US diplomat kills three Pakistanis in Lahore

[News_Editor]

US diplomat kills three Pakistanis in Lahore

2011-01-28 01:31:41 GMT+7 (ICT)

LAHORE, PAKISTAN (BNO NEWS) -- A United States diplomat on Thursday killed three Pakistani people, two by shooting, in Lahore, Geo TV reported.

Raymond David, a staff member of the U.S. Consulate, shot at two individuals riding on a motorcycle at Mazang Chowk, in Lahore. The two men were pronounced dead at a nearby hospital shortly after.

One of the deceased has been identified as Faizan Haider. The U.S. national claims to have shot to the individuals in self-defense. However, he killed a third man as he attempted to flee the scene.

The other motorcyclist was hit by David's car and was rushed to the Services Hospital. The third victim, Abdul Rehman, died while receiving treatment while David was apprehended and taken to Old Anarkali Police Station.

Local residents gathered outside the Old Anarkali station. The protesters burned tires and demanded handing over of the U.S. citizen to them. AS precaution, police shifted David to another undisclosed location.

The American diplomat told police that the bikers were robbers and he shot at them in self-defense. However, it was not explained why he attempted to flee the scene.

Police officers recovered a weapon suspected of being the one used by David at the scene. Criminal proceedings have been initiated against David.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2011-01-28

[Jingthing]

What ever happened to diplomatic immunity?

[richard_smith237]

CIA caught with their pants down.....

There's surely much more to this than the story suggests.

[geriatrickid]

CIA caught with their pants down.....

There's surely much more to this than the story suggests.

Or maybe, it is a reflection of the mess that Lahore is in. They do random robberies like that there. Makes Joho seem safe.

[Slip]

Certainly doesn't sound very diplomatic.

[mark45y]

Anyone who can shoot and kill two guys on a moving motorcycle with a pistol is a pretty good shot. I mean a real good shot. Although I only assume it was a pistol I have never seen a diplomat carry an assault rifle. Crowded street, people riding motorcycles everywhere, run over one guy with your car and shoot dead two others without hitting innocent bystanders. The dude has some heavy training me thinks.

[hammered]

Hopefully this alleged (with pretty good evidence it seems)murderer will be tried under local laws and punished heavily if guilty. Failure for this end to be achieved will only increase already negative feelings to the US. Withdraw immunity immediately

Edited January 28, 2011 by hammered

[Ulysses G.]

Since when is shooting robbers "murder"? It is very possible that they had it coming.

[Credo]

Anyone who can shoot and kill two guys on a moving motorcycle with a pistol is a pretty good shot. I mean a real good shot. Although I only assume it was a pistol I have never seen a diplomat carry an assault rifle. Crowded street, people riding motorcycles everywhere, run over one guy with your car and shoot dead two others without hitting innocent bystanders. The dude has some heavy training me thinks.

Remember that guns are widespread in the US. Being a good shot isn't all that sinister.

Removing diplomatic immunity might be a very unwise thing to do in a country like Pakistan. It's not like this incident would draw any attention if it wasn't a diplomat doing it and a US diplomat at that.

[mark45y]

Anyone who can shoot and kill two guys on a moving motorcycle with a pistol is a pretty good shot. I mean a real good shot. Although I only assume it was a pistol I have never seen a diplomat carry an assault rifle. Crowded street, people riding motorcycles everywhere, run over one guy with your car and shoot dead two others without hitting innocent bystanders. The dude has some heavy training me thinks.

Remember that guns are widespread in the US. Being a good shot isn't all that sinister.

Removing diplomatic immunity might be a very unwise thing to do in a country like Pakistan. It's not like this incident would draw any attention if it wasn't a diplomat doing it and a US diplomat at that.

Credo, I have to tell you I am a good shot. I am better than good I am even credentialed as an expert marksman and have the certificates and medals to prove it. Shooting in a crowd is not easy. I have been shot at in a crowd and armed with a .45 auto pistol did not return fire because I was afraid of hitting someone. I also had a bomb thrown in the back of my truck and did not fire on the assailant with my submachine gun because I was afraid of hitting people. I jumped out of the truck and ran away.

Most of the people in the US who can shoot can do so because of hunting. 99% of hunters hunt with a rifle or shotgun not a pistol. Good pistol shots in the US are few.

Farmers and ranchers have guns and shoot snakes and varmints, again most of the time with a rifle.

I carried a pistol legally because I deposited cash from my restaurants. I went a couple of times a year to a range to shoot to stay in practice but it is not the same as shooting someone. As much as you have done it, adrenaline kicks in and it is difficult for all but the most hardened recent combat veteran to shoot another person.

[Credo]

Point taken Marky.

[mark45y]

Hopefully this alleged (with pretty good evidence it seems)murderer will be tried under local laws and punished heavily if guilty. Failure for this end to be achieved will only increase already negative feelings to the US. Withdraw immunity immediately

Here is what really happened. He was sitting in his car when approached by two men with guns drawn and they started shooting leaving holes in his windshield. He shot the two men with a Biretta, I think an M92.

The American diplomat in the car saw the armed guys on the motorcycle coming and called two other Americans who were in a car behind the diplomat. They swerved around a car in traffic to come to his aid and hit and killed a pedestrian.

The gunmen managed to get off a number of shots and the Diplomats car was shown on local TV with bullet holes in the windshield.

I think the guy did a good job. The M92 is not known for its man stopping power and he didn't hit any bystanders. Too bad the car coming to his rescue did.

This will come out in the news in a day or so. My source is better than yours.

[coma]

Anyone who can shoot and kill two guys on a moving motorcycle with a pistol is a pretty good shot. I mean a real good shot. Although I only assume it was a pistol I have never seen a diplomat carry an assault rifle. Crowded street, people riding motorcycles everywhere, run over one guy with your car and shoot dead two others without hitting innocent bystanders. The dude has some heavy training me thinks.

Remember that guns are widespread in the US. Being a good shot isn't all that sinister.

Removing diplomatic immunity might be a very unwise thing to do in a country like Pakistan. It's not like this incident would draw any attention if it wasn't a diplomat doing it and a US diplomat at that.

Credo, I have to tell you I am a good shot. I am better than good I am even credentialed as an expert marksman and have the certificates and medals to prove it. Shooting in a crowd is not easy. I have been shot at in a crowd and armed with a .45 auto pistol did not return fire because I was afraid of hitting someone. I also had a bomb thrown in the back of my truck and did not fire on the assailant with my submachine gun because I was afraid of hitting people. I jumped out of the truck and ran away.

Most of the people in the US who can shoot can do so because of hunting. 99% of hunters hunt with a rifle or shotgun not a pistol. Good pistol shots in the US are few.

Farmers and ranchers have guns and shoot snakes and varmints, again most of the time with a rifle.

I carried a pistol legally because I deposited cash from my restaurants. I went a couple of times a year to a range to shoot to stay in practice but it is not the same as shooting someone. As much as you have done it, adrenaline kicks in and it is difficult for all but the most hardened recent combat veteran to shoot another person.

Still not much info out on this one yet. But I agree. I aint no decendant of Wyatt Earp or William Bonny but I have spent my fair share of time out on the range.And I believe it is quite dIfficult indeed to effectiively engaged at target on the move with a short barrelled firearm. It takes hours and hours of firing thousands of rounds in all sorts of differant serials to be proficient. Look at this guy. He didn't miss. Not a one. He may well be some Ninja F#&k Master. IMO

[FritsSikkink]

@mark45y

I have been shot at in a crowd and armed with a .45 auto pistol

I also had a bomb thrown in the back of my truck and did not fire on the assailant with my submachine gun

Do you live in a warzone?

[mark45y]

@mark45y

I have been shot at in a crowd and armed with a .45 auto pistol

I also had a bomb thrown in the back of my truck and did not fire on the assailant with my submachine gun

Do you live in a warzone?

I lived in Saigon during parts of 1968 and 1969 part of the time in Thailand. Good food, a lot of women and occasionally people shooting at you. All in all not as dangerous as my first GF in Thailand. Those devious Vietnamese even sneaked into Thailand and threw a couple of bombs here. Then we got the guard dogs and it was better. Good guard dogs. If you go to Satthip you can see a couple of relatives. They were supposed to kill them when we left but they didn't.

[mark45y]

Anyone who can shoot and kill two guys on a moving motorcycle with a pistol is a pretty good shot. I mean a real good shot. Although I only assume it was a pistol I have never seen a diplomat carry an assault rifle. Crowded street, people riding motorcycles everywhere, run over one guy with your car and shoot dead two others without hitting innocent bystanders. The dude has some heavy training me thinks.

Remember that guns are widespread in the US. Being a good shot isn't all that sinister.

Removing diplomatic immunity might be a very unwise thing to do in a country like Pakistan. It's not like this incident would draw any attention if it wasn't a diplomat doing it and a US diplomat at that.

Credo, I have to tell you I am a good shot. I am better than good I am even credentialed as an expert marksman and have the certificates and medals to prove it. Shooting in a crowd is not easy. I have been shot at in a crowd and armed with a .45 auto pistol did not return fire because I was afraid of hitting someone. I also had a bomb thrown in the back of my truck and did not fire on the assailant with my submachine gun because I was afraid of hitting people. I jumped out of the truck and ran away.

Most of the people in the US who can shoot can do so because of hunting. 99% of hunters hunt with a rifle or shotgun not a pistol. Good pistol shots in the US are few.

Farmers and ranchers have guns and shoot snakes and varmints, again most of the time with a rifle.

I carried a pistol legally because I deposited cash from my restaurants. I went a couple of times a year to a range to shoot to stay in practice but it is not the same as shooting someone. As much as you have done it, adrenaline kicks in and it is difficult for all but the most hardened recent combat veteran to shoot another person.

Still not much info out on this one yet. But I agree. I aint no decendant of Wyatt Earp or William Bonny but I have spent my fair share of time out on the range.And I believe it is quite dIfficult indeed to effectiively engaged at target on the move with a short barrelled firearm. It takes hours and hours of firing thousands of rounds in all sorts of differant serials to be proficient. Look at this guy. He didn't miss. Not a one. He may well be some Ninja F#&k Master. IMO

And when they are shooting back it creates a whole new dynamic. Experience usually pays off. If you have never been shot at before you don't know what it feels like. I had had instructors shoot machine guns over my head while I crawled in the mud but that was training not real. The first time it happened in real life my butt was really puckered up.

They say in the American Civil war half the soldiers forgot to re load or loaded balls and powder on top of one another and forgot the caps. America did not have a large standing Army.

The British Army could get off three shots off per minute with a Brown Bess and they trained every day with live ammunition.

When the guns go boom boom instinct takes over be it way back when or today.

[coma]

@mark45y

I have been shot at in a crowd and armed with a .45 auto pistol

I also had a bomb thrown in the back of my truck and did not fire on the assailant with my submachine gun

Do you live in a warzone?

Why not just post your entire service record so we can all get real impressed ?

Or maybe we could start a thread designated only for TV members' service records so everybody can compare p#$% sizes.

[Tywais]

“No member of a diplomatic mission in a country is allowed to carry arms.

Only security personnel are permitted to do so and that too after informing the local security authorities in advance regarding their movement,” he said.

Civil Lines Division SP Umer Saeed said the arrested US Consulate employee was not carrying any licence for the weapon recovered from his possession.

Quoting the suspect, the SP said he was being chased by the armed motorcyclists. As soon as he reached Qurtaba Chowk, one of them tried to kill him, he told the police.

Preliminarily investigation suggested that as the motorcyclists wanted to mug the foreigner, he killed them in self-defence, the SP said, adding that one of the two was identified as Faizan Haider of Ravi Road.

Mohammad Ramzan, a salesman at a shop on Jail Road, told Dawn that he saw a foreigner leaving his Honda car in a hurry and with a pistol in his hand. “Within seconds he trained his gun at two motorcyclists standing at the Qurtaba Chowk traffic signal and opened fire,” he said.

Both the youngsters suffered multiple injuries and fell on the road. The foreigner immediately drove away his car towards Mozang Chowk.

Source and more details here: The Pakastani Newspaper

[Tywais]

'Rambo goes berserk'

He did not have diplomatic immunity and was not one of the foreign security personnel allowed to carry firearms, according to the Pakistani authorities.

Mr Tareen said a Glock pistol had been recovered from Mr Davis and that pistols had also been found on the two men shot dead.

Mr Davis said in a statement that the motorcycle rider and his pillion passenger had been trying to hijack his vehicle at gunpoint, according to police.

Police said the American told officers that he had withdrawn money from a cash machine shortly before the incident.

Pakistani investigators have said the two men were probably robbers.

BBC News

-- BBC 1/28/2011

[Tywais]

Regarding the number of shots.

A senior police officer said Mr David, a technical officer of the US consulate in Lahore, had spent two years in Afghanistan and was well-trained to combat any critical situation.

As soon as one of the motorcyclists drew pistol, he acted within seconds, targeting him with four shots. He then fired three shots at his companion.

Of the seven shots, the police officer added, he missed only one as police found six shells he fired form his pistol.

Dawn.com

[powderpuff]

Sounds like an employee of Blackwater.

[mark45y]

@mark45y

I have been shot at in a crowd and armed with a .45 auto pistol

I also had a bomb thrown in the back of my truck and did not fire on the assailant with my submachine gun

Do you live in a warzone?

Why not just post your entire service record so we can all get real impressed ?

Or maybe we could start a thread designated only for TV members' service records so everybody can compare p#$% sizes.

When you are talking about race car driving it would be nice to hear from someone who has driven a race car. When you are talking about getting shot at it would be appropriate to talk to some one who has been shot at. In the medical forum when you are asking about an operation it would be nice to talk to someone who had the operation. Get it?

[MJP]

Anyone who can shoot and kill two guys on a moving motorcycle with a pistol is a pretty good shot. I mean a real good shot. Although I only assume it was a pistol I have never seen a diplomat carry an assault rifle. Crowded street, people riding motorcycles everywhere, run over one guy with your car and shoot dead two others without hitting innocent bystanders. The dude has some heavy training me thinks.

Remember that guns are widespread in the US. Being a good shot isn't all that sinister.

Removing diplomatic immunity might be a very unwise thing to do in a country like Pakistan. It's not like this incident would draw any attention if it wasn't a diplomat doing it and a US diplomat at that.

Credo, I have to tell you I am a good shot. I am better than good I am even credentialed as an expert marksman and have the certificates and medals to prove it. Shooting in a crowd is not easy. I have been shot at in a crowd and armed with a .45 auto pistol did not return fire because I was afraid of hitting someone. I also had a bomb thrown in the back of my truck and did not fire on the assailant with my submachine gun because I was afraid of hitting people. I jumped out of the truck and ran away.

Most of the people in the US who can shoot can do so because of hunting. 99% of hunters hunt with a rifle or shotgun not a pistol. Good pistol shots in the US are few.

Farmers and ranchers have guns and shoot snakes and varmints, again most of the time with a rifle.

I carried a pistol legally because I deposited cash from my restaurants. I went a couple of times a year to a range to shoot to stay in practice but it is not the same as shooting someone. As much as you have done it, adrenaline kicks in and it is difficult for all but the most hardened recent combat veteran to shoot another person.

See. This is why I don't go to Pattaya. Told you it was dangerous.

[cdnvic]

Coma, you are in no position to disprove anyone's experiences here anymore than they are to prove them. Arguing over the veracity of their stories is pointless. There's no shortage of vets on this forum.

[mark45y]

Regarding the number of shots.

A senior police officer said Mr David, a technical officer of the US consulate in Lahore, had spent two years in Afghanistan and was well-trained to combat any critical situation.

As soon as one of the motorcyclists drew pistol, he acted within seconds, targeting him with four shots. He then fired three shots at his companion.

Of the seven shots, the police officer added, he missed only one as police found six shells he fired form his pistol.

Dawn.com

Well that makes more sense than the initial report and my information. The only thing it does not mention is how the bullet holes got in his windshield.

[MJP]

Coma, you are in no position to disprove anyone's experiences here anymore than they are to prove them. Arguing over the veracity of their stories is pointless. There's no shortage of vets on this forum.

Oh good. Any vets know the best sort of flea spray here, type that won't kill puppies?

[Ulysses G.]

Most of them were in the SAS and were too tough to be bothered by a little poison.

[a99az]

Anyone who can shoot and kill two guys on a moving motorcycle with a pistol is a pretty good shot. I mean a real good shot. Although I only assume it was a pistol I have never seen a diplomat carry an assault rifle. Crowded street, people riding motorcycles everywhere, run over one guy with your car and shoot dead two others without hitting innocent bystanders. The dude has some heavy training me thinks.

Got to agree with you on this one, and as another poster said more to this than they are saying.

[MJP]

Most of them were in the SAS and were too tough to be bothered by a little poison.

Well I got this one brand, but it's 1% permethrin. Is this safe for a a puppy weighing about a kilo?

[Ulysses G.]

Wrong kind of "vet".