Thai Army Will Retaliate And No Longer Talk With Cambodia: Sansern

[kuffki]

Hence why both parties need to agree on troop withdrawal. Thailand refused!!! no if's, no but's just simply refused.

And since in Thai media we are not getting the reports on Cambodia i am not sure how you know where Thai shells are landing.

You appear to be pro Thai no matter what, and what i am saying that you should look at all the facts and opinions logically.

What you say is true, but also try to read and understand what i say, because sadly its also true.

And if Thailand was as much of an angel as you want it to be, Thailand would agree on military withdrawal and help from ASEAN or UN

Did Cambodia actually suggest troop withdrawal? I thought they just sent a letter to the UN asking them to pressure Thailand to withdraw.

I am not pro-Thai or pro-Cambodian. I am pro-facts. And you don't appear to be posting any.

Yes from what i read in the past few days (the headlines) Cambodia suggested troop withdrawal.

None of us have any hard facts, we only have what is given to us by the media. It is then up to an individual to interpret it to whatever he/she sees.

[Thai at Heart]

The government doesn't want it, no political party wants it, and the vast majority of Thais don't want it. And yet there is a group of people powerful enough to make the army enter into this fighting in the name of Thailand. Chamlong and the yellows do only the rhetoric and posturing.

The army doesn't take orders from Chamlong. The real power that is driving this is way above him and his crew.

I suspect third hands are retouching this off each time a truce is reached.

I also suspect long term financial motives are well hidden behind the nationalist rhetoric and face making/saving.

I think Chamlong is a pawn or aging knight, who is being played very well by a master manipulator or 3.

Either they are quite daft / round the twist,

or there is some much more malevolent going on than simple political maneuverings.

If he is being manipulated, I can't quite work out clearly what the long term reliable benefit can be gained by causing these troubles.

[hanuman1]

The government doesn't want it, no political party wants it, and the vast majority of Thais don't want it. And yet there is a group of people powerful enough to make the army enter into this fighting in the name of Thailand. Chamlong and the yellows do only the rhetoric and posturing.

The army doesn't take orders from Chamlong. The real power that is driving this is way above him and his crew.

I suspect third hands are retouching this off each time a truce is reached.

I also suspect long term financial motives are well hidden behind the nationalist rhetoric and face making/saving.

I think Chamlong is a pawn or aging knight, who is being played very well by a master manipulator or 3.

Either they are quite daft / round the twist,

or there is some much more malevolent going on than simple political maneuverings.

I think long term financial motives are usually based on factors that are more predictable than international warfare (especially if you are not one of the world's major powers).

The thing is, the higher up you go in the social pecking order, the more rarified the air becomes. Things important to those lower down become less important to you. New things become important to you which are not so important - or even completely absent - to those lower down. This can lead to actions being taken which appear incongruous with the views of the majority, to put it mildly.

So basically, I think your 'daft/round the twist' theory is more likely than the financial profit motive. Sounds silly, but I don't think it's without historical precedent.

As for the malevolent thing, sounds intriguing but I don't know what you're on about, to be honest. Care to necessarily skirt around the issue a bit more for me? Cheers.

[Lite Beer]

A post containing a thinly veiled reference to The Monarchy has been deleted.

[drronnie]

Both sides claim the lump of land in question and therefore both sides will say the other trespassed on their territory. Cambodia is militarily weaker and therefore appeals for UN attention. Thailand which is militarily stronger doesnt mind letting it go a little longer. Both sides are using some old mortars and artillery which means shells can easily go astray. The temple which is Cambodian is in the middle of the artillery exchange meaning it will increasingly take hits by accident the longer this goes on. More worryingly than what happens to a piece of stone is that people on both sides are being killed, injured and displaced.

Who is right and who is wrong. Nobody will ever know and the answer is to control the propaganda ie the media stories. Cambodia plays poor little Cambodia bullied by big neighbour but is hamstrung by Hun Sens image. Thailand plays unruly neighbour led by military strongman plays up against civilised member of world community but suffers from its own unruly recent history.

I would not say Cambodia is militarily weaker. Thailand has got old US weapon systems from the 70s. while Cambodia has some of the newest stuff bought from China. Plus Cambodia has 30 year war experience. Thailand has almost none

[Macmundi]

This is more interesting that betting on horses..!!!

[animatic]

The government doesn't want it, no political party wants it, and the vast majority of Thais don't want it. And yet there is a group of people powerful enough to make the army enter into this fighting in the name of Thailand. Chamlong and the yellows do only the rhetoric and posturing.

The army doesn't take orders from Chamlong. The real power that is driving this is way above him and his crew.

I suspect third hands are retouching this off each time a truce is reached.

I also suspect long term financial motives are well hidden behind the nationalist rhetoric and face making/saving.

I think Chamlong is a pawn or aging knight, who is being played very well by a master manipulator or 3.

Either they are quite daft / round the twist,

or there is some much more malevolent going on than simple political maneuverings.

If he is being manipulated, I can't quite work out clearly what the long term reliable benefit can be gained by causing these troubles.

Oil and other resources, bid for from a stronger position,

or if it really blows up redrawing borders to increase Thailands oil share off shore.

This is REALLY big money into the future, for people who think in 50 year plans, not 5.

[kuffki]

Both sides claim the lump of land in question and therefore both sides will say the other trespassed on their territory. Cambodia is militarily weaker and therefore appeals for UN attention. Thailand which is militarily stronger doesnt mind letting it go a little longer. Both sides are using some old mortars and artillery which means shells can easily go astray. The temple which is Cambodian is in the middle of the artillery exchange meaning it will increasingly take hits by accident the longer this goes on. More worryingly than what happens to a piece of stone is that people on both sides are being killed, injured and displaced.

Who is right and who is wrong. Nobody will ever know and the answer is to control the propaganda ie the media stories. Cambodia plays poor little Cambodia bullied by big neighbour but is hamstrung by Hun Sens image. Thailand plays unruly neighbour led by military strongman plays up against civilised member of world community but suffers from its own unruly recent history.

I would not say Cambodia is militarily weaker. Thailand has got old US weapon systems from the 70s. while Cambodia has some of the newest stuff bought from China. Plus Cambodia has 30 year war experience. Thailand has almost none

Everyone seems to forget that a huge number of arms comes from Russia and Eastern Europe countries.

See the full list here, half way through the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Cambodian_Army

[drronnie]

Both sides claim the lump of land in question and therefore both sides will say the other trespassed on their territory. Cambodia is militarily weaker and therefore appeals for UN attention. Thailand which is militarily stronger doesnt mind letting it go a little longer. Both sides are using some old mortars and artillery which means shells can easily go astray. The temple which is Cambodian is in the middle of the artillery exchange meaning it will increasingly take hits by accident the longer this goes on. More worryingly than what happens to a piece of stone is that people on both sides are being killed, injured and displaced.

Who is right and who is wrong. Nobody will ever know and the answer is to control the propaganda ie the media stories. Cambodia plays poor little Cambodia bullied by big neighbour but is hamstrung by Hun Sens image. Thailand plays unruly neighbour led by military strongman plays up against civilised member of world community but suffers from its own unruly recent history.

I would not say Cambodia is militarily weaker. Thailand has got old US weapon systems from the 70s. while Cambodia has some of the newest stuff bought from China. Plus Cambodia has 30 year war experience. Thailand has almost none

Everyone seems to forget that a huge number of arms comes from Russia and Eastern Europe countries.

See the full list here, half way through the page http://en.wikipedia...._Cambodian_Army

Thailand's only advantage would lie in the airforce (at least on paper0, however if the Cambodians have experienced pilots in their Fishbeds and Chengdu then it could be more than a match for Thailand's F16

[whybother]

Yes from what i read in the past few days (the headlines) Cambodia suggested troop withdrawal.

None of us have any hard facts, we only have what is given to us by the media. It is then up to an individual to interpret it to whatever he/she sees.

Maybe you can post a link, as I haven't seen any suggestions.

[kuffki]

Yes from what i read in the past few days (the headlines) Cambodia suggested troop withdrawal.

None of us have any hard facts, we only have what is given to us by the media. It is then up to an individual to interpret it to whatever he/she sees.

Maybe you can post a link, as I haven't seen any suggestions.

This is a link for Cambodia stating that Thai shells land 20km into their territory and Thailand refusing ASEAN help http://www.thaivisa....damages-temple/

http://www.thaivisa....my/page__st__75

Post number 93

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday rejected a call for demilitarisation of disputed areas along the border. The government would not withdraw troops as Thailand needed to claim its right in the border, he said.

"I insist that a troop withdrawal as proposed by Cambodia could not be done since we have to maintain our right [over the area] although it is risky to have another clash," Abhisit told reporters.

Over the past two years, Cambodia has proposed withdrawing troops on both sides out of the disputed area adjacent to the disputed Hindu temple at Preah Vihear to avoid military clashes.

-- The Nation 2011-02-07

Edited February 7, 2011 by kuffki

[jayjay0]

The government doesn't want it, no political party wants it, and the vast majority of Thais don't want it. And yet there is a group of people powerful enough to make the army enter into this fighting in the name of Thailand. Chamlong and the yellows do only the rhetoric and posturing.

The army doesn't take orders from Chamlong. The real power that is driving this is way above him and his crew.

I suspect third hands are retouching this off each time a truce is reached.

I also suspect long term financial motives are well hidden behind the nationalist rhetoric and face making/saving.

I think Chamlong is a pawn or aging knight, who is being played very well by a master manipulator or 3.

Either they are quite daft / round the twist,

or there is some much more malevolent going on than simple political maneuverings.

Completely agree with you on out side parties rekindling the conflict every time a cease fire is reached.

The yellow shirts have not only pushed for war they have shown that they are quite capable of putting the good of Thailand behind there own private wants.

Not sure about the economic gains. I believe you are referring to the oil reserves under water in Cambodian waters.

In order to change the borders from the Temple to international waters they would have to take over the whole town at the main crossing into Cambodia from Bangkok.

[geriatrickid]

Before anyone dismisses the Cambodian military, note that it took delivery of 50 new T-55 tanks last September and the Chinese have been shipping down transport vehicles and APCs. As well, South Korea has sold some nice equipment too.

Thai air superiority may be useless if Cambodia deployes its Crotale -SAM and its Blowpipe SAM. One need only think of the mujhadeen in Afghanistan and what their stingers did to the Soviet Air superiority. The Thai airplanes would have to fly low in these clashes and they could be picked off.

And then there is the Thai economy. Can it afford a war? Can the struggling tourism sector survive a war?

[rogerdee123]

I add my voice to the "This is idiocy" from both sides (probably more so from Thailand) and I believe that Chamlong and his mob will be heading downhill in the credibility department from here on out.

In Cambodia this issue is highly emotional and unifying and Hun Sen's popularity there is probably soaring now, despite his dictatorial Govt and violent past. From my observation, a big contrast from the Thai population ... which is anything but unified. I think most Thai on the street and in the villages would say "it's obviously a Cambodian temple, give them the <deleted> temple" .... which is also exactly what the Cambodians (and most of the rest of the world) are thinking.

As many have stated here, we can't believe what either side says and the news as being reported is also superficial. I wouldn't be surprised if there have already been several unreported military deaths from these latest clashes.

Also regarding the question "who will win militarily" .... I don't think either Thailand or Cambodia will "invade" the other. This will be limited to the border clashes and both sides have the ability to inflict damages and death on the other. This is without mentioning the probable riots/protests and likelihood of more indirect destruction ... and also the damaging effect on tourism and business for both countries.

The Cambodian forces have the ability (and I think also the will) to shoot down Thai military aircraft that habitually stray into their airspace, either intentionally or by "mistake", and I think this will happen sooner or later if things don't calm down.

No matter how many Cambodian (and Thai) soldiers are killed, In the end Thailand can only lose on this issue. Too bad no one will be held accountable.

It is absolute idiocy on the part of Thai politicians to pick a (real and deadly) fight over this issue.

[webfact]

Second Army claims Cambodian soldiers fired first this morning

SURIN, 7 February 2011 (NNT)-The Second Army Area has order a temporary closure at Chong Chom border check point in Surin province after fresh gunfights have been reported between Thai and Cambodian Soldiers in Sisaket province.

The atmosphere around Chong Chom border check point in Kap Choeng district, which is located near the Cambodian border, has been quiet since Cambodian traders have fled the border and quickly returned to their country for fears of possible violence.

All shops in Samrong district of Seam reap province in Cambodia have also closed down. The clashes took place this morning at 8.00 hours in Kanthararak district, Sisaket province. According to the Second Army Area, Thailand did not retaliate after the Cambodian soldiers had fired a recoilless rifle at the Thai soldiers patrolling close to the border. However, no one has reportedly been injured or dead.

-- NNT 2011-02-07

[Credo]

All the political jockeying is interesting, but in the end, the Temple belongs to Cambodia. Thailand doesn't like that. It will forever be associated with Cambodia. It's a Hindu temple and the Thai's are quite capable of destroying it if they can't have for themselves. Not that they will, though.

Cambodia on the other hand will lose a cash cow and they don't have too many of those.

[Derifo]

I have no doubt Thaksin is playing a part in this - he has no conscious.

Your guess is as good as mine.

[Derifo]

Cambodian govt says Preah Vihear temple hit by around 100 shells in weekend fighting.1 tourist killed. /via @vaitor /via@seacorro

What are they doing letting tourists into the area?

They need the money.

[Insight]

I think most Thai on the street and in the villages would say "it's obviously a Cambodian temple, give them the <deleted> temple" .... which is also exactly what the Cambodians (and most of the rest of the world) are thinking.

Hmmmm. Although the PAD is clearly not getting much support for their recent antics I don't think Thais would be happy to sacrifice anything to the Khmers - as silly as it may sound.

[spidermike007]

This has got to be one of the silliest, and most inane "wars" ever fought. If the army has guys like Thai Army spokesman Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd, they are doomed. He is obviously imcompetent, and is guilty of a warmongering. Why not get a level headed man to make statements. Was it his intent to fan the flames? What are they fighting over? Is it pure pride? The UN already declared the temple site to be in Cambodian territory. Thailand accepted that. Why not just arrest the yellow (hearted) shirt leaders who are fanning the flames, and charge them with inciting terrorism, which they are doing? Why is the media being so complicit, by not explaining to the Thai people that the UN already made their decision, and Thailand accepted it over 50 years ago?

[Derifo]

Where did Thailand claim that Cambodia are "killing Thai civilians left, right and center"?

figure of speech. Thailand and some posters are claiming that Cambodia is aiming at schools and hospitals and just villages

OK. So you're claiming that Thailand blew up their own schools and villages?

What i am claiming is ONCE AGAIN

Cambodia asked for help from UN and from ASEAN

ASEAN offered to mediate and intervene, Thailand declined

If Thailand was even interested in peace, why would they decline? Why Thailand has not contacted UN asking to stop Cambodia from attacking?

Why Thailand has not written to UN complaining about Cambodia killing and aiming at schools?

Is there any evidence or proof that Thai military is NOT stationed by the school or DOES NOT have a tank parked byt he school?

If Cambodia indeed did aim at schools and villages and is killing Thai civilians , why would Cambodia seek help from UN and ASEAN, would not those crimes be uncovered and Cambodia would face serious consequences?

Some people are very good at acting. They throw punches and cry out loud for help at the same time.

[hanuman1]

I add my voice to the "This is idiocy" from both sides (probably more so from Thailand) and I believe that Chamlong and his mob will be heading downhill in the credibility department from here on out.

In Cambodia this issue is highly emotional and unifying and Hun Sen's popularity there is probably soaring now, despite his dictatorial Govt and violent past. From my observation, a big contrast from the Thai population ... which is anything but unified. I think most Thai on the street and in the villages would say "it's obviously a Cambodian temple, give them the <deleted> temple" .... which is also exactly what the Cambodians (and most of the rest of the world) are thinking.

As many have stated here, we can't believe what either side says and the news as being reported is also superficial. I wouldn't be surprised if there have already been several unreported military deaths from these latest clashes.

Also regarding the question "who will win militarily" .... I don't think either Thailand or Cambodia will "invade" the other. This will be limited to the border clashes and both sides have the ability to inflict damages and death on the other. This is without mentioning the probable riots/protests and likelihood of more indirect destruction ... and also the damaging effect on tourism and business for both countries.

The Cambodian forces have the ability (and I think also the will) to shoot down Thai military aircraft that habitually stray into their airspace, either intentionally or by "mistake", and I think this will happen sooner or later if things don't calm down.

No matter how many Cambodian (and Thai) soldiers are killed, In the end Thailand can only lose on this issue. Too bad no one will be held accountable.

It is absolute idiocy on the part of Thai politicians to pick a (real and deadly) fight over this issue.

I don't disagree with your points, except the last sentence. It is presumptuous to say that it is Thai politicians who are picking this fight. There was no discernable sabre-rattling by any popular political party in the lead-up to this. It is the Thai army who is picking this fight.

Although we'd all hope and like to think that the army does what the government tells it, there has been plenty of evidence to suggest that it will do as it sees fit regardless of whether the government is 'Thaksin-sponsored' or not.

So find out who the army has real allegiance to and you'll be much nearer finding out who it is that's picking and more to the point escalating, this fight.

[webfact]

Google Map showing some of the locations mentioned in newspapers about Thai/Cambodian border war http://bit.ly/dKE1hH /Rvia@RichardBarrow

[Oberkommando]

In the end, it doesn't matter who fired first, who shelled who, who killed or captured who.

The international community can see clearly that it is Thailand that has the problem here; recent military coup, junta, political turmoil for 5+ years, the protests in Bangkok, killings by the military at Rajaprasong and many other factors.

The astute Hun Sen is playing all this to his advantage while Thailand squabbles.

Don't forget about Viet Nam's role in this, they are a close ally of the Cambodians and will no doubt involve themselves in some way if the conflict escalates.

[earthpig]

am i missing something or is not the situation clear?

Cambodia has the temple and international support.

the thai gov is under pressure from its political base to rectify what they consider to be an injustice in this matter. elections loom, and for the last several times that thai have had elections, what is now the opposition has won. thus the government feels political pressure to satisfy one of their core constituencies.

add to this the fact that the one side must be many times stronger than the other militarily, and it begins to become obvious which side started this. i suppose it ends with a full fledged invasion of the temple area in order to protect innocent civilians who are being shelled, as well as to reclaim lost territory.

[barrybankruad]

Interesting that both sides are fighting over a Buddhist Temple - ironic.

It is NOT a Buddhist temple. This argument has been debated before. It is an ancient Hindu temple abandoned for centuries after both countries adopted Buddhism.

[warfie]

Let's just hope that someday soon, one of these children will simply let the other have this broken toy....

[SomTumTiger]

Who do we know who has a lot of M79 grenades, paramilitary soldiers to use them, and an itch to start trouble?

Hey, Who is that he is hugging?....wait...that can't be right....

[TAWP]

I like it when people claim that the Cambodian side is such a great military force, experienced...and then claim they didn't aim at the Thai village and school on purpose...

So what is it, cold blooded murder or incompetence?

[silp1979]

The BBC is reporting that Thai artillery has accidentally destroyed part of the Preah Vihear temple. If true, how typically Thai.

they are crazy this is a low level war already, soon the thais will push in and try to move the cambodians out, then bigger fighting will erupt

if i see egypt and how the army holds back there and if you compare that to the fascist ideology here....it is really time to leave, soon it will be extremly hot anyway, just don't know yet where to go