Exodus Of Western Expats From Pattaya

[Lancelot]

I bet that in 10 years time, Pattaya will have transformed itself into a mid-to-up market tourist location, the surviving sex establishments will have been shunted off into 'back Sois' and the number of tourists coming here will have doubled from its present levels.

Very possible.

With the world's population at seven billion souls Pattaya only needs a very, very small percentage of that to rock on.

[tropo]

I agree with much of what you say, but I completely fail to comprehend why you all have your 'heads in the sand' with regards to whether or not the Thais like Pattaya . Of course the ones who live here and derive their livelihoods from here like it - but the rest of Thailand - forget it! You all seem to be convinced that because you like Pattaya and because the Thais you meet here like Pattaya, then the ordinary Thais in other parts of Thailand also like it. It really is a kind of 'myopic arrogance'.

Does everyone who disagrees with you have their "heads in the sand"?

I believe you are the one with your head in the sand.

Let's put this into perspective.

Why does Pattaya exist in the first place. Pattaya is unique and why is it in Thailand?

Because of the tolerance of Thai society.

Thais don't hate Pattaya. They either love it or are indifferent to it.

[mike111]

The Pattaya alternatives thread is here: http://www.thaivisa....ves-to-pattaya/

There are probably other threads on the same topic. This website is a bit of a mess and many topics are reopened as new threads under different names.

Thanks sojourner007.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

I agree with much of what you say, but I completely fail to comprehend why you all have your 'heads in the sand' with regards to whether or not the Thais like Pattaya . Of course the ones who live here and derive their livelihoods from here like it - but the rest of Thailand - forget it! You all seem to be convinced that because you like Pattaya and because the Thais you meet here like Pattaya, then the ordinary Thais in other parts of Thailand also like it. It really is a kind of 'myopic arrogance'.

Does everyone who disagrees with you have their "heads in the sand"?

I believe you are the one with your head in the sand.

Let's put this into perspective.

Why does Pattaya exist in the first place. Pattaya is unique and why is it in Thailand?

Because of the tolerance of Thai society.

Thais don't hate Pattaya. They either love it or are indifferent to it.

It seems obvious that many Thais from Bangkok do like Pattaya and have done so for years. Many have bought condos there for a weekend escape from Bangkok. They flock to the place during holidays, etc. In addition, there are many people living in rural areas in Thailand that like or at least tolerate Pattaya for economic reasons that we do not have to go into here (obvious). Why does Pattaya exists? What makes it unique? We all know why. And it is the "tolerance" factor that many of us found appealing when we decided to move here. The "new development scheme" seems to reflect a non-tolerance towards anything that is not conservative, Puritanical, and associated with massive greed. Let them ruin what made the place special and see what happens. I do not think they are going to get what they expect. I absolutely do not believe the so-called "punters" will continue to come in droves if the place starts resembling an mini-Islamic enclave. Having said all that, the OP is wanting to get back on track. So let me add to the discussion on Ban Chang. I do think more expats and retirees, etc., will start looking south for a new alternative to Pattaya. Already Rayong is growing. Ban Chang is only about 45km from Pattaya, has its own small version of "Walking Street, " beaches, golf, condos, and supermarkets. It is also very close to Utapao airport which might gain in popularity in the future. Ban Chang might be good for people who are sick of the over-development and stressful lifestyle in Pattaya but who still like to visit Pattaya on occasion. Farther south, I do think Sihanoukville will eventually get its act together and might be a genuine alternative to Pattaya, but it has a long way to go before it starts to draw in lots of tourists and expats. I disagree with the poster who made negative comments about Cambodians. I do not find them very much different from Thais. But the language is more difficult, in my view. Remember that behind the Thai smile is often a Thai villain Not always true, of course.

[neil324]

Peak oil?

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Peak oil?

Peak oil? Huh? One too many beers

[thaibeachlovers]

I doubt very much that Walking St is going anywhere soon.

The amount of money that is generated by the clubs and bars etc will ensure its survival.

It is always possible that stricter standards are imposed a la Bangkok style...in the gogo bars but Walking St being closed down....I doubt it.

I agree with you... 'not going anywhere soon'..

But in 10 years time? Almost certainly.

Yes it generates 'loadsa money' - but who gets that money? The local Mafia, the local cops and a few 'lucky' farang bar owners until they get muscled out or killed.

It is also my understanding that many of the establishments on the beach side of walking Street have been built there illegally, encroaching on public beach-side.

As Thailand's determination to move Pattaya upmarket starts to take hold, the powers that be will take over the whole Walking Street area, open up the beaches and probably allow much richer and more powerful interests than the local Pattay Mafia to build beach resorts and restaurants there. That's my prediction - let's see who is right?

If the 'powers that be" in Pattaya were prepared to invest in the Pattaya infrastructure, shut down the scams, clean up the filth etc etc, I might agree with you, but as I see it, the beach walkway will be even more decrepit in 10 years, there still won't be any accessible pavements, the pedestrian traffic lights will all be derelict ( or stolen for scrap metal ) and the traffic will be 10 times as bad.

Just building some flash malls and hotels in an already broken infrastructure won't make Pattaya a 1st class destination.

When it comes down to it, the only game that really makes money in Pattaya is the night scene, and as I see it, that's all they care about.

If Thais were so dissaproving of Pattaya, surely places like Hua Hin would be keeping the bar beers out, rather than trying to build up their own "red light" areas!

[nong38]

The exchange rate may have a little to do with it and a return to the UK get your pension re instated again and come back might be possible but there are other things going on as well. I am pleased I did not rent or buy in Pattaya now, its like a Russian Ghetto and its happened in very short order too, they are everywhere and they let you know it. Time to look for somewhere where life is not so noisy and brash and full of people you dont want around you, why do I keep hearing of the Russuan Mafia? Do I want to live with these sort of comments going on around me? Prices have risen more too, where we would haggle and bargain the Russians just seem to pay up and now so do we or not buy.

The glory days of the Western ex pats Pattaya are in fast decline, time for new horizons and a better offer, Pattaya's standards of service and offer have been in decline over the 3 years I have seen it, a better offer, somewhere new, yes give it try and maybe I wont be back to often from now on.

[midas]

Peak oil?

plus an " evolving " Middle East.....

I see where you are coming from neil

[fishhooks]

If you decide to exit Pattaya, can you get a special coupon to allow you to use a Meter Taxi, or are they just as useless for this purpose as on any other day!

[Panhandler007]

I don`t know. Even the Arab district at Nana has gone upscale. Loads of `look pretty`` upgrades to roads and buildings. Things never stand still. Upwards and onwards. More is better. Progress isprogress!

[Panhandler007]

I am gonna open up me a jerk chicken stand!!!!!!! Jerk it babi!

[SGD]

I agree with you... 'not going anywhere soon'..

But in 10 years time? Almost certainly.

Yes it generates 'loadsa money' - but who gets that money? The local Mafia, the local cops and a few 'lucky' farang bar owners until they get muscled out or killed.

It is also my understanding that many of the establishments on the beach side of walking Street have been built there illegally, encroaching on public beach-side.

As Thailand's determination to move Pattaya upmarket starts to take hold, the powers that be will take over the whole Walking Street area, open up the beaches and probably allow much richer and more powerful interests than the local Pattay Mafia to build beach resorts and restaurants there. That's my prediction - let's see who is right?

And 10 years ago they were predicting the death of Walking Street. Today it is stronger than it ever has been. In 10 years time they will still be predicting the death of Walking Street and rather than trying to push the sex to the outskirts, there is more chance of Walking Street being listed as the only permissible area to put on sex type shows.

You've never had a business in Thailand, you cannot go to Walking Street without falling off the wagon and you seem to have a live in nowadays. in many respects, your anti nature is akin to a reformed smoker lambasting those who continue to smoke.

[Ulysses G.]

I agree with you... 'not going anywhere soon'..

But in 10 years time? Almost certainly.

Getting rid of the Go-Go Bars on Walking Street would be like getting rid of the Eiffel Tower, Notre Dame and the Louvre in Paris.

That is what tourists want to see when they visit Pattaya - even if a few cheap, spoil-sports don't actually go inside.

[johnnyk]

The decline really sped up about 2 years ago. Now all I see is Russian tourists everywhere and bars being torn down. Sad to see the place go to the dogs like it has.

I moved to Pattaya just as it started to take this nosedive. I had no idea when I moved here everyone else would be moving out.

Should I move somewhere else? Maybe a different country? I've thought about moving to Cambodia. No visa hassles is a big plus for me, since I'm only 30 and can't get a retirement visa. Khmer food is pretty tasty. Prices are fairly low if you can avoid getting ripped off. Although the major downside is the lack of infrastructure. No good hospitals yet and few of the nice condos you have in Thailand.

I wouldn't move to Hua Hin. I predict in 5 years it will be another Pattaya. Cha Am will be another Pattaya in about 10 yrs.

I've lived in Hua Hin for 5 yesrs, the chances of this place or Cha am becoming another Pattaya are absolutley zero.

Me, too. The guy who said that knows nothing about HH and I doubt he has ever been there

[johnnyk]

However, as I have stated earlier in this thread, Thailand is no longer a third world country and and within the next ten years will become more and more 'first world'. The plain fact is that Thailand's economy is in very good shape, with tourism a mere 6-7% of GDP and this, despite all the political upheavals. Just imagine how the economy and tourism is going to forge ahead if they manage to get some stability into the government?

The plain fact is that they really don't need retirees any more, (if indeed they ever did), and very little will be lost if they slowly start to raise the bar and ease most of them out of Thailand and onto pastures new.

Personally I am reasonably optimistic that I will be able to 'ride' any visa changes and be able to live out my days here, but I will always be ready for the unexpected.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on several points:

1) Thailand is an LDC and has a long way to go before attaining "first world" status.

2) Thailand's economy is hurting badly--income inequality (the rich own virtually everything), government debt, very low annual average GDP growth over the past decade, foreign investment going to better places in the region, huge amount of underemployment (e.g. college graduates working for low wages at fast-food places), inflation, etc.

3) Tourism represents far more than 6-7% of GDP; the official figure does not include all of the businesses (including informal economy) that are associated with and benefit by tourism. My guess is that you can easily double the official figure to arrive at a realistic percentage of GDP related to tourism. That is not insignificant by any measure.

4) Thailand's political problems are not setting in motion a series of events that will lead to first world status in ten years (just the opposite).

5) No country needs retirees unless they represent a mass of human beings (which they never do). But it is economically foolish to not want them and the money they spend. There are huge numbers of businesses in Thailand that depend on foreign tourists and retirees for survival (e.g., condos; real estate agencies; bars; airline corporations; restaurants that cater to foreigners, etc).

The real issue is not so much retirees as it is foreigners in general. If the govt. goes after retirees, it will most certain go after all foreigners. And that is precisely what the Thai govt. has been doing with its visa rule changes over the past ten years.

One thing I do agree with: We need to plan for the unexpected. That is one reason why the info. on Cambodia and Vietnam is interesting here. I have never felt "secure" here.

Your post is just factually wrong on many issues and i think misguided in others.

1) Thailand is not an LDC according to the LDC definition- its classified as a middle income country by the world bank (who determine these classifications).

2) The US has a greater income inequality than Thailand to put things in perspective

3) The 6-7% of GDP from tourism includes most related businesses

4) Thailand's political problems are an issue- but the people who have the most to lose- i.e. those foreign individuals and companies who are still investing billions into Thailand - disagree with you that it will have a long term negative effect on the countries long term development.

5) Yes retiree money would be nice for the country- but i think many thai's are fed up with the mean, scummy ,nasty foreigners who flock to thailand and don't want these types staying here indefinitely (unfortunately the 'good'foreigners are adversely affected.)

Thailand's economy is NOT hurting. Why has the baht appreciated? Because tons of money is flowing in to the country. Thailand is not in hock to anybody. They paid back in record time all the money they borrowed from the IMF for the '97 crash.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

We really disagree on many facts. I am not going to go over all of them (waste of time). One thing: You want to put things into "perspective" by pointing out that the US has greater income inequality than Thailand. Actually, that distorts the situation. Thailand has one of the world's greatest income disparities on the planet. That is a fact. Another fact is that these statistics are easy to manipulate. Readers need to understand that when you compare income inequality between countries (especially between a developing country like Thailand and a developed country like the US), it is important to let readers know more facts like: Income per capita in the US is huge in comparison to Thailand. So what? That means that even those at the lower income levels in the US are better off than many Thais at higher income levels. So, due to income inequality, those at the bottom feel pain in the USA, but those at the bottom feel far more pain in Thailand. Another way of looking at it is that the socioeconomic consequences of income inequality in Thailand are greater than the socioeconomic consequences of income inequality in the US. That is one of the major reasons for the Red vs. Yellow problem Thailand is struggling with. I do not have the time or inclination to present data that contradicts all of your beliefs. I will just say the Thai economy is seriously hurting in many sectors and has been hurting for a decade. Yes, I know already, you disagree. OK.

[Jingthing]

That means that even those at the lower income levels in the US are better off than many Thais at higher income levels.

That's absurd and horribly false. The lower income level in the USA is zero dollars income. Unemployment is rampant, long term unemployment is at historic levels comparable to great depression era levels (so many have given up hope completely), people are losing their homes by the millions, the safety net is basically just food stamps after unemployment insurance runs out (and many never had that in the first place). In many ways, being piss poor in the US is much worse than Thailand, partly because of people holding myths like you. Please tend to be BLAMED more for being poor in the US. In Thailand, oh you're poor, well this is a poor country, have some whiskey.

Also the startup cost for a poor Thai to start a survival business like selling fruit from a cart is a TINY FRACTION of the cost for an American to start a small survival business (plus of course tons more regulations). Basically, not practical for poor Americans to even try.

Compare to high income Thais. Seriously, you need to revise your world view. Things are changing FAST.

Recommended book, Third World America by Arianna Huffington.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Jingthing

[Awohalitsiktoli]

That means that even those at the lower income levels in the US are better off than many Thais at higher income levels.

That's absurd and horribly false. The lower income level in the USA is zero dollars income. Unemployment is rampant, long term unemployment is at historic levels comparable to great depression era levels (so many have given up hope completely), people are losing their homes by the millions, the safety net is basically just food stamps after unemployment insurance runs out (and many never had that in the first place). In many ways, being piss poor in the US is much worse than Thailand, partly because of people holding myths like you. Please tend to be BLAMED more for being poor in the US. In Thailand, oh you're poor, well this is a poor country, have some whiskey.

Also the startup cost for a poor Thai to start a survival business like selling fruit from a cart is a TINY FRACTION of the cost for an American to start a small survival business (plus of course tons more regulations). Basically, not practical for poor Americans to even try.

Compare to high income Thais. Seriously, you need to revise your world view. Things are changing FAST.

Recommended book, Third World America by Arianna Huffington.

Surely I know, as you do, that people at the "bottom" in the US are hurting (I did not say they are not hurting). I do not blame poor people for anything. In fact, I hate poverty. What I said does make sense and is related to how comparing income inequality between two countries can be misleading. Let me give you a hypothetical (extreme) example to clarify the point: Suppose in developed country A the entire population earns at least on million dollars per year. But a tiny fraction earns multiples of billions of dollars each year. The income gap between those at the top and bottom is enormous, making country A the country with the greatest income inequality on the planet. BUT, it really does not matter that much because every person is rich. This is the essential statistical problem. It illustrates why it is sometimes not fair to compare income inequality in a very rich country to a MIC/underdeveloped country. Having said that, let me emphasize, once again, income inequality in Thailand is enormous and is causing pain for virtually every Thai who is not at the "top."

[LennyW]

Surely I know, as you do, that people at the "bottom" in the US are hurting (I did not say they are not hurting). I do not blame poor people for anything. In fact, I hate poverty. What I said does make sense and is related to how comparing income inequality between two countries can be misleading. Let me give you a hypothetical (extreme) example to clarify the point: Suppose in developed country A the entire population earns at least on million dollars per year. But a tiny fraction earns multiples of billions of dollars each year. The income gap between those at the top and bottom is enormous, making country A the country with the greatest income inequality on the planet. BUT, it really does not matter that much because every person is rich. This is the essential statistical problem. It illustrates why it is sometimes not fair to compare income inequality in a very rich country to a MIC/underdeveloped country. Having said that, let me emphasize, once again, income inequality in Thailand is enormous and is causing pain for virtually every Thai who is not at the "top."

Most countries in the world today have an extreme divide between the very rich and the very poor, but as Jingthing correctly pointed out - it is far easier for a Thai citizen at the lower end of the income scale to start a small business and get out from under their immediate burden, than it is for a US citizen at this time.

Thais who are not at the "top" as you put it, are not a burden on society here, they all find a means to support not only themselves but also their families too, that is the Thai way - families help each other out in every possible way, food, small loans, roof over their head, loan of motorbike, little cash till next crop comes in, etc. etc.. There is far more pain being felt in the US (and a lot of other supposedly first world countries) by lower income than will ever be felt here, it's just not that way here!

i think you will find that Thailand is currently sitting around number 15 on the list of countries that the good old US of A ...OWES MONEY TO!! , a lot of money!

Do yourself a favour, get out from your limited current existence and have a damned good and hard look around Thailand, then once you have taken the time to do that take a look in the mirror - the one looking back at you may not be the one that set out on that journey!

Anyway, enough of that <deleted>, the title of the topic is about an Exodus of Western Expats from Pattaya - seriously, why ??, i am from Scotland, and love it as my home, but Petrol/Diesel at around 6 pound a gallon, 20% VAT, 7 pound for a pack of ciggarettes........etc, etc, etc, being governed by a bunch of shites from south of the border, sorry, still be my home always and i will never forget that, but i came here to lead a less stressfull life and after 9 years there is no sign of that changing, gettin less stressful by the day!!

Edited March 12, 2011 by Rimmer
Just trying to keep the peace

[Darrel]

And 10 years ago they were predicting the death of Walking Street. Today it is stronger than it ever has been. In 10 years time they will still be predicting the death of Walking Street and rather than trying to push the sex to the outskirts, there is more chance of Walking Street being listed as the only permissible area to put on sex type shows.

I'm curious. Did you ever know Walking Street 20+ years ago? Today it is a pale shadow of its former self. In fact not even a shadow. More like a shopping mall for families than anything else, which is probably why it's full of families taking an evening stroll.

So yes, it will still be there in 10 years, but it will probably be even more boring (and expensive) than it is today.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Darrel

[Rimmer]

Just a reminder the topic is 'Exodus Of Western Expats From Pattaya' Not comparisons between Thailand and the US.

[thaibeachlovers]

And 10 years ago they were predicting the death of Walking Street. Today it is stronger than it ever has been. In 10 years time they will still be predicting the death of Walking Street and rather than trying to push the sex to the outskirts, there is more chance of Walking Street being listed as the only permissible area to put on sex type shows.

I'm curious. Did you ever know Walking Street 20+ years ago? Today it is a pale shadow of its former self. In fact not even a shadow. More like a shopping mall for families than anything else, which is probably why it's full of families taking an evening stroll.

So yes, it will still be there in 10 years, but it will probably be even more boring (and expensive) than it is today.

Hmmmm. be a bit difficult to remember WS 20+ years ago, as it didn't exist then! If I remember rightly, it started about '96. I don't remember the exact date, but I was there at the beginning.

Then, it was more of a cafe scene, with tables and chairs set out by a well known beer company. Almost any business past Tony's was hurting badly, as few went past that point, and the Russian invasion had yet to begin in earnest.

Like everything, it has evolved over the years, but IMO the girls are prettier and better dressed now than back then.

Personally, I still like to go there; even sit in the same bar beer, which has changed little.

Don't see how beautiful girls could ever be boring, and no one forces anyone to spend money there. Still, OTY.

As for the subject of the thread, if I had enough money, the only way I'd leave Pattaya is up the chimney, but unfortunately, due to bad economic decisions in past life, may not have the option.

[Ulysses G.]

I hope that you are able to stay, because you appreciate it - unlike many of the obsessive moaners.

[johnnyk]

The punters will never stop coming - not even a bloody 'civil war' in the heart of Bangkok stopped them. I bet that in 10 years time, Pattaya will have transformed itself into a mid-to-up market tourist location, the surviving sex establishments will have been shunted off into 'back Sois' and the number of tourists coming here will have doubled from its present levels.

Thats about how i see it too.

Me too. Aside from WS its already well under way. Beach Road land is too valuable for tin-roof beer bars selling draught Chang at 50baht. WS isn't going anywhere.

Some falangs operate businesses there (paying rent to rich Thais) but most is owned and run by connected Thais.

Five or six years ago soi Buakhao was a street of small Thai businesses. Now its falang-geared sex and booze biz along much of its length.

Too many powerful people making too much money off the backs of Isaan girls for the Pattaya sex trade to disappear.

The trend is clear: leave the beach area for condos and Asian tourists and park the sex east of 2nd road.

[johnnyk]

IMO Thais do not "hate" Pattaya. They might be a bit embarrassed by some of the goings-on and the kneejerk western media articles that recycle the same old, tired cliches about 60-year old falangs with 14-year old girls.

The middle class Thais I know quite enjoy coming to Pattaya for a ton of reasons: tourist attractions, Koh Larn, good food, shopping and so on. They just ignore the sex biz, its not for their consumption so they don't really care as long as it doesn't directly embarrass them.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

IMO Thais do not "hate" Pattaya. They might be a bit embarrassed by some of the goings-on and the kneejerk western media articles that recycle the same old, tired cliches about 60-year old falangs with 14-year old girls.

The middle class Thais I know quite enjoy coming to Pattaya for a ton of reasons: tourist attractions, Koh Larn, good food, shopping and so on. They just ignore the sex biz, its not for their consumption so they don't really care as long as it doesn't directly embarrass them.

Rimmer, thanks for getting the discussion back on track. JohnnyK, we actually agree on something The are many middle-class Thais who do come to Thailand for many of the reasons you stated, especially on the weekends and holidays. I am not sure they ignore the sex trade. Perhaps some engage in it in a more discrete manner. Also, I agree that the powers-that-be want to clear the beach area for "tourists" and move the "other stuff" back away from the beach. Lots of places have already been torn down over the past ten years. I think if you own a bar near the beach, you should consider moving it away from the beach, IMHO. I want to add that there is no reason why Pattaya can't be a diverse town for rich and middle class and poor (actually virtually no farang is poor or they would not be here, but many Thais who work here are poor), and for those who want to engage in "you know what" and those that don't. Diversity is a good thing; it makes things a bit interesting. I think many expats have left and more are thinking about it because of the development scheme that seems to want to create a city that is not diverse in many ways. I think trying to create Pattaya-Singapore is a mistake.

[Ulysses G.]

I think many expats have left and more are thinking about it because of the development scheme that seems to want to create a city that is not diverse in many ways.

More likely because they have gone broke.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Darrel]

Hmmmm. be a bit difficult to remember WS 20+ years ago, as it didn't exist then! If I remember rightly, it started about '96. I don't remember the exact date, but I was there at the beginning.

Walking Street existed well over 20 years ago, but it wasnt called Walking Street! It was just the continuation of Beach Rd. At that time there was far less traffic (hardly any private cars) and the traffic there was turned up South Rd as it does now, but then it was because the Beach Rd extension didnt actually lead anywhere. It just sort of fizzled out when you got past the hotels at the end as you near what is now the pier. In fact in those days if you walked past the last hotel there were no lights at all. So Walking Street was pedestrian de facto and there was just the occasional car or chartered bahtbus going along it in the evening.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

I think many expats have left and more are thinking about it because of the development scheme that seems to want to create a city that is not diverse in many ways.

More likely because they have gone broke.

No doubt some people left because of "going broke." But I personally know many people who were far from broke who left (they could have stayed). You can also look at it from another perspective: If money is the issue, why then have we not seen large numbers of rich farangs moving to Pattaya? Some have moved here, of course, but the demographics (socio-economic data) are mostly the same as ten years ago, at least from what I can see on the surface. Maybe there is something about the place that does not appeal to wealthy farangs like pollution, increased crime, traffic jams, dirty beaches and filthy water, scams and rip offs everywhere you go, poor infrastructure, prices going up while services go down, etc. I think saying some have gone broke and left is correct, but that simplifies what is actually happening and totally ignores any negative realities.