credibility.

Until they do so, they will never be regarded with any legitimacy.