Red Shirts Gather At Democracy Monument.

[jayboy]

Some of the Redshirts were having a party, down the street and round the corner, after the rally last night. My wife stopped to chat with them & they told her that they were celebrating because they had been paid 500b each to attend. In the past they had just earned 300b each, but no-one was interested in going out for that price anymore.

There was some debate on Twitter last night with some of the more prominent, Thai-savy "farang" users insisting that the red shirts they had spoken to had gone completely on their own free will - going as far to say that this year things were "different".

But I also recognise yourself as a long-term TV user telling us what other Thai people have told me about every other red shirt rally - that people have indeed been salaried for their attendance.

Frankly I had my doubts the trend would be bucked this year, and it looks as if that's the case.

Many Bangkok based middle class Thais maintain the Reds only attend rallies because they are paid to do so.The same people often tend to say rural voters vote (except of course in the South since there they tend to vote the "right way) as they are instructed and paid.I have no doubt that payments are made.This is Thailand after all.

However to deny that among the millions of Red Shirt supporters there isn't genuine passion and desire for a better fairer Thailand is an absurd position to take.

[Insight]

Some of the Redshirts were having a party, down the street and round the corner, after the rally last night. My wife stopped to chat with them & they told her that they were celebrating because they had been paid 500b each to attend. In the past they had just earned 300b each, but no-one was interested in going out for that price anymore.

There was some debate on Twitter last night with some of the more prominent, Thai-savy "farang" users insisting that the red shirts they had spoken to had gone completely on their own free will - going as far to say that this year things were "different".

But I also recognise yourself as a long-term TV user telling us what other Thai people have told me about every other red shirt rally - that people have indeed been salaried for their attendance.

Frankly I had my doubts the trend would be bucked this year, and it looks as if that's the case.

Many Bangkok based middle class Thais maintain the Reds only attend rallies because they are paid to do so.The same people often tend to say rural voters vote (except of course in the South since there they tend to vote the "right way) as they are instructed and paid.I have no doubt that payments are made.This is Thailand after all.

However to deny that among the millions of Red Shirt supporters there isn't genuine passion and desire for a better fairer Thailand is an absurd position to take.

Big question is however how many would turn up if no payment was made...? Personally feel some of Sombat's "death aerobics" activities several months back gave us a clue; not many.

[jayboy]

Some of the Redshirts were having a party, down the street and round the corner, after the rally last night. My wife stopped to chat with them & they told her that they were celebrating because they had been paid 500b each to attend. In the past they had just earned 300b each, but no-one was interested in going out for that price anymore.

There was some debate on Twitter last night with some of the more prominent, Thai-savy "farang" users insisting that the red shirts they had spoken to had gone completely on their own free will - going as far to say that this year things were "different".

But I also recognise yourself as a long-term TV user telling us what other Thai people have told me about every other red shirt rally - that people have indeed been salaried for their attendance.

Frankly I had my doubts the trend would be bucked this year, and it looks as if that's the case.

Many Bangkok based middle class Thais maintain the Reds only attend rallies because they are paid to do so.The same people often tend to say rural voters vote (except of course in the South since there they tend to vote the "right way) as they are instructed and paid.I have no doubt that payments are made.This is Thailand after all.

However to deny that among the millions of Red Shirt supporters there isn't genuine passion and desire for a better fairer Thailand is an absurd position to take.

Big question is however how many would turn up if no payment was made...? Personally feel some of Sombat's "death aerobics" activities several months back gave us a clue; not many.

I'm not sure that's the big question at all.Looking at the broader context Thailand's resources have been ridiculously slewed to the urban middle class for decades - in education, health, infrastructure etc etc.The middle class has already been "bribed" on a scale that makes a few hundred Baht payment to an Isaan Red quite insignificant.The middle class openly cheat on their taxes and resent expenditure on the less fortunate.That's partly what the Red struggle is all about and explains the Democrat led Government's (I think) honourable and sensible efforts to deal with this injustice (and of course to use Thaksin's own weaponry against him).

I should think the Red core consists of quite a few tens of thousand particularly when one remembers from last year the surprising support from Bangkok based working class and lower middle class communities.On the other hand the numbers game can be very misleading.For example the recent yellow demonstrations have struggled to make up a crowd.It would be naive to extrapolate from this that the middle class support for PAD ideology has been seriously dented.

[thaihome]

We will see if they are the majority or not after the upcoming elections

The vote in Parliament for the constitution amendments last week was very telling for the future of the PTP and their hopes for a majority, even a coalition majority in the next election.

Most UDD apologist have already started switching tactics to attack the fairness of the election the date of which hasn’t even been announced, much less held.

TH

[Insight]

Big question is however how many would turn up if no payment was made...? Personally feel some of Sombat's "death aerobics" activities several months back gave us a clue; not many.

I'm not sure that's the big question at all.Looking at the broader context Thailand's resources have been ridiculously slewed to the urban middle class for decades - in education, health, infrastructure etc etc.The middle class has already been "bribed" on a scale that makes a few hundred Baht payment to an Isaan Red quite insignificant.The middle class openly cheat on their taxes and resent expenditure on the less fortunate.That's partly what the Red struggle is all about and explains the Democrat led Government's (I think) honourable and sensible efforts to deal with this injustice (and of course to use Thaksin's own weaponry against him).

I should think the Red core consists of quite a few tens of thousand particularly when one remembers from last year the surprising support from Bangkok based working class and lower middle class communities.On the other hand the numbers game can be very misleading.For example the recent yellow demonstrations have struggled to make up a crowd.It would be naive to extrapolate from this that the middle class support for PAD ideology has been seriously dented.

Sorry but not convinced. The "stipend" offered was already apparently cause for celebration from one account here, which gives some idea of its significance.

Notice that the Arab revolutions are happening within quick succession of each other - Tunisia, Egypt, apparently now Yemen is on the edge. If anti-govt feeling is naturally so strong why can't it happen here today or tomorrow? Why wait? Simple - because the momentum for one to happen naturally isn't there and can only be stimulated.

[Wangrin]

I have to agree. Its fine to protest; what the Red Shirts did before goes beyond the realms of a peaceful protest. The leaders of this need to be held accountable. The law should protect us from what happened; you cannot allow a group to inflict terror on to those who live and work in the area where the reds protested. Before you flame me, the yellow shirts and any other group should also keep to a peaceful protest within the law and not affect people going about their day to day business.

MaiChai, I guess you are american ?

How can you imagine people could improve their living conditions without showing they are ready to fight. See what is happening in the Maghreb, half of the planet inhabitants are willing to free themselves from their dictators and from american domination. American way is to extol peacefull changes and to make wars far from their backgrounds.

Note: I am French, we have beheaded our king !...

WEll I am American and we always hear thoughts like yours that extol the lack of merit of American influence, but all of your countries governments and citizens keep their hands out wanting the American dollar for doing nothing. It has been made to be a cliche to the ears of many of us Americans- Yankee go home, but send us your money. (World-class leftist beggars).

OK, got it, I now know who holds this forum's editorial line !

Hope you'll live long enough to see how far your country will decline...

(by the way, did your government settle it's account with the UN this year)

[ballpoint]

Ho-hum another day another pointless and inconvenient demonstration. Still got to credit them persistent little buggers. A bit like cancer.

But cancer keeps growing bigger till it kills the host.

This is more like shingles. A persistent painful annoyance.

I'd have said more like haemorrhoids.

[Pi Sek]

However to deny that among the millions of Red Shirt supporters there isn't genuine passion and desire for a better fairer Thailand is an absurd position to take.

Yes, I agree it is a hugely absurd position to take.

However, this isn't a Thai problem - you can say exactly the same about millions of the populace of any country I can think of. That's why I differentiate the Red Shirt movement (which wants a forward change in the democratic system) from the UDD (which wants a backward change in the democratic system). By this reasoning, the Red Shirt movement is a Thai faction of a global movement which I'd probably call "progress in terms of humanity".

That's why I don't doubt there are "millions of Red Shirt supporters", I have no doubt they number in the millions. Some on here would suggest that we'll find out in the elections but, given they are not all supportive of the UDD, they are presumably not all supportive of the PTP.

[jayboy]

Sorry but not convinced. The "stipend" offered was already apparently cause for celebration from one account here, which gives some idea of its significance.

Notice that the Arab revolutions are happening within quick succession of each other - Tunisia, Egypt, apparently now Yemen is on the edge. If anti-govt feeling is naturally so strong why can't it happen here today or tomorrow? Why wait? Simple - because the momentum for one to happen naturally isn't there and can only be stimulated.

I'm not sure what you're not convinced of.Are you saying without the stipend the Red movement would be insignificant?

The Arab situation is rather different.In Egypt for example there seems to be a virtual unanimity of purpose.In Thailand the country is much more bitterly divided.

[SomTumTiger]

Pocket Posting!!!!!

[gemini81]

I see we are getting ready for this years riot season.

that was my thought, building up for april, as the pattern goes. Usually you look at the past to often know the future. I do hope we are wrong! It's getting really old!

[Scott]

Ok, enough. Back to Thailand and back to the Red Shirts Gather at Democracy monument...

[rubl]

How many from ChiangMai joined the protests, anyone know?

As the main theme was 'free our leaders' I assume only the UDD faction of red-shirts was present?

Any info on what k. Thaksin and Robert A. have said during the video link-in?

Edited February 14, 2011 by rubl

[Jingthing]

We will see if they are the majority or not after the upcoming elections

They weren't the majority the last election, opinion polls show their support has declined since then. Do you seriously believe Black Songkran and the Burning of Bangkok improved their support among the silent majority of Thais?

[Pi Sek]

How many from ChiangMai joined the protests, anyone know?

As the main theme was 'free our leaders' I assume only the UDD faction of red-shirts was present?

Any info on what k. Thaksin and Robert A. have said during the video link-in?

Yes, I wondered about the Thaksin/Amsterdam phone in. I haven't heard a peep. I guess it's because the protest has nothing to do with Thaksin any more

As for the "free our leaders" bit, the protest was intended to be an opportunity for the new UDD leaders to read letters from the old UDD leaders... however, as many of the factions believe the imprisoned leaders are political prisoners rather than terrorists, I guess they had a reason to show up too.

I don't agree with what they think, but hey. I would have preferred a faction or three to say, "Well, we're protesting for the release of Red Shirt protesters on less serious charges, who were somewhere between cheering onlookers and arsonists, rather than the leaders who were really inciting us to burn the country down, kill Abhisit, etc." To do that, though, they'd have to break away from the "mainstream" UDD and maybe even fund themselves (stages, flyers, etc - not necessarily the protesters, but that might help too)...

Despite enjoying my fair share of Red bashing (it's so easy), I can't deny there is a point in all this somewhere as I said above. However, as long as the UDD continue to be the mainstream within the Reds, I'm afraid this situation will continue - no matter what the more radical (or, dare I say it, intelligent) Red Shirts are pushing for.

[Jingthing]

Yeah. Thailand needs a totally fresh reform movement, totally divorced from everything red shirt. Sure, they can recruit ex-red shirts but they need to divorce themselves from the smelly taint.

In other words, do a reset, seek out ethical leaders really in the spirit of Gandhi and Martin Luther King and so many other good examples in history, and be amazed at how broad the support could be, both domestically AND internationally.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Jingthing

[TAWP]

However to deny that among the millions of Red Shirt supporters there isn't genuine passion and desire for a better fairer Thailand is an absurd position to take.

It is not about a better fairer Thailand, it is about a 'GIVE ME, GIVE ME'-attitude. It is the same all over the world, perhaps even more so in leftist Europe, where people feel entitled to get money from others that work hard.

Listen, I have all the sympathy for people that work hard and get screwed over -- often by the abuse of corporations in cahoots with politicians -- but don't for a second think that any majority of the protesters or their leaders has any true understanding that this is the case, how to remedy or that it would get better if any of them was in power.

Until I see any suggestions from them on how to truly counter the corporatism that exist here [and back home] then I will believe it is the same populist/leftist agenda as we have seen so many times before...'GIVE ME'.

Edited February 14, 2011 by TAWP

[Jingthing]

I think it's a gross oversimplification to see Thai politics in a pure, left-right framework.

[jayboy]

It is not about a better fairer Thailand, it is about a 'GIVE ME, GIVE ME'-attitude. It is the same all over the world, perhaps even more so in leftist Europe, where people feel entitled to get money from others that work hard.

Many will have a sharply different view from yourself as to where the GIVE ME GIVE ME attitude can be found in Thailand.

[bulmercke]

QUOTE(livinginexile):"We will see if they are the majority or not after the upcoming elections."

There won't be elections this year. The army won't allow them.

[rubl]

QUOTE(livinginexile):"We will see if they are the majority or not after the upcoming elections."

There won't be elections this year. The army won't allow them.

Thank you for your opinion. I assume you're also waiting for the next coup which as some have it will come one way or another, even if they have to do it themselves

Still if the House is not dissolved before the mid of November the next general elections will indeed not be this year, but begin of next year. All very legal, law abiding as well. Democracy at work

[Jingthing]

There will be elections, that isn't the question, the question is whether Thaksin will finally accept he will have finally lost.

[bulmercke]

QUOTE(livinginexile):"We will see if they are the majority or not after the upcoming elections."

There won't be elections this year. The army won't allow them.

Thank you for your opinion. I assume you're also waiting for the next coup which as some have it will come one way or another, even if they have to do it themselves

Still if the House is not dissolved before the mid of November the next general elections will indeed not be this year, but begin of next year. All very legal, law abiding as well. Democracy at work

Whether the House is dissolved before mid-November or later is immaterial. I strongly believe that the military will stage a coup - sometime later this year - and in doing usurp any authority Abhisit and the Democrats may have thought they had up to this moment.

In short - the military daren't risk him calling a general election. Also - the recent events in Egpyt and now Yemen have probably given them a few additional and useful ideas to benefit their own selfish and undemocratic agenda.

[Insight]

QUOTE(livinginexile):"We will see if they are the majority or not after the upcoming elections."

There won't be elections this year. The army won't allow them.

Thank you for your opinion. I assume you're also waiting for the next coup which as some have it will come one way or another, even if they have to do it themselves

Still if the House is not dissolved before the mid of November the next general elections will indeed not be this year, but begin of next year. All very legal, law abiding as well. Democracy at work

Whether the House is dissolved before mid-November or later is immaterial. I strongly believe that the military will stage a coup - sometime later this year - and in doing usurp any authority Abhisit and the Democrats may have thought they had up to this moment.

In short - the military daren't risk him calling a general election. Also - the recent events in Egpyt and now Yemen have probably given them a few additional and useful ideas to benefit their own selfish and undemocratic agenda.

If this does happen I'm sure sympathy for the red shirts will surge; the lack of interest in the PAD from their past supporters is an indication of how much non-red folk would settle for an alternative government.

And I'm sure the army appreciate this is a major risk with a coup, which is why I believe it is unlikely to happen.

[bulmercke]

There will be elections, that isn't the question, the question is whether Thaksin will finally accept he will have finally lost.

Jingthing - there won't be elections this year. That I'm sure about even if this board abounds with skeptics and cynics to that fact.

[Jingthing]

If it's true that Abhisit is a total puppet of the military anyway, and that any election can be fixed, why bother with a coup?

[Insight]

There will be elections, that isn't the question, the question is whether Thaksin will finally accept he will have finally lost.

Jingthing - there won't be elections this year. That I'm sure about even if this board abounds with skeptics and cynics to that fact.

There's only one way I think somebody could be so sure of this.

I hope Abhisit keeps himself well and truly safe over the next obviously turbulent few months.

[bulmercke]

If it's true that Abhisit is a total puppet of the military anyway, and that any election can be fixed, why bother with a coup?

The Election Commission at the moment appears to be fairly impartial and diligent about its duties and responsibilities. Also - in the last election the PPP majority over the Democrats was about seventy seats. This is problematic for the Democrats and the military and there is no certainty that the events of last year may have dented this margin.

Despite the imposition of the ISA and the demands of the Royal Thai Police both the Yellows and the Reds will be allowed to protest this year and intensify their respective campaigns to such a scale and intensity when there will undoubtedly be a moment when either one or other of the opposing groups over-steps the boundary and then the army will conveniently move in and stage a coup in the interests of national security.

The excuse will then be that no election can be held at that time or at any other time in the immediate future because of the threat of violent tumult and unrest should an election be held. All very convenient.

[rubl]

QUOTE(livinginexile):"We will see if they are the majority or not after the upcoming elections."

There won't be elections this year. The army won't allow them.

Thank you for your opinion. I assume you're also waiting for the next coup which as some have it will come one way or another, even if they have to do it themselves

Still if the House is not dissolved before the mid of November the next general elections will indeed not be this year, but begin of next year. All very legal, law abiding as well. Democracy at work

Whether the House is dissolved before mid-November or later is immaterial. I strongly believe that the military will stage a coup - sometime later this year - and in doing usurp any authority Abhisit and the Democrats may have thought they had up to this moment.

In short - the military daren't risk him calling a general election. Also - the recent events in Egpyt and now Yemen have probably given them a few additional and useful ideas to benefit their own selfish and undemocratic agenda.

Thanks for the explanation. I believe differently, I think the military and others have learned that a coup like in 2006 you cannot have too often and expect the same result. Anyway legally the next general elections have to be before the middle of February 2012 or so. We'll see

[Buchholz]

How many from ChiangMai joined the protests, anyone know?

As the main theme was 'free our leaders' I assume only the UDD faction of red-shirts was present?

Any info on what k. Thaksin and Robert A. have said during the video link-in?

Yes, I wondered about the Thaksin/Amsterdam phone in. I haven't heard a peep. I guess it's because the protest has nothing to do with Thaksin any more

Phone-In:

"We don't want anything but peace and hope the country returns to normal," said the tycoon-turned-premier, who lives overseas -- mostly in Dubai -- to avoid a jail sentence for corruption

http://www.skynews.com.au/politics/article.aspx?id=577105&vId=2178897

"Symbol of democracy"... for Red Shirts who say it's not about him... and he doesn't know them..

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

A protester, holding a sign showing ousted Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, attends an anti-government rally at Thailand's Democracy Monument Sunday, Feb. 13, 2011, in Bangkok. Red Shirt protesters continue to hold twice monthly demonstrations.

AP

Anti-government "red shirt" protesters hold a picture of former Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra as they wait for him to address them over a link during a rally near the Democracy monument, in Bangkok February 13, 2011.

REUTERS

As for Amsterdam... perhaps he reiterated along this theme regarding Ahbisit:

"This man could drown in the blood that’s on his hands," said Robert Amsterdam, a D.C.-based attorney for former Thai Premier Thaksin Shinawatra, at a recent press conference in Japan.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/thailand/110211/prime-minister-abhisit-vejjajiva-british-citizenship