Male Prostitutes Who Service Men Are Often Heterosexual

[SweatiePie]

While I agree with the rest of your post, and scorecard's, I don't agree with your view of what gays "generally" consider "normal .... acceptable", etc. This may be the view of a very small number of very prolific posters (and ex-posters) here, who constantly claim to be representative of or to "know" about the gay view, but the reality is that they represent nobody but themselves and their narrow-minded and outdated bigotry.

Most gays, in my experience, are broad-minded enough to realise that men who like straight (or straight-acting) men and men who like lady-boys/katoeys (and I use the term in its generally-recognised broad meaning, not with the very narrow meaning that the same posters give it here) are all part of the "queer community". The days when to be "gay" you had to be either a king or a queen, a clone or a twink, are long gone.

Sweatie Pie clearly just baited me and sadly for all of us, mostly me, it worked. (The flesh is weak.) I don't think anyone, (certainly not me!) speaks for all gay people. .............I humbly request this Sweatie Pie character (who let's face it, is on my case for some sick reason) to desist from putting words in my mouth or imagine thoughts I never had. Congrats on baiting me, but enough is enough of these fantastical fairy tales he is telling. .........

It is actually kind of funny, this guy is PROJECTING onto me something he dislikes, but that thing he is imagining is an abstract ILLUSION that has nothing to do with me or my own point of view. So he's arguing with a chimera. ...........

JT, you flatter yourself unjustifiably.

My post was not aimed at you, and consequently I am not putting words in your mouth, imagining thoughts that you never had, or, heaven forbid, baiting you or on your case. Nobody here, as far as I am aware, has specifically claimed to "speak for all gay people", including you, and I have never suggested that anyone has. If you are going to return here and throw such accusations around please do your homework first and at least do others the courtesy of reading what they say.

Some posters here (and there were and still are a few others here) have, however, claimed to "know" what gay people in general, and gays posting here in particular, think and to post about how gays "generally" feel and to know what "ALL Thais" know and how "all" those working in the bar scene think - their words, not mine (and not yours, I should add).

I am not "arguing" with anyone, least of all a she-goat*. There is nothing to argue about. I am simply saying that nobody here is in any position to claim to know what "all" gays (or even gays in general) or "all" Thais or "all" those working in the bar scene think or are, as an increasing number appear to be doing - in all fairness to you, JT, as well as in my defence, that is not something I have ever accused you of.

(*: chimera, for those without a classical education, originally referred to a she-goat, rather than a fire-breathing female monster)

[SweatiePie]

Is a gay man liking sex with a straight man the same thing as a straight man liking sex with lesbians? Is the motivation similar? As I see it a gay man would have to alter the sexual orientation of a straight guy like the straight guy would have to alter the sexual orientation of a lesbian. I find it challenging, stimulating, adventurous, even dangerous at times. Kind of a rush..........

Yes .........and no!

Yes, in that the motivation can be the same, and no, in that the motivation is not always to want to alter or even to want to enjoy the other participant's sexual orientation. In some cases the motivation is the reverse - just as sex with a lesbian would, to some extent, satisfy the desire of some straight men to dominate and even rape a woman who you knew was not enjoying the experience, so some gay men enjoy sex with "straight" men either because they like the feeling of domination and rape, or because they themselves like to be dominated and raped. On the other hand some gay men simply prefer "straight" or straight-looking men to openly gay or "fem" men (not that openly gay men are necessarily fem, far from it) in the same way that some people prefer fat women and some prefer slim men.

Its difficult (and rather short-sighted) to generalise.

(Just as I hope I'm not making a mistake by taking you seriously this time, even if "generally" that may be the case)

[SweatiePie]

Gay men/boys working in the scene are all 'gay' or 'bi'. Just occassionally a boy will tell you honestly that he is straight.

Once getting into a relationship, you'll find out that your partner suddenly has a sister who'd like to stay in your house or that he has a good friend somewhere.

Very well and concisely put.

Hardly. If "just occasionally" a boy is "honestly" straight then they evidently cannot be "all 'gay' or 'bi'" - you can't have it both ways (no pun intended). I am not nit-picking - just getting increasingly tired of people posting about their knowledge of what "all" gays, working men, ladyboys, etc are or are not.

I FINALLY figured it out, in that gay men, here, consistently, would "walk" in a slightly different manner than straight men... When a gay man walks... he has "poise", not a "swagger", meaning, if you watch their head and shoulders, you will see a very smooth stable "glide".

I'd put a 100% certification here too, but I KNOW this has to be taken as a generality, lest be "flamed", again, for stating generalities as certainties, lol...

Not flaming you, PC, but these absolutes are rather tedious and, to me at least, they negate points that otherwise have at least some validity - and if you think the way Asian and Thai men walk (even if they mince) is a positive indication of their sexual preference then probably the only thing you're gliding for is a fall!

[SweatiePie]

Yes, I can certainly believe that many men work in order to support their families. Some choose this kind of work, others that. Depends on how you "perform" in each kind of work. Some people prefer offices, others bars, and again others construction sites.

At last - a voice of sanity and reason crying in the wilderness!

Its WORK - purely business, nothing more, nothing less. Some are good at it, some aren't. Just because some appear to be enjoying it more than others that doesn't necessarily mean that they are, any more than it means that they are gay because they are or straight because they aren't - in many cases it just means those who seem to enjoy it are better actors and better able to "perform" (in all senses of the word). In some cases relationships between customers and clients can lead to something more serious, but so can similar (customer/client) relationships anywhere else. Its just work and, possibly because of the potential comparative financial rewards, those in the East seem better able to recognise and accept it as such than those in the West.

[Lancelot]

I remember a line from Private Dancer, "I can do anything if I think about the money..."

On the other hand, who cares?

[tombkk]

I FINALLY figured it out, in that gay men, here, consistently, would "walk" in a slightly different manner than straight men... When a gay man walks... he has "poise", not a "swagger", meaning, if you watch their head and shoulders, you will see a very smooth stable "glide".

I'd put a 100% certification here too, but I KNOW this has to be taken as a generality, lest be "flamed", again, for stating generalities as certainties, lol...

Not flaming you, PC, but these absolutes are rather tedious and, to me at least, they negate points that otherwise have at least some validity - and if you think the way Asian and Thai men walk (even if they mince) is a positive indication of their sexual preference then probably the only thing you're gliding for is a fall!

I have seen Thai gay men walking manly like John Wayne when in company of their parents. I have seen straight guys walking and posing like only gays would in the West.

Confusing as it is, it just proves (to me) what Pawpcorn said earlier: The labels "gay" vs "straight" don't make much sense over here.

That said, I know guys who would never sleep with men, and I know guys that would never sleep with women. But in my experience, they are the exception over here, whereas in the West they are the rule.

It's time for a research paper the size of the Kinsey Reports, but updated to this century and including Asians. Will somebody please fund this research for me? I think it will take 3-5 years to complete.

[Ijustwannateach]

Pawp, I don't know where you hang out, but I find eye contact is a significant part of making new connections with Thai gay men all the time. However, different things work for different people- may even be a simple matter of a difference in eyes or faces. I find that smiling tends to reinforce the right message...

Tom, I agree with you- the labels simply don't work cross-culturally (and maybe sometimes they don't even work that well 'back home')... Some guys definitely do enjoy getting physical with other guys, and unless we're picking out curtains I'm probably not going to ask too many sociocultural questions (but if we are picking out curtains, clearly I wouldn't want someone married, etc.). I don't deal with the prostitution scene itself, but I would imagine that with money and/or drugs added to the equation you would get a broader mix of motivations.

[Pawpcorn]

Pawp, I don't know where you hang out, but I find eye contact is a significant part of making new connections with Thai gay men all the time. However, different things work for different people- may even be a simple matter of a difference in eyes or faces. I find that smiling tends to reinforce the right message...

IJWT, I totally agree with you, it still all starts with eye contact, TOTALLY the necessary factor, along with an easy smile, to make those new connections.

In the prior post, I was responding to what the prior poster had said about "Gaydar"... thus I was only talking about "Gaydar" (being able to ascertain, as quickly as possible, whether a guy may be gay,) and differences in effective "gaydar rules" from the states, since in the states guys are so concerned about being perceived as gay; if they maintain eye contact for "too long" they're often paranoid about being perceived as gay.

And here, guys are rarely shy about looking at your eyes for long times... ie I was only saying extended gazes here aren't useful as a "gaydar" tool, that's all.

You're certainly right, without eye contact and facial communications to start things off... heck, it would be impossible to ever make new connections.

Take care

Edited February 20, 2011 by Pawpcorn

[tombkk]

Tom, I agree with you- the labels simply don't work cross-culturally (and maybe sometimes they don't even work that well 'back home')... Some guys definitely do enjoy getting physical with other guys, and unless we're picking out curtains I'm probably not going to ask too many sociocultural questions (but if we are picking out curtains, clearly I wouldn't want someone married, etc.). I don't deal with the prostitution scene itself, but I would imagine that with money and/or drugs added to the equation you would get a broader mix of motivations.

Cross-culturally, straight men in the West often find it offensive to be fancied by a gay guy, whereas in East, they take it as a compliment. It's a question of having your face rearranged or getting a smile as a response. This is my experience rather than a general truth, though. I would really like to make a socio-cultural scientific research on this.

Edited February 20, 2011 by tombkk

[tombkk]

Pawp, I don't know where you hang out, but I find eye contact is a significant part of making new connections with Thai gay men all the time. However, different things work for different people- may even be a simple matter of a difference in eyes or faces. I find that smiling tends to reinforce the right message...

IJWT, I totally agree with you, it still all starts with eye contact, TOTALLY the necessary factor, along with an easy smile, to make those new connections.

In the prior post, I was responding to what the prior poster had said about "Gaydar"... thus I was only talking about "Gaydar" (being able to ascertain, as quickly as possible, whether a guy may be gay,) and differences in effective "gaydar rules" from the states, since in the states guys are so concerned about being perceived as gay; if they maintain eye contact for "too long" they're often paranoid about being perceived as gay.

And here, guys are rarely shy about looking at your eyes for long times... ie I was only saying extended gazes here aren't useful as a "gaydar" tool, that's all.

You're certainly right, without eye contact and facial communications to start things off... heck, it would be impossible to ever make new connections.

Take care

IMHO there is a lot more to it than eye contact. Sometimes it's as easy as the say-it-all eye contact, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it's the walk or the talk, sometime4s it's just a feeling "we" have - "it takes one to know one", as they say. "Gaydar" would be another subject for an interesting academic research.

[SweatiePie]

Cross-culturally, straight men in the West often find it offensive to be fancied by a gay guy, whereas in East, they take it as a compliment. It's a question of having your face rearranged or getting a smile as a response. This is my experience rather than a general truth, though. I would really like to make a socio-cultural scientific research on this.

Agreed again, Tom, and for once I think it certainly has some merits as a "general truth". In Thailand we are flattered to be fancied by anybody and take it as a compliment - that doesn't mean that feelings are necessarily reciprocated, just that they are appreciated. I've always felt that this isn't acceptable in the West as there's so much more "fear of association" so slim guys don't want to be seen with fat guys, many straights don't want to be seen with gays, some gays don't want to be seen with ladyboys, and some don't even want to be sen with women! NQOS, at least in many places in the West, are still NQOS!

[mark45y]

Gay men/boys working in the scene are all 'gay' or 'bi'. Just occassionally a boy will tell you honestly that he is straight.

Once getting into a relationship, you'll find out that your partner suddenly has a sister who'd like to stay in your house or that he has a good friend somewhere.

Of course, the "gaydar" is not always reliable, and for some people even less so than for others.

But if you have a close physical encounter with a man, you'll feel it - I'd say. But then, he can be gay in the western sense but at the same time straight. As Pawpcorn pointed out in #6 (http://www.thaivisa....23#entry4202423) these definitions don't make sense over here.

I heard at least one western social worker giving up on the western-style labels and using the term MSM (men having sex with men) instead.

What a great post. I LOVE the MSM term, really makes great sense; stop already with the labels, if it feels good, do it, it's "Amazing Thailand" after all!

Ah... Gaydar!!! Great subject! I thought I had Gaydar perfected, in the states (on the West coast...) and it was so simple, there... if a guy looked directly into your eyes for a longer than "normal" period... bingo! Gay! 555+

Here, I couldn't figure it out, for a long time... since any guy, almost, seemed willing to look you directly in the eyes, for extended periods... made no sense! And reality (I know NOW) is that an extended look into the eyes can be interpreted as threatening, or a challenge to fight! (believe it!) Gotta be careful!

I FINALLY figured it out, in that gay men, here, consistently, would "walk" in a slightly different manner than straight men... When a gay man walks... he has "poise", not a "swagger", meaning, if you watch their head and shoulders, you will see a very smooth stable "glide".

I'd put a 100% certification here too, but I KNOW this has to be taken as a generality, lest be "flamed", again, for stating generalities as certainties, lol...

On the same Gaydar subject... if the Thai guy raises his eyebrows at you, for a moment... you've just been propositioned! (OK, a generality!)

All this has made me start to wonder just how I walk!?!? Do I glide, or swagger? Not sure, but I DO think about it now, and truthfully, I think I'm gliding....

And yes, I DO occasionally raise my eyebrows!

It works for both sexes it is called, "look Q (raise eyebrows)." When the other person responds it is called "leo dtah." Forgive my phonetics.

[LindsayBKK]

I have bought only 1, no make that 2, and one was straight. He told me he lived with his Father who didn't work.

Kissing was out of the question for him, that was a giveaway. The first was Gay, I don't think I need to explain why I think so.

Edited March 17, 2011 by LindsayBKK

[BigCan]

Just a recently discovered this Forum and Thai Visa in general not that long ago... could have saved me a LOT of discussions with my partner (He is male, I am a female). I suppose in a lot of ways it was for he best because it bought us closer together, I really listened to what he was saying, and after 3+ years we are still successfully muddling through it together!

When I first moved to Thailand over four years ago I had a gay (exclusively slept with men) western roommate. Eternally grateful for it, really helped me discover new worlds. The relevant point is that he used to bring many Thai 'boyfriends' home for long weekends, about 80% of whom he picked up in the go-go bars. My partner would often (but not always) become very jealous of my behavior around these men. I would laugh and say that I thought the jealously card did not apply when I am surrounded by men that identify as gay. He would look at me like I had three heads. He seemed to know in an instant, that many of these bar boys were not gay, and he always seemed to know which ones because it was not all of them. It was news to me and as the drama unfolded I realized the truth in what he was saying. (Didn't excuse the jealousy, but we have also muddled successfully through that!). Another female roommate let one of the boys sleep in her room because he had had a fight with the other room mate and woke up to him fondling her. Just showcases how close-minded, perhaps just naive, we all are when we are only exposed to our own corn-fed society. She did not think twice about the fact she may get hit on before allowing the male prostitute to sleep in her room. He was a male prostitute of course he was gay!

My partner also shared with me his personal experiences with a ladyboy. It took him 2 years to share, so I hesitate to believe the entire 'lack of shame' relating to straight men having sexual encounters with men (but perhaps that poster was only referring to childhood encounters). The ladyboy took him under his wing and 'took care' of him financially. (Let him sleep at his house, access to motorbike, this is under impoverished circumstances not go-go bar setting) In return my partner was serviced by the ladyboy. I am very open minded about all things sexual and believe love to be the most complicated thing on earth (perhaps sitting next to sexual orientation) so he was not feeling scared of my reaction. When I asked him if he had returned the service, he was very offended. Of course not! He is straight! It was very interesting to see that he did not equate getting serviced by another man as gay, but was appalled at the idea that I thought he had returned the favor. (I told him it seemed a little selfish.)

Kind of long winded. Apologies. It is just nice to have a place to share some stories and not have them seem outrageous, but actually normal (whatever that really is).

So yes, I do think that male prostitutes who service men are often homosexual.

[taiwanatoa]

Being heterosexual and admittedly being repulsed by the idea of male homosexuality for much of my life, I just can't imaging being in any situation where I could perform a gay act with anyone for any amount of money, so the opinions that were offered insisting that once anybody has consented to a gay encounter for money, they are (in essence) a gay person is understandable.

In truth, nobody knows what they'd do if their situation was dire enough. Desperate times call for desperate measures. If the OP is correct in telling us that straight people sometimes work servicing homosexuals for money, I feel very sorry for them. To be in such a horrible situation that they'd defy their own sexuality and go the other way must be extremely damaging to their inner spirit.

You obviously know nothing about the real world.You're stuck inside your Western/Northern bubble-world.It surely must be damaging to your inner spirit.

[taiwanatoa]

So many Western/Northeners are so ignorant of, and have such a naive imagination about everyone else in the world."Pawpcorn"imagines and says":trust me on this,ALL Thai boys SUCK each other"!Ha ha,what a foolish,stupid idiotic( and blatantly wrong) statement.Keep dreaming,honey!

[endure]

You do realise you're replying to posts that are over a year old?

[taiwanatoa]

You do realise you're replying to posts that are over a year old?

So what?Are YOU not reading them?

[endure]

You do realise you're replying to posts that are over a year old?

So what?Are YOU not reading them?

I was merely pointing the fact out. No need to get shirty.

[Scott]

Opening an old topic for the purpose of making inflammatory remarks about posters isn't going to fly.

One post removed.

Topic closed.