Cambodia Threatens To Open Fire On Thailand

[ballpoint]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

And according to which source do you come up with idea that Thailand has 10 times more tanks? or better military?

Do you forget which on of the 2 has been in the war for a number of years and who stil has landmines all over the place

What are they going to do? Dig them all up and move them to Thailand?

[sharecropper]

If they wished to be statesman-like about settling this, they could make an application to the International Court of Justice for a Declaratory Ruling on where the border should lie, or very easily request the setting up a UN body to demarcate it, although as has been said above, Thailand still cannot believe it lost the original case, so it is unlikely to accept a new independent body that didn't give them what they want either.

[kuffki]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

And according to which source do you come up with idea that Thailand has 10 times more tanks? or better military?

Do you forget which on of the 2 has been in the war for a number of years and who stil has landmines all over the place

What are they going to do? Dig them all up and move them to Thailand?

its not about moving it, but it does show which military is more hands on or rather more experiences in real life combat. Also do not need to move it, half of Thai military could get blown up just by moving on Cambodian land. Cambodians themselves get killed very often by those landmines.

[Buchholz]

The road construction project was initiated in 2008 by

Hun Mana, the sister of Cambodia's Premier Hun sen.

Hun Mana is not the sister of Hun Sen, she is his daughter and a millionairess boss of Bayon Television and Radio.

In this photo she is 3rd from the right in the back row.

Other attendees for this gala event, on the couch, are banned TRT MP and former First Lady Yaowapa, Hun Sen's wife Bun Rany, Hun Sen, banned TRT PM Thaksin and banned PPP PM Somchai.

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Hun Mana, the Director-General of Bayon Television and Radio, will help her father to make 'proper reports'

PRIME Minister Hun Sen has appointed his daughter, Hun Mana, as an assistant to his office in the new government, one of her colleagues at Bayon TV said Tuesday.

Opposition Sam Rainsy Party spokesman Son Chhay said that the ruling party wastes a lot of state budget on advisers and assistants, adding that Hun Sen has roughly 1,000 people helping in those positions.

He claimed that most of them do little for their official capacities.

http://ki-media.blogspot.com/2008/09/welcome-to-century-of-hun-dynastys-rule.html

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Try Heng, the owner of the Kampuchea Thmei, one of Cambodia’s largest newspapers, announced that Hun Mana, Hun Sen’s daughter and director-general of Bayon TV and radio, is set to take control of the Kampuchea Thmei.

The Cambodia Daily reported that, according to Try Heng, Hun Mana will receive 80% of the newspaper revenues. Try Heng also claimed that he offered the majority ownership of the newspaper to the PM’s daughter “without her paying any money for the privilege” (i.e., free of charge?). “The reason she wants to have shares is because she loves Kampuchea Thmei,” Try Heng was quoted by the Cambodia Daily as saying.

In its September 16-30 edition, the Free Press Magazine online reported that the 80% control of the Kampuchea Thmei in fact came at a cost of $750,000 to Cambodia’s media mogul Hun Mana. Needless to say that with her family sitting at the top of food chain in Cambodia’s Family Trees (also known as “Family of the Thieves of the Nation” in Khmer), the ¾ million dollar cost to acquire the interest in the Kampuchea Thmei must have been chump change that can be characterized as “nearly free.”

http://ki-media.blogspot.com/2009/10/media-mogul-hun-mana-offered-80-of.html

[Nisa]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

And according to which source do you come up with idea that Thailand has 10 times more tanks? or better military?

Do you forget which on of the 2 has been in the war for a number of years and who stil has landmines all over the place

What are they going to do? Dig them all up and move them to Thailand?

its not about moving it, but it does show which military is more hands on or rather more experiences in real life combat. Also do not need to move it, half of Thai military could get blown up just by moving on Cambodian land. Cambodians themselves get killed very often by those landmines.

Lets hope they don't need to move the tanks by rail. The Reds showed how little it takes to stop a military train.

[applez]

WOW...It seems a lot of members here seem to have loss a lot of their common sense.

Maybe if they stop paying for the cheap sex to their numerous Thai "girlfriends" who claim they love them and NOT for their money they can see that Thailand is the instigator to this whole mess. I would really like type more but when these people are in a country that resembles a candy store so to speak their judgement to this border issue is very one sided to the Thai side. Obviously because their whole head is in this Thai candy store.....

[animatic]

It's over oil ladden seabed, nationalistic face and possibly Thaksin stirring the pot still.

I can see the last two, but how does this tiny area a couple hundred kilometers from the ocean affect the ocean boundary?

I believe the poster who used this term "oil ladden seabed" [sic] is referring to an ancient oil-laden seabed which has been thrust up as a result of tectonic plate action over the centuries. This probably gives the "burnt rock" look of the area surrounding the southern slopes of the temple. Truly an ugly, dismal-looking piece of land.

There are disputed areas of seabed where there are very likely hydrocarbon deposits. I think both the governments consider any compromise shown at Prear Vihear would weaken their position vis-a-vis the bigger prize offshore.

Exactly.

They are rather poorly trying to work out their negotiations and agreement methods over this temple, but the subtext and Thaksin/Hun Sen main interest, is the seabed oil. And a similar Line Of Demarcation

in dispute.

I have little doubt that big oil interests want this stirred up, and so discretely finance TPN, without telling them the real reasons; so not coincidentally, the oil to sea line can ALSO get moved during a war action across a large front.

Follow the money, since money means face and face rules.

Edited January 31, 2011 by animatic

[animatic]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

And according to which source do you come up with idea that Thailand has 10 times more tanks? or better military?

Do you forget which on of the 2 has been in the war for a number of years and who stil has landmines all over the place

Thailand hasn't fought a real battle since it lost in a short long weekend to japan...

Cambodia has 10s of thousands of fighters who DO remember how it's done from personal experience.

The grunts may be young but they have combat vets to lead them.

[animatic]

It's over oil ladden seabed, nationalistic face and possibly Thaksin stirring the pot still.

I can see the last two, but how does this tiny area a couple hundred kilometers from the ocean affect the ocean boundary?

Looking at the Thai Cambo sea border, following one line south makes a lot of sea bead Thailands,

but it abruptly takes a left turn west, which side of which islands it goes even 1/2 ° means at minimum

hundres of millions of dollars on oil revenue. A trumped up war over one border spot, means

the WHOLE border gets militarized, with the usual push and pull, and that means broders change with the winners...

[DP25]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/IndoChina1886.jpg

Yup. Cambodian is in trouble if it comes to a military conflict. Last time we saw M60s (Thailand) versus run down T-55s (Cambodia and they don't have many that work) was in the first Iraq War. Militarily Thailand is overwhelming compared to their neighbor.

[animatic]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

Yup. Cambodian is in trouble if it comes to a military conflict. Last time we saw M60s (Thailand) versus run down T-55s (Cambodia and they don't have many that work) was in the first Iraq War. Militarily Thailand is overwhelming compared to their neighbor.

If they have the experience and the balls to use them properly of course.

[housepainter]

We used to have an open fire when I was a kid. The coalman delivered sacks of nutty slack, I'd cut the kindling, which we bought in bundles from the co-op, and then screwed up the used newspaper. Swan vesta and the lot was away. I even remember the chimney sweep.

I was only about 8 when I learned how to make the fire. Freezing cold on a morning unable to blow any life into the ashes.

In Winter we used to invite the neighbours in when it was roaring away and have steaming cups of cocoa, eight to a bed and the smallest got to sleep with the dog.

It was all before gas, national health, slum clearence, polio jabs or central heating and makes me about 114 years old now. Two world wars and one world cup and it all seems like yesterday.

Then they invented the telegraph and the rest is history.

I think something must be lost in translation here. How can you threaten neighbours with an open fire?

And then there's bonfire night - a real good get together that was. We used to roast a neighbour's child, a sickly one that wouldn't eat until the council said it was bad for your health. Bad because they made it a hanging offence.

Ah happy days.

[baboon]

Stop it both of you and take a look at Korea.They hate each other far more than Thailand and Cambodia do,yet they maintain rail,road and sea links,not to mention the joint security area at Panmunjom.If they can co operate [no matter how reluctantly],so can you without sending your youngsters out to die.

[Oberkommando]

Cambodia would give Thailand a very bloody nose if it came to armed conflict and Cambodia will not be seen as the aggressor in the eyes of the international community. Everybody seems to forget (or maybe they just don't know the region very well) that Viet Nam is very friendly with Cambodia and would probably step in if push came to shove. That would swing the odds completely against Thailand as Viet Nam has by far the biggest military in the region. They've fought the Thais before when Thailand supported the Khmer Rouge in the last days of the regime and when Pol Pot lived in Trat Province while the Thais gave training to Khmer Rouge cadres.

Thailand is not exempt from atrocities including the Preah Vihear Massacre where thousands of fleeing Khmer civilians were raped, robbed and driven back over cliffs and through minefields by Thai military.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Oberkommando

[warfie]

Quote Ripley (Aliens 2) "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure".

[warfie]

What's the big deal over who "owns" this particular piece of dirt?

[jayjay0]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

True

Problem being they know what they are doing.

[phetaroi]

We are in the year 2011, we are confronted with a ridiculous conflict between two nations (one much more developed than the other) and why the heck is there not a way to discuss this matter in a civilized, meaningful way?

I am still puzzled which side is playing foul, as there is this UN agreement etc....

I see a similar situation in regard to many Thai issues -- the Red Shirts, the problem in the South, the Phreah Wihar situation, and others. "We want to have our way exactly, na na na na na na" coupled with "if we just do nothing it all work itself out."

Certainly the Thais aren't the only group of people that take this stance, but it's rampant in Thailand. Any idea of negotiation or coming to a common ground is just not there.

[jayjay0]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

And according to which source do you come up with idea that Thailand has 10 times more tanks? or better military?

Do you forget which on of the 2 has been in the war for a number of years and who stil has landmines all over the place

What are they going to do? Dig them all up and move them to Thailand?

its not about moving it, but it does show which military is more hands on or rather more experiences in real life combat. Also do not need to move it, half of Thai military could get blown up just by moving on Cambodian land. Cambodians themselves get killed very often by those landmines.

And they know what to look for. it would take Thailand a hundred years to get back the face they would lose.

[phetaroi]

Wasn't this whole thing decided on in a number of court cases and the UN with Thailand coming out the loser? After 100 years isn't it about time Thailand let this go? I am fairly confident they could work something out with Cambodia to prevent Thailand from losing face in terms of shared access to the temple. I mean when all is said and done it is not like this is some big source of revenue or strategic military location. It is just symbolic and although I could be wrong, it appears the Cambodians have been fairly accommodating in terms of dealing with this issue ... especially given the fact the temple land is legally recognized as their land.

In the school where I used to be Principal (in Virginia), we had a Cambodian custodian. She knew how much I liked Thailand, and I'm telling you that every once in a while she would get so wound up about how the Thais stole Cambodia. She could not understand that over historical time borders evolve, and she was adamant that the Thais should give back every bit of land "they stole" from Cambodia, and that the borders should return to how they were when the Khmer Empire was at it strongest. And I mean, she was adamant about it. All logic went out the window.

[phetaroi]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/IndoChina1886.jpg

So Miss Thai, might makes right? So based on your simplistic principle, if China wanted to take over Thailand, so be it.

[Oberkommando]

In the school where I used to be Principal (in Virginia), we had a Cambodian custodian. She knew how much I liked Thailand, and I'm telling you that every once in a while she would get so wound up about how the Thais stole Cambodia. She could not understand that over historical time borders evolve, and she was adamant that the Thais should give back every bit of land "they stole" from Cambodia, and that the borders should return to how they were when the Khmer Empire was at it strongest. And I mean, she was adamant about it. All logic went out the window.

It's no surprise she was angry, the land grabbing by Thailand was going on well into the 80's, using war and civil conflict to encroach onto Cambodian territory, notably during WWII, when the fascist dictator Phibunsongkram fought the French then had to cede back the land after the Allied victory in 1945.

The Thais have a history on all their borders of encroachment, land grabbing and bullying, you only need to see the four former Malay provinces in the South as an example and if the British had not intervened they would have claimed sovereignty over a further seven more at least.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Oberkommando

[bbradsby]

REligious sites are hugely important culturally to Thailand, Israel, Palestine... But leaving that aside for now, the '62 UN decision to cede the land to Cambodia was evidently based on a French-drawn (colonial?) map and nothing the Thais ever accepted as historically based. So the '62 'decision' means nothing to the Thais except a bitter memory.

Then, take the centuries-long view and factor in the Thai sensitivity to losing territory over history to the Burmese, then to the British via its Burma colony, and to the French to the East & North in their colonial expansions. Even currently in the South, many Thais believe the troubles are a Malay, if not Malaysian, plot to take that land from the Kingdom. Who can disagree?

Losing even a small sliver of land is a red-hot button for Thailand. Add a cultural/historical/religious piece of history and you get a ticking package.

[DP25]

Stop it both of you and take a look at Korea.They hate each other far more than Thailand and Cambodia do,yet they maintain rail,road and sea links,not to mention the joint security area at Panmunjom.If they can co operate [no matter how reluctantly],so can you without sending your youngsters out to die.

What? You think the Koreas get along better? A North Korean submarine sunk a South Korean naval ship killing 46 people early last year, then followed it up by launching an artillery bombardment on a South Korean village in November. North and South Koreans can not freely cross the border, they have the most heavily fortified border in the world and if you try to cross it you will be shot or blown up by a mine. North Koreans are PRISONERS in their own country, they risk death trying to get to South Korea.

Thailand and Cambodia though have many sea and road links, and once Cambodia gets functioning railroads they will have a rail link too. Hundreds of thousands of Cambodian work in Thailand, and locals and tourists cross the border freely every day.

Besides the fact that any militarily a conflict would end in disaster for Cambodia, economically they are too dependent to do anything. Too many desperately impoverished people rely on family members working in Thailand to survive. Too many daily goods are imported from Thailand. Hopefully this all just going to end up being posturing for elections

[wolf5370]

The issue isn't so much the temple itself, but the land around it.

If you look at the aerial photo, taken from the Korat magazine website, you can clearly see that the temple sits on a triangular plateau, and is bounded by cliffs. Thailand is to the left, Cambodia to the right. Rather than draw the border along the natural cliff edge, which would put the temple and all the land around it in the hands of Thailand, the French map artificially truncated this triangular plateau in order to place the temple in Cambodia. The 1962 ruling was purely to decide on whether the temple belonged to Thailand or Cambodia. It ruled in favour of the latter, but failed to clearly demarcate the actual border across the plateau, leading to the 4.6 sq. km currently in dispute. For the Cambodians to mobilise their army, and actually make threats of war, because a small bunch of nationalists are holding a protest in Bangkok, speaks volumes about just how "civilised' at least one of the sides is.

Don't kid yourself. It is ALL about the temple and everything else is just bitterness over the temple. The boundaries were drawn on a map that Thailand accepted and distributed throughout Thailand as an official map. Regardless if this was a mistake or not, it happened and the land belongs to Cambodia as does the temple built by the Khmer Empire (Cambodia) 1,000 years ago. There are no resources Thailand is interested regarding their claimed disputes of land around the temple. It is simply a way to act as a bitter loser in a battle. Regardless who the land and temple should belong to, the fact remains Cambodia won the rights to the land and the map created in the early 1900's contains the official boundary.

I would love for Thailand to be the victor in this but the fact remains they lost and it is time to move on and work out an agreement with Cambodia for equal access to the area and I am sure Cambodia would oblige.

While it seems logical, ancient history is actually quite a silly argument when you think about it.

First off, what does the term "Empire" mean? It means a country powerful enough to take over other lands - i.e. not their own. The British Empire once held most of America, Australia, India, Pakistan, Middle East, tracts of Africa, half of France - so its ours! Give it back - you have no argument!

Second, in continuation of the first - 500 years before the Khmer Empire, the only kingdoms in Thailand was the Dvarvati who were Mons (i.e. Burmese) - and before that (3rd century AD) - Funan (the predecessors to both the Mons and the Khmer - it is believed - ad possibly/probably Austronesian) spread right across SE Asia from Vietnam to Burma and as far south as Malaysia. Some maps: Maps. Therefore, it is most likely that the same people make up all 3 modern nations - as all were also over-run by the Chinese (stories in China and Khmer stories tell of a Chinese prince marrying the Funan - which is the Chinese name and only name known for the kingdom! - queen - and by all accounts it seemed many Chinese settled all over - a candy store!). We know there have been people in Thailand/Cambodia and Myanmar for at least 20,000 years because remains of settlements etc have been found.

So, in short, using history as a reason for land ownership is silly - peoples/borders/kingdoms - changed many times over. In such an area it is likely that all the peoples have the same blood running through their veins. Cambodia is Cambodia, not the Khmer Empire - or Funan - or Chenla - or any of those ancient people and places - they may well be descendents, but so is every "native" in the area from Vietnam to Myanmar to souther Thailand. At which point to we say that relevant history started ? that those people were the original owners? and ignore those that came before. We could, possibly more justifiably in some ways, suggest that it should be based on the last point in history BEFORE the foreign imperial powers starting dicing up the land.

Wheels within wheels. As arguably and as unwinnable (in logic at least) as the Holy Lands.

Edited January 31, 2011 by wolf5370

[bkksteviejai]

Interesting article regarding martime border dispute and O & G potential (proven vs unproven reserves)

http://www.clc-asia.com/analysis/the-struggle-between-thailand-and-cambodia-over-oil-and-gas-resources/

Have a gander.

[Robby nz]

Then again the fingerprints of a former advisor to Hun Sen could be all over this one.

Now if his resignation was all for show like his divorse then........

Could a deal already have been reached?

'When I get back as PM a sudden agreement will be reached with Thailand paying the expenses.'

10% off the top for each of the heroes of course.

After all instability in TL has been the way things have been done and are still being attempted, like with the ICC thing.

He has indeed, just last weekend, said he has a magic solution for all Thailands troubles should he get to be PM again.

Aint imagination a great thing?

[nong38]

If Thailand and Cambodia profess to be civilized, then they should both stop sabre rattling and get down to talks, even after fighting there has to be talks to find the end solution, so why dont they both go to the end game, sit down and talk? If its so important why do they not arrange talks now, even if its just to find out what the other sides position is and what is the minimum they will accept? I guess the main difficulty is the upcoming General Election so let to a bit of prep and sort it out once and for all after the new govt takes its place, the current situation is unacceptable as is fighting, neighbours should sort it out in a civilized way.

What is there to discuss?? It has already been decided! In June1962,the International Court of Justice weighed all the evidence --- and decided that the Preah Vihear Temple was in Cambodia. Thailand had presented arguments to the court that the Temple was in Thailand. These arguments failed.

http://www.scribd.co...of-Preah-Vihear

Why would any country cede part of its territory to another?? -- particularly under threat of military action.

These current military actions by Cambodia are possibly re-actions to threats of military force by Thailand if they did not get what they want over this (already settled) matter. Not just threats from the " crazies" --- but from the Prime Minster (when addressing a meeting of the PAD last week) ---- he told them that if the matter was not settled (to Thai satisfaction) Thailand would cancel the year 2000 Memorandum of Understanding between the two countries and use both diplomatic and military means to resolve the matter.

Does anyone -- faced with these most un-diplomatic threats -- propose that Cambodia should sit on its hands and do nothing?

Well Thailand still thinks it has case and it needs to be talked about to try and get a solution without anyone losing face, this could easily escalate into a full blown conflict, I hope that what is in the public domain for public consumption is different to what is being said in the quiet corridors of power, I wish Abhisit and his Cambodian counterpart well this is a tough one.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Maestro
Corrected Prime Minister's name

[Darkman]

We are in the year 2011, we are confronted with a ridiculous conflict between two nations (one much more developed than the other) and why the heck is there not a way to discuss this matter in a civilized, meaningful way?

I am still puzzled which side is playing foul, as there is this UN agreement etc....

Because this dispute was heard and a ruling was made by a World Court in 1962. Thailand lost. That's how long this has been going on and how silly it gets; we do not like the Court verdict so we will ignore it. Stick my fingers in my ears la la la la la la la la la.

Yeh, if they can't even come to an agreement between themselves, yellow and red shirts, what chance is there with Cambodia. Don't they have enough temples to visit or are they jealous that Cambodia has all the world famous oldies like Angkor Wat and now this place.

[barrybankruad]

For every tank that Cambodia mobilize, Thailand can mobilize 10 tanks. Thailand can easily out number the Cambodian. http://upload.wikime...doChina1886.jpg

This is a worrying situation. I live on the Cambodian border and of late have noticed an increase in air activity. Yesterday four helicopters of the Thai Air Force flew up and down the border. In addition a few days ago a squadron of F26's did likewise.