Thai PM Abhisit Says He May Be British

[samran]

There goes the election.

How do you figure?

Thais are extremely nationalistic.

It actually should read 'Thais are extremely selective when it suits them best.'

Oberkommando is correct, there is a huge streak of nationalism that runs through Thailand. Ole dear leader himself (Thaksin) became terribly unpopular when he flogged of Thai Air Asia to the Singaporeans. In my estimation this marked the begining of the end of his Prime Ministership. Sale of public assets are also regularly greeted with 'selling the nation'.

Having said that, I disagree that it will have too much of an effect on Abhisit. Those who already hate him will hate him even more. Those who support him won't care.

His access to British citizenship won't change one actual vote...

[random]

some people in their desire to exonerate their hero abhist seem to be missing the point, the legality is not always what seems sensible, the legality is what it is and the procedures that follow are what they are.

You don;t have to accept the citizenship, the fact is he was born in the UK at a certain time and this makes him a British Citizen, the laws do not say you opt in, the laws say you have to opt out, this is something he did not do and as such he is still classed as a British citizen, he is also Thai, he has a dual nationality, as a British citizen he can be chased through the court by Amsterdam.

The fact is he did not renounce his citizenship of the UK, ignorance to this is no defence, the law is the law, he is a British Citizen, personally I am more amazed that he denied this and I am amazed that people are trying to justify just because they want him in power, they are quick to criticise Thaksin for his wrongs but make excuses for abhisit and his wrongs.

Now correct me if I am wrong but abhisit denied he was a British citizen, one would guess that when it was mentioned that as a British citizen it opened up another avenue to Amsterdam to chase him, so you would think that abhisit would have checked the laws in relation to this, but still denied he was a British citizen, this is an outright lie, his birth certificate was shown yesterday in parliament and only then did he admit he was a British citizen.

The guy has had plenty of practice with cover ups, he can control the press in Thailand, he can oversee/order the mass slaughter of unarmed civilians and then collude to cover up the death afterwards, he can wriggle his way out of charges regarding the EC, he can come to power despite his party not winning an election, he can collude with the PAD etc etc etc

But this is one lie he told that he can not run away from, he can not cover up, the British government is not under his control and will not submit to his demands to not disclose stuff.

I know many of you don't like it, but he is what he is, legally he is a British citizen and he chose to be frugal with the truth on this matter, makes you wonder what else he has not been forthcoming about, and some of you say this guy is the best option??

I think to some of you the best option is anyone providing they don't wear red, sad state of affairs.

[softgeorge]

Hahahaha! The Thai PM is a farang!!!! Very stealth, but the British invasion has already happened

Is he alowed to buy land?

that's a great question softgeorge

if his name is on a chanote then he must be Thai or maybe he slipped someone 1000 at the land office.........

I was curious because we wanted to put land in my sons name. When the land office saw his name which is farang they asked if he had dual citizenship. They said he would have to give his Australian citizenship to own land in Thailand. If Ashbit owns land here then that would be double standars for the eleite as opposed to the common farang in the same situation.

[exbelg]

IF he really is, he better start working for us FARANGS to give us some basic right like owning land, or he better start selling all his properties here in Thailand,

don't you think ?

[hammered]

The ole rdshirts need to mobilise the ultra-nationalists who back them in many rural communities and the old Abhisit aint Thai thing plays with some. It isnt difficult to find ex-red gaur in the red shirts and these kinds lap uop this macho xenophobic stuff. That is democracy for you. Nationalism is used the world over to generate votes

[Thai at Heart]

Hahahaha! The Thai PM is a farang!!!! Very stealth, but the British invasion has already happened

Is he alowed to buy land?

that's a great question softgeorge

if his name is on a chanote then he must be Thai or maybe he slipped someone 1000 at the land office.........

I was curious because we wanted to put land in my sons name. When the land office saw his name which is farang they asked if he had dual citizenship. They said he would have to give his Australian citizenship to own land in Thailand. If Ashbit owns land here then that would be double standars for the eleite as opposed to the common farang in the same situation.

i think a trip back to the land office is in order. Never had this opposition. I think your land office is badly misinformed, unless they were acting under the impression that you were using your son as a proxy.

[softgeorge]

No Thai At Heart they did not think it was proxy. The land was owned by his grandfather passed down through generations nothing what so ever to do with me. The land office says even if family land the person must not have dual citizenship. Maybe they are scared that a dual citizen will live abroad and take revenue from the land abroad, I don't know.

[Thai at Heart]

No Thai At Heart they did not think it was proxy. The land was owned by his grandfather passed down through generations nothing what so ever to do with me. The land office says even if family land the person must not have dual citizenship. Maybe they are scared that a dual citizen will live abroad and take revenue from the land abroad, I don't know.

I wasn't implying you did anything wrong. In the eyes of Thai law, your son is Thai, just as is Abhisit. No if's no but's. He can own land.

There is no obligation on any Thai to declare if they have a second citizenship, and if they do have, this in no way impinges on their rights as a Thai citizen, hence why Abhisit has dual nationality. He is being hung out to dry because as PM of the country, he is a public figure, and there is a valid debate possibly on whether the PM should have dual nationality. But as it stands, he is allowed, so unless they change the law, or the public outcry is so big that he voluntarily renounces it for political expediency, he is perfectly entitled to maintain his dual citizenship.

I await the day that some quick witted luk kreung is denied a government job because of perceived dual nationality and sues under the constitution.

[samran]

No Thai At Heart they did not think it was proxy. The land was owned by his grandfather passed down through generations nothing what so ever to do with me. The land office says even if family land the person must not have dual citizenship. Maybe they are scared that a dual citizen will live abroad and take revenue from the land abroad, I don't know.

I wasn't implying you did anything wrong. In the eyes of Thai law, your son is Thai, just as is Abhisit. No if's no but's. He can own land.

There is no obligation on any Thai to declare if they have a second citizenship, and if they do have, this in no way impinges on their rights as a Thai citizen, hence why Abhisit has dual nationality. He is being hung out to dry because as PM of the country, he is a public figure, and there is a valid debate possibly on whether the PM should have dual nationality. But as it stands, he is allowed, so unless they change the law, or the public outcry is so big that he voluntarily renounces it for political expediency, he is perfectly entitled to maintain his dual citizenship.

I await the day that some quick witted luk kreung is denied a government job because of perceived dual nationality and sues under the constitution.

I know a hand full of middle ranking officals with dual thai/UK or Thai/US citizenship. There is already a precedent.

[Thai at Heart]

No Thai At Heart they did not think it was proxy. The land was owned by his grandfather passed down through generations nothing what so ever to do with me. The land office says even if family land the person must not have dual citizenship. Maybe they are scared that a dual citizen will live abroad and take revenue from the land abroad, I don't know.

I wasn't implying you did anything wrong. In the eyes of Thai law, your son is Thai, just as is Abhisit. No if's no but's. He can own land.

There is no obligation on any Thai to declare if they have a second citizenship, and if they do have, this in no way impinges on their rights as a Thai citizen, hence why Abhisit has dual nationality. He is being hung out to dry because as PM of the country, he is a public figure, and there is a valid debate possibly on whether the PM should have dual nationality. But as it stands, he is allowed, so unless they change the law, or the public outcry is so big that he voluntarily renounces it for political expediency, he is perfectly entitled to maintain his dual citizenship.

I await the day that some quick witted luk kreung is denied a government job because of perceived dual nationality and sues under the constitution.

I know a hand full of middle ranking officals with dual thai/UK or Thai/US citizenship. There is already a precedent.

Correct. But the example I gave up top will happen one day. I know of many luk kreung of mixed blood who own land either through inheritance or purchase. They are Thai, no debate needed.

[samran]

No Thai At Heart they did not think it was proxy. The land was owned by his grandfather passed down through generations nothing what so ever to do with me. The land office says even if family land the person must not have dual citizenship. Maybe they are scared that a dual citizen will live abroad and take revenue from the land abroad, I don't know.

I wasn't implying you did anything wrong. In the eyes of Thai law, your son is Thai, just as is Abhisit. No if's no but's. He can own land.

There is no obligation on any Thai to declare if they have a second citizenship, and if they do have, this in no way impinges on their rights as a Thai citizen, hence why Abhisit has dual nationality. He is being hung out to dry because as PM of the country, he is a public figure, and there is a valid debate possibly on whether the PM should have dual nationality. But as it stands, he is allowed, so unless they change the law, or the public outcry is so big that he voluntarily renounces it for political expediency, he is perfectly entitled to maintain his dual citizenship.

I await the day that some quick witted luk kreung is denied a government job because of perceived dual nationality and sues under the constitution.

I know a hand full of middle ranking officals with dual thai/UK or Thai/US citizenship. There is already a precedent.

Correct. But the example I gave up top will happen one day. I know of many luk kreung of mixed blood who own land either through inheritance or purchase. They are Thai, no debate needed.

I see your point. I should have added though that this quick witted leuk krueng was a government adviser back in the early 2000's. Been there done that.

Since then, I have been an external adviser...

[dasy]

Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

Apparently you can...After all Abhisit is currently in office....

Samak was also in office giving cooking classes which got him fired: never a dull moment

[Nisa]

I personally think this is more of a very ugly attempt of slamming the entire Thai system by the Reds. One needs to consider that others were born in a country, such as the US, that gives citizenship to people born there. That is all I am going to say given the rules of this forum.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Nisa

[ballpoint]

Ah, sour grapes.

PPP did win and they did get the most votes. Very simple.

All that in spite of the Junta ordering PPP activities to be suppressed and for them to be framed with LM charges in the run up to the elections.

They would have won by a far bigger margin had they been competing on a level playing field.

We'll have to wait to see if Abhisit can win that elusive first general election victory eh?

Abhisit and Korn will walk the next election

does anyone know the name of anyone else that's a credible or even incredible choice?

thought not

those names are about as elusive as are visitors to Oberkommando's website -farangtalk

the most visitors ever-------13!

13 is a propitious number!

A small one.

I believe the correct term is "unprecedented numbers".

[sungod]

I personally think this is more of a very ugly attempt of slamming the entire Thai system by the Reds. One needs to consider that others were born in a country, such as the US, that gives citizenship to people born there. That is all I am going to say given the rules of this forum.

Which was my point on Thais being selective on issues when it best suits them.

[DickFarang]

Pinochet was arrested in the UK at the request of a Spanish judge.

IMO Abhisit can be arrested in any EU country at the request of an Italian judge.

And he cannot claim to be too old.

[DickFarang]

Hahahaha! The Thai PM is a farang!!!! Very stealth, but the British invasion has already happened

Is he alowed to buy land?

that's a great question softgeorge

if his name is on a chanote then he must be Thai or maybe he slipped someone 1000 at the land office.........

I was curious because we wanted to put land in my sons name. When the land office saw his name which is farang they asked if he had dual citizenship. They said he would have to give his Australian citizenship to own land in Thailand. If Ashbit owns land here then that would be double standars for the eleite as opposed to the common farang in the same situation.

TiT

[Arkady]

"Reds have argued that Abhisit could be held to account by the body if he is a citizen of Britain, which is a signatory of the pact"

Is Montenigro a signatory ?.....if so then may be the PM can file a petition for investigation of crimes against humanity for another "famous" dual national from Thailand and they can stand in the dock together....

IMHO the reds are grasping at straws.

Montenegro is a state party of Statute of Rome of the ICC, as are Uganda and Fiji, of which Thaksin may also be a citizen. Montenegro didn't exist at the time of Thaksin's own human rights abuses but that should prevent the Democrats making hay with a counter allegation.

[gemini81]

"Reds have argued that Abhisit could be held to account by the body if he is a citizen of Britain, which is a signatory of the pact"

Is Montenigro a signatory ?.....if so then may be the PM can file a petition for investigation of crimes against humanity for another "famous" dual national from Thailand and they can stand in the dock together....

IMHO the reds are grasping at straws.

Montenegro is a state party of Statute of Rome of the ICC, as are Uganda and Fiji, of which Thaksin may also be a citizen. Montenegro didn't exist at the time of Thaksin's own human rights abuses but that should prevent the Democrats making hay with a counter allegation.

exactly. but they're full of holes and contradictions. I think they're beyond desperate to dig up any dirt. More credit to the PM if in fact he is, that will break boundaries and also make a good future for my own dual citizen daughter!

[Robby nz]

Pinochet was arrested in the UK at the request of a Spanish judge.

IMO Abhisit can be arrested in any EU country at the request of an Italian judge.

And he cannot claim to be too old.

Didnt realise an Italian judge had asked for him to be arrested.

Could you tell us what the charges are please.

[Arkady]

No Thai At Heart they did not think it was proxy. The land was owned by his grandfather passed down through generations nothing what so ever to do with me. The land office says even if family land the person must not have dual citizenship. Maybe they are scared that a dual citizen will live abroad and take revenue from the land abroad, I don't know.

The Land Code is unclear on this point. It specifies that aliens cannot own land, except in certain circumstances, but it does not cover the case of aliens who are also Thai. There used to be complex Interior Ministry regulations relating to land ownership rights of Thai women married to aliens and their children. The women were allowed to keep land they owned before marriage (or cohabitation) but could not buy any more and could not even pass the land they owned before marriage to their children without special permission. However, all of this regulation was repealed due to two other pieces of legislation: 1) the 1992 Nationality Act that allowed Thai women to pass their nationality to their children without exception; 2) the ministerial regulation of 1999 that allowed Thai women (and men) married to (or cohabiting with) aliens to buy land without detailed investigation by signing a declaration along with their alien spouses regarding the source of funds.

I think that the Land Dept official was speaking through his arse. In your position I would politely ask him (or get a lawyer to ask him) to reference the ministerial regulation that supports his position and I am sure he will be stumped and just rant and rave about knowing the law due to his many years' in the Land Dept. Otherwise, you are fully entitled to take your son's case to the Administrative Court to arbitrate.

[Thai at Heart]

No Thai At Heart they did not think it was proxy. The land was owned by his grandfather passed down through generations nothing what so ever to do with me. The land office says even if family land the person must not have dual citizenship. Maybe they are scared that a dual citizen will live abroad and take revenue from the land abroad, I don't know.

The Land Code is unclear on this point. It specifies that aliens cannot own land, except in certain circumstances, but it does not cover the case of aliens who are also Thai. There used to be complex Interior Ministry regulations relating to land ownership rights of Thai women married to aliens and their children. The women were allowed to keep land they owned before marriage (or cohabitation) but could not buy any more and could not even pass the land they owned before marriage to their children without special permission. However, all of this regulation was repealed due to two other pieces of legislation: 1) the 1992 Nationality Act that allowed Thai women to pass their nationality to their children without exception; 2) the ministerial regulation of 1999 that allowed Thai women (and men) married to (or cohabiting with) aliens to buy land without detailed investigation by signing a declaration along with their alien spouses regarding the source of funds.

I think that the Land Dept official was speaking through his arse. In your position I would politely ask him (or get a lawyer to ask him) to reference the ministerial regulation that supports his position and I am sure he will be stumped and just rant and rave about knowing the law due to his many years' in the Land Dept. Otherwise, you are fully entitled to take your son's case to the Administrative Court to arbitrate.

On the basis that Tilleke and Gibbins are quite well connected, this is their translation of the relevant law

http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/publications/thailand_legal_basics/land_systems.pdf

Seems to cover just about every eventuality.

[Arkady]

A friend of mine is German, his wife Thai, their baby is born in UK.

After three years the parents can decide if the baby is UK citizen, but has to give up Thai or German nationality, or UK..

The Nationality Act from the UNO (2001) allows two nationalities. (Thailand signed)

Special agreements between the countries are possible.

Another friend is German, his wife Thai, 3 children are born in Thailand. They live in Germany. One daughter already could buy land in Thailand, not the parents. But if she wants to be officer for the German government, she has to give up her Thai nationality.

Informal information, laws change quicker than I my underwear, and I'm not dirty.

No need to give up any other nationality to become British but those born in the UK to foreign parents after 1983 have to wait 10 years to register as British and must still be living in the UK at that time. Germany still forces people to renounce original nationality to become German by naturalisation and they demand to see the renunciation certificate. This is blatant racism as they still have want to keep Turks from getting German nationality. Some changes to the law have recently been forced by activists and it is unlikely the German prohibition on dual nationality will survive another generation. The trend in Europe is towards freely allowing dual or multiple nationality. The UK was the first in the late 40s. Recently Italy followed suit and Holland and Germany have recently relaxed the laws slightly. The real surprise though is Vietnam which recently repealed its anti-dual laws completely.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Arkady

[Arkady]

You cannot give up or renounce British Citizenship it is always available under whatever mechanism that you obtained it in the first place

Not correct. You can renounce British citizenship and there is a UKBA form available at British Embassies and standard and rather expensive fee for doing this. The renunciation becomes effective after approval by the Home Office after statutory checks have been made to ensure the renouncer has another nationality and will not become stateless (some idiots living in the UK without another nationality try to renounce nationality as a political statement). The process normally takes at least 6 months. Those who renounce citizenship have a one time right to re-register as British, if they have documentary evidence to prove that the renunciation was necessary in order to obtain or retain another nationality. The right is automatic but subject to character and criminal record checks and applicants have to wait in a queue that takes at least a year, as well as pay a fat fee. Without the evidence that that they had to renounce in order to obtain or retain another nationality re-registration is up to the discretion of the Home Secretary and Home Office guidelines state this will normally only be granted, if there is evidence that the applicant is settled permanently in the UK or has convincing plans to do so.

[DickFarang]

Pinochet was arrested in the UK at the request of a Spanish judge.

IMO Abhisit can be arrested in any EU country at the request of an Italian judge.

And he cannot claim to be too old.

Didnt realise an Italian judge had asked for him to be arrested.

Could you tell us what the charges are please.

An Italian journalist was killed by a sniper or did you not know that ?

[Sao Jiang Mai]

If you are Thai, you can own land, it is as simple as that. I have Brit and Thai passports and own land in Thailand. So no problem there at all, tell the official to proove that your son has an Aus passport, which he can't. So as long as there is a Thai ID card he is OK. As to Abhisit, it looks like the lying thing was rather dodgy, am dissapointed in him in that, but the fact is he was given British citizenship and never chose to use it, seems like he is more Thai than many others who try to finangle foreign citizenships for other purposes. It would have made his life much easier to have had a Brit passport for travel and other purposes but he obviously chose to use his Thai. Sounds pretty good to me. But as I said, am dissapointed that it took him so long to talk straight.

[DickFarang]

No Thai At Heart they did not think it was proxy. The land was owned by his grandfather passed down through generations nothing what so ever to do with me. The land office says even if family land the person must not have dual citizenship. Maybe they are scared that a dual citizen will live abroad and take revenue from the land abroad, I don't know.

The Land Code is unclear on this point. It specifies that aliens cannot own land, except in certain circumstances, but it does not cover the case of aliens who are also Thai. There used to be complex Interior Ministry regulations relating to land ownership rights of Thai women married to aliens and their children. The women were allowed to keep land they owned before marriage (or cohabitation) but could not buy any more and could not even pass the land they owned before marriage to their children without special permission. However, all of this regulation was repealed due to two other pieces of legislation: 1) the 1992 Nationality Act that allowed Thai women to pass their nationality to their children without exception; 2) the ministerial regulation of 1999 that allowed Thai women (and men) married to (or cohabiting with) aliens to buy land without detailed investigation by signing a declaration along with their alien spouses regarding the source of funds.

I think that the Land Dept official was speaking through his arse. In your position I would politely ask him (or get a lawyer to ask him) to reference the ministerial regulation that supports his position and I am sure he will be stumped and just rant and rave about knowing the law due to his many years' in the Land Dept. Otherwise, you are fully entitled to take your son's case to the Administrative Court to arbitrate.

Children with dual nationality have to opt for one upon their majority (20 years):

Section 14. A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father or mother and has acquired the nationality of the father or mother according to the law on nationality of the father or mother, or a person who acquired Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph two or Section 12/1 (2) and (3) is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining the age of 20 years, according to such forms and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father, mother, or a foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is engaged in armed conflict or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any renunciation of Thai nationality.

Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.

[jdinasia]

Pinochet was arrested in the UK at the request of a Spanish judge.

IMO Abhisit can be arrested in any EU country at the request of an Italian judge.

And he cannot claim to be too old.

Didnt realise an Italian judge had asked for him to be arrested.

Could you tell us what the charges are please.

An Italian journalist was killed by a sniper or did you not know that ?

Rather off topic ... but hey.

Can the Italian Judge certify/prove who fired the shot etc .... No.

Can he be arrested? probably not.

Does it have anything to do with him being "British"? No.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

@Arkady

>>The Land Code is unclear on this point. It specifies that aliens cannot own land, except in certain circumstances, but it does not cover the case of aliens who are also Thai. There used to be complex Interior Ministry regulations relating to land ownership rights of Thai women married to aliens and their children. The women were allowed to keep land they owned <snip>

But these dual nationals *aren't* "aliens". They are Thai citizens in every sense entitled to all their rights as such. And I'm sure more so than with other country's citizens they are "Thai first".

It sounds to me (I'm must speculating) that Abhisit is only technically/potentially a UK citizen. In other words, it seems that he is eligible to claim such status, but he would have to actively do so to be one - e.g applying for a UK passport.

But actually doing so would of course be very damaging to any politician's career, even in less rabidly nationalistic countries. For example, regardless of the legal issues, I doubt if Obama would have been able to win office as Senator (much less President!) if he'd actually been a dual citizen due to his Indonesian background.

[DickFarang]

Pinochet was arrested in the UK at the request of a Spanish judge.

IMO Abhisit can be arrested in any EU country at the request of an Italian judge.

And he cannot claim to be too old.

Didnt realise an Italian judge had asked for him to be arrested.

Could you tell us what the charges are please.

An Italian journalist was killed by a sniper or did you not know that ?

Rather off topic ... but hey.

Can the Italian Judge certify/prove who fired the shot etc .... No.

Can he be arrested? probably not.

Does it have anything to do with him being "British"? No.

Was Pinochet British ?

Being British will not help Abhisit.