Will Buddhism Always Be A Calling Accessible To A Few?

[rockyysdt]

I was listening to a very interesting speaker, an English Nun, who was giving a dhamma talk which included her experience on alms rounds.

She expressed gratitude with the donation of good food from very generous locals, which sustained her path and allowed her to devote herself to practice.

I then realized that such a path (Monkhood) can only ever be for the few.

The reality is that the majority of people must continue their full time specialized employment in order to keep the worlds population fed, sheltered, protected and in good health.

If everyone traded their roles for a full time path of observance of dhamma, my visions are of a civilization collapsing into chaos, mass starvation, great suffering, and large scale mortality.

Will Buddhism always be a calling accessible to a few?

In setting up the Monkhood, l think the Buddha new that to journey successfully one needed full time devotion.

How could our world sustain us if we all chose such a path?

[lungmi]

Your question follows the old prejudice concerning Theravada-Buddhism: Only a monk can attain awakening. Yes, this is the straight way, but this doesn't exclude that lay-people can attain awakening. For lay people the way to awakening is much easier with good monks.

In ancient time the monk's Sangha was the center of the village Sangha. The center was school for Buddha Teaching, Justice, Economics and Ecology, Medicine and Psychotherapy in cooperation with good lay people.

[rockyysdt]

Your question follows the old prejudice concerning Theravada-Buddhism: Only a monk can attain awakening. Yes, this is the straight way, but this doesn't exclude that lay-people can attain awakening. For lay people the way to awakening is much easier with good monks.

In ancient time the monk's Sangha was the center of the village Sangha. The center was school for Buddha Teaching, Justice, Economics and Ecology, Medicine and Psychotherapy in cooperation with good lay people.

I wasn't aware of any prejudices involved Lungmi.

A Monk, giving a Dhamma talk, indicated there were too many distractions and responsibilities in general life which would slow ones progress and time available for practice.

Although it's always been possible for lay - people to attain awakening, wouldn't a dedicated practicing Monk have far greater odds?

[camerata]

It isn't "Buddhism" that's only available to a few, it's nibbana in this life that's only attainable by a few. The many just aren't interested in putting forth the effort.

However, everyone can get the accumulated benefits of the mental cultivation that Dhamma practice entails, whether monk or layman. It's not a "succeed or fail," "nibbana or bust" situation. If you're happier today than yesterday, you're a winner. If you suffer less the day you die than you do today, it was all worth it.

[IMA_FARANG]

Wigh all due respect I think that your mistake is in assuming that Buddhisim is somehow associated only with monks, or the monastic life of retreat and isolation from the outer world.

I would suggest that there is also a "middle way", that of lay-persons who call themselves Buddhist, living in the world and practicing their life as best they can by following the policies of right speech, right action, and right understanding in their daily life.

You will also find many of these lay-persons who may have taken a vow to the Triple Gem, who spend their vacations not on a holday but on a spiritual retreat, who have some kind of shrine to honor Buddha in their house...and so on.

As to the point whether any of these lay-persons may achieve nibbna, nirvana, or enlightenment (or whatever other term you prefer to use) in their lifetime...I leave that to the "experts" on that matter.

And then, if there were a millions of these lay-persons practicing to the best of their ability and understanding, whatever they percieve and understand as "Buddhism"....would that be such a bad thing to occur.?

few

[rockyysdt]

As to the point whether any of these lay-persons may achieve nibbna, nirvana, or enlightenment (or whatever other term you prefer to use) in their lifetime...I leave that to the "experts" on that matter.

And then, if there were a millions of these lay-persons practicing to the best of their ability and understanding, whatever they percieve and understand as "Buddhism"....would that be such a bad thing to occur.?

few

Practicing as lay people, whilst retaining their role in society would be an excellent thing.

The world as we know it would continue, but there would be more harmony, peace and love.

Wigh all due respect I think that your mistake is in assuming that Buddhisim is somehow associated only with monks, or the monastic life of retreat and isolation from the outer world.

I would suggest that there is also a "middle way", that of lay-persons who call themselves Buddhist, living in the world and practicing their life as best they can by following the policies of right speech, right action, and right understanding in their daily life.

You will also find many of these lay-persons who may have taken a vow to the Triple Gem, who spend their vacations not on a holday but on a spiritual retreat, who have some kind of shrine to honor Buddha in their house...and so on.

As to the point whether any of these lay-persons may achieve nibbna, nirvana, or enlightenment (or whatever other term you prefer to use) in their lifetime...I leave that to the "experts" on that matter.

And then, if there were a millions of these lay-persons practicing to the best of their ability and understanding, whatever they percieve and understand as "Buddhism"....would that be such a bad thing to occur.?

few

The middle path is definitely the only way, but doesn't a Monk have the resources to better negotiate it?

Isn't ones path limited only by ones goals?

Is it a bad thing to live ones life with the belief one can achieve enlightenment in one lifetime?

[rockyysdt]

However, everyone can get the accumulated benefits of the mental cultivation that Dhamma practice entails, whether monk or layman. It's not a "succeed or fail," "nibbana or bust" situation. If you're happier today than yesterday, you're a winner. If you suffer less the day you die than you do today, it was all worth it.

Contemporary psychologists have latched onto the benefits of mindfulness and meditation as ways of taking control of ones life and bringing about growth, improvement and happiness.

They offer such techniques in a neutral non religious or philosophical manner.

lf you're only looking for a happier life and less suffering why take on the entire package (Buddhism), when simply practicing to live in the moment coupled with a charitable disposition will do the job?

Isn't Enlightenment our ultimate path?

PS: Nice Avatar.

Edited December 23, 2010 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

lf you're only looking for a happier life and less suffering why take on the the entire package (Buddhism), when simply practicing to live in the moment coupled with a charitable a disposition will do the job?

It doesn't do the job, unless you want just some pretty basic results, and there's no hope of transforming "less suffering" into "no suffering" (i.e. nibbana). CBT and other modern techniques don't come anywhere near the depth and breadth of the Buddha's teaching on mental cultivation. Also, ask any psychologist who is happier, a person with a spiritual element in their life or a person without. The answer is always the former.

Modern therapy techniques are aimed at making abnormal minds normal, whereas Buddhism aims to make all minds better than what we consider "normal."

[rockyysdt]

It doesn't do the job, unless you want just some pretty basic results, and there's no hope of transforming "less suffering" into "no suffering" (i.e. nibbana). CBT and other modern techniques don't come anywhere near the depth and breadth of the Buddha's teaching on mental cultivation. Also, ask any psychologist who is happier, a person with a spiritual element in their life or a person without. The answer is always the former.

Modern therapy techniques are aimed at making abnormal minds normal, whereas Buddhism aims to make all minds better than what we consider "normal."

Forget CBT Camerata.

Agreed that CBT is marginal at best..

Many psychologists are jumping onto Mindfulness & Meditation techniques, but without the religion.

I thought both you and IMA were debating the non nirvana benefit and stance.

Yes, transforming "less suffering" into "no suffering" (i.e. nibbana) requires the full kit, and my original premise that it appears to be for the few appears to still stand.

[lungmi]

A Taoist proverb says: No aspiration for ...., but prepared to find. Luang Pho Kumjon (my kalyanamitta): anakoth (future) comes alone, your duty is today. Forget awakening, rebirth, but understand what you have to do now.

Edited December 23, 2010 by lungmi

[rockyysdt]

A Taoist proverb says: No aspiration for ...., but prepared to find. Luang Pho Kumjon (my kalyanamitta): anakoth (future) comes alone, your duty is today. Forget awakening, rebirth, but understand what you have to do now.

A teacher asked about the conflict between living in the present and dealing with responsibilities in the future replied:

The two need not conflict.

Mindfulness and allowing oneself to experience living in the present is the way.

Correct planning of future responsibilities or paths is also performed in the present.

Planning can include, notes, networking with others, research and decision making.

The key is to assign a time to perform ones planning ensuring mindfulness and awareness in the present whilst this is performed

[phetaroi]

Good initial question, Rocky. I have been wondering if the pressures of modern life i Thailand is preventing many men from taking time off to become monks for a short period of times (a few weeks to 3 months, for example), and that is why so many temples are having trouble remaining open. And, what does that do to the already fragile state of Buddhism in Thailand.

[healthcaretaker]

Good initial question, Rocky. I have been wondering if the pressures of modern life i Thailand is preventing many men from taking time off to become monks for a short period of times (a few weeks to 3 months, for example), and that is why so many temples are having trouble remaining open. And, what does that do to the already fragile state of Buddhism in Thailand.

You are again WRONG.

Buddhism in Thailand has NEVER been in a fragile state. In fact, it's the extreme opposite.

We know your intentions

[healthcaretaker]

dam_n it, I am about to start such a post. TS beat me to it.

Yes, Lord Buddha created monkhood and he certainly know that not all people can be full-time monks all at the same time.

Monks are required as like teachers and moniors in a class. Without them Buddhism will be in a chaos.

He also know that not everyone can be enlighten and not everyone can reach nirvana.

This is an area I have been researching and trying combine "monkhood" with our non-monk's daily life. Not easy but I am trying. Like our moderator mentioned, as long as there is improvent everyday.

I always believe that in the future, when science proved everything "thoroughly" there will be no more religions. Everyone will eventually lie like a Buddhist.

I am trying to create that and i believe I can be a new Buddha but I know I will never be recognised as one, because of my "unfriendly" character. Other religions will simply dislike me.

[lungmi]

A Taoist proverb says: No aspiration for ...., but prepared to find. Luang Pho Kumjon (my kalyanamitta): anakoth (future) comes alone, your duty is today. Forget awakening, rebirth, but understand what you have to do now.

A teacher asked about the conflict between living in the present and dealing with responsibilities in the future replied:

The two need not conflict.

Mindfulness and allowing oneself to experience living in the present is the way.

Correct planning of future responsibilities or paths is also performed in the present.

Planning can include, notes, networking with others, research and decision making.

The key is to assign a time to perform ones planning ensuring mindfulness and awareness in the present whilst this is performed

Yes, to understand what you have to do now implicates a good planning for the days to follow. An external factor can change all your planning (anakhot comes alone) but you are ready to accept and to adjust with mindfulness.

[camerata]

Many psychologists are jumping onto Mindfulness & Meditation techniques, but without the religion.

Many Western Buddhists don't bother with the religious side of things either, but they get the benefit of the much deeper teaching (i.e. core teachings) of the Buddha. The principles of kamma and rebirth can be verified in psychological terms, so I personally wouldn't dismiss them as "religion."

I thought both you and IMA were debating the non nirvana benefit and stance.

I'm pointing out that it isn't a "nibbana or nothing" situation. Don't make nibbana a goal you have to reach. The practice itself brings a lot of (increasing) benefits, and stream-entry or other levels of enlightenment are a bonus on top. You can't say that Buddhism or nibbana is only for the few. It's for everyone. But how far they go is up to them. Most of us prefer to stay with many of our attachments because we don't feel the suffering is that bad and the genetic imperative to have a family is too great.

It's pretty obvious from the Pali Canon that the Buddha realized right after his awakening that the Dhamma was difficult to understand and few would bother with it because it goes against the normal behavioural patterns of the mind. That's why he spent so much time teaching generosity, virtue and good rebirth to the laity.

[camerata]

He also know that not everyone can be enlighten and not everyone can reach nirvana.

Where in the scriptures does the Buddha say this?

[GrahamR]

Hi

I have limited opportunities for serious practice at the moment with two small children, but I hope I can give the kids Dhamma education and give them a lead in life. Hopefully when my life is less cluttered I can practice more and at least make progress towards enlightenment in this life as lay person.

Graham

[camerata]

I think it's pretty normal for people to leave intensive practice until after the kids have grown up, but low-level practice over a long period is very beneficial. One famous monk advocates 1 minute of meditation every hour.

[phetaroi]

Good initial question, Rocky. I have been wondering if the pressures of modern life i Thailand is preventing many men from taking time off to become monks for a short period of times (a few weeks to 3 months, for example), and that is why so many temples are having trouble remaining open. And, what does that do to the already fragile state of Buddhism in Thailand.

You are again WRONG.

Buddhism in Thailand has NEVER been in a fragile state. In fact, it's the extreme opposite.

We know your intentions

No, you don't know my intentions. Get over your conspiracy thinking whenever someone says something you don't like or agree with.

About a year ago I was up at a temple just down river from Pa Mok. I had a long conversation with some Thai men who were working to renovate the temple. They said that their temple had been without monks for a couple of years, and that was true for a few other temples in the area, also. One of their strategies to lure monks back to the village temple was to renovate it.

[camerata]

They said that their temple had been without monks for a couple of years, and that was true for a few other temples in the area, also. One of their strategies to lure monks back to the village temple was to renovate it.

I can't imagine that will work, at least not unless the temple is in a convenient urban location. But on my recent trip upcountry I also saw quite a bit of temple reconstruction. There were temples full of monks, temples full of novices, and temples seemingly deserted. One thing's for sure, if a temple has a revered image, it will be popular and financially secure because of all the people visiting to make merit.

[rockyysdt]

I'm pointing out that it isn't a "nibbana or nothing" situation. Don't make nibbana a goal you have to reach. The practice itself brings a lot of (increasing) benefits, and stream-entry or other levels of enlightenment are a bonus on top. You can't say that Buddhism or nibbana is only for the few. It's for everyone. But how far they go is up to them. Most of us prefer to stay with many of our attachments because we don't feel the suffering is that bad and the genetic imperative to have a family is too great.

It's pretty obvious from the Pali Canon that the Buddha realized right after his awakening that the Dhamma was difficult to understand and few would bother with it because it goes against the normal behavioural patterns of the mind. That's why he spent so much time teaching generosity, virtue and good rebirth to the laity.

It's been indicated that the Buddha didn't want us to believe him outright but to inquire and personally experience the truth for oneself.

How can such things as re birth, stream entry, enlightenment, khamma, & nibbana be experienced without making nibbana ones goal?

Edited December 24, 2010 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

They said that their temple had been without monks for a couple of years, and that was true for a few other temples in the area, also. One of their strategies to lure monks back to the village temple was to renovate it.

I can't imagine that will work, at least not unless the temple is in a convenient urban location. But on my recent trip upcountry I also saw quite a bit of temple reconstruction. There were temples full of monks, temples full of novices, and temples seemingly deserted. One thing's for sure, if a temple has a revered image, it will be popular and financially secure because of all the people visiting to make merit.

Well, I think their purpose was twofold. First to make conditions at the temple more livable. But also to show the community would support the temple.

[sabaijai]

How could our world sustain us if we all chose such a path?

I don't think there's any danger of that happening (all of us choosing such a path).

[camerata]

It's been indicated that the Buddha didn't want us to believe him outright but to inquire and personally experience the truth for oneself.

He didn't refer to himself in the Kalama Sutta and he wasn't speaking to his own followers (meaning the implied message to his own followers was to take his teachings and test them, not to go off and investigate anything anywhere). However, we can experience the principle of re-birth and kamma ourselves in this very life and we can experience nibbana.

How can such things such as re birth, stream entry, enlightenment, khamma, & nibbana be experienced without making nibbana ones goal?

Very easily. Just follow the 8-fold path but don't hold nibbana to be a success-or-failure goal. It's the same with meditation - if you get attached to repeating a particular state, you can't do it. You have to follow the general instructions without getting attached to the goal.

[lungmi]

I'm pointing out that it isn't a "nibbana or nothing" situation. Don't make nibbana a goal you have to reach. The practice itself brings a lot of (increasing) benefits, and stream-entry or other levels of enlightenment are a bonus on top. You can't say that Buddhism or nibbana is only for the few. It's for everyone. But how far they go is up to them. Most of us prefer to stay with many of our attachments because we don't feel the suffering is that bad and the genetic imperative to have a family is too great.

It's pretty obvious from the Pali Canon that the Buddha realized right after his awakening that the Dhamma was difficult to understand and few would bother with it because it goes against the normal behavioural patterns of the mind. That's why he spent so much time teaching generosity, virtue and good rebirth to the laity.

It's been indicated that the Buddha didn't want us to believe him outright but to inquire and personally experience the truth for oneself.

How can such things such as re birth, stream entry, enlightenment, khamma, & nibbana be experienced without making nibbana ones goal?

When a baby is born, a little Buddha is born, all the potential for awakening is already inside. The intrinsic motivation to learn exists already. It's the innocence to discover the world with curiosity (Dhamma).

Sense of basic trust is one, sense of basic angst is the antagonist . More the mother and family develop the sense of basic trust. more the baby can discover the world.

It starts in the womb of the mother. I found a meditation form for pregnant mothers at the end of pregnancy. Sitting on a zazen-seat (good against back-pain ) with a Chi-Gong movement of the arms and inspiration, pronouncing "I love my baby, I take my baby to my heart". Moving down the arms and expiring: " I love my baby, I give him life." It strengthens the sense for basic trust.

Edited December 24, 2010 by lungmi