Returned Tourist Curiousities

[nthfarangtourist]

I'll be brief:

I just returned from my first trip to Thailand, having had the pleasure of hitting Pattaya pretty hard (as well as other generic guidebook haunts like Patpong/Th Khao San, Patong and Koh Phangan). Beautiful country, lovely people and I'm definitely having trouble recovering from the holiday - clearly I need to improve reality to be happier on return to it.

Anyway, I want to better understand my Pattaya experience (the Thai culture and systems at play) with some private (PM) discussion with anyone who knows the ropes - having read the terms of registration, the info I'm looking for is not publically discussable. I've done a bit of googling but haven't found the detail I'm looking for.

So, let me know if you're up for a fairly run of the mill Pattaya story and some questions about it.

If this thread is too rubbish to dignify, I won't hold it's removal against anyone.

[StreetCowboy]

Sorry - I thought this was going to be about the Elgin Marbles.

Easily misplaced, marbles...

SC

[phaethon]

The most common tourist curiosities returned from Pattaya simply require a course of antibiotics...

[manarak]

if you search a bit, you will find forums where your questions fit in the public access forum.

[p_brownstone]

Nothing you experienced in Pattaya has anything to do with Thai Culture.

Patrick

[SteeleJoe]

Nothing you experienced in Pattaya has anything to do with Thai Culture.

Patrick

That statement reminds me of how (conservative) Thais are always talking about this and that not being Thai culture (sexy clothing, premarital sex, etc) -- methinks you are making the same mistake they do: "culture" is not a static thing. it evolves constantly (no less here than in the west, where sexy attire, premarital sex, etc were once not part of the culture) If Thais are doing it in large numbers and its widely (if not universally) accepted by them, then it is Thai culture.

Obviously there are many aspects of Pattaya which could (and should) be described as elements of a subculture and which are not typical of Thailand as a whole, but the fact remains -- Pattaya is the way it is because it's in Thailand. if it were somewhere else, it wouldn't be quite like that.

CULTURE: the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people

In other words, Thai culture isn't all about Thai dancing and wais -- don't be confused between culture and (ancient) traditions.

Edited January 16, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

And I hope you aren't one of those fools who thinks the sex trade or drugs and so on are evil western innovations brought here by foreigners. (Heard it many times before and had a poster say so the other day -- blew me away).

[Travel2003]

if you search a bit, you will find forums where your questions fit in the public access forum.

OP talks about the Thai culture and systems at play, but he wanted something "special" which can not be discussed in public here.

So I guess a search would not do it.

[manarak]

if you search a bit, you will find forums where your questions fit in the public access forum.

OP talks about the Thai culture and systems at play, but he wanted something "special" which can not be discussed in public here.

So I guess a search would not do it.

a search on GOOGLE, sherlock.

[Travel2003]

if you search a bit, you will find forums where your questions fit in the public access forum.

OP talks about the Thai culture and systems at play, but he wanted something "special" which can not be discussed in public here.

So I guess a search would not do it.

a search on GOOGLE, sherlock.

Thnx Dr. Watson.

[p_brownstone]

And I hope you aren't one of those fools who thinks the sex trade or drugs and so on are evil western innovations brought here by foreigners. (Heard it many times before and had a poster say so the other day -- blew me away).

Ah, yet another “Joe” who arrived very recently but immediately assimilated not only the fundamentals of Thai Culture but had the (abbreviated) history of the Thai Bar scene engraved on his heart – doubtless by Number XXX in Bar 1.

You have to love them – I guess .

Patrick

[endure]

Nothing you experienced in Pattaya has anything to do with Thai Culture.

Patrick

Pattaya is to Thailand as Blackpool is to England.

[StreetCowboy]

Nothing you experienced in Pattaya has anything to do with Thai Culture.

Patrick

Pattaya is to Thailand as Blackpool is to England.

Insofar as it is full fo Glaswegians during Trades Fortnight

SC

[SteeleJoe]

Ah, yet another “Joe” who arrived very recently but immediately assimilated not only the fundamentals of Thai Culture but had the (abbreviated) history of the Thai Bar scene engraved on his heart – doubtless by Number XXX in Bar 1.

Ah, another fool who thinks length of membership on TV is any indication whatsoever of how experienced and/or knowledgeable one is of Thailand. Truthfully it's rather sad how many posters think that posting on TV is so important...and this one is so astonishingly smug!

Too boring for me and everyone else for me to go into my history, but how's this?

Been here for decades. Lived in Pattaya for several years and been visiting it for 29. Been speaking fluent Thai for 28 years. Spent years running bars. Lived, ate, slept and worked with people "in the bar scene" for years -- not as a customer (not only in sexual relationships of varying depth and duration but very close and decades long platonic ones as well). Worked as paid researcher and consultant on PhD thesis and other works regarding Thai sex industry. Studied and observed Thai culture and history both academically and less formally (but no less rigorously) as a hobby as well as part of my profession. Paid as cross-cultural consultant and trainer.

What does TV have to do with that? And why do I even need to bring any of that up? Only because of your absurd and gratuitously snide comment (not because I am trying to claim I have any more right to comment than anyone else -- only that it's really stupid that one judges my credibility by my post count or when I joined.)

Besides the comment I made doesn't even require knowledge of Thailand -- it just requires one to know what "culture" means.

[SteeleJoe]

In the interest of full disclosure: haven't been to Pattaya for almost 6 years. Haven't been involved in or even frequented the bar scene (with the exception of approximately 1/2 dozens evenings out) for even longer than that.

But even if it's somehow changed radically -- which seems unlikely -- it wouldn't change the fact that culture will evolve and has evolved and for better or worse, Pattaya is no more or less Thailand than the smallest changwat in Nakornnowhere.

EDITED FOR TYPO

Edited January 22, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[StreetCowboy]

Getting back to the original post, an ironic allusion to Lord Elgin:

What have you lost, that you would like to get back?

Obviously, our list has to start with the Calcutta Cup...

SC

Edit: typo corrected

Edit: The Ashes?

Edited January 22, 2011 by StreetCowboy

[MaiChai]

In the interest of full disclosure: haven't been to Pattaya for almost 6 years. Haven't been involved in or even frequented the bar scene (with the exception of approximately 1/2 dozens evenings out) for even longer than that.

But even if it's somehow changed radically -- which seems unlikely -- it wouldn't change the fact that culture will evolve and has evolved and for better or worse, Pattaya is no more or less Thailand than the smallest changwat in Nakornnowhere.

EDITED FOR TYPO

A bit like Blackpool is no more or less than a small country village in England? Somehow Blackpool doesn't make me think of quaint English villages.

You had better go and visit Pattaya before it disappears into the sea... To be honest it won't be any great loss to the Thai culture if it does...

Edited January 24, 2011 by MaiChai

[SteeleJoe]

A bit like Blackpool is no more or less than a small country village in England? Somehow Blackpool doesn't make me think of quaint English villages.

I said nothing of the sort; nor did I say or in any way imply that Pattaya is no more or less than a small country village in Thailand. It is what it is. And it too is Thai, just as a sleepy village is. (Work it out: culture is the good and bad, the urban and rural, the modern and the ancient, indigenous and the borrowed, etc).

You had better go and visit Pattaya before it disappears into the sea...To be honest it won't be any great loss to the Thai culture if it does...

No, it won't. But even you admit that it is part of Thai culture.

[Just as an example: Thai brothels -- many of which are arguably far more nefarious than anything on Walking Street etc -- are also a part of Thai culture and have been for centuries. Just because the sex industry in Pattaya and much of its local business caters to western tourists, it's not also representative of some aspects of Thai culture? Is not indeed as it is, (ie the likes of which aren't quite found elsewhere), because it's in Thailand? No doubt, it shares much in common with any tourist resort/sex tourism haven in any country. But to whatever extent, it's got its own nuances -- subtle or not -- that exist because it's in Thailand.

The locals are doing it, it's local culture. Just as, whether you like it or not, Blackpool is English just as much as the much more pleasant and traditional/modern and sophisticated parts of England are.]

[SteeleJoe]

A bit like Blackpool is no more or less than a small country village in England? Somehow Blackpool doesn't make me think of quaint English villages.

I said nothing of the sort; nor did I say or in any way imply that Pattaya is no more or less than a small country village in Thailand. It is what it is. And it too is Thai, just as a sleepy village is. (Work it out: culture is the good and bad, the urban and rural, the modern and the ancient, indigenous and the borrowed, etc).

You had better go and visit Pattaya before it disappears into the sea...To be honest it won't be any great loss to the Thai culture if it does...

No, it won't. But even you admit that it is part of Thai culture.

[Just as an example: Thai brothels -- many of which are arguably far more nefarious than anything on Walking Street etc -- are also a part of Thai culture and have been for centuries. Just because the sex industry in Pattaya and much of its local business caters to western tourists, it's not also representative of some aspects of Thai culture? Is not indeed as it is, (ie the likes of which aren't quite found elsewhere), because it's in Thailand? No doubt, it shares much in common with any tourist resort/sex tourism haven in any country. But to whatever extent, it's got its own nuances -- subtle or not -- that exist because it's in Thailand.

The locals are doing it, it's local culture. Just as, whether you like it or not, Blackpool is English just as much as the much more pleasant and traditional/modern and sophisticated parts of England are.]

EDIT TO ADD:

Let me more specific about one thing: anyone who thinks that Thai culture in no way dictates anything that happens in Pattaya, they are sadly mistaken; it has its own rules to be sure but not only are those rules shaped by modern 'Pattaya Thais', they also have at their foundation universal Thai cultural traits (some of which are ancient/traditional in origin)...and by that I'm not referring only to the sex trade and its subcultural peculiarities but even some behaviors, mores, and beliefs that would be common to any Thai.

[p_brownstone]

A bit like Blackpool is no more or less than a small country village in England? Somehow Blackpool doesn't make me think of quaint English villages.

I said nothing of the sort; nor did I say or in any way imply that Pattaya is no more or less than a small country village in Thailand. It is what it is. And it too is Thai, just as a sleepy village is. (Work it out: culture is the good and bad, the urban and rural, the modern and the ancient, indigenous and the borrowed, etc).

You had better go and visit Pattaya before it disappears into the sea...To be honest it won't be any great loss to the Thai culture if it does...

No, it won't. But even you admit that it is part of Thai culture.

[Just as an example: Thai brothels -- many of which are arguably far more nefarious than anything on Walking Street etc -- are also a part of Thai culture and have been for centuries. Just because the sex industry in Pattaya and much of its local business caters to western tourists, it's not also representative of some aspects of Thai culture? Is not indeed as it is, (ie the likes of which aren't quite found elsewhere), because it's in Thailand? No doubt, it shares much in common with any tourist resort/sex tourism haven in any country. But to whatever extent, it's got its own nuances -- subtle or not -- that exist because it's in Thailand.

The locals are doing it, it's local culture. Just as, whether you like it or not, Blackpool is English just as much as the much more pleasant and traditional/modern and sophisticated parts of England are.]

Ah yet another “Poacher turned Gamekeeper” or to be more specific “Pimp turned Social Crusader” - most amusing.

You claim an impressive pedigree in “Cross Cultural” education etc., however surely one of the most fundamental requirements of that “profession” is a willingness to accept varying views and opinions, even when they contrast directly with ones’ own, and to debate the differences calmly and without rancour.

Yet your 2nd Post on this Thread labels me – totally without provocation – as a “fool”.

Not an inspiring start, nor proof of your “qualifications” ..... quite the reverse I would say!

Further, you seem to be under the impression that whatever happens in a Society immediately becomes an integral part of that “Culture”, regardless of how that behaviour is generally accepted by the population at large.

Therefore by your “definition” Thai Culture happily encompasses Muggings, Drive by Shootings, Political corruption etc. etc. – all of which occur in virtually every Society in the world of course.

Ergo – there is no difference at all between any Society or “Culture” in the world.

Is that your contention?

Patrick

Edit : Typo

Edited January 25, 2011 by p_brownstone

[SteeleJoe]

Ah yet another "Poacher turned Gamekeeper" or to be more specific "Pimp turned Social Crusader" - most amusing.

I was never a pimp. Never a social crusader either (though I have done some things that I hope did some good). Glad you are amused (but I'm afraid rather than make you look superior your smugness just makes you look like you THINK you are superior).

You claim an impressive pedigree in "Cross Cultural" education etc., however surely one of the most fundamental requirements of that "profession" is a willingness to accept varying views and opinions, even when they contrast directly with ones' own, and to debate the differences calmly and without rancour.

I have no problem with a difference in opinion. What I have a problem with is your completely gratuitous snide comment about me. (I also admit to a problem with people calmly making absolute statements that happen to be fallacious -- but it's a bad habit of mine that I speak up about it).

Plenty of provocation: 1) your comment about me 2) the truly foolish notion that because I'ma new poster, you know about me and I am someone new to Thailand and have little actual knowkldege of it or what I speak.

Not an inspiring start, nor proof of your "qualifications" ..... quite the reverse I would say!

Inspiring start? To what?! Let me guess, you are still trying to judge me on my standing here on TV. Newsflash -- I don't give a rat's ***. As for proof of qualifications, I never offered any -- but nothing I have said does the opposite of proving any ability I have to opine.

Further, you seem to be under the impression that whatever happens in a Society immediately becomes an integral part of that "Culture", regardless of how that behaviour is generally accepted by the population at large.

Not quite. But clearly you are an intelligent person and you know from readign what I wrote that that is not my contention.

Therefore by your "definition" Thai Culture happily encompasses Muggings, Drive by Shootings, Political corruption etc. etc. – all of which occur in virtually every Society in the world of course.

My "definition"? My interpretation of the Oxford dictionary, perhaps. My point is simply that just because it's in Pattaya, or relatively new in historical terms, doesn't mean it's not Thai culture.

Happily? Where did I say that? I didn't - that's just you being intellectually dishonest.

Yes, Thailand has all those things and yes, they are partly a result of Thai cultural norms.

Ergo – there is no difference at all between any Society or "Culture" in the world.

No ergo there. Nice try; because some things are the same, everything is the same? I never said that -- but you have (which, again, as a bright guy you can't possibly believe -- so again it calls into question your intellectual honesty.) What's your contention? That somehow Pattaya is in some kind of special kind of sphere in which all Thai culture has been leached and is unable to penetrate? That whatever the culture is there, it sprang forth on its own or was imported entirely?

You talk about tolerating difference in opinion but as soon as I express one in opposition to yours, you resort to ad hominem and distortion. Why not simply tell me how it is that Thai culture doesn't exist in Pattaya or has nothing to do with what goes on there? Where was your calm and rancourless (sic) debate? First -- based on zero information -- you say (in the most condescending fashion possible) I'm a recent arrival who knows nothing beyond what some bargirl told me. Then you call me a pimp.

Bravo.

EDIT FOR TYPOS

Edited January 25, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

Got so offended at being called a (former) pimp that I forgot my first instinct which was to apologize for calling you a fool. It was a foolish thing you said but I wish I hadn't used an insult simply because you'd insulted me.

[p_brownstone]

Lots of selective editing there "Joe", if you want to debate, leave all the Quotes the way they were - in full.

And look at the timeline of the Posts too.

Patrick

[SteeleJoe]

"Patrick"

I'm genuinely sorry if it appears as if I was trying to misrepresent anything by breaking it into parts (I'm being sincere). Did I put something out of context? Did it alter in any way what you said or leave out something that would have made my reply less valid?

Fair enough. Your post:

Ah yet another “Poacher turned Gamekeeper” or to be more specific “Pimp turned Social Crusader” - most amusing.

You claim an impressive pedigree in “Cross Cultural” education etc., however surely one of the most fundamental requirements of that “profession” is a willingness to accept varying views and opinions, even when they contrast directly with ones’ own, and to debate the differences calmly and without rancour.

Yet your 2nd Post on this Thread labels me – totally without provocation – as a “fool”.

Not an inspiring start, nor proof of your “qualifications” ..... quite the reverse I would say!

Further, you seem to be under the impression that whatever happens in a Society immediately becomes an integral part of that “Culture”, regardless of how that behaviour is generally accepted by the population at large.

Therefore by your “definition” Thai Culture happily encompasses Muggings, Drive by Shootings, Political corruption etc. etc. – all of which occur in virtually every Society in the world of course.

Ergo – there is no difference at all between any Society or “Culture” in the world.

Is that your contention?

Patrick

My reply:

I was never a pimp. Never a social crusader either (though I have done some things that I hope did some good). Glad you are amused (but I'm afraid rather than make you look superior your smugness just makes you look like you THINK you are superior).

I have no problem with a difference in opinion. What I have a problem with is your completely gratuitous snide comment about me. (I also admit to a problem with people calmly making absolute statements that happen to be fallacious -- but it's a bad habit of mine that I speak up about it).

Plenty of provocation: 1) your comment about me 2) the truly foolish notion that because I'ma new poster, you know about me and I am someone new to Thailand and have little actual knowkldege of it or what I speak.

Inspiring start? To what?! Let me guess, you are still trying to judge me on my standing here on TV. Newsflash -- I don't give a rat's ***. As for proof of qualifications, I never offered any -- but nothing I have said does the opposite of proving any ability I have to opine.

Not quite. But clearly you are an intelligent person and you know from readign what I wrote that that is not my contention.

My "definition"? My interpretation of the Oxford dictionary, perhaps. My point is simply that just because it's in Pattaya, or relatively new in historical terms, doesn't mean it's not Thai culture.

Happily? Where did I say that? I didn't - that's just you being intellectually dishonest.

Yes, Thailand has all those things and yes, they are partly a result of Thai cultural norms.

No ergo there. Nice try; because some things are the same, everything is the same? I never said that -- but you have (which, again, as a bright guy you can't possibly believe -- so again it calls into question your intellectual honesty.) What's yourcontention? That somehow Pattaya is in some kind of special kind of sphere in which all Thai culture has been leached and is unable to penetrate? That whatever the culture is there, it sprang forth on its own or was imported entirely?

You talk about tolerating difference in opinion but as soon as I express one in opposition to yours, you resort to ad hominem and distortion. Why not simply tell me how it is that Thai culture doesn't exist in Pattaya or has nothing to do with what goes on there? Where was your calm and rancourless (sic) debate? First -- based on zero information -- you say (in the most condescending fashion possible) I'm a recent arrival who knows nothing beyond what some bargirl told me. Then you call me a pimp.

Bravo.

I'm afraid I honestly don't know what you mean by your refernce to timeline of the Posts. Perhaps if you actually comment as to the content of my post instead of only its format you can clarify that for me.

Look, I never meant to get into some p**sing contest. All I said was - in response to you saying, "Nothing (the OP) experienced in Pattaya has anything to do with Thai Culture." -- was this:

That statement reminds me of how (conservative) Thais are always talking about this and that not being Thai culture (sexy clothing, premarital sex, etc) -- methinks you are making the same mistake they do: "culture" is not a static thing. it evolves constantly (no less here than in the west, where sexy attire, premarital sex, etc were once not part of the culture) If Thais are doing it in large numbers and its widely (if not universally) accepted by them, then it is Thai culture.

Obviously there are many aspects of Pattaya which could (and should) be described as elements of a subculture and which are not typical of Thailand as a whole, but the fact remains -- Pattaya is the way it is because it's in Thailand. if it were somewhere else, it wouldn't be quite like that.

CULTURE: the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people

In other words, Thai culture isn't all about Thai dancing and wais -- don't be confused between culture and (ancient) traditions.

You came back with derision and insults.

One more thing, that I should have said in my previous post: I don't claim an impressive pedigree. I haven't the slightest doubt that there are many others here - perhaps even including yourself -- who are far more accomplished. Maybe even most posters. What I do claim is a great deal of experience and some study that qualifies me to some degree (almost certainly as much as you, to whom I was responding) to opine on the subject in hand and I only brought my experience into to it because you presumptuously decided that I had no real qualification to comment and (moreover, astonishingly, that you knew what my experience was.)

[p_brownstone]

OK, PAX - (peace)!

I think perhaps we got off on the wrong foot - my fault too.

Maybe meet for a beer and a chat sometime to calm the waters!?

Sorry if I offended you in any way, it was not really intentional.

Best regards.

Patrick

Edited January 25, 2011 by p_brownstone

[SteeleJoe]

I was all for peace but wasn't really sure if I wanted to reply to the last post, until you added a bit. Kudos for going that extra step.

Sorry if I offended you in any way, it was not really intentional.

Well, you did -- and you did a good job for someone who wasn't trying! But apology gladly accepted and one offered in return for whatever offense I caused. (Lord knows I can pontificate to an obnoxious degree; it's petty but I enjoy it and it's truly not malicious nor consciously meant to be seen as a display of attempted superiority. I'm afraid I can't promise you won't see any more of it on TV).