An Open Letter To The Red Shirts

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

An open letter to the red shirts

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Dear red shirts,

Now that tens of thousands of you have re-grouped to continue the struggle against the old order, take a few moments to consider my advice, which I hope will be useful to you and society at large.

First, be reminded that just because you believe you are the oppressed and are struggling for a more just and democratic society, you cannot necessarily justify your actions against others or make them democratic.

Take for instance the campaign launched by some of your representatives - allegedly acting on behalf of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) - to get former PM Anand Panyarachun and two privy councillors, including General Prem Tinsulanonda, prosecuted under the lese majeste law for what they purportedly said about the Crown Prince, according to WikiLeaks.

You must all be well aware that the lese majeste law is draconian and undemocratic. I know Prem is one of your arch-enemies, but first ask yourselves how crushing your enemies by using an undemocratic law would bring about a more democratic society? How then will you differ from the yellow-shirts who prefer a "good coup d' etat" as a panacea for all perceived political ills?

What you need is not just a target to be destroyed by any means, but a democratic means of solving political ills as well as a collective vision that goes beyond merely defeating your opponents. You should develop the ability to visualise what a just and democratic Thai society should look like.

There is no place for lese majeste law in a truly democratic society because citizens in a democracy should be able to express their "critical" views without fear of persecution. Your decision to use the lese majeste law to crush your enemies only makes Thailand more undemocratic.

I always feel that the reds are a bunch of people who cannot publicly and fearlessly express their political views regarding the ruling elite. So there is absolutely no need for them to instil more of this fear in others. It's tragic and ironic that the red shirts, long accused by their opponents of being anti-royalists are now resorting to using this archaic law against its opponents.

The progressive few among your rank and file should speak out against this campaign to prevent your movement from degenerating further into mere reactionary actions.

Dear red-shirt people, change for a more just and democratic society cannot be achieved if you are not willing to be introspective and review your actions.

A just and equal society is not one where people can equally use anti-democratic laws, but one that has no place for such a law.

I also wish that you would all closely scrutinise your leader, former PM Thaksin Shinawatra. The red-shirt movement will have to do more than just believe in Thaksin in order to achieve democracy. When I see calendars and New Year cards with Thaksin's image, I hope and pray that the red shirts are not simply trying to overthrown one idol for another. There is no space for idolatry in any truly democratic society.

When it comes to national leaders, politicians or other people, undeserved adoration and trust should be ruled out for the interest of society at large. This should be the nature of democratic politics.

Yours Truly,

A journalist who's often accused of being red and in bed with Thaksin.

-- The Nation 2011-01-12

[Siripon]

Without Thaksin and his money, the reds would disintegrate; and with him they're nothing more than hired hands serving his agenda.

And now the businesses at Ratchaprasong are tired of their antics.

It's a pity Sanam Luang is still closed as that would be a more suitable place for them to practise their use of the dead of last April and May for political purposes.

[Thailand]

Without Thaksin and his money, the reds would disintegrate; and with him they're nothing more than hired hands serving his agenda.

And now the businesses at Ratchaprasong are tired of their antics.

It's a pity Sanam Luang is still closed as that would be a more suitable place for them to practise their use of the dead of last April and May for political purposes.

I think you will find that the "red" movement is somewhat bigger than Thaksin. Talk to them up here, many are "red" but now feel that Thaksin is more of a hinderance than a help to their objectives.

I have said this before, but for the "reds",PT, to be a viable opposition to the incumbents they badly need a leader that has charisma and appeal and can distance themselves from Thaksin.

As for the use of draconian laws to reach objectives. Laws are laws until they are not.

[whybother]

Given that most of the censorship that the reds complain about comes about because of LM laws, it is interesting that they are attempting to use the same laws to censor others.

[Emptyset]

Given that most of the censorship that the reds complain about comes about because of LM laws, it is interesting that they are attempting to use the same laws to censor others.

Surely not to censor, as what was said has been said already, rather to subject them to the same standards as everybody else. But I agree with Pravit, it's wrong. Good letter. Especially, "When it comes to national leaders, politicians or other people, undeserved adoration and trust should be ruled out for the interest of society at large. This should be the nature of democratic politics."

Edited January 12, 2011 by Emptyset

[whybother]

Given that most of the censorship that the reds complain about comes about because of LM laws, it is interesting that they are attempting to use the same laws to censor others.

Surely not to censor, as what was said has been said already, rather to subject to the same standards as everybody else. But I agree with Pravit, it's wrong. Good letter. Especially, "When it comes to national leaders, politicians or other people, undeserved adoration and trust should be ruled out for the interest of society at large. This should be the nature of democratic politics."

To censor. That's what this law does. It stops people from discussing certain things because of the chance that you will be put in jail for a long time.

I agree that the laws should apply to everyone, but when it usually takes a complaint to apply this law, it's interesting that a group that complains about the law makes the complaint.

[junglist]

Given that most of the censorship that the reds complain about comes about because of LM laws, it is interesting that they are attempting to use the same laws to censor others.

Surely not to censor, as what was said has been said already, rather to subject to the same standards as everybody else. But I agree with Pravit, it's wrong. Good letter. Especially, "When it comes to national leaders, politicians or other people, undeserved adoration and trust should be ruled out for the interest of society at large. This should be the nature of democratic politics."

Remove the tainted heads of the Red Hydra and you have a true cry for help from people who don’t know how to move forward. A sad story of poor people being used as cannon fodder. If the red leaders truly love their people then sale off most of your land take your money out of your banks and build schools and hospitals for the poor. Become a true hero that this nation so badly needs.

[sungod]

Without Thaksin and his money, the reds would disintegrate; and with him they're nothing more than hired hands serving his agenda.

And now the businesses at Ratchaprasong are tired of their antics.

It's a pity Sanam Luang is still closed as that would be a more suitable place for them to practise their use of the dead of last April and May for political purposes.

I think you will find that the "red" movement is somewhat bigger than Thaksin. Talk to them up here, many are "red" but now feel that Thaksin is more of a hinderance than a help to their objectives.

I have said this before, but for the "reds",PT, to be a viable opposition to the incumbents they badly need a leader that has charisma and appeal and can distance themselves from Thaksin.

As for the use of draconian laws to reach objectives. Laws are laws until they are not.

I sometimes get confused if the movement is bigger than Thaksin or not.We certainly hear that but don't see much to back it up. I understnd that some of the guys at the top of the many different factions of the movement may have their own ideas and indeed he may be a hindrance to them..

However I was at the rally on Sunday (as a observer rather than a participant) and you should have seen the way all of the estimated 30,000 people cheered and clung to every word Thaksin spoke through Jataporns mobile phone that was held next to the microphone.

From what I witnessed Thaksin is still a very large part of it, especially if he continues to get idolised by Jataporn.

[Emptyset]

However I was at the rally on Sunday (as a observer rather than a participant) and you should have seen the way all of the estimated 30,000 people cheered and clung to every word Thaksin spoke through Jataporns mobile phone that was held next to the microphone.

From what I witnessed Thaksin is still a very large part of it, especially if he continues to get idolised by Jataporn.

That's the point that Sombat made. He said if Thaksin wants to speak he should get his own TV show, not appropriate that he phones in to the rally. He can accept Thaksin only as an ally, not as the leader. It actually provoked quite some debate amongst the reds. Some actually said Sombat has no right to criticize Thaksin, or the phone-in and that Sombat is getting too arrogant etc. But a lot agreed with Sombat's criticism and think Thaksin should stay out of it from now on. Speaking of Thaksin and Sombat, Pravit did an interview the other day with a left-wing red shirt:

"But can the political stance of groups like Social Move be different from the red-shirt movement? Or that of Thaksin Shinawatra, Red Sunday's Sombat Boon-ngam-anong or Somyos Prueksakasemsuk of the June 24 group?Personally speaking, although many red shirts support people like Thaksin Shinawatra, there are many red-shirt groups who have gone with Sombat. We believe that Social Move, or those who support democracy, must support elected governments. Thaksin's administrations were elected and the important thing for progressive people to bear in mind is to protect governments that are elected. Some elected governments may not be good, or misbehave and so on, but the problem must be dealt with through the electoral system. Many members in Social Move do not like Thaksin and may even criticise him but at the same time but we also recognise what Thaksin did was also beneficial to the people, more so than many other political parties over the past seven decades."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/01/09/national/Social-Move-Leftists-still-fighting-for-justice-30145979.html

Many red shirts have "gone" with Sombat who seems to be opposed to Thaksin? Does the interview indicate some red shirts acknowledge there's a split between followers of Sombat and (I'd suppose) many of the other red shirts who love Thaksin? Obviously Thaksin is way better known and far more respected and loved amongst red shirts than Sombat is, or will ever be, probably... that's the sad truth. But people can like Thaksin and still be influenced by the ideas of the more ideological red shirts and I suppose that's why many are sticking with the movement. If Jatuporn etc stop mentioning Thaksin and he doesn't phone-in, red shirts will likely move beyond him, but whilst leaders such as Jatuporn are deliberately confusing Thaksin's cause with democracy, they won't.

[Thai at Heart]

Given that most of the censorship that the reds complain about comes about because of LM laws, it is interesting that they are attempting to use the same laws to censor others.

I find it more interesting, that this story has finally risen into the Nation from absolutely nowhere.

The moment I saw it in the western news, it was obvious that it was a ticking timebomb. Obviously, all efforts to pretend that the story didn't exist have been quite successful domestically, but as they say, they truth will out. I am not sure what defence they can come up with, and it would be a very delicious irony for the reds if nothing more happens than to hang the accused toes in the fire for a while.

Fortunately or unfortunately, LM laws are written the way they are, and I am not sure that it will be possible to wriggle out of any LM accusation.

[jayjay0]

Maybe I am wrong. But it was my understanding that in a Democracy all would work for the good of all.

What action has the red shirts taken to achieve this.

What p[an do they have to achieve this. As has been said here the people want Thaksin. Even though the leaders may be a little cool to the idea. They have a different agenda than the people they use. And if Thacksin was to come back they know full well that they would not be able to get there nose in the trough. There minds work like his power is all that counts and if he was here there would be none left over.

[Bagwan]

If Sombat thinks that he can work with Thaksin as an ally he should remember that those who sup with the devil had best make sure that they use a very long spoon.

Quote - A journalist who's often accused of being red and in bed with Thaksin. Unquote.

I understand that Thaksin is already well served in that area. He has 'nieces'.

[Steely Dan]

Pheu Thai have approved Yingluck (Thaksin's sister)to be their next leader, which should tell you everything you need to know about the true political agenda of the Red shirts. They want their 'turn' at democracy, which merely means having their own paternal despot at the helm, which is nothing to do with social justice at all.

[rubl]

begin removed ...

Many red shirts have "gone" with Sombat who seems to be opposed to Thaksin? Does the interview indicate some red shirts acknowledge there's a split between followers of Sombat and (I'd suppose) many of the other red shirts who love Thaksin? Obviously Thaksin is way better known and far more respected and loved amongst red shirts than Sombat is, or will ever be, probably... that's the sad truth. But people can like Thaksin and still be influenced by the ideas of the more ideological red shirts and I suppose that's why many are sticking with the movement. If Jatuporn etc stop mentioning Thaksin and he doesn't phone-in, red shirts will likely move beyond him, but whilst leaders such as Jatuporn are deliberately confusing Thaksin's cause with democracy, they won't.

Just for the fun of it read the Ratchaprasong News:

https://<URL Automatically Removed>/2011/01/11/note-rajprasong-new-asked-about-red-shirts-leader-sombat-criticizing-taksins-phone-in-generated-a-massive-debate/

(eedit: add: do you want to suggest that k. Jatuporn should withdraw from public, red-shirt life?)

Edited January 12, 2011 by rubl

[SomTumTiger]

Given the juvenile way that most Thais act (including their reporters), i think the LM law still makes sense. When you become an adult, you get treated like an adult.

Edited January 12, 2011 by SomTumTiger

[Buchholz]

However I was at the rally on Sunday (as a observer rather than a participant) and you should have seen the way all of the estimated 30,000 people cheered and clung to every word Thaksin spoke through Jataporns mobile phone that was held next to the microphone.

From what I witnessed Thaksin is still a very large part of it, especially if he continues to get idolised by Jataporn.

That's the point that Sombat made. He said if Thaksin wants to speak he should get his own TV show, not appropriate that he phones in to the rally. He can accept Thaksin only as an ally, not as the leader. It actually provoked quite some debate amongst the reds. Some actually said Sombat has no right to criticize Thaksin, or the phone-in and that Sombat is getting too arrogant etc. But a lot agreed with Sombat's criticism and think Thaksin should stay out of it from now on. Speaking of Thaksin and Sombat, Pravit did an interview the other day with a left-wing red shirt:

"But can the political stance of groups like Social Move be different from the red-shirt movement? Or that of Thaksin Shinawatra, Red Sunday's Sombat Boon-ngam-anong or Somyos Prueksakasemsuk of the June 24 group?Personally speaking, although many red shirts support people like Thaksin Shinawatra, there are many red-shirt groups who have gone with Sombat. We believe that Social Move, or those who support democracy, must support elected governments. Thaksin's administrations were elected and the important thing for progressive people to bear in mind is to protect governments that are elected. Some elected governments may not be good, or misbehave and so on, but the problem must be dealt with through the electoral system. Many members in Social Move do not like Thaksin and may even criticise him but at the same time but we also recognise what Thaksin did was also beneficial to the people, more so than many other political parties over the past seven decades."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/01/09/national/Social-Move-Leftists-still-fighting-for-justice-30145979.html

Many red shirts have "gone" with Sombat who seems to be opposed to Thaksin? Does the interview indicate some red shirts acknowledge there's a split between followers of Sombat and (I'd suppose) many of the other red shirts who love Thaksin? Obviously Thaksin is way better known and far more respected and loved amongst red shirts than Sombat is, or will ever be, probably... that's the sad truth. But people can like Thaksin and still be influenced by the ideas of the more ideological red shirts and I suppose that's why many are sticking with the movement. If Jatuporn etc stop mentioning Thaksin and he doesn't phone-in, red shirts will likely move beyond him, but whilst leaders such as Jatuporn are deliberately confusing Thaksin's cause with democracy, they won't.

Also from the interview:

Q: In reality, what percentage of red shirts are actually leftist?

A: Not many

I love when people talk about many Reds leaving Thaksin or that many Reds are going with Sombat... when the evidence is to the contrary.

Here, we have a relatively unknown (Saowalux) attempting to prop up the influence of another relatively unknown (Sombat) in order to attempt to diminish the overwhelming control of a very well known (Thaksin).

Sorry, it just doesn't wash...

A representative of the " but..but...it's not about Thaksin " contingent...

An anti-government demonstrator wearing a mask for ousted Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra gathers with others Sunday, Jan. 9, 2011, in Bangkok.

Associated Press

[Buchholz]

I am not sure what defence they can come up with

Easy. It's all second-hand hearsay.

[givenall]

Without Thaksin and his money, the reds would disintegrate; and with him they're nothing more than hired hands serving his agenda.

And now the businesses at Ratchaprasong are tired of their antics.

It's a pity Sanam Luang is still closed as that would be a more suitable place for them to practise their use of the dead of last April and May for political purposes.

I totally agree. It is not about democracy. It is all about pays day. If there were no daily money distribution, there will be no demonstration.

I wish we as foreigners familiar to democracy could teach the way to store a real democracy, but it may take a long time since it is really driven by $$$$$$$$$$$$

[Emptyset]

Just for the fun of it read the Ratchaprasong News:

https://thaiintellig...massive-debate/

(eedit: add: do you want to suggest that k. Jatuporn should withdraw from public, red-shirt life?)

Interesting discussion. I think it'd be better for red shirts (though they might not know it) if Jatuporn was jailed right now. He tends to discredit them whenever he opens his mouth. Plus I don't see how he could continue his role as MP and as a red leader. I think he needs to choose between them. Anyway, I've always had a low opinion of Jatuporn. So personally I wish he'd withdraw from red shirt life, yes. But it's not up to me, unfortunately. I tried installing myself as UDD supreme leader by wearing a red t-shirt and making a statement against the amaat and putting it on youtube, but I've no followers as yet...

[Bagwan]

All these factions and political parties that I can't keep up with them. Have the Tooting Popular Front entered the fray yet? Wolfie, fame beckons?

[Thai at Heart]

I am not sure what defence they can come up with

Easy. It's all second-hand hearsay.

Possible. Would make for a very interesting case.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

By Pravit Rojanaphruk - The Nation

First, be reminded that just because you believe you are the oppressed and are struggling for a more just and democratic society, you cannot necessarily justify your actions against others or make them democratic.

...first ask yourselves how crushing your enemies by using an undemocratic law would bring about a more democratic society?

What you need is not just a target to be destroyed by any means, but a democratic means of solving political ills as well as a collective vision that goes beyond merely defeating your opponents. You should develop the ability to visualise what a just and democratic Thai society should look like.

Dear red-shirt people, change for a more just and democratic society cannot be achieved if you are not willing to be introspective and review your actions.

A just and equal society is not one where people can equally use anti-democratic laws, but one that has no place for such a law.

I also wish that you would all closely scrutinise your leader, former PM Thaksin Shinawatra. There is no space for idolatry in any truly democratic society.

Yours Truly,

A journalist who's often accused of being red and in bed with Thaksin.

I'm typing in shock.

In a vacuum, the kind of OpEd that will bring Thailand out of the darkness and into the light.

But from a source that is guilty of so much of the hypocritical "there is no wrongs possible in fighting a wrong" kind of thinking?

I don't know what to make of this.

The idealist in me hopes against hope Pravit will become a standard-bearer affixed atop the moral high ground, a heroic voice Thailand can be proud of. The cynic in me fears it's just more of the same "don't do exactly what I do, that's unacceptable" from Pravit.

God but I do hope idealism wins out. Come good Pravit. One time...

I wish we as foreigners familiar to democracy could teach the way to store a real democracy, but it may take a long time since it is really driven by $$$

Hmm. Let's be careful of pretending that our democracies are picturesque examples of representative, egalitarian societies where personal liberty is held sacrosanct. Because that would be a ludicrous lie.

We have some positive things we can hopefully share with a fledgling democracy like Thailand. But it's just as important we don't lose their respect by pretending our democratic systems aren't chock-a-block full of inequalities, contradictions, double standards and hypocrisies as well.

Because if you try to sell that nonsense to Thais, they will laugh at you and your (valid) arguments will then be dismissed. They are well aware of the imperfections in our democracies. Any pretence otherwise will be met with derision and will be counter-productive.

If you think there's a democracy on the planet which isn't driven by $$$, you are living in an unfortunate delusion my friend.

Edited January 12, 2011 by TheyCallmeScooter

[Buchholz]

I am not sure what defence they can come up with

Easy. It's all second-hand hearsay.

Possible. Would make for a very interesting case.

Most likely closed... and very brief.

A simple request for proof as in, "Prove I said what he said I said," would end it.

Like Elvis, Eric Johns has left the building.

[asiawatcher]

The LM laws are archaic yes. They do serve a purpose in keeping mouths and pens under control. Then now we have a message to the Reds, what really are your solid plans, your goals and what are your policies and do you have a credible leader? But I'm sure I know the answer to that!

[phetaroi]

I think you will find that the "red" movement is somewhat bigger than Thaksin. Talk to them up here, many are "red" but now feel that Thaksin is more of a hinderance than a help to their objectives.

I have said this before, but for the "reds",PT, to be a viable opposition to the incumbents they badly need a leader that has charisma and appeal and can distance themselves from Thaksin.

As for the use of draconian laws to reach objectives. Laws are laws until they are not.

Yet they cling to Thaksin. There is hardly an article about the Red Shirt movement that does not revolve around Thaksin. One article will claim that Thaksin is no longer pulling the strings. The next article will tell who he will or won't support as the head of the Red Shirts or as the next PM.

And yes, laws are laws until they are not. But you cannot do what you preach against simply to gain power, and then expect to be credible. The Red Shirt position has always been, "Elections are democratic IF we win."

[phetaroi]

Remove the tainted heads of the Red Hydra and you have a true cry for help from people who don’t know how to move forward.

There's some truth to what you say, but even people who "don't know how to move forward" know basic right from wrong. And the events of May 19 were wrong. Period.

[Piengrudee]

Is discussion of lese majeste law allowed?

[whybother]

Is discussion of lese majeste law allowed?

No. We are all breaking the law. Even you for asking the question.

[phetaroi]

Hmm. Let's be careful of pretending that our democracies are picturesque examples of representative, egalitarian societies where personal liberty is held sacrosanct. Because that would be a ludicrous lie.

We have some positive things we can hopefully share with a fledgling democracy like Thailand. But it's just as important we don't lose their respect by pretending our democratic systems aren't chock-a-block full of inequalities, contradictions, double standards and hypocrisies as well.

Because if you try to sell that nonsense to Thais, they will laugh at you and your (valid) arguments will then be dismissed. They are well aware of the imperfections in our democracies. Any pretence otherwise will be met with derision and will be counter-productive.

If you think there's a democracy on the planet which isn't driven by $$$, you are living in an unfortunate delusion my friend.

I have to disagree with you on several counts, although you are correct that our democracies are not picturesque example of representative, egalitarian societies where personal liberty is held sacrosanct. Where I begin to disagree, however, is that it's a "ludicrous lie". I'd say it's an unfulfilled promise that is long overdue. I'd say are western democracies are highly imperfect, but I don't see a governmental alternative out there that is better.

Now, as far as "trying to sell that nonsense to Thais", a couple of points. First, before we could try to sell those concepts to Thais, they'd have to able to grasp the concepts. Even the dozen or so Thai families I used to know here in the States always said something along the lines of, "We had no idea what America was like before we got here. We want to go back to Thailand"...although nothing was stopping them from doing so, and they never did. For a long time, Thais I would meet in Thailand, when I would say my mother lived in Florida would say either, "Oh, Disneyworld", or "Oh, space shuttle." I also had different Thai people at different times ask me: "Are the streets in America paved with gold?", "Doesn't everyone in America have AIDs?", and "Don't all people in America own guns?" So I reject your premise that very many Thais are going to debate with you or me the concepts of democracy, representative government, egalitarian societies, the balance between personal liberty and personal responsibility, or even the word sacrosanct. We're more likely to get back the response, "You tink too mutt." I doubt that even 5% of the Thai Red Shirts I watched driving around Bangkok in their caravans in the weeks leading up to May 19 could have discussed any of those topics. Nor could those Red Shirts who committed arson to 31 buildings. About all they could tell me -- and I did talk with a few -- was that their lives were unfair and that they loved Thaksin.

I'll tell you the difference between the writer of the original editorial of this thread and the VAST MAJORITY of Red Shirts -- he discussed principles...not just used a word. He was not a parrot.

[rixalex]

I think you will find that the "red" movement is somewhat bigger than Thaksin. Talk to them up here, many are "red" but now feel that Thaksin is more of a hinderance than a help to their objectives.

I have said this before, but for the "reds",PT, to be a viable opposition to the incumbents they badly need a leader that has charisma and appeal and can distance themselves from Thaksin.

As for the use of draconian laws to reach objectives. Laws are laws until they are not.

Reds who truly don't wish to be affiliated with Thaksin, don't need to distance themselves from him - something more drastic is needed - first renounce membership of the movement they are a part, the movement that Thaksin created and that remains set on aiding his return to power, and doing little else. Then, start their own movement, with their own set of ideals and goals. A fresh start. It's what i think anyone who genuinely did oppose Thaksin would have done a long time ago. Why haven't they? Probably because they aren't genuinely opposed to Thaksin, they simply accept that fighting from his corner has become too tough - much like Thaksin's supporters on Thaivisa who have also gradually moved away from defending him to defending the "broad red aims", as they would have us believe them to be. One only has to search posts of the board's current red sympathisers a year or so back to notice the shift in standpoint.