Do You Think The Russification Of Pattaya Is A Good Thing Or Not?

[mark45y]

For a number of years I was responsible for hiring executive chef's at Hilton Hotels. Our guests were an international crowd from all over the world.

We hired both education and experience. Culinary schools the world over teach French cooking. Culinary schools in NY teach French cooking. Culinary schools in Switzerland teach French cooking. Kitchens are organized and named in the French style of cooking. Executive chef, Sous chef, Chefs de Parti, Saucier: fish, sautéed dishes, stews, hot hors d'ouevers, hot entrees and sauces. Commands after the sous chef.

Rotissieur: Prepares items roasted in the oven and on the spit. Works under the Saucier.

Friturier: fry cook - responsible for deep fried foods. Works under the Saucier.

Grillardin: responsible for grilled foods. Works under the Saucier.

Garde Manger: Processes raw meat, cold dishes, forcemeat, pies, galantines and cold hors d'ouevres. Next in line after the saucier for command.

Charcutier, and Butcher: work under the Garde Manger

Entremetre: Vegetable cook, responsible for soups (sometimes saucier does this), vegetables, pasta, and foods made of flour, eggs and cheese..

Potager: soup cook, originally was under the supervision of the Entremetier

Patissier: Pastry chef: all basic desserts, hot desserts, cold desserts, frozen desserts and hot and cold pastries.

Boulanger and Glacier: work under the Patissier

Other cooking stations are Tournant (swing cook), de Garde (duty chef), de Nuit (night chef), Banquet chef, etc.

Commis: assistants to the chefs de partie. Usually journeyman cooks.

Apprentices: training in each of the parties in turn to learn the entire kitchen.

The textbooks are in French. Service standards are French. The world of cooking is French first.

There is no debate about fine food. It is French first, Chinese second. There is no American, British, Thai, Australian or Russian fine dining. It is silly to suggest there is. Any classically trained chef can walk into a Thai kitchen and do a better job than Somchai and produce better food with about 30 minutes of watching the procedure. All the basic skills are French. Somchai or Ivan would be lost trying to perform the basic tasks of a Patissier,Boulanger and Glacier. It is like comparing a professional triathlete to a 6 year old volleyball player. Four years, 12 hours a day of textbook learning and hands on training just scratches the surface of French cooking for the talented student. My God it takes three years to learn how to bake bread if you can even find a master baker anymore!

Russian cooking and service is very basic and can be completely covered in a few months of training, Italian a bit more complicated and a few more days of reading.

Good or bad taste is of course up to the individual.

A lot of Americans actually like Budweiser beer! But to say Bud is a great beer should be a public hanging offense. The Brits make great beer. The Scots, great whiskey, but you have to give the title of great food to the French.

[surayu]

...

I have to agree with Mark45y about the french cuisine, after all, you just have to open the menu of restaurants all over the world to find out: french pasta, french pizza, french spaghetti, french lasagne, french cappuccino (should i go on with it?), anyway an article some time ago claimed the lasagna was brit and i believe there is a member here which is sure the pizza is american, so maybe not all french then, sorry for the OT, salut

[mark45y]

...

I have to agree with Mark45y about the french cuisine, after all, you just have to open the menu of restaurants all over the world to find out: french pasta, french pizza, french spaghetti, french lasagne, french cappuccino (should i go on with it?), anyway an article some time ago claimed the lasagna was brit and i believe there is a member here which is sure the pizza is american, so maybe not all french then, sorry for the OT, salut

Talk about missing the point......

Popular is not the same as good or great.

There are more comic books sold than hard copies of great literature.

Russian or Italian food or MacDonald's resembles a comic book.

Low class or uneducated people have low class or uneducated tastes.

Sometimes cultural traditions replace class and education.

British people have an advanced, educated palate when it comes to beer. The French have an advanced, educated palate when it comes to food.

One can rant all day long about the greatness of Tequila or Vodka but the difference between great and mediocre are slight. The same can not be said about wine. Throw a little ox blood in the Chianti and no one notices. Anyone who actually drinks cappuccino deserves anything they get anyway.

[surayu]

Sorry about having to (frere)HiJack this topic again, but.....ehhrmm, ok, so, are you telling us that if something gets popular then automatically it's something without quality or value? i understand we are in Thailand now, but c'mon..... you don't have to adopt local cliches to show us the superiority of a classy and educated person, all it's needed is an Elite Card translated in french, being rational it's so lo-so nowadays isn't?

Starting your day with a mix of Chianti, beer, Tequila and Vodka instead of a cappuccino at this stage can only help you with your cause

[Daailo]

A lot of Americans actually like Budweiser beer! But to say Bud is a great beer should be a public hanging offense. The Brits make great beer. The Scots, great whiskey, but you have to give the title of great food to the French.

Appologies for being pedantic, and off topic - America and Ireland might make great whiskey, but the Scots make even better whisky.

[mark45y]

Sorry about having to (frere)HiJack this topic again, but.....ehhrmm, ok, so, are you telling us that if something gets popular then automatically it's something without quality or value? i understand we are in Thailand now, but c'mon..... you don't have to adopt local cliches to show us the superiority of a classy and educated person, all it's needed is an Elite Card translated in french, being rational it's so lo-so nowadays isn't?

Starting your day with a mix of Chianti, beer, Tequila and Vodka instead of a cappuccino at this stage can only help you with your cause

Russian food can be good. It is a nice addition to the already international menu in Pattaya. But great food? No. Great Russian wines? No.

Great food will never be popular because it will always be too expensive for the average consumer.

It takes time and money to go to school or be an apprentice to a great chef.

There is a grain of truth in what you say, but it is not that popularity makes a food mediocre. It is that great food can never be produced in the quantity to make it available to the masses.

Of all of the beef produced in the world less than 1% is dry aged prime beef. Somchai or Ivan is never going to taste the best. The Shah of Iran used to fly pizza's from one restaurant in Chicago on his personal jet back to Iran. Was that the best pizza in the world? I don't know, the Shah and I liked it the best. Is Russian food going to put Pattaya on the international diners must eat list? No.

When I go to Pattaya what kind of food do I eat? Russian? No. I eat French food in Pattaya because I am not there frequently and the French restaurants are good and reasonable. Given a chance I would love to meet some Russian women in Pattaya of the non professional variety and take them out to eat. In that case I would be looking for a Russian restaurant.

Why do I think the Russification of Pattaya is a good thing? The Russian women.

[tropo]

Good or bad taste is of course up to the individual.

Whether it tastes good or bad is up to the individual. Don't presume to tell an individual he has bad taste because your text book chefs say it's so. That's a elitist attitude and typical in the West, especially in France.

Now you're going to tell millions of Russians, American and Australian etc that they have lousy cuisine too.

As I said before, and I'll say it again. I've seen too many Asians salivate over items I could not eat and what most Westerners would not even consider to be food. Now you're going to tell them they have bad taste.

[tropo]

Low class or uneducated people have low class or uneducated tastes.

I missed this gem. It's all about class and education.

People with no money are low class and have bad taste. People with money are high class and have good taste.

Now we have it figured out.

[mark45y]

Low class or uneducated people have low class or uneducated tastes.

I missed this gem. It's all about class and education.

People with no money are low class and have bad taste. People with money are high class and have good taste.

Now we have it figured out.

Bordeaux Wine Official Classification of 1855.

The wines were ranked in importance from first to fifth growths (crus). All of the red wines that made it on the list came from the Médoc region except for one: Château Haut-Brion from Graves. The white wines, then of much less importance than red wine, were limited to the sweet varieties of Sauternes and Barsac and were ranked only from first great growth to second growth.

Not much has changed since 1855. The great vineyards and wine they produce is about the same.

Do you understand or appreciate these wines from birth? Nope. It takes education and experience.

The appreciation of fine wines and great food is made possible by education and experience and exposure.

If you have a low class upbringing eating mostly starches and boiled meats that is what you will like.

If you grew up eating cayenne peppers mashed with spoiled freshwater crabs and shredded unripe fruit topped off with BBQ rat and Jello for dessert that is what you will like.

There is a major difference between bouillabaisse and steamed whole carp with some cockles thrown in.

Are you ready to spend 60,000 baht for a decent bottle of wine and 30,000 baht for dinner?

If you can't appreciate it, it would be a waste of money.

I used to buy wines for restaurants. To learn I spent years in school and at wine tastings. I belonged to a club where 8 of us would all chip in to buy one bottle of good wine so we each could have a small glass. It is the only way to learn. Education and hands on experience with a knowledgeable teacher.

You seem to think food is somehow different than other subjects that are taught. It is not. There are standards of excellence in both food and wine that are centuries old.

Don't confuse what you like with what is really excellent. They may or may not be the same thing.

A good wine is worth 150,000 baht. A table wine 600 baht. Do you really think there are not people who are competent to set the price? People blend whiskeys. People blend teas. These are people with both the education and experience to do so.

Food and wine are both a science and an art. To really appreciate them takes education and experience and money.

You drive a car, I presume. Does that car driving experience qualify you to drive a formula one machine? Do you think formula one drivers go to school? Do you think they train with experienced drivers? Do you think the mechanics and designers are any different than cooks and chefs? Do you think poor people know the thrill of driving a Ferrari? No, of course not.

Will the influx of Russians bring about a culinary or cultural Renaissance to Pattaya? I doubt it. They will fit right in with the rest of the rather lower economic classes that are there now. Seems like a good match to me.

[Jingthing]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying (good) Russian food. I certainly do, very much. However, that doesn't make their cooking style among the best in the world and yes there are objective ways to evaluate that, that go beyond personal taste and nationalistic conditioned preferences. This kind of food discussion really belongs on one of the FOOD forums here. Please back to a more general on topic about the impact of Russians on Pattaya. Cheers.

[sojourner007]

Russian food is no better or worse than other food. It all depends on who's eating it.

Actually Russian food is very similar to German food and is not that healthy by modern standards. It normally contains a lot of fat, meat, and is calorie-rich. Russian cuisine usually involves long cooking process which further decreases food's nutritional value. In is bland in taste in comparison with cuisines from warmer climes. This is why internationally Russian food is not popular.

Back to the topic of Russification. Russians are definitely increasing their dominance on Pattaya culturally to the detriment of Western influence. Just a few years ago there were no Russian TV channels on standard free cable TV service provided to condos. Now on Jomtien Cable TV there are 4! At the same time some English language international channels, like Bloomberg, are gone. On the cable TV service there is one movie channel which in the past always showed movies in English. This year I frequently find that Hollywood movies on that channel run with Russian soundtrack.

[neil324]

I'm not trying to give Jingthing a hard time as he seems to have excellent taste in food and I much prefer Chinese food too, but it really is up to the individual.

Of course, but try opening a Russian take away in the UK. There are Chinese every where.

Because Chinese food taste's good.

[tropo]

Low class or uneducated people have low class or uneducated tastes.

I missed this gem. It's all about class and education.

People with no money are low class and have bad taste. People with money are high class and have good taste.

Now we have it figured out.

Bordeaux Wine Official Classification of 1855.

The wines were ranked in importance from first to fifth growths (crus). All of the red wines that made it on the list came from the Médoc region except for one: Château Haut-Brion from Graves. The white wines, then of much less importance than red wine, were limited to the sweet varieties of Sauternes and Barsac and were ranked only from first great growth to second growth.

Not much has changed since 1855. The great vineyards and wine they produce is about the same.

Do you understand or appreciate these wines from birth? Nope. It takes education and experience.

The appreciation of fine wines and great food is made possible by education and experience and exposure.

If you have a low class upbringing eating mostly starches and boiled meats that is what you will like.

If you grew up eating cayenne peppers mashed with spoiled freshwater crabs and shredded unripe fruit topped off with BBQ rat and Jello for dessert that is what you will like.

There is a major difference between bouillabaisse and steamed whole carp with some cockles thrown in.

Are you ready to spend 60,000 baht for a decent bottle of wine and 30,000 baht for dinner?

If you can't appreciate it, it would be a waste of money.

I used to buy wines for restaurants. To learn I spent years in school and at wine tastings. I belonged to a club where 8 of us would all chip in to buy one bottle of good wine so we each could have a small glass. It is the only way to learn. Education and hands on experience with a knowledgeable teacher.

You seem to think food is somehow different than other subjects that are taught. It is not. There are standards of excellence in both food and wine that are centuries old.

Don't confuse what you like with what is really excellent. They may or may not be the same thing.

A good wine is worth 150,000 baht. A table wine 600 baht. Do you really think there are not people who are competent to set the price? People blend whiskeys. People blend teas. These are people with both the education and experience to do so.

Food and wine are both a science and an art. To really appreciate them takes education and experience and money.

You drive a car, I presume. Does that car driving experience qualify you to drive a formula one machine? Do you think formula one drivers go to school? Do you think they train with experienced drivers? Do you think the mechanics and designers are any different than cooks and chefs? Do you think poor people know the thrill of driving a Ferrari? No, of course not.

Will the influx of Russians bring about a culinary or cultural Renaissance to Pattaya? I doubt it. They will fit right in with the rest of the rather lower economic classes that are there now. Seems like a good match to me.

I understand exactly where you are coming from. You believe good taste should arrive through education. I believe nature has taken care of good and bad taste and no education is required to decide what is good to eat.

The market for expensive food (and wine) is created through brainwashing people to believe in this fabled "elite taste" and they make their sales.

What are you doing in Pattaya? Surely most people here are far beneath you.

You're a snob who continually talks about money, class and education. You're in the wrong place.

[Jingthing]

Move discussion about food elitism to one of the dedicated food forums, please? I think it could be interesting, but it's way off topic.

[mark45y]

Move discussion about food elitism to one of the dedicated food forums, please? I think it could be interesting, but it's way off topic.

I started a thread in the Pub forum because I thought the posters in the food forum would know something about food and beverages and it would be like preaching to the choir. I would invite Tropo the advocate of dumbing down our food and beverage knowledge and taste to join the discussion there.

[nong38]

I have only been coming to Thailand for about 3 years, first time really liked it here and very few Russians. Now they have over run the place, thye are loud and rude have no consideration for others ( they are not alone there) and now Russian is everywhere. My Thai G/F likes the markets and Ko Lan but I am up for looking for somewhere new where the Russians are not so may look round the west side of the Gulf of T next time. Maybe thats why there are so many angry people in Pattaya, it sure aint the Land of Smiles anymore.

Edited March 11, 2011 by nong38

[fredob43]

Yesterday was at Swampy just left Pattaya. Standing by the passport check door, when a rusky tried to take a bag trolley through he was stopped by a uniformed Thai lady and told he couldn't take it through. He took all his and his woman's bit's off left it right across the entrance, the lady asked him to please move it, to an allotted park a few feet away. He just looked at her and put one finger up, and walked on. I moved it, on my return was thanked, followed by the word's all russian are very rude. But some spend big money. So there you go money no: one.......Capital's missed out deliberately. Thank Buddha where I live have never seen one. Those of you in Pattaya and the other place's that get them enjoy......

Edited March 11, 2011 by Rimmer
Racist flame

[mark45y]

Are the Russians going to keep coming after the season is over?

Are the Russians going to move in like the Western ex pats have done?

I have not heard of many mentioning Russian old men and young Thai women hand and hand with that goofy look in the old guys eye; are they doing that too?

[LennyW]

Are the Russians going to keep coming after the season is over?

Are the Russians going to move in like the Western ex pats have done?

I have not heard of many mentioning Russian old men and young Thai women hand and hand with that goofy look in the old guys eye; are they doing that too?

The Russians have been comming in droves for a long time now regardless of any so called seasons.

[Jebhead]

There will not be as many Russians about once the weather at home starts getting a little warmer for them but i am sure there will still be plenty about all year round from now on.

JH

[balo]

Yes maybe they will behave like normal tourists after a few years , after all its all new to them to travel....

[WISteve]

The Russians will be a part of the mix that is Pattaya in the future. Adapt to it as you will, but it is just an economic fact resulting from the changes within their own country most of all.

They seem to be most comfortable at the moment in the company of their own kind out in Jomtien so I can understand the feelings of those Western expats living out there. But I honestly do not feel threatened by their presence. They come mostly as families, they don't frequent the same bars and they for the most part aren't interested in the ladies with no visible means of support. They do spend money in the shopping centers and that employees plenty of mainstream Thai citizens.

As long as they are paying their own way and not infringing on my life it's no big deal.

[slimshedykoff]

Good day everyone

I would like to make somenotes in the tread as a Russian. I've been visiting Thailand since 1988 and I'mreally disappointed by what I'm seeing here now.

I'll agree with the majoritythat the behavior of most Russians leaves much to be desired but I'd like youto imagine what the place looked like if it was crowded with black brothersfrom South Bronx or guys from East End. I don’t think that the picture haddifferent colors so to speak. It not a national matter it is likely to be a socialone. You can’t expect good manners from a bum. Many of these people came fromsuburbs they are ill bread working class.

By the way the situation inMoscow for the last 10 year became worse than that. These people began to commuteas there are no job left in the cities around Moscow. The life in Moscow is ahell on earth imagine Pattaya’s Russian guy in every part of your social life…I found some interesting statistic in one of newspapers there are only 6% ofnative citizens left in Moscow and the major part of them are retirees everyoneelse has fled from the new comers.

[philliphn]

I have been in Thailand and Pattaya for long vacations 5 times. Most recently for 64 days.

I had thought that Pattaya would be the place for me to retire. I have many options in terms of retirement locations. My recent vacation in Pattaya has caused me to reconsider Pattaya as my retirement location. I find the Russian hordes now vacationing in Pattaya to be rude, and arrogant. They show little respect for other people. When they go around in groups they behave like bullies. They are often drunk and loud. Of course when they are drunk their behavoir is even worse.

In the past I was always sad when it was time to leave Pattaya, return to work and the USA. Though I am now retired.This time I was very glad to leave Pattaya! I continued on to Chiang Mai. In Chiang Mai though their were still many Russans. They were not however, the same drunken hordes. I think many Westerners will not like the very large Russian presence in Pattaya and seek alternative destinations. I will return to Pattaya. But I will not stay as long. I will go to other placs in Thailand. It is unlikely that I will retire in Pattaya as things are there now.

Edited March 12, 2011 by philliphn

[LeCharivari]

What are you doing in Pattaya? Surely most people here are far beneath you.

You're a snob who continually talks about money, class and education. You're in the wrong place.

No, tropo, for people who talk about "money, class and education" Pattaya is the ideal place. Its only the wrong place for people who know about such matters.

[Jingthing]

I have to agree Pattaya has become less desirable as a retirement location. That doesn't mean it still isn't an OK option for some people, or that it's degradation can be pinned solely on Russians. Like many people here, I am invested here already, but not sure I would really recommend today's Pattaya so highly to others. I don't hate it though either.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Jingthing

[jombom]

1) Did you notice the Russkies are smiling, more than they used to. Many of them have dropped that dour and scowly look.

2) Did you notice, that some of them actually try and talk to you.

3) Did you notice, that very few of them (considering the numbers) actually get in trouble. Wow, they actually behave themselves.

4) Ok, except for frolics on the beaches, but do you want to frolic in the Volga ?? Not me, No thanks.

Actually, the original premise of the thread is slightly flawed. What is actually happening, is the Thaification of the Russians, as with countless others before.

Why are we all here ??

[Jingthing]

I doubt there is so much "Thai-ification" happening on two week stints here ...

[Tolley]

This whole thread about the Russians is ridiculous.

Should we start a thread about the Chinese and Koreans who block the beach when they come back from their boat tours in the bay.

What about a thread about the tatooed lager louts from the UK.(not so many around at the moment due to economic woes in UK)

A thread about Ladyboy infestation on Walking St.....etc etc etc

I find the Russians more a curiosity than anything else. A new ingredient in the mix if you will.

I don't see why anyone feels threatened by them and I accept that they behave a little differently as well.

I doubt if there are Russian forums on Pattaya that are discussing the way westerners are ruining Pattaya and how they find it sad that middle aged westerners are wandering along the street with hookers as young as their grand daughters.

Funny too I don't hear many of my Thai friends really complaining about the Russians either. They just accept them as part of the tourist mix.

Pattaya is after all a tourist town and the Russians are just the latest tourist influx to Pattaya.

[bartender100]

Low class or uneducated people have low class or uneducated tastes.

I missed this gem. It's all about class and education.

People with no money are low class and have bad taste. People with money are high class and have good taste.

Now we have it figured out.

Bordeaux Wine Official Classification of 1855.

The wines were ranked in importance from first to fifth growths (crus). All of the red wines that made it on the list came from the Médoc region except for one: Château Haut-Brion from Graves. The white wines, then of much less importance than red wine, were limited to the sweet varieties of Sauternes and Barsac and were ranked only from first great growth to second growth.

Not much has changed since 1855. The great vineyards and wine they produce is about the same.

Do you understand or appreciate these wines from birth? Nope. It takes education and experience.

The appreciation of fine wines and great food is made possible by education and experience and exposure.

If you have a low class upbringing eating mostly starches and boiled meats that is what you will like.

If you grew up eating cayenne peppers mashed with spoiled freshwater crabs and shredded unripe fruit topped off with BBQ rat and Jello for dessert that is what you will like.

There is a major difference between bouillabaisse and steamed whole carp with some cockles thrown in.

Are you ready to spend 60,000 baht for a decent bottle of wine and 30,000 baht for dinner?

If you can't appreciate it, it would be a waste of money.

I used to buy wines for restaurants. To learn I spent years in school and at wine tastings. I belonged to a club where 8 of us would all chip in to buy one bottle of good wine so we each could have a small glass. It is the only way to learn. Education and hands on experience with a knowledgeable teacher.

You seem to think food is somehow different than other subjects that are taught. It is not. There are standards of excellence in both food and wine that are centuries old.

Don't confuse what you like with what is really excellent. They may or may not be the same thing.

A good wine is worth 150,000 baht. A table wine 600 baht. Do you really think there are not people who are competent to set the price? People blend whiskeys. People blend teas. These are people with both the education and experience to do so.

Food and wine are both a science and an art. To really appreciate them takes education and experience and money.

You drive a car, I presume. Does that car driving experience qualify you to drive a formula one machine? Do you think formula one drivers go to school? Do you think they train with experienced drivers? Do you think the mechanics and designers are any different than cooks and chefs? Do you think poor people know the thrill of driving a Ferrari? No, of course not.

Will the influx of Russians bring about a culinary or cultural Renaissance to Pattaya? I doubt it. They will fit right in with the rest of the rather lower economic classes that are there now. Seems like a good match to me.

A more arrogant, self centered post than this would be hard to find on Thaivisa, sorry this post is the most snobbish rubbish i have read for a long time