Ulysses G. Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) Off topic a little bit, but my daughter is learning English and gets told off if she speaks pidgeon english and then farangs come round and speak pidgeon English to her . Actually no one is speaking pidgeon English to your daughter...Pidgeon is a recognised dialect of English and its most certainly not spoken in Thailand to my knowlege Really? A pidgin (pronounced /ˈpɪdʒɪn/) language is a simplified language that develops as a means of communication between two or more groups that do not have a language in common. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups).Fundamentally, a pidgin is a simplified means of linguistic communication, as is constructed impromptu, or by convention, between groups of people. A pidgin is not the native language of any speech community, but is instead learned as a second language.[1][2] A pidgin may be built from words, sounds, or body language from multiple other languages and cultures. Pidgins usually have low prestige with respect to other languages.[3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin Edited January 16, 2011 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverdie Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 deejah i keep thinking your writing a poem the way you set your words out now back on topic please. Please accept that he may be learning to construct sentences. I can't come up with any other reasonable reason why he would be writing like that. I am sure deejah's command of Thai language is equally as impressive & that may be one of the reasons why the Thais like to yell at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverdie Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 However, I think the topic is rather tenuous. Amoungst other things . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I am sure deejah's command of Thai language is equally as impressive & that may be one of the reasons why the Thais like to yell at him. Are you trying to say that it might not all be the Thai's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgore Trout Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Off topic a little bit, but my daughter is learning English and gets told off if she speaks pidgeon english and then farangs come round and speak pidgeon English to her . Actually no one is speaking pidgeon English to your daughter...Pidgeon is a recognised dialect of English and its most certainly not spoken in Thailand to my knowlege Personnally I think the better term would be "baby" English and depending on how old your daughter is, it may be appropriate.. Nothing annoys me more than foreigners speaking Thai to my boys. It's so stupid. firstly their Thais is probably shit and secondly there are 65 million other people in this country who can do it a lot better than them. Don't try to impress me with your pidgeon Thai. My kids need all the English they can get living where they are surrounded by Thais. If anyone spoke English to my son, he would probably ignore them. Even I speak Thai to my son. Only Thai is used in my household. Different situations require different approaches. BTW, no idea what the OP is waffling on about. If you only speak Thai to your son you are doing him an incredible disservice and negating many future opportunities he may have. I suggest you study up on language acquisition and bi-lingual households. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgore Trout Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 There's a difference between fluency and speaking correctly. Many Thais ( if they work in tourist areas ) are what I would call fluent in English in that they can make themselves understood very well, speak quickly and understand very well but grammatically they are very poor. Then you will get other people who have studied English at university but they just can't speak it. Well they havent really studied English then at university if they can't speak it or any other languge for that matter. Imagine someone spending 3 or 4 year at a university in Europe/US studying a degree in say Chinese, getting the degree in the language and then saying they cant speak the languge to at least a reasonable standard...once would question the worth of the degree.... What is use is understanding the "grammar" of a languge and one cant communicate verbally in said language, one could understand the reverse situation after 4 years at University someone could speak the languge pretty well, but still had difficulties with "grammatical" and written aspects of a language. How to really confuse somebody learning English ?....teach them grammar... ....I hazard a guess, very few of us who are speak first languge English remember our "grammar" lessons from school or even understand half the rules...We dont and for the most part dont really care its enough we can make ourselves understood both verbally and in writing To me someone is "fluent" in a languge if they can make themselves understood in a particular languge, as to speaking correctly, what is speaking English correctly....American English, Queens English or Cockney etc ? It depends what university you want to get into, in that aspect I think how you speak is quite important; most universities have a written interview (essay oriented) as well as in person spoken interviews. How you express yourself and carry yourself is very important in both arenas. For those of you who are uneducated (judging by the posts I would say quite a few) I wouldn't worry about it and I'm sure your choice of partner (her background) mixed with yours will not create a child worthy of a post-graduate education so you might as well let them speak any way you want.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyrobert Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Deejah: The way you write is quite disturbing to one's very psyche. It is the literary equivalent of heavy metal music from a group that has never had a practice session. Now I have an idea of what it would be like to do acid, but with the benefit of no flashbacks. (I hope there won't be any, anyway!) Perhaps that is why the thread is going nowhere? But I really, really like your Avatar! Edited January 17, 2011 by happyrobert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nidan Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Many (but not all) writers in this thread seem to have secret agenda. Why would kids think less of anyone if they want to practice their newly acquired language with them...amongst other things. I speak a number of languages at varying skill levels, from survival to fluent...from many different parts of the world. Just because some native speakers sometimes make mistakes or errors (not the same thing, BTW) in their own mother tongues does not take away their right to complain about language misuse....not that I am saying there has been any deliberate misuse. There seem to be many language snobs in this thread. I am also a trained and qualified TEFL teacher although I do not earn my living doing that anymore... May I suggest everyone lighten up a bit...it's good for the health, so they tell me Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocturn Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Off topic a little bit, but my daughter is learning English and gets told off if she speaks pidgeon english and then farangs come round and speak pidgeon English to her . there is no excuse for pidgin English, it only shows the speaker up as a simpleton. Similarly, there is no occasion to use poorly transliterated Thai on these forums (fora). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nidan Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Using a pidgen language originally was an attempt by the user to simplify a language to an absolute minimum of grammer, oft times void of tenses and other possibly confusing terms. To use pidgen to children attempting to learn a language would be inappropriate, agreed, but the intention might be to make it easy for the listener. This can often be looked upon as patronising in some cases. Rather than jumping down the throat of the offender it might just be more beneficial to suggest that they just try to speak normal English. To assert that it is the sign of a simpleton would be incorrect...there is no causal link between being a simpleton..and unintentionally using inappropriate language. As far as the child's language development is concerned, as long as they are exposed to the languages of interest, either together or seperately...as soon as the child really needs to learn the language, in the country of that language, they should readily understand and pick up the target language quite rapidly. My parents spoke Yiddish between themselves when my brother and I were kids so that we would not understand them. Well, i can't really speak it now...but i ssure can understand most of it. And I know if I did decide to study it seriously, I would pick it up extremely quickly. BTW why is asking "cheu arai" so wrong?...to ask a kids name is 'wrong" OR there is something wrong with the Thai itself? Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 When l go to play snooker, we have to have a private room to play cos the main table area is like being at a foot ball match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennyG Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I love how some expats cringe at the silliest things. Yes I am a newbie, but at the irish pub in Saladeng last week and this guy was complaining to me about the Thai language, he has been here for 17 years and cant speak a word of it. The things he was saying was just silly lol but he genuinely looked very annoyed and he wanted to leave because of it. I have meet some very odd characters in Bangkok, I hope I never turn into one of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bermondburi Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Off topic a little bit, but my daughter is learning English and gets told off if she speaks pidgeon english and then farangs come round and speak pidgeon English to her . My theory was/is i talk English & English only to my little one from day dot, & Mum talks Thai & Thai only to her.. Of course little one here's her Mum talking English to me ( that is when she talks to me, which isn't very much to be honest ) but in doing that littl elearns to differenciate between the 2 Languages immediately and as soon as she started to talk etc.. Same goes for Books, same Book for 2 nights, me one night, her Mum the next.. The difference between her command of BOTH Lnaguage at 4 Years old to some of my Pal's Kid's is incredible, hoenstly.. & i will not tolerate any one of my Pals talking that tripe to her, forget it, it ell them to shut up immediately & generaly humiliate them when i do so, so they won't do it again neither.... good man, apparently babies can differentiate between the two languages at five months in the womb, so there is no excuse for not speaking your own language. Don't know how they know that though !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgore Trout Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Off topic a little bit, but my daughter is learning English and gets told off if she speaks pidgeon english and then farangs come round and speak pidgeon English to her . My theory was/is i talk English & English only to my little one from day dot, & Mum talks Thai & Thai only to her.. Of course little one here's her Mum talking English to me ( that is when she talks to me, which isn't very much to be honest ) but in doing that littl elearns to differenciate between the 2 Languages immediately and as soon as she started to talk etc.. Same goes for Books, same Book for 2 nights, me one night, her Mum the next.. The difference between her command of BOTH Lnaguage at 4 Years old to some of my Pal's Kid's is incredible, hoenstly.. & i will not tolerate any one of my Pals talking that tripe to her, forget it, it ell them to shut up immediately & generaly humiliate them when i do so, so they won't do it again neither.... good man, apparently babies can differentiate between the two languages at five months in the womb, so there is no excuse for not speaking your own language. Don't know how they know that though !! MSING has the right idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJIC Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) I'm another one who can't quite work out the Isaan connection. My guess is that the thread is really about the limited English picked up by people from the NE working in low-paid service jobs in tourist resorts. Of course, there are plenty of well-educated professionals from the NE who can speak pretty good English. My guess though is that those who haven't shaken off their NE accents may have more trouble with certain English language sounds than central Thais. The 'r' sound is one obvious example, and I fancy that there may be problems with 'ch' and 'th'. What do other people think? [/quot Cancelled Double Post. Edited January 17, 2011 by MAJIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 there is no excuse for pidgin English, it only shows the speaker up as a simpleton. That would be a great phrase for a T-shirt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverdie Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I am sure deejah's command of Thai language is equally as impressive & that may be one of the reasons why the Thais like to yell at him. Are you trying to say that it might not all be the Thai's fault. Yes, I the last of the apologists. I guess this all comes down to what part of the land of los you most frequent. I lived for some time on the big farm with only thais and I didnt hear any bad english OR any english for that matter......just my bad thai & the odd confused look especially when i did things like ask for a plate of white or a bucket of shit....etc etc etc :jap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejah Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 here is my thread on pidgin English http://www.thaivisa...._1#entry4130767 it would have been great to hear form you folks on that thread (where were you?) where i am sure many of you would be happy to slam me for condoning it!!! sorry about this thread kind if a mess BUT if you are able to read ALL of MY posts on this thread (i have given up on responded to those who haven't ) you will have a much better idea of the evolution of the idea and might be less likely to slam me, here but i am sure that wont stop some of YOUS cheers happy posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nidan Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 there is no excuse for pidgin English, it only shows the speaker up as a simpleton. That would be a great phrase for a T-shirt! Except that it would be wrong. 'pidgin' languages exist all over the owrld...Thailand farangs and thais do not have a monopoly on it...and it's use as a means of of international commerce, trade and communication over probably thousands of years is well established. surely they were not all simpletons....Seems to be a lot of language snobs around. And if someone wants to practice their 'not very good Thai' with your kids...i cannot see the big problem...to class it as a load of tripe i think would be unfair. Still, they're your kids ...and it's up to you...but dare i suggest that i think perhaps you are being a tad overprotective. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bermondburi Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 there is no excuse for pidgin English, it only shows the speaker up as a simpleton. That would be a great phrase for a T-shirt! Except that it would be wrong. 'pidgin' languages exist all over the owrld...Thailand farangs and thais do not have a monopoly on it...and it's use as a means of of international commerce, trade and communication over probably thousands of years is well established. surely they were not all simpletons....Seems to be a lot of language snobs around. And if someone wants to practice their 'not very good Thai' with your kids...i cannot see the big problem...to class it as a load of tripe i think would be unfair. Still, they're your kids ...and it's up to you...but dare i suggest that i think perhaps you are being a tad overprotective. Daniel Do you have kids here ? It is not so much people speaking their ' not very good Thai ' that is the problem ( although they do sound stupid ) but more the fact that they aren't speaking English. I can't vouch for other people but where I live in Nonthaburi in my estate of 1000 houses there is one other foreigner that I am in contact with. Not many foreigners around here really. There is a compete lack of English speaking people around as there is in most parts of Thailand. My kids are surrounded by Thai everywhere they go, on TV , in the street, in the supermarket. Apart from at school I am the sole English voice that they get. No one in my wife's family speaks any English apart form the most basic words that they have learned since the children were born. Words like toilet or banana. Me against 65 million Thais, so I am constantly trying to get English across to them. Making them repeat something in English if they say it in Thai, forcing them to speak English. If other people knew how tiring all this gets then maybe they would see how it might be good for my kids to see that someone other than Daddy does actually speak this funny language that no one else speaks. I would say to someone that if they want to practice their Thai then why can't they go and practice with a Thai kid. It's not like there aren't enough to go round. It is a constant battle to force my kids to speak English and a little help would always be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgore Trout Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 there is no excuse for pidgin English, it only shows the speaker up as a simpleton. That would be a great phrase for a T-shirt! Except that it would be wrong. 'pidgin' languages exist all over the owrld...Thailand farangs and thais do not have a monopoly on it...and it's use as a means of of international commerce, trade and communication over probably thousands of years is well established. surely they were not all simpletons....Seems to be a lot of language snobs around. And if someone wants to practice their 'not very good Thai' with your kids...i cannot see the big problem...to class it as a load of tripe i think would be unfair. Still, they're your kids ...and it's up to you...but dare i suggest that i think perhaps you are being a tad overprotective. Daniel Do you have kids here ? It is not so much people speaking their ' not very good Thai ' that is the problem ( although they do sound stupid ) but more the fact that they aren't speaking English. I can't vouch for other people but where I live in Nonthaburi in my estate of 1000 houses there is one other foreigner that I am in contact with. Not many foreigners around here really. There is a compete lack of English speaking people around as there is in most parts of Thailand. My kids are surrounded by Thai everywhere they go, on TV , in the street, in the supermarket. Apart from at school I am the sole English voice that they get. No one in my wife's family speaks any English apart form the most basic words that they have learned since the children were born. Words like toilet or banana. Me against 65 million Thais, so I am constantly trying to get English across to them. Making them repeat something in English if they say it in Thai, forcing them to speak English. If other people knew how tiring all this gets then maybe they would see how it might be good for my kids to see that someone other than Daddy does actually speak this funny language that no one else speaks. I would say to someone that if they want to practice their Thai then why can't they go and practice with a Thai kid. It's not like there aren't enough to go round. It is a constant battle to force my kids to speak English and a little help would always be appreciated. Don't worry, your efforts will pay off in the long run. I have seen mixed kids grow up without someone like you reinforcing English with them and it is not good. They know something is missing. Keep it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saraburioz Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Off topic a little bit, but my daughter is learning English and gets told off if she speaks pidgeon english and then farangs come round and speak pidgeon English to her . you are right it is not about that in fact these people speak english pretty darn well and they let you know it!!! it is the attitude the tone in fact i think it is suppose to be irritating not sure how yet to explain it without telling who i know who does it the most i will tell you that it is not the educated bangkok thais for the most part Before you start complaining about Thais trying to learrn English, maybe you should learn how to write English. Writing is much easier than speaking. There's even programs on the computer to teach you how if you never went to school. will add some more to that if i may ian...how is your thai deejah?.. i know of many falangs who stay in thailand for many many years who can just about say khap khoon khap in thai Why are so many people so nitty picky about pigeon english at least they are trying to learn english. It could be a lot worse they could be speaking pigeon welsh,,,,then you would all be in trouble Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black! How long have you been learning Thai? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Not calling any kettle black. Been coming to Thailand for holidays for about 12 years,then decided to move here on a permanent basis 4 years ago. And i have been trying to learn Thai for the last 3 years now i admit i am not fluent in speaking Thai ,but i can speak good Thai good enough so i can hold my own in any conversation when around the thai family or Thai friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmax Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 what exactly are u on about ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 what exactly are u on about ? Answering a question from another OP..!! Have you read any of the posts..then you would have some understanding of what i am on about.!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennyG Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I have only been here a short time and I can almost hold my own in Thai. Thai is really not that hard when you actually try and not bitch about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I haven't read all of the posts in this topic, but what I believe the Op may be alluding to is a certain grating slightly aggressive tone taken up by the majority of a certain demographic..... I don't believe it's any accent of one kind, rather it appears to be an attempt towards assertiveness but comes across as 'whoreish'... this tone then adapts a more 'aggressive and grating' slant when used with engrish... It's one of the first lines of defense in 'slapper recognition' !!! In a very similar way fella's... Careful where or from whom you have learnt your Thai !!!! (There was a thread on this a while back). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpoint Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I have only been here a short time and I can almost hold my own in Thai. Once you've been here longer you'll realise that you can pay someone to hold it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpoint Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 actually its my tern. pidgin is a linguistic term; pigeon is an aviary term... bina israel But you'll find that the Thai army do speak pigeon. Coup coup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejah Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) I haven't read all of the posts in this topic, but what I believe the Op may be alluding to is a certain grating slightly aggressive tone taken up by the majority of a certain demographic..... I don't believe it's any accent of one kind, rather it appears to be an attempt towards assertiveness but comes across as 'whoreish'... this tone then adapts a more 'aggressive and grating' slant when used with engrish... It's one of the first lines of defense in 'slapper recognition' !!! In a very similar way fella's... Careful where or from whom you have learnt your Thai !!!! (There was a thread on this a while back). RC very astute thanks for dropping in do have a look at some of MY other posts on this thread i try to get more clear and more positive i also tried to change the name of the thread it was about when some thais speak englsih (even when some farang speak english it can have the same effect if not worse ) this was not about when thais speak thai (though it could apply) or about their english ability i think you understand and know much of this and i am pretty much over it now and yes i do speak issan thai and it sounds dreadful i embarrass myself the only thing i know to do is bring the whole thing down about 5 nothces and say krap a lot!!!! :jap: ps i also pood pidgin pigeon and PIG ON English at times to thais their pets and myself Edited January 19, 2011 by deejah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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