U.S. demands release of American diplomat in Pakistan, says he has immunity

[Ulysses G.]

Whether the shooter is a diplomat, minister, banker,school teacher, etc and these two fellows were threatening him, he has probably done the world a favor by eliminating the vermin.

Of course.

[SerpentSea]

Whether the shooter is a diplomat, minister, banker,school teacher, etc and these two fellows were threatening him, he has probably done the world a favor by eliminating the vermin.

Of course.

Applauding extrajudicial killing? Thumbs up for a murderer and terrorists? calling the victims vermins who had to be eliminated? People with such thoughts causing the problem in the world.

[Ulysses G.]

Never heard of self-defense?

[geriatrickid]

Interesting that the concept of justice, and a gathering of facts is tossed aside by some who want to use this as an opportunity to bash all things American. If the chap was not American, I doubt some people in this thread would be so vocal,

[slapout]

Whether the shooter is a diplomat, minister, banker,school teacher, etc and these two fellows were threatening him, he has probably done the world a favor by eliminating the vermin.

Of course.

Applauding extrajudicial killing? Thumbs up for a murderer and terrorists? calling the victims vermins who had to be eliminated? People with such thoughts causing the problem in the world.

I first thought you were addressing part of my post, then noticed the question marks. I agree those fellows who were shot were probably causing some of the worlds problems.

[SerpentSea]

Interesting that the concept of justice, and a gathering of facts is tossed aside by some who want to use this as an opportunity to bash all things American. If the chap was not American, I doubt some people in this thread would be so vocal,

Bashing all things American? Not sure what you talking about.

In case the dead victims were American(US), could you imagine the shitstrom if someone would be so vocal and call them dirty bastards or vermins who deserved what they got.

[Ulysses G.]

Interesting that the concept of justice, and a gathering of facts is tossed aside by some who want to use this as an opportunity to bash all things American. If the chap was not American, I doubt some people in this thread would be so vocal,

Bashing all things American? Not sure what you talking about.

I recommend reviewing pretty much all your posts in the World News section.

[SerpentSea]

Unless he was Israeli.

Imagine the killer would be an Palestinian, Pakistani and/or a Muslim. The thread were full of The Qur'an experts (some in combat dress) and haters full of stereotypes, prejudice and ignorance and vets with their pets.

And it looks like these people are already here.

[bangkokrick]

Is it just me, or are there other's that read the Bangkok Post or Thaivisa.com who can actually understand a report written in English. The report clearly stated, but I will paraphrase, "Armed criminals who just committed a life-threatening crime on another person was obviously attempting to do the same on what they must of thought to be easy prey and a big catch got blown away by a cool-headed, self-reliant, well-trained, courageous American who properly, legally, and morally justifiably killed the dirty bas\tar\ds". That would make it 100% self-defense regardless of diplomatic immunity or not, so what is all this mindless debate over immunity or no immunity - its an irrelevant point so go back to dipping your hand in you shorts on another site. What is so frickin' hard for you lame twits to understand here?

So what has self defence got to do with anything. He still shot and killed 2 people. so I doubt that a plea of self defence. laws change from Country to Country for example if you killed someone in self defence in the UK you would still be very likely to get jail time. I guess that this does no apply in the US, but maybe does apply on Pakistan.

I can see the correlation in laws between Pakistan and the UK, wasn't Pakistan one of you subjugated, controlled, and raped countries of past (British East India company ring a bell)? And, I think it was the US that principally forced the UK to abandoned such repressive colonialism after WWII. So I consider opinions about the ills of America to be as hypocritical as possible coming from someone in the UK considering there wouldn't even be a UK if the US didn't keep bailing your a$ out, even today, your banks and economy have all but collapsed and would certainly have if the US's friendship to your stink-water island didn't produce massive amounts of commerce keeping you alive.

As far as self-defense. If the police in the US can clearly see that you defended your self (maybe as a result of witnesses), you will unlikely go to jail. If it is not clear, then you might go until a police report can be submitted to the district attorney, but even then, you might not. You might be arrested after the police conduct an investigation. If it is still not clear and there is any indication that the shooting was not to protect yourself as the result of having a fear for your life, then you might be arraigned of charges. But you don't just go to jail unless there is some evidence that you did something wrong.

Well a very anti British post so thanks for that, but I can't for the life in me see why. I did not refer to any ill's of the American system, but I will if you want me to and there are many. Don't forget that the US law was based on British law when you were just another British colony. Then you won your independence with massive assistance from the French, otherwise you probably would still be another colony.

Still the point is that this guy could get the death sentence for what he has done. Rightly or wrongly.

[bangkokrick]

Interesting that the concept of justice, and a gathering of facts is tossed aside by some who want to use this as an opportunity to bash all things American. If the chap was not American, I doubt some people in this thread would be so vocal,

Well I am not bashing the Americans, but the accused does happen to be an American. I would be of the same opinion what ever his nationality.

[Ulysses G.]

Unless he was Israeli.

Imagine the killer would be an Palestinian, Pakistani and/or a Muslim.

That is the point. The usual suspects would be singing their praises instead of making up nonsense to condemn someone who was forced to defend himself..

[JUDAS]

Is it just me, or are there other's that read the Bangkok Post or Thaivisa.com who can actually understand a report written in English. The report clearly stated, but I will paraphrase, "Armed criminals who just committed a life-threatening crime on another person was obviously attempting to do the same on what they must of thought to be easy prey and a big catch got blown away by a cool-headed, self-reliant, well-trained, courageous American who properly, legally, and morally justifiably killed the dirty bas\tar\ds". That would make it 100% self-defense regardless of diplomatic immunity or not, so what is all this mindless debate over immunity or no immunity - its an irrelevant point so go back to dipping your hand in you shorts on another site. What is so frickin' hard for you lame twits to understand here?

So what has self defence got to do with anything. He still shot and killed 2 people. so I doubt that a plea of self defence. laws change from Country to Country for example if you killed someone in self defence in the UK you would still be very likely to get jail time. I guess that this does no apply in the US, but maybe does apply on Pakistan.

I can see the correlation in laws between Pakistan and the UK, wasn't Pakistan one of you subjugated, controlled, and raped countries of past (British East India company ring a bell)? And, I think it was the US that principally forced the UK to abandoned such repressive colonialism after WWII. So I consider opinions about the ills of America to be as hypocritical as possible coming from someone in the UK considering there wouldn't even be a UK if the US didn't keep bailing your a$ out, even today, your banks and economy have all but collapsed and would certainly have if the US's friendship to your stink-water island didn't produce massive amounts of commerce keeping you alive.

As far as self-defense. If the police in the US can clearly see that you defended your self (maybe as a result of witnesses), you will unlikely go to jail. If it is not clear, then you might go until a police report can be submitted to the district attorney, but even then, you might not. You might be arrested after the police conduct an investigation. If it is still not clear and there is any indication that the shooting was not to protect yourself as the result of having a fear for your life, then you might be arraigned of charges. But you don't just go to jail unless there is some evidence that you did something wrong.

Well a very anti British post so thanks for that, but I can't for the life in me see why. I did not refer to any ill's of the American system, but I will if you want me to and there are many. Don't forget that the US law was based on British law when you were just another British colony. Then you won your independence with massive assistance from the French, otherwise you probably would still be another colony.

Still the point is that this guy could get the death sentence for what he has done. Rightly or wrongly.

gohmer. I'm a Brit and Irish ( I'll let you figure it out ) Just wondering if you feel you've made your point in the best possible way? The term "stink-water island" whilst amusing, doesn't lend itself to coherent debate

[SerpentSea]

Unless he was Israeli.

Imagine the killer would be an Palestinian, Pakistani and/or a Muslim.

That is the point. The usual suspects would be singing their praises instead of making up nonsense to condemn someone who was forced to defend himself..

errm. I thought i saw you praising and applauding murder and making up nonsense about self defense.

[chuckd]

Interesting that the concept of justice, and a gathering of facts is tossed aside by some who want to use this as an opportunity to bash all things American. If the chap was not American, I doubt some people in this thread would be so vocal,

Well I am not bashing the Americans, but the accused does happen to be an American. I would be of the same opinion what ever his nationality.

The day following the shooting incident in Pakistan, this happened...

There is not one post from the outraged ThaiVisa crowd condemning it, yet there are 75 or more posts on this thread involving the US citizen.

You figure it out.

[koheesti]

A foreigner in a car with faked car number plate, illegally caring fire arms, killed two people, involved in a hit and run that left another person dead and injured over a dozen people, tried to fled the scene and so on.

You left out the part about the two men - apparently selling baked goods with all proceeds benefiting the local orphanage - were also carrying firearms. I wonder if their guns were legally purchased and registered with the authorities?

[bangkokrick]

A foreigner in a car with faked car number plate, illegally caring fire arms, killed two people, involved in a hit and run that left another person dead and injured over a dozen people, tried to fled the scene and so on.

You left out the part about the two men - apparently selling baked goods with all proceeds benefiting the local orphanage - were also carrying firearms. I wonder if their guns were legally purchased and registered with the authorities?

I doubt whether any guns are legally purchased or registered in Pakistan. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[koheesti]

A foreigner in a car with faked car number plate, illegally caring fire arms, killed two people, involved in a hit and run that left another person dead and injured over a dozen people, tried to fled the scene and so on.

You left out the part about the two men - apparently selling baked goods with all proceeds benefiting the local orphanage - were also carrying firearms. I wonder if their guns were legally purchased and registered with the authorities?

I doubt whether any guns are legally purchased or registered in Pakistan. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What a crock. Two gunmen come up to you with ill intent (Wrong #1) and you suggest not doing anything that might be Wrong #2. Obviously you have never been in such a position because you are alive and posting on TV.

[Ulysses G.]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Tell that to Bernhard Goetz

[bangkokrick]

A foreigner in a car with faked car number plate, illegally caring fire arms, killed two people, involved in a hit and run that left another person dead and injured over a dozen people, tried to fled the scene and so on.

You left out the part about the two men - apparently selling baked goods with all proceeds benefiting the local orphanage - were also carrying firearms. I wonder if their guns were legally purchased and registered with the authorities?

I doubt whether any guns are legally purchased or registered in Pakistan. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What a crock. Two gunmen come up to you with ill intent (Wrong #1) and you suggest not doing anything that might be Wrong #2. Obviously you have never been in such a position because you are alive and posting on TV.

So you have also never been in such a position because you are doing the same.

[Wallaby]

A foreigner in a car with faked car number plate, illegally caring fire arms, killed two people, involved in a hit and run that left another person dead and injured over a dozen people, tried to fled the scene and so on.

You left out the part about the two men - apparently selling baked goods with all proceeds benefiting the local orphanage - were also carrying firearms. I wonder if their guns were legally purchased and registered with the authorities?

What would be the point of stating how wrong the other men were, they are dead. Do you want them arrested as well?

[chuckd]

A foreigner in a car with faked car number plate, illegally caring fire arms, killed two people, involved in a hit and run that left another person dead and injured over a dozen people, tried to fled the scene and so on.

You left out the part about the two men - apparently selling baked goods with all proceeds benefiting the local orphanage - were also carrying firearms. I wonder if their guns were legally purchased and registered with the authorities?

What would be the point of stating how wrong the other men were, they are dead. Do you want them arrested as well?

The point in stating how wrong the alleged attackers were is to determine their intent. Was it their intent to simply rob the US citizen or take him hostage and hold him for ransom or political leverage?

I wonder if Daniel Pearl's widow wishes he had a gun with him in 2002?

[koheesti]

You left out the part about the two men - apparently selling baked goods with all proceeds benefiting the local orphanage - were also carrying firearms. I wonder if their guns were legally purchased and registered with the authorities?

I doubt whether any guns are legally purchased or registered in Pakistan. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What a crock. Two gunmen come up to you with ill intent (Wrong #1) and you suggest not doing anything that might be Wrong #2. Obviously you have never been in such a position because you are alive and posting on TV.

So you have also never been in such a position because you are doing the same.

Uh, no. Maybe I was in such a position but because I'm not naive enough to believe "two wrongs don't make a right" when two men with guns are trying to rob me, I'm alive today (at least as of this posting).

[bangkokrick]

Reply to Khoeesti. Quote problem again.

Congratulations. I am proud to say that I have never been in such a position and have never fired a shot in anger. I don't understand the naive comment, but each to their own.

I have the feeling that not all Americans wll be very happy about this incident. Relations have been strained recently between the US and Pakistani governments and the US have been trying patch thing up with it's 'strategic partner'. Pakistan is a good buffer for the US against the Taliban and the Pakistani army have been keeping them at bay. They have also allegedly allowed the drones to operate from Shamsi airfield in Pakistan. This is an important partnership and one that the US will not want to spoil.

Incidents like the one being discussed here will only bring embarrassment to the US and create anti US feelings among the Pakistani population.

[geriatrickid]

Pakistan has been miliking the Taliban problem for billions of USD. The Pakistanis that are soiling their pants over this event hated the west long before this event. Those Pakistanis that have to live in the crime zone that Lahore is, will sympathize with the Americans. The men that died had criminal records according to the Pakistani press. I don't think they were hailing the American to give him a hug.

[bangkokrick]

Pakistan has been miliking the Taliban problem for billions of USD. The Pakistanis that are soiling their pants over this event hated the west long before this event. Those Pakistanis that have to live in the crime zone that Lahore is, will sympathize with the Americans. The men that died had criminal records according to the Pakistani press. I don't think they were hailing the American to give him a hug.

I am fully aware of the USD's going into Pakistan and I think that this strengthens my point. Why would the US plough in all those dollars if they did not think that Pakistan was important to them. This kind of incident does not help matters.

[wolf5370]

The chart you are citing is the chart used by the United States in dealing with foreign diplomats assigned to US locations, it has absolutely nothing to do with rights and privileges afforded by other countries to US Diplomats, located in their jurisdictions

The chart is issued to local law enforcement in the US and relates to the color of license plates issued to diplomatic missions

There are several "classes" of diplomatic immunity, all of which cover certain aspects of diplomatic immunity. For instance there is full diplomatic immunity, which like it name implies, covers every action of a diplomat. There is transactional diplomatic immunity, which only covers actions of the diplomat in the conduct of his job and is limited in scope

The class of diplomatic immunity is determined by the host country based upon the concept of Quid pro quo and is verified by a list maintained by the host government's office of foreign affairs. If you are on the list, you have a certain class of diplomatic immunity, if you are not on the list, you do not have diplomatic immunity and it is not retroactive. Just because you have a Diplomatic Passport does not mean that you are covered by diplomatic immunity

The statement bandied about concerning Consulates versus Embassies has absolutely nothing to do with their diplomatic immunity status. You can be assigned to an Embassy and not have diplomatic immunity yet be assigned to a Consulate and have diplomatic immunity, once again based upon the various classes of immunity

I will restate, the chart is just a guide for quick reference, specifics are contained in the diplomatic agreements negotiated between countries under the guidelines covered by the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations

Which is what I said in post #6 when I first provided a link to said chart (albeit in a replicated but identical form):

According to he table here Diplomatic_immunity (which may or may not be correct), consular workers do not have the same diplomatoc cover as diplomatic staff in the USA - so why expect other countries to differ?

It bwas the fact that USA expects different treatment for their special passport holders than they afford themselves

[softgeorge]

<deleted> Demand. By the powers invested in me by myself I DEMAND thee to release our murdering citizen. Pakistan has a legal system let it run it's course. If the shoe was on the other foot then this is what would happen. No country has the right to interfer in the law of another. No country should demand and try and force another to forego thier legal process.

[koheesti]

<deleted> Demand. By the powers invested in me by myself I DEMAND thee to release our murdering citizen. Pakistan has a legal system let it run it's course. If the shoe was on the other foot then this is what would happen. No country has the right to interfer in the law of another. No country should demand and try and force another to forego thier legal process.

Let the Pakistan legal system run its course? I know you're being sarcastic but some here might take you serious.

No one in their right mind would trust the legal system in Pakistan - including Pakistanis themselves. Pakistan ranks 143 out of 178 on the list of corrupt nations. I'm sure that spreads to their legal system as well.

http://transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results

[LaoPo]

Judge: U.S. diplomat to be held for eight more days in Pakistan

By the CNN Wire StaffFebruary 3, 2011 -- Updated 0907 GMT (1707 HKT)

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- A Pakistani judge has ordered that a U.S. consular employee accused of killing two Pakistanis can be held for eight more days, a court official said Thursday.

Raymond Davis will remain in the custody of Pakistani authorities in the latest ruling related to the killing of two Pakistani boys late January.

The decision is an extension of a ruling a judge made earlier this week.

The American was driving in a busy area known as Kartaba Chawk when two boys on a motorcycle tried to rob him, police official Faisal Rana, has said. The American shot both boys, he said.

The U.S. Embassy has defended Davis' actions.

Article continues here:

http://edition.cnn.c...rss_igoogle_cnn

LaoPo

[wolf5370]

Is it just me, or are there other's that read the Bangkok Post or Thaivisa.com who can actually understand a report written in English. The report clearly stated, but I will paraphrase, "Armed criminals who just committed a life-threatening crime on another person was obviously attempting to do the same on what they must of thought to be easy prey and a big catch got blown away by a cool-headed, self-reliant, well-trained, courageous American who properly, legally, and morally justifiably killed the dirty bas\tar\ds". That would make it 100% self-defense regardless of diplomatic immunity or not, so what is all this mindless debate over immunity or no immunity - its an irrelevant point so go back to dipping your hand in you shorts on another site. What is so frickin' hard for you lame twits to understand here?

So what has self defence got to do with anything. He still shot and killed 2 people. so I doubt that a plea of self defence. laws change from Country to Country for example if you killed someone in self defence in the UK you would still be very likely to get jail time. I guess that this does no apply in the US, but maybe does apply on Pakistan.

I can see the correlation in laws between Pakistan and the UK, wasn't Pakistan one of you subjugated, controlled, and raped countries of past (British East India company ring a bell)? And, I think it was the US that principally forced the UK to abandoned such repressive colonialism after WWII. So I consider opinions about the ills of America to be as hypocritical as possible coming from someone in the UK considering there wouldn't even be a UK if the US didn't keep bailing your a$$ out, even today, your banks and economy have all but collapsed and would certainly have if the US's friendship to your stink-water island didn't produce massive amounts of commerce keeping you alive.

As far as self-defense. If the police in the US can clearly see that you defended your self (maybe as a result of witnesses), you will unlikely go to jail. If it is not clear, then you might go until a police report can be submitted to the district attorney, but even then, you might not. You might be arrested after the police conduct an investigation. If it is still not clear and there is any indication that the shooting was not to protect yourself as the result of having a fear for your life, then you might be arraigned of charges. But you don't just go to jail unless there is some evidence that you did something wrong.

Nope - Pakistan didn't exist before the British took India - and when the British pulled out it was still India - East and West Pakistan formed afterwards (after Gandhi was assissinated - he wanted a united India). Pakistan movement (partly political, partly radicalised - terrorist) were fighting the Indians from the mid 30's. Well after the British had left - and East Pakistan and West Pakistan existed, look what happened between them in 1971! Pakistan raped Pakistan (or Bangladesh as its now known).

"The US that principally forced the UK to abandoned such repressive colonialism after WWII" - nope, not really - money did - after fighting the second world war against most of Europe twice - and being in hok to the Johnny-come-lately (again!) Americans after their "help with supplies" charged at 2% (eventually paid off in 2006!) - Britain simply could not afford an Empire any more. America did not join in the effort in Europe to "bailing your a$$ out"[sic] it was known that there were two likely outcomes - Facist or Communist Europe - America wanted neither as its biggest trading partner. So the choice for the USA - loose over $4billion dollars in loan money made to the UK to help after WWI and on the run up to WWII (and all that lovely interest), loose their biggest trading partners, fight the Japanese who had already attacked without the aid of using the British Islands in the Pacific, British Burma and India (the biggest single fighting force in the world at that time) - or step up to the plate.

Oh, and just when is the US going to return Texas and New Mexico to the Mexicans? or Hawaii back to the Hawaiians? Ask any Filipino how happy they were to have the Americans extended stay after chasing the Japenese off 60 years before!

And just what caused the world's banks/economies to suffer so much? Wouldn't be the collapse of the US building bubble in 2006 would it? The selling, internationally, of sub prime debt?

Stink-Water? Yep - the stink is certainly coming from over the water!

Without the USA Britain wouldn't exist? Of course it would, thery would just have German accents now - or Russian - and of course without the UK, the USA would be speaking French - so what is your point?

So, before you spout your uneducated twaddle and make yourself look a right plum (again) - I suggest you try reading first.