Red Shirts Should Try Thai Courts Before Using Thaksin Lawyer Amsterdam To File Case In World Court

[webfact]

Letting the World Know

In its latest attempt to overthrow the Abhisit administration, the red shirt group has turned to the infamous legal counsel of arguably more infamous Thaksin Shinawatra, Robert Amsterdam. The group has handed over its grievances on the government's handling of its uprising last year, which ended with 91 deaths and thousands of injuries, to Amsterdam who in turn has compiled a crimes against humanity case against the administration for the International Criminal Court.

The leaders of the red clad movement have reasoned that due to failures within the Thai justice system, it can no longer be trusted to handle Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's many transgressions. The group has cited that through political intervention, the court system in the Kingdom has been twisted away from searching for the truth towards persecuting the movement itself while announcing that the injustices it has suffered must be made known to the world.

The red shirt group actually notes that its approach of the international court through Amsterdam is only one of many steps it is prepared to take to bring members of the Abhisit administration to justice. The battle cry of the movement has now become that reconciliation must be based on justice and truth, implying that these two fundamentals remain elusive within the country.

Robert Amsterdam is not only infamous by Thai standards, but is well known around the world for taking up the cases of the questionable individuals. Amsterdam's brand of jurisprudence has been employed on multiple occasions by Thaksin, making it no surprise that he is now serving the ousted premier's following. In a notable bit of cunning, Amsterdam has pointed out that Abhisit's English citizenship makes it obligatory for him to answer to the world court, but the prime minister has largely brushed off the threat saying that Amsterdam is merely “doing the job he was hired to do”.

The red shirt group is right, reconciliation must be based on justice and truth and all means must be sought to bring both justice and truth to light. What it must realize is that the sentiment goes both ways and that its approach of the International Criminal Court is a gamble, at best.

The group can argue that Thailand's judicial system is corrupt until its blue in the face, but it will not silence the many that still believe and respect Thai courts. The movement's leaders can state that their trials are not fair, but until they actually submit to the trials with sincerity, they cannot fully state that they have been mistreated. The world can and will know the truth sooner or later, but there is no guarantee it will be the “truth” the red shirts subscribe to, which begs the question, is the red shirt group truly ready for the outcomes it is seeking?

Daily News, February 2, 2011

Translated and Rewritten by Itiporn Lakarnchua

Please note that the views expressed in our "Analysis" segment are translated from local newspaper articles and do not reflect the views of the Thai-ASEAN News Network.

-- Tan Network 2011-02-03

[SomTumTiger]

Perhaps we need an "Opinion Clippings" Section - because there is no news to be found in this.

[londonthai]

I wouldn't expect the government and army to slap themselves for the killings, rather some more of the washup.

don't relay on thai justice system, it's as much corrupt as the political class, government administration and police - that's why 10% of incarcerated are innocent.

the fish has rotten from the head a long time ago. There are some honest people left at the bottom of the society, and from those leyers the protesters come

[animatic]

Why would the red shirts expect any more justice in Thailand

than was given out when their leaders, have been in past control?

They KNOW that was minimal, or in many case non-existant,

and so assume every time they lose with their most always lame legal arguments,

that it MUST be because the courts are biased 100% against them,

and never consider for an instant that their legal reasonings are mostly at fault.

So now they let someone they imagine is a world class lawyer' make their arguments,

and the PR battle that goes with it. Of course he works are questionable on a world class basis

in much the same way as theirs are at home. But they now get the whole worlds eyes focused

on their ineptitude, and that's gotta hurt, if they realize it's actually reality the world will be seeing.

[Insight]

2Bangkok.com has nailed what's happening in Thailand right now: Thaksin's Revolutionary Season

[Asa]

Thai Laws are good. Many judges, respectable. the court reliable? dunno...

[Buchholz]

2Bangkok.com has nailed what's happening in Thailand right now: Thaksin's Revolutionary Season

An excellent summation and assessment of events.

Thanks for pointing it out.

[phiphidon]

2Bangkok.com has nailed what's happening in Thailand right now: Thaksin's Revolutionary Season

An excellent summation and assessment of events.

Thanks for pointing it out.

So you agree with the articles statement that Army snipers shot and killed Seh Daeng?

[rubl]

I wouldn't expect the government and army to slap themselves for the killings, rather some more of the washup.

don't relay on thai justice system, it's as much corrupt as the political class, government administration and police - that's why 10% of incarcerated are innocent.

the fish has rotten from the head a long time ago. There are some honest people left at the bottom of the society, and from those leyers the protesters come

Strangely enough even k. Thaksin still uses the Thai courts and even wins cases. Surely something must be really rotten there

[rubl]

2Bangkok.com has nailed what's happening in Thailand right now: Thaksin's Revolutionary Season

An excellent summation and assessment of events.

Thanks for pointing it out.

So you agree with the articles statement that Army snipers shot and killed Seh Daeng?

The article states without giving proof, but it wouldn't really surprise me

[Buchholz]

2Bangkok.com has nailed what's happening in Thailand right now: Thaksin's Revolutionary Season

An excellent summation and assessment of events.

Thanks for pointing it out.

So you agree with the articles statement that Army snipers shot and killed Seh Daeng?

The article states without giving proof, but it wouldn't really surprise me

The article doesn't even emphatically state that it was the Army that killed him, but it wouldn't really surprise me, either.

[alstaxi]

Let the red shirts spend Tacky's money as fast as they can, it will take a while but it can be all spent on stupidity.

[tragickingdom]

Unfortunately we have seen that the Thai courts are crooked. Judges that are compromised and corrupt (see the youtube video's) and Thai courts do what the elite says. There should not be any fear for the international courts in the Abhisit camp. They are all stand up people, the army never killed anyone, never shot people in a temple and the clips that prove otherwise are manipulated. Just as all the clips of judges taking money or defrauding applicants.

[rubl]

Unfortunately we have seen that the Thai courts are crooked. Judges that are compromised and corrupt (see the youtube video's) and Thai courts do what the elite says. There should not be any fear for the international courts in the Abhisit camp. They are all stand up people, the army never killed anyone, never shot people in a temple and the clips that prove otherwise are manipulated. Just as all the clips of judges taking money or defrauding applicants.

Judges taking money? You may be confused with the 'lunchbox' affair where lawyers for k. Thaksin handed a luncheon box filled with money and had it returned to them as 'that's not done'. They spent six months in jail I think (contempt of court or something the like).

Clips of judges taking money? Don't remember that. Please remind me where I can find such clips?

Edited February 3, 2011 by rubl

[SICHONSTEVE]

The red shirts should forget it. Full stop, as they are clearly wasting their time in whatever court they decide to take their farcical gripe about the government's handling in removing their unwarranted and unwise blockade. This was designed with one aim in mind and that was to disrupt (and later destroy) many Bangkokian's livelihoods with their guerrila style arsonist tactics. The wanton burning of shopping malls and other buildings was not only scandalous in it's own right but was actually prompted by the red shirt leaders immediately prior to their humiliating arrests and subsequent deserved charges of inciting terrorist activities. They should have known that the responsibility of the ensuing evil deeds would fall fair and square on their shoulders, especially being that they were videoed and recorded encouraging their hardliners to partake in this senseless retaliation to the removal of the already disintegrating stand against Abhisit and the Democrats.

I think that it would make the Pheua Thai party appear even weaker than it already is, so maybe it's a sensible idea after all - so go ahead with your doomed actions. The good thing is that it will relieve that "gangster" Shinawatra of some more of his fraudulently obtained riches (some of it was probably earned legitimately, admittedly) but I wish that he would stay out of politics in the mean time as it's just sour grapes on his part which is not helping Thailand get back on to it's feet, incidentally!!!

[Crushdepth]

The group can argue that Thailand's judicial system is corrupt until its blue in the face

Was it not a judge that caught Thaksin's lawyer red-handed trying to bribe court officials with a 'snack box' full of money?

Who has the conviction and the credibility problem here

[brahmburgers]

"I'm gonna take my problems to the United Nations"

Eddie Cochrane

I remember vividly, when I was a hot-headed kid, ....when someone in my family accused me of something that wasn't true, man, I got mad, and got seized on the idea of proving my truth - to the highest court in the land.

The Red Shirts are following Thaksin's angry-headed lead, and are going to set new heights (or lows) for shooting themselves and in dem dare feets. Maybe there's some omni powerful court out there in the Universe they could take their grievances to.

[ib1b4]

as the article states the story has been translated and re written from a number of sourses, so you would expect a lot of miss information would be in this article.

[DP25]

2Bangkok.com has nailed what's happening in Thailand right now: Thaksin's Revolutionary Season

Great article and spot on.

Quite ridiculous the abysmal quality of 'journalism' about Thailand and Thai politics when there are such capable sources out there such as 2bangkok. Really puts to shame all the major news agencies time and time again.

[ballpoint]

The article doesn't even emphatically state that it was the Army that killed him, but it wouldn't really surprise me, either.

You must admit though that it makes things a lot easier for the reds in cases like this to not have him around blabbering about grenade attacks.

[animatic]

The article doesn't even emphatically state that it was the Army that killed him, but it wouldn't really surprise me, either.

You must admit though that it makes things a lot easier for the reds in cases like this to not have him around blabbering about grenade attacks.

The fact he was such an obvious loose cannon, makes it that much harder to even fathom a guess at 'who done it'. So many competing motives.

Edited February 3, 2011 by animatic

[Buchholz]

The article doesn't even emphatically state that it was the Army that killed him, but it wouldn't really surprise me, either.

You must admit though that it makes things a lot easier for the reds in cases like this to not have him around blabbering about grenade attacks.

The fact he was such an obvious loose cannon, makes it that much harder to even fathom a guess at 'who done it'. So many competing motives.

Yes, as equally as it wouldn't really surprise me to learn that the Army did it, would be to learn that businessmen losing money or Thaksin to silence him or Red Shirt Leaders to wrest control back from him, or several other possibilities did it.

.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Buchholz

[Insight]

The article doesn't even emphatically state that it was the Army that killed him, but it wouldn't really surprise me, either.

You must admit though that it makes things a lot easier for the reds in cases like this to not have him around blabbering about grenade attacks.

... or Thaksin's "orders" ...

My opinion is that this guy couldn't lead the way out of a wet paper bag, never mind lead the so called MiB, and was nothing more than a loud mouth "front man" to rally the red shirt civilian "hardcore" (sling shot and molotov guys).

He did start getting a bit too loud about the demands of his master in the aftermath of a very sensitive hospital raid, however. Fortunately for his boss he came down with a bit of a migraine before he got too carried away.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Insight

[jayboy]

"The group can argue that Thailand's judicial system is corrupt until its blue in the face, but it will not silence the many that still believe and respect Thai courts.

The movement's leaders can state that their trials are not fair, but until they actually submit to the trials with sincerity, they cannot fully state that they have been mistreated.

The world can and will know the truth sooner or later, but there is no guarantee it will be the “truth” the red shirts subscribe to, which begs the question, is the red shirt group truly ready for the outcomes it is seeking?"

So by any reasonable standard what would a knowledgeable, disinterested outsider say about the proposition in the first sentence?

Why should anybody have faith in a judicial system clearly mobilised to achieve political objectives?

By definition if the Reds have submitted a case to the ICC they are ready to accept the outcome.It's not the Reds that have been prevaricating, and obfuscating about the civilian deaths in Bangkok earlier this year.Of course the ICC will never consider the case but let's be clear, it's the Thai elite, particularly the army, that doesn't tolerate transparency or scrutiny.

[whybother]

"The group can argue that Thailand's judicial system is corrupt until its blue in the face, but it will not silence the many that still believe and respect Thai courts.

The movement's leaders can state that their trials are not fair, but until they actually submit to the trials with sincerity, they cannot fully state that they have been mistreated.

The world can and will know the truth sooner or later, but there is no guarantee it will be the "truth" the red shirts subscribe to, which begs the question, is the red shirt group truly ready for the outcomes it is seeking?"

So by any reasonable standard what would a knowledgeable, disinterested outsider say about the proposition in the first sentence?

Why should anybody have faith in a judicial system clearly mobilised to achieve political objectives?

By definition if the Reds have submitted a case to the ICC they are ready to accept the outcome.It's not the Reds that have been prevaricating, and obfuscating about the civilian deaths in Bangkok earlier this year.Of course the ICC will never consider the case but let's be clear, it's the Thai elite, particularly the army, that doesn't tolerate transparency or scrutiny.

"Why should anybody have faith in a judicial system clearly mobilised to achieve political objectives?" - "the many that still believe and respect Thai courts."

What are the chances of the reds accepting the ICC dismissing the case? When the ICC say "it's not our problem", "it's not in our jurisdiction" or something along those lines, what do think the reds will do then?

[Buchholz]

What are the chances of the reds accepting the ICC dismissing the case? When the ICC say "it's not our problem", "it's not in our jurisdiction" or something along those lines, what do think the reds will do then?

They could resort to one of their favorite tools... fire... as they did in the past when a different foreign entity disappointed them:

The Nation: 14 Nov 2008

Pro-Thaksin protesters rally in front of UK Embassy in Bangkok

Some 150 supporters of convicted ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra rallied on Friday in front of UK Embassy in Bangkok, condemning the country for revoking Thaksin's visa.

They burnt effigies of British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Foreign Secretary of State David Miliband to show their anger after UK revoked visas of Thaksin and his wife; Khunying Pojaman.

About 150 police were deployed to provide security at the embassy.

[ballpoint]

When the ICC refuse to accept it then what's the bet that Thaksin gets fed up with the lack of immediate results and Amsterdam becomes the next name on the long list of those who've done business with him but are now enemies? His management style has been admirably summed up by Sven Goran Ericsson; when all is well he's smiles and best of friends, when things don't go as he wants then best stand clear of the debris as first the dummy is spat and then the toys get thrown out of the pram.

[Insight]

When the ICC refuse to accept it then what's the bet that Thaksin gets fed up with the lack of immediate results and Amsterdam becomes the next name on the long list of those who've done business with him but are now enemies? His management style has been admirably summed up by Sven Goran Ericsson; when all is well he's smiles and best of friends, when things don't go as he wants then best stand clear of the debris as first the dummy is spat and then the toys get thrown out of the pram.

Has his "paper" failed on the PR front? There's been much noise made about it from the pro-Thaksin apologists, yet I haven't seen any media outlet publish his (ridiculous) allegations as fact.

I would of thought that taking the case to the ICC on the extremely questionable premise of Abhisit being a UK citizen is dangerous at best.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Insight

[hanuman1]

Oooooh, that man Thaksin makes my blood boil, so he does. He's soooooooo naughty!!!!!!

I will be repeating this sentiment to the boredom of others in several other threads in future. Well, it's a public forum isn't it?

[thaihome]

[...There's been much noise made about it from the pro-Thaksin apologists, yet I haven't seen any media outlet publish his (ridiculous) allegations as fact.

...

Well, The Star ran with a story on January 30th by their supposed Legal Affairs Reporter that included this rather startling line:

A draft of the report, obtained by the Star, alleges Abhisit, along with senior government and army officials, began drawing up plans for suppressing anti-government protesters shortly after he assumed power in a military coup in 2006.

Rather hard to take anything seriously that has that sort of inaccuracies, but it is typical of the western media outlets that just run whatever Amsterdam gives them without any fact checking.

TH