shunima Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) It's not the "prosecutors" here who should decide what's right and wrong... But, hopefully in this case, it will be a Thai criminal court judge who will decide whether the girl was wrong and if she's guilty of a legal offense. I just hope the justice system, such as it is here, has a chance to play itself out in this case. The system in Thailand is far from fair and transparent but I prefer it at any time if the alternative would be to give the "prosecuters" in this forum the power to decide what's wrong and what's right. That is what most of us hope. Thanks for pointing out the typo :-) Edited January 6, 2011 by shunima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shunima Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 There comes a time where the "you no like here, you go back" logic should make some of the posters here think. What about the Thai posters - should they go back home?? I leave it to them, as I am such a generous and humble person. Why does this smartass word comes to my mind now? Hmmmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 The whole "if you don't like it leave" comments that periodically surface here are pretty silly... If everybody everywhere who didn't like something always just left, then nothing would ever improve for anyone... My home country's not perfect... Thailand's certainly not perfect. But it's up to the people who live there -- whether or not they are of the native nationality -- to try to make it better. As non Thais, we don't get to vote and such... But at least, those of us from the West have a different perspective and awareness that can be shared with Thais in our lives... And slowly, perhaps very slowly, that might help. Justice isn't the province or right of just one country or one nationality... It's a human right we all deserve and should expect, Thais and farang alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shunima Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 The whole "if you don't like it leave" comments that periodically surface here are pretty silly... Where did you read that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totster Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 The whole "if you don't like it leave" comments that periodically surface here are pretty silly... Where did you read that? Looks like you said something along those lines.. without actually coming out and saying it straight. totster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shunima Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) The whole "if you don't like it leave" comments that periodically surface here are pretty silly... Where did you read that? Looks like you said something along those lines.. without actually coming out and saying it straight. totster oh sorry... I highlight: the "you no like here, you go back" logic should make some of the posters here think That did not include the request to move physically from a to b. I was asking for any kind of constructive participation, not this kind of keyboard-bashing we experience here since before new year.Hope that clarifies the matter. Edited January 6, 2011 by shunima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyIdea Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I wouldn't call it particularly "humane" to see the woman on TV yesterday horribly disfigured in the Santika fire, and knowing she's been able to get almost nothing in the way of financial compensation and absolutely no (at least two year later) justice in the Thai criminal justice system... I think it's reasonable to believe more progress would have been made for such a victim (and all the others) in either the civil and/or criminal fronts in the West, compared to what's occurred here.. How would you like to define "humane"? Of course the western approach is more efficient, but it is less humane today You left out my whole point, the Thai thinking is more humane the day the punishment is handed out. I did not comment on how humane anything was the day someone else did the same thing There is no difference in how humane is defined, only at what time it is considered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverdie Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Ahhh the old line, "It was an accident" never really goes down that well when certain degrees of negligence/recklessness/whatever you want to lable it, exists. The problem she has now, is the Police don't seem to share her opinion regarding it just being an accident, I wonder why that is? Again, at this time my thoughts at this time are with the families and friends of people who lost someone in this aweful incident. I hope justice prevails and that they get some closure in due course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmer Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 One post written in capital letters removed form view, Please be informed this is considered as shouting and very bad netetiquette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyIdea Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 But here in Thailand, can private parties file a criminal case without the action of police or the public prosecutor??? Short answer, yes as I have personal experience with that and was surprised also. So police can be forced to pass on also criminal charges, I wasn't sure. Thanks for that info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyIdea Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 So which Honda model was she driving, City or Civic? Depends on at what time probably She drove a Civic when she had the accident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totster Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 The whole "if you don't like it leave" comments that periodically surface here are pretty silly... Where did you read that? Looks like you said something along those lines.. without actually coming out and saying it straight. totster oh sorry... I highlight: the "you no like here, you go back" logic should make some of the posters here think That did not include the request to move physically from a to b. I was asking for any kind of constructive participation, not this kind of keyboard-bashing we experience here since before new year.Hope that clarifies the matter. I knew what kind of retort I would get You most probably had that answer already planned when you asked "where did you read that?", but I bit all the same. totster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 You left out my whole point, the Thai thinking is more humane the day the punishment is handed out. MI..sorry...I don't follow your idea here at all... What's the day/timing of it got to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 This tragic case is indicative of the morality of Thai society. Consider, this girl has had the bennefits of a superior education, gained worldly experience from overseas travel and life abroad. Adheres to the rule regulations and laws of that country. She is said to hold a Californian drivers licence, therefore should have successfully completed a theoretical and practical drivers education classes. Presumably, had experience driving in congested LA street and motorways. Then when she return to Bangkok, become as irresonsable as Thai society allows. She flaunts the law, drives illegally and in a reckless manner which results in the death of 9 people, for which she appears to show little remorse. How many farangs with all their expensive theoretical and practical drivers education, strict driving tests and superior education come here to work, live or stay as perpetual tourists and after a few years get a Thai driving license (optional) then forget all about common courtesy and decency and start to drive just like the locals, flaunting the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 So which Honda model was she driving, City or Civic? OMG... 4 threads, over 650 posts and now this question? Pay attention. The red Honda City was the third car involved in the accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyIdea Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 You left out my whole point, the Thai thinking is more humane the day the punishment is handed out. MI..sorry...I don't follow your idea here at all... What's the day/timing of it got to do with anything? We don't understand each other and I am not pulling your leg, neither are you pulling mine. This is the problem of Thais not understanding how westerners think and westerners not understanding how Thais think Westerners want to see quicker change because they value to possibly/probably improve something in the future more than they value the problems it causes to the poor guy who did something today that he shouldn't have done, that he did for a good cause though. Thais see more to today, the guy did something he shouldn't have done but he did it for a good cause. My sample is still buying a motorcycle for the 12 year old daughter so that she can go to a better school in amphur muang and get a better life Westerners value future more, Thais value present more - Timing has everything to do with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Totster - I think the problem with the norm now, is closely linked to the rise in wealth of middle classes and the increasing disparity between the rich and poor. More of the middle class are able to follow a norm normally the preserve of the 'elite' . Because of this more cases are being 'solved' using money' . As a consequence 'justice' is now becoming a commodity that can increasingly be bought. So we end up with a dual system of justice. The consequences of losing 100'000 baht to a rich family with a combined wealth of many millions, is far less severe that a 2 year jail sentence for a poor family. The punishments are not equal and for societies to be just, justice and the consequences thereof must be equal. I agree with what you have written clearly the judicial system is the preserve of the Thais, but has been very visible by the range of posts is that almost all agree that the justice system is not just in consequence. Just come off the boat have we? This is the upshot of an automobile accident. It's got nothing to do with a bloody class struggle. Justice is BECOMING a commodity that can INCREASINGLY be bought? What tripe. It's ALWAYS been the preferred way of settling personal loss here, whether it be accidental death or dismemberment. You make it sound like a new fangled indicator of moral decay. It's always been money before morals here. Wake up some of you people, especially those who have lived here for years and stop saying the girl should be punished like she rightfully would be in your home country. Look out the bloody window.... it's THAILAND <deleted>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 How many farangs with all their expensive theoretical and practical drivers education, strict driving tests and superior education come here to work, live or stay as perpetual tourists and after a few years get a Thai driving license (optional) then forget all about common courtesy and decency and start to drive just like the locals, flaunting the law? Usually the ones who consider a couple of bottles of Chang a worthy substitute for a bowl of cereal and some toast come breakfast time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Seems like a pretty short-sighted approach to me... but then again, I'm a Westerner. Maybe if whomever had the manner of thinking you describe thought a little more long-term, all those victims in this episode -- and all the others similar -- wouldn't be dead... because Thai society would have a different view of the kind of conduct in this case and how to deal with it once it's occurred. But when the police turn the other way for a quick buck, traffic laws aren't enforced and seatbelts aren't required, and the victims' families (potentially in this case or any case) settle for cash in the place of justice, that's what you'll get and continue to get... more of the same. I think I understand that pretty darned well. Westerners value future more, Thais value present more - Timing has everything to do with it Edited January 6, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Forgive me if I don't buy into your program... Or, you don't buy into it, but are just reminding everyone else that's the way it is? It's always been money before morals here. Look out the bloody window.... it's THAILAND <deleted>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 How many farangs with all their expensive theoretical and practical drivers education, strict driving tests and superior education come here to work, live or stay as perpetual tourists and after a few years get a Thai driving license (optional) then forget all about common courtesy and decency and start to drive just like the locals, flaunting the law? Usually the ones who consider a couple of bottles of Chang a worthy substitute for a bowl of cereal and some toast come breakfast time. Or the senior farang partner in a long established real estate company who side swiped me as he made an illegal move from the WRONG lane at 6pm, on his way home for dinner. On having the illegal move pointed out he replied, 'How long have you been here?' I retorted, 'Obviously not long enough to become an arrogant <deleted>.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totster Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 jf - I don't think anyone is actually disagreeing with your core points, but this is a different culture, and justice has evolved differently - and I fear this is the one Thailand is stuck with.. I can't see any way of change as it's so deep rooted, same as corruption (which are partners in this right?) totster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Well Totster... I'm surprised to hear you say that... my thinking is pretty much the same as you just said... However, the place where I depart from others here is I say...even if that's the way it is and has always been, that doesn't mean it can't change or people (Thai people) shouldn't try... Once people give up trying to do better, that's when they're really lost... I hope I'm not living in such a place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 How many farangs with all their expensive theoretical and practical drivers education, strict driving tests and superior education come here to work, live or stay as perpetual tourists and after a few years get a Thai driving license (optional) then forget all about common courtesy and decency and start to drive just like the locals, flaunting the law? Usually the ones who consider a couple of bottles of Chang a worthy substitute for a bowl of cereal and some toast come breakfast time. Or the senior farang partner in a long established real estate company who side swiped me as he made an illegal move from the WRONG lane at 6pm, on his way home for dinner. On having the illegal move pointed out he replied, 'How long have you been here?' I retorted, 'Obviously not long enough to become an arrogant <deleted>.' Words worthy of myself mate. Good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insight Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Well Totster... I'm surprised to hear you say that... my thinking is pretty much the same as you just said... However, the place where I depart from others here is I say...even if that's the way it is and has always been, that doesn't mean it can't change or people (Thai people) shouldn't try... Once people give up trying to do better, that's when they're really lost... I hope I'm not living in such a place. I have to second this. People I know find the whole idea of "this is Thailand and things will never change" ignorant, especially given the growth of the country over the past few decades and subsequent change of attitudes. Personally I find the way this girl has been treated by the online communities quite disturbing, but given that her parents will no doubt try every manoeuvre to ensure the girl and themselves will get off "scott free" (and being honest, what parent wouldn't?) and will probably have some success, it is possible to relate to some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totster Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Well Totster... I'm surprised to hear you say that... my thinking is pretty much the same as you just said... However, the place where I depart from others here is I say...even if that's the way it is and has always been, that doesn't mean it can't change or people (Thai people) shouldn't try... Once people give up trying to do better, that's when they're really lost... I hope I'm not living in such a place. I can understand your surprise, however I never said that I believed in the Thai way. But I do accept it is the the way here, and I would be a hypocrite if I didn't.. seeing as I have no problem paying the 'on the spot fine' when stopped by the police. And I also believe that as long as all parties are happy that justice as they see it has been served, then justice has been served. Our morals have nothing to do with it. Who are we to say that our evolved morals are better than another cultures ? The population here can only do better for themselves when they elect government representatives based on their policy, rather than how much money they are giving. How can things ever change if elections are won by giving a couple of hundred baht to every voter, which is gratefully accepted ? Have people given up.. don't know, but they certainly accept totster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totster Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I have to second this. People I know find the whole idea of "this is Thailand and things will never change" ignorant, especially given the growth of the country over the past few decades and subsequent change of attitudes. Personally I find the way this girl has been treated by the online communities quite disturbing, but given that her parents will no doubt try every manoeuvre to ensure the girl and themselves will get off "scott free" (and being honest, what parent wouldn't?) and will probably have some success, it is possible to relate to some degree. Insight, your opinion on the forum is one of those that I respect the most, but I don't think it is ignorant to think things will not change on a fundamental level, a change in surface attitudes maybe, but the core problems are still there. However, we do agree on one thing, the girl at the centre of this has been treated terribly.. she has unfortunately become the blame focus for all the terrible accidents over the holiday period I'm sure justice will be served, but not to our (westerners) standard. totster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Forgive me if I don't buy into your program... Or, you don't buy into it, but are just reminding everyone else that's the way it is? It's always been money before morals here. Look out the bloody window.... it's THAILAND <deleted>. My program? This accident simply amplifies how compassion plays second fiddle to 'show me the money' with responsibility, legal or otherwise a distant 5th or 6th. For my part as a temporary resident here? Just another poignant reminder that anyone can suddenly become the sh!t on a locals shoe if/when they feel suitably [insert emotion here]. There's nothing going to change in that regard. There's a lot to be said to the mai pen rai attitude... when it's to one's own benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyIdea Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Seems like a pretty short-sighted approach to me... but then again, I'm a Westerner. Maybe if whomever had the manner of thinking you describe thought a little more long-term, all those victims in this episode -- and all the others similar -- wouldn't be dead... because Thai society would have a different view of the kind of conduct in this case and how to deal with it once it's occurred. But when the police turn the other way for a quick buck, traffic laws aren't enforced and seatbelts aren't required, and the victims' families (potentially in this case or any case) settle for cash in the place of justice, that's what you'll get and continue to get... more of the same. I think I understand that pretty darned well. Westerners value future more, Thais value present more - Timing has everything to do with it I'm also a westerner, I think. My hair refuses to change colour to black anyway I have lived with Thais like a Thai speaking more Thai than English for over 10 years now so the Thai thinking comes pretty natural to me. I see positive things in both ways of seeing it Of course the western way of handling many issues are more efficient and you are absolutely right that the 9 people dying this time, and thousands of others at other times wouldn't have had to die if Thailand had implemented the western approach to this and really done something. "Development" would come quickly, I put the word within "" as I don't think there would be a change to the good is all areas, most areas perhaps but surely not all areas. Depends on values. There can never be a change only in one area, there will always be a counter reaction in another area Sure, Thais are more short-sighted. But here is something worth considering; I have improved my life considerably the last 20 years, I own my house and my car (both small), have no loans and a good job with a decent income. My poor neighbours cross the street have also improved their lives, a bit. Much less than I have and much less than they could have done if they had put more emphasis on it. But they have laughed and enjoyed life more than I have the last 20 years We only have one life so maybe I have been short-sighted, in a way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyIdea Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I have to second this. People I know find the whole idea of "this is Thailand and things will never change" ignorant, especially given the growth of the country over the past few decades and subsequent change of attitudes. Personally I find the way this girl has been treated by the online communities quite disturbing, but given that her parents will no doubt try every manoeuvre to ensure the girl and themselves will get off "scott free" (and being honest, what parent wouldn't?) and will probably have some success, it is possible to relate to some degree. Insight, your opinion on the forum is one of those that I respect the most, but I don't think it is ignorant to think things will not change on a fundamental level, a change in surface attitudes maybe, but the core problems are still there. However, we do agree on one thing, the girl at the centre of this has been treated terribly.. she has unfortunately become the blame focus for all the terrible accidents over the holiday period I'm sure justice will be served, but not to our (westerners) standard. totster Oh, things will change also on a fundamental level. they already have for a long time. It is just that it's not happening at a speed detectable to most westerners Attitudes are clearly, slowly changing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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