What Do You Feel Are The Differences Between Farangs And Thais?

[mstribling]

I had forgotten about Godwins law.

[Deeral]

Whereas you conclusion might be inline with some great thinkers your premises certainly aren't.

This sadly means that your comments are no better than someone reading tealeaves, and any coincidental similarity between your postulation and constructive thought is also that - coincidental

[Deeral]

I do not know whether different ethnic groups have different IQs that are partially genetically determined. However I can't think of a good scientific reason why this may not be so. After all we all accept that different ethnic groups have different statures, and that this is determined at least in part, genetically. However much you fed a population of pygmies their average stature would not increase to that of a semi-starved group of Norwegians. In principle if there was a genetic variant of a gene that (this is a purely made up example) caused neurons in the brain to make on average 5% fewer connections, and this variant arose say in Iceland, 50,000 years ago, wouldn't it be possible for Icelanders to be less intelligent than , say Thais because more of them have this variant?

If you believe in evolution then it stands to reason that different races have evolved different intelligences because of their particular environment.

If you believe in God then you are more likely to assume all races are created equal.

Creationists are the good guys, Evolutionists are natural racists ......... ha ha!

Absolutel rubbish - I don't think you have any idea about evolutionary theory.For a start you are still talking about "race" as if it is an evolutionary facet or a biological difference - which it patently is not.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Deeral

[mstribling]

I was waiting for her to start attacking. She opened this thread but commented little.

Now we get to have her point out how wrong we are about everything.

It was too easy.

[partington]

I do not know whether different ethnic groups have different IQs that are partially genetically determined. However I can't think of a good scientific reason why this may not be so. After all we all accept that different ethnic groups have different statures, and that this is determined at least in part, genetically. However much you fed a population of pygmies their average stature would not increase to that of a semi-starved group of Norwegians. In principle if there was a genetic variant of a gene that (this is a purely made up example) caused neurons in the brain to make on average 5% fewer connections, and this variant arose say in Iceland, 50,000 years ago, wouldn't it be possible for Icelanders to be less intelligent than , say Thais because more of them have this variant?

If you believe in evolution then it stands to reason that different races have evolved different intelligences because of their particular environment.

If you believe in God then you are more likely to assume all races are created equal.

Creationists are the good guys, Evolutionists are natural racists ......... ha ha!

Absolutel rubbish - I don't think you have any idea about evolutionary theory.For a start you are still talking about "race" as if it is an evolutionary facet or a biological difference - which it patently is not.

Actually Deeral I don't understand this claim of yours at all.

I don't quite know if you mean racial differences don't exist, or if they do exist they do not result from evolutionary change, or the differences that exist are not biological. Though since biology means the study of properties exhibited by living creatures, then "biological" only means a property exhibited by a living creature, which, for example, eyelid structure is- so of course you can't mean that.

Can you clarify?

[Semper]

Deeral - Do you have some problem with the space bar on your keyboard? Or,are you just typing too quickly.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Semper

[mstribling]

Deeral - Do you have some problem with the space bar on your keyboard? Or,are you just typing too quickly.

Fuel on the fire. She's gonna be pissed when she gets back from class.

[WebBangkok]

I don,t know, I see plenty of Thais I have met through business in Bangkok who are much brighter than some of the farangs I meet in bars telling me how stupid Thai's are. It all depends really who you hang out with I guess.

Usually the not so bright farangs who think they are will be the loudest saying how smart they are and saying how all Thai's are dumb to try and make themselves feel better about themselves, bright people are bright enough not to say silly things like that because their is no need to give yourself back slaps if unless you are insecure.

[Ulysses G.]

I don,t know, I see plenty of Thais I have met through business in Bangkok who are much brighter than some of the farangs I meet in bars telling me how stupid Thai's are. It all depends really who you hang out with I guess.

Usually the not so bright farangs who think they are will be the loudest saying how smart they are and saying how all Thai's are dumb to try and make themselves feel better about themselves, bright people are bright enough not to say silly things like that because their is no need to give yourself back slaps if unless you are insecure.

Would that also include certain Internet forums?

[WebBangkok]

Also a couple of typo's in my post above

[Deeral]

I do not know whether different ethnic groups have different IQs that are partially genetically determined. However I can't think of a good scientific reason why this may not be so. After all we all accept that different ethnic groups have different statures, and that this is determined at least in part, genetically. However much you fed a population of pygmies their average stature would not increase to that of a semi-starved group of Norwegians. In principle if there was a genetic variant of a gene that (this is a purely made up example) caused neurons in the brain to make on average 5% fewer connections, and this variant arose say in Iceland, 50,000 years ago, wouldn't it be possible for Icelanders to be less intelligent than , say Thais because more of them have this variant?

If you believe in evolution then it stands to reason that different races have evolved different intelligences because of their particular environment.

If you believe in God then you are more likely to assume all races are created equal.

Creationists are the good guys, Evolutionists are natural racists ......... ha ha!

Absolutel rubbish - I don't think you have any idea about evolutionary theory.For a start you are still talking about "race" as if it is an evolutionary facet or a biological difference - which it patently is not.

Actually Deeral I don't understand this claim of yours at all.

I don't quite know if you mean racial differences don't exist, or if they do exist they do not result from evolutionary change, or the differences that exist are not biological. Though since biology means the study of properties exhibited by living creatures, then "biological" only means a property exhibited by a living creature, which, for example, eyelid structure is- so of course you can't mean that.

Can you clarify?

You just keep on thinking that...I'm getting all I need from this thread.

if you want to get a more critical view why not try

"Coop G, Pickrell JK, Novembre J, Kudaravalli S, Li J, et al.The Role of Geography in Human Adaptation. PLoS Genetics, 2009; 5 (6): e1000500 DOI:10.1371/journal.pgen.1000500

Edited March 30, 2011 by Deeral

[WebBangkok]

Nothing to do with race.

Its opportunity and how individuals are raised and many other natural factors.

Just like a black guy adopted by a white family, goes to harvard etc will know more than a guy in Africa hunting food in the bush when it comes to general knowledge. It is not that hard to understand.

[SICHONSTEVE]

...the discipline and respect given to all of the teachers (and their parents incidentally) is in another league. I'm convinced its to do with their buddhist upbringing!!! What we say is gospel and they do not question it, full stop.

Not quite. More to do with Confucianism and other cultural factors than (the Thai version of) Buddhism, per se. Besides shows of respect are often just that - a show, ie a matter of form.

What you say is "gospel"? To the extent that that is true (and you won't know because again, the deference they show is first and foremost about show -- even when they do believe virtually everything you say as some may do); but that's also simply because they are typically taught all their lives to not not to question authority or think for themselves (which is NOT particularly Buddhist -- arguably rather the contrary); you think that's a good thing?

I

know for a fact that Thai (lets call them teenagers) do not engage in those things you've stipulated ie: sex, drugs and R&R, this is not to say that this won't change/come later in life.ALL Thai men LIKE to drink cheap whiskey and smoke cheap cigarettes and quite a number have a penchant for the ladies (their wives AND girlfriends), that I do know!!

You know no such thing "for a fact" -- because it isn't one. And :ALL Thai men LIKE to drink cheap whiskey and smoke cheap cigarettes?"

Are you for real?!

Now where do I start?? At the beginning of course!!

1). "I know for a fact" means: and I quote - to possess knowledge, understanding, or information through experience as well as to regard something as being true beyond all practical doubt" and I DO have all of these in abundance as there has NEVER been ANY incident involving a child showing any form of indiscipline to a teacher in 2 years in our school (there are 300+ dek dek's and an awful lot of schooldays in 2 years so you do the math) and, so it is perfectly correct and appropriate to use this statement as I have done.

2). When I say "ALL Thai men LIKE to drink cheap whiskey and smoke cheap cigarettes" then it is pretty darned obvious that ALL doesn't mean ALL, as in every single Thai man in Thailand as it would be rediculous to assume this being the case!! It is an expressional INFERENCE implying that a large number (comparative to other nations) are fond of ciggy's and a good swig of the old "Mekhong" and nothing more than this. I could quote numerous examples with similarities but I think one will be sufficient, lets make it two related one's. How many people actually die when they are given a cigarette when they utter the words " I would die for a ciggy"???? or kill somebody when they say"I'd kill for a cigarette" not too many!!! - get the point???

3). When I put "what I say is gospel" this simply means it is the "unquestionable truth" and as they NEVER ever question the reason for my saying it, then that to me, makes it the "gospel truth" - there is no question about that, either.

4). To show respect is not a form of show. When you show off do you show them your off?? Do you show someone your watch at show time??? To show someone respect is

"the state of being regarded with honor or esteem with deference" and that is what they kids show me and the other teachers in our school. They are taught to respect their elders and people who are higher in the social order (this applies in all walks of life) - even the king has to wai a monk and the monk needn;t wai him back as technically the monk is higher in the social order (according to my wife)!! It is not a show!! it is a genuine acknowledgement of respect as "I know this for a fact" - please refer to no. 1). for an explanation

Buddhism, according to an expert/authority - namely Justin Choo say's that his understanding of the teachings of buddhism is to show respect to all forms of life - which rather suggests to me that 'to respect' IS taught in their religion.

To answer your question - Yes!!! I do think that that is a good thing for them not to question authority!!!!! If they adopted this in my home country (and America) then the rebelious attitudes that the unruly brats have and are not frightened to display wouldn't pervade the classroom with such destructive consequences. Can you imagine that - perfectly behaved students attentive in all their lessons, actually listening to what he teacher is saying.in complete silence - perhaps this is a step/hope, too far!!!

5). You should be more careful and not leave yourself open when you get on your high horse (and no this doesn't mean that I think you own a Shire horse)!!

Your parting shot delivers a rather dumb question, if I may say so. It's OK I just gave myself permission to....., and I quote:

"Are you for real?!

Of course I'm for real, as if I wasn't then I wouldn't be able to reply to you!!! Would I, and I just have, haven't I !!!!!!!!! Well YOU started this rather stupid episode!!!

[Semper]

I can't belive this topic is not closed.

[SICHONSTEVE]

I can't belive this topic is not closed.

Its because people such as YOU keep the contributions coming!!!

[SteeleJoe]

It;s late but I guessI'll quickly knock this out before I go to bed...

...thediscipline and respect given to all of the teachers (and their parentsincidentally) is in another league. I'm convinced its to do with their buddhistupbringing!!! What we say is gospel and they do not question it, fullstop.

Notquite. More to do with Confucianism and other cultural factors than (the Thaiversion of) Buddhism, per se. Besides shows of respect are often just that- a show, ie a matter of form. Whatyou say is "gospel"? To the extent that that is true (and youwon't know because again, the deference they show is first and foremost about show-- even when they do believe virtually everything yousay as some may do); but that's also simply because they aretypically taught all their lives to not not to question authorityor think for themselves (which is NOT particularly Buddhist -- arguably ratherthe contrary); you think that's a good thing? I

know for a fact that Thai (lets call them teenagers) do not engage in thosethings you've stipulated ie: sex, drugs and R&R, this is not to say thatthis won't change/come later in life.ALL Thai men LIKE to drink cheap whiskeyand smoke cheap cigarettes and quite a number have a penchant for the ladies(their wives AND girlfriends), that I do know!!

Youknow no such thing "for a fact" -- because it isn't one. And :ALLThai men LIKE to drink cheap whiskey and smoke cheap cigarettes?" Areyou for real?!

Now where do I start??At the beginning of course!! 1). "I know for afact" means: and I quote - to possess knowledge, understanding,or information through experience as well as to regard something as being truebeyond all practical doubt" and I DO have all of these in abundance asthere has NEVER been ANY incident involving a child showing any form ofindiscipline to a teacher in 2 years in our school (there are 300+ dek dek'sand an awful lot of schooldays in 2 years so you do the math) and, so it isperfectly correct and appropriate to use this statement as I havedone. 2). When I say "ALLThai men LIKE to drink cheap whiskey and smoke cheap cigarettes" then itis pretty darned obvious that ALL doesn't mean ALL, as in every single Thai manin Thailand as it would be rediculous to assume this being the case!! It is anexpressional INFERENCE implying that a large number (comparative to othernations) are fond of ciggy's and a good swig of the old "Mekhong" andnothing more than this. I could quote numerous examples with similarities but Ithink one will be sufficient, lets make it two related one's. How many peopleactually die when they are given a cigarette when they utter the words " Iwould die for a ciggy"???? or kill somebody when they say"I'd killfor a cigarette" not too many!!! - get the point??? 3). When I put"what I say is gospel" this simply means it is the"unquestionable truth" and as they NEVER ever question the reason formy saying it, then that to me, makes it the "gospel truth" - there isno question about that, either. 4). To show respect isnot a form of show. When you show off do you show them your off?? Do you showsomeone your watch at show time??? To show someone respect is "the state of beingregarded with honor or esteem with deference" and that is what they kidsshow me and the other teachers in our school. They are taught to respect theirelders and people who are higher in the social order (this applies in all walksof life) - even the king has to wai a monk and the monk needn;t wai him back astechnically the monk is higher in the social order (according to my wife)!! Itis not a show!! it is a genuine acknowledgement of respect as "I know thisfor a fact" - please refer to no. 1). for an explanation Buddhism, according toan expert/authority - namely Justin Choo say's that his understanding of theteachings of buddhism is to show respect to all forms of life - which rathersuggests to me that 'to respect' IS taught in their religion. To answer your question- Yes!!! I do think that that is a good thing for them not to questionauthority!!!!! If they adopted this in my home country (and America) then therebelious attitudes that the unruly brats have and are not frightened todisplay wouldn't pervade the classroom with such destructive consequences. Canyou imagine that - perfectly behaved students attentive in all theirlessons, actually listening to what he teacher is saying.in complete silence -perhaps this is a step/hope, too far!!! 5). You should be morecareful and not leave yourself open when you get on your high horse (and nothis doesn't mean that I think you own a Shire horse)!! Your parting shotdelivers a rather dumb question, if I may say so. It's OK I just gave myselfpermission to....., and I quote: "Are you for real?! Of course I'm for real,as if I wasn't then I wouldn't be able to reply to you!!! Would I, and I justhave, haven't I !!!!!!!!! Well YOU started this rather stupid episode!!!

1) You seem to havemisunderstood your own post. What you claimed to know for fact was not anythingabout "Indiscipline", it was that "Thai (lets call themteenagers) do not engage in those things you've stipulated ie: sex, drugs andR&R" --and that is simply not something that you possess knowledge, understanding, or informationthrough experience as well as to regard something as being true beyond allpractical doubt because it'scompletely false.

Now as to your claimthat in 2 years there has never been a single case of indiscipline at yourkindergarten: that's quite remarkable, even (or especially?) for toddlers.Unfortunately even if it's true, it proves nothing (other than maybe you reallyknow how to run a KG).

Now let's compare thatrecord of your to the thousands and thousands of cases of"indiscipline" in schools throughout the country...

2) ExpressionalINFERENCE (sic)? Instead of making up phrases, why not just admit it was anabsurdly broad generalization and get over it.

3. "When I put "what I say isgospel" this simply means it is the "unquestionable truth" andas they NEVER ever question the reason for my saying it, then that to me, makesit the "gospel truth" - there is no question about that,either."

That makes no sense. Atbest it's circular logic if not just double talk and gibberish.

4.) You say: "To showrespect is not a form of show." but I never said it was a "form"of show. It is – by definition – a show. That has nothing to dowith whether it's sincere or not or even to what degree the sentiment may ormay not be genuinely felt.

You ask: When you show off do you show them your off?? Doyou show someone your watch at show time??? But these example ofphrasal verbs have nothing to do with the meaning of "show" and theycertaily don't support anything you've said or refute anything I've said.

You say: 'To show someone respect is "thestate of being regarded with honor or esteem with deference"' Butwhat you've done there (quite dishonestly) is copy the definition for "respect" –NOT the definition of a show of it.

This?

Allow me to qoute from your source: "show or have respectfor" -- notice how they distinguish between showing and having(ie while they may both be there the latter is not dependent on the former).

5.) Yes, they are taught to respect their elders and people whoare higher in the social order (this applies in all walks of life). Yes, thatis true and it often is something they adhere to o one degree or another.

Your comments about HM the King have no relevance whatsoever.

But you say 'it is a genuine acknowledgement of respect as "Iknow this for a fact"' and while I don't doubt it, there's no way you knowfor a fact what HM the King feels when he wais a monk -- or what astudent feels when they show respect.

And with all due respect, I think for you and I have to have aproductive exchange about Buddhism, you'd have to learn a bit more. I'm noexpert (like Justin Choo?) but I've done a certain amount of study of it aswell as other aspects of Thai culture and I stand by my posit -- you areoversimplifying what Buddhism's about. (By the way, I think if you wee toconsult your man Justin, he'd tell you that the Buddha did not tell peopleto abandon critical thought in favor of unconditional respectbased on age or position).

And your notion that never questioning authority and not thinkingfor yourself are traits in Thai youth that are beneficial to Thai, you mightwant to take a good look at what has resulted from that in this country (andperhaps read the many Thai academics, social scientists, political analysts etall who bemoan this aspect of Thai social norms). You might also want topconsider that the US wouldn't even exist with that sort of thinking and norwould it have succeeded to the extent it has. The same goes -- to greater orlesser degree -- for many another developed country.

There's a lot of beautiful and admirable things about traditionalThai culture -- even sometimes the parts that you are so enamored of -- but tobe oblivious to the downside not questioning authority and not thinking foryourself and to assume that that's what's needed in the US and the UK?

Are you really for real?

Oh, and this:

Can you imagine that - perfectly behaved students attentive inall their lessons, actually listening to what he teacher issaying.in complete silence

Coincidentally, I just spoke with a recent graduate ofThammasat law this very evening about a subject I've been studying anddiscussing for around 15 years and he was in complete agreement with me -- as are so manyThai social scientists and educators and the Royal Thai government -- there'sfar too much sitting in complete silence in Thai classrooms and no questioning,interacting or engaging critical/analytical thinking. edit for typos and to add: I commend you for your Kindergarten experience but do you think that just maybe others might have a bit of experience and training in educational matters here in Thailand? Maybe even someone one who read your comment?

Edited March 30, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

By the way, not sure which "stupid episode" I started -- I was merely replying to what I saw (and still see) as an untenable argument but I apologize if I did so in an offensive way.

[SteeleJoe]

Forgot to include this!

"Do not accept anything because it is the authoritative tradition, because it is often said, because of rumour or hearsay, because it is found in the scriptures, because it agrees with a theory of which one is already convinced, because of the reputation of an individual, or because a teacher said it is thus and thus. . . ."

-- Buddha in Kamala Sutta

And since I'm having my usual trouble getting to sleep, I'll add this bit: When the Thai government began – about 15 years ago? – to promote educational reform, one of the things they finally had woken up to was the need for "fundamental change in pedagogy away from teacher-centered learning emphasizing rote memorization to student-centered learning fostering independent thinking and creativity." And in their campaign for this reform they used " the visual metaphor of children with heads of parrots" as a "critique of conventional learning approaches and patterns." Unfortunately, very little, if any, progress has actually been made in such reform. (And the results are obvious and exhibited in everything from research and development to social ills to politics.)

And I'll throw in (free of charge) one anecdote about shows of respect: in 1997 I recall being at a certain 5 star hotel on the river where a party was being held for retired RTA general. This was not just any general but one who had run the government and the military when they shot down a still yet undetermined number of non-violent pro-democracy demonstrators. I stood there with my Thai associates, subordinates and friends and we discussed what an awful man he was and what a disgrace it was that he was being feted there. Then I watched, with little surprise but some dismay and even a tinge of disgust as those Thais joined a queue of people to make a show of respect to the general. When they rejoined me they made some very ugly comments (in Thai) about the man.

That sort of thing is perfectly normal here. Ergo, someone adhering to social customs that include rituals designed to demonstrate an attitude of respect may or may not actually feel that respect. (Not every student in a class of 40 who stands up and wais ther teacher respects that teacher. No more than every solider who salutes an officer respects him).

And if you don't recognize the importance of form here and aren't aware of how often concealing your true feelings is paramount here and the only socially acceptable thing to do (as well as being what is so deeply ingrained as to be automatic and untroubled)...well I respectfully suggest you have rather a lot to learn.

edit for typos and vain attempts to get more normal format

Edited March 30, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[gregb]

It is almost to be expected that you will see the usual "Thais are all lazy", "Thais are all drunkards" replies after 12 pages. Sadly, I would say that rates of alcoholism and laziness are not substantially higher in Thailand that anywhere else. While it may be more visible here, this is really a red herring.

The OP asked what Farangs do better than Thais. There is really only one thing I've found in the decade+ that I've been here that most Westerners are significantly better at than most Thais. That is treating people as equals. Almost all of the failings of Thai culture can be traced back to this root cause. The "I'm richer than you therefore I'm better than you" attitude so prevalent among Thai people leads to most of the issues, and that probably includes the tendency towards drunkenness and laziness. The poor, experiencing this attitude day in and day out, eventually get beaten down to the point they believe it. This happens in the West too to some degree, but not nearly as much.

Farangs seem to be much more capable of looking at a group of people and seeing the same fundamental worth in a poor person as in a wealthy one. This is the only true failure of the Thai culture that I see, and the only true quality of the West that really needs to be better represented over here. The issues with responsibility that lead to corruption and laziness generally come back to this fundamental problem.

If there is one thing those of us from the West can bring to this great nation, it is a better appreciation for the rights, responsibilities and fundamental equalities all of all people, no matter their lot in life. There is a way to successfully merge that quality into the Thai psyche without destroying the fundamental nature of the country, but it is a very slow process, and likely none of us will ever see the results of our efforts.

[partington]

Absolutel rubbish - I don't think you have any idea about evolutionary theory.For a start you are still talking about "race" as if it is an evolutionary facet or a biological difference - which it patently is not.

Actually Deeral I don't understand this claim of yours at all.

I don't quite know if you mean racial differences don't exist, or if they do exist they do not result from evolutionary change, or the differences that exist are not biological. Though since biology means the study of properties exhibited by living creatures, then "biological" only means a property exhibited by a living creature, which, for example, eyelid structure is- so of course you can't mean that.

Can you clarify?

You just keep on thinking that...I'm getting all I need from this thread.

if you want to get a more critical view why not try

"Coop G, Pickrell JK, Novembre J, Kudaravalli S, Li J, et al.The Role of Geography in Human Adaptation. PLoS Genetics, 2009; 5 (6): e1000500 DOI:10.1371/journal.pgen.1000500

Blimey. Thanks for this reference. I'd have to read it between 100 and 200 more times to actually understand it properly, and haven't read a population genetics paper for about 20 years.

However the rusty old brain is getting the gist-seem to be saying that strong selection pressure at a single locus causing adaptive evolutionary change is quite rare in humans, so that it would not have happened as much in the last 70,000 years as was previously thought. Furthermore if humans are capable of rapid adaptive change over the course of 10000 years or so they think it's more likely to have happened as a result of simultaneous changes at a number of genetic loci that would therefore be less easy to detect by the polymorphism analysis that they use in the study.

Well, what do I know, this might well be true- I'll have to do a bit more reading obviously ....

But I have to say, in my opinion at least, this paper doesn't give evidence for, or even try to suggest that race is not an evolutionary facet, or a biological difference (although I wasn't quite clear what you meant by this, which is honestly why I asked.)

A lot of the study is based on the analysis of SNPs in what they call ethnic groups ( I don't mind calling them that rather than races), e.g. Yaruba Nigerians, French, and Han Chinese, but the thing is: they had to predefine the groups as ethnically different before they could do the study, so they must believe that the subjects they chose were both correctly classifiable into these different groups and that this difference is biologically meaningful and stable over the course of the study.

And to me they didn't seem to be saying that they thought none of the genetic differences they were studying were the result of evolutionary adaptation to selective pressure-I mean their first figure was showing how the SNPs with the greatest frequency differences between compared ethnic groups were concentrated in areas that were in genes (and not the vastly greater non-genic space) suggesting that this results from selection. And the discussions continually referred to possible hypotheses about how selection pressure, genetic drift and population movement could have led to the observed genetic differences so I didn't get from this any scepticism about the role of selection in producing genetic differences between ethnic groups, just that selection pressure may be responsible for less of it than was previously thought.

But this is not the place for what is to others a pretty dull discussion-I should really just go and read more about it instead of cluttering up the thread--I do this sort of thing when I'm at a loose end ..

Thanks for the pointer to some interesting future reading though.

[phillyherb]

Is your space bar still not working.

I think his space bar and his spellchecker are not working.

There seems to be alot of mumble-jumble in his message.

[Berkshire]

The OP asked what Farangs do better than Thais. There is really only one thing I've found in the decade+ that I've been here that most Westerners are significantly better at than most Thais. That is treating people as equals. Almost all of the failings of Thai culture can be traced back to this root cause. The "I'm richer than you therefore I'm better than you" attitude so prevalent among Thai people leads to most of the issues, and that probably includes the tendency towards drunkenness and laziness. The poor, experiencing this attitude day in and day out, eventually get beaten down to the point they believe it. This happens in the West too to some degree, but not nearly as much.

Farangs seem to be much more capable of looking at a group of people and seeing the same fundamental worth in a poor person as in a wealthy one. This is the only true failure of the Thai culture that I see, and the only true quality of the West that really needs to be better represented over here. The issues with responsibility that lead to corruption and laziness generally come back to this fundamental problem.

That's an interesting observation, Greg. However, it's not a new idea and certainly not confined to Thailand. Are you familiar with Geert Hofstede and his Cultural Dimensions? There are various countries throughout the world that has inequality built-in. Not only is it accepted by those at the highest levels, it's also embraced by those at the lowest. It's the concept of "power distance."

Power Distance: that is the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power is distributed unequally. This represents inequality (more versus less), but defined from below, not from above. It suggests that a society's level of inequality is endorsed by the followers as much as by the leaders. Power and inequality, of course, are extremely fundamental facts of any society and anybody with some international experience will be aware that 'all societies are unequal, but some are more unequal than others'.

This is a powerful cultural force that is not going to change any time soon.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Forgot to include this!

"Do not accept anything because it is the authoritative tradition, because it is often said, because of rumour or hearsay, because it is found in the scriptures, because it agrees with a theory of which one is already convinced, because of the reputation of an individual, or because a teacher said it is thus and thus. . . ."

-- Buddha in Kamala Sutta

And since I'm having my usual trouble getting to sleep, I'll add this bit: When the Thai government began – about 15 years ago? – to promote educational reform, one of the things they finally had woken up to was the need for "fundamental change in pedagogy away from teacher-centered learning emphasizing rote memorization to student-centered learning fostering independent thinking and creativity." And in their campaign for this reform they used " the visual metaphor of children with heads of parrots" as a "critique of conventional learning approaches and patterns." Unfortunately, very little, if any, progress has actually been made in such reform. (And the results are obvious and exhibited in everything from research and development to social ills to politics.)

And I'll throw in (free of charge) one anecdote about shows of respect: in 1997 I recall being at a certain 5 star hotel on the river where a party was being held for retired RTA general. This was not just any general but one who had run the government and the military when they shot down a still yet undetermined number of non-violent pro-democracy demonstrators. I stood there with my Thai associates, subordinates and friends and we discussed what an awful man he was and what a disgrace it was that he was being feted there. Then I watched, with little surprise but some dismay and even a tinge of disgust as those Thais joined a queue of people to make a show of respect to the general. When they rejoined me they made some very ugly comments (in Thai) about the man.

That sort of thing is perfectly normal here. Ergo, someone adhering to social customs that include rituals designed to demonstrate an attitude of respect may or may not actually feel that respect. (Not every student in a class of 40 who stands up and wais ther teacher respects that teacher. No more than every solider who salutes an officer respects him).

And if you don't recognize the importance of form here and aren't aware of how often concealing your true feelings is paramount here and the only socially acceptable thing to do (as well as being what is so deeply ingrained as to be automatic and untroubled)...well I respectfully suggest you have rather a lot to learn.

edit for typos and vain attempts to get more normal format

I apologise for keeping you awake Steelrjoe and cannot fail but to admire you for your stamina and thoroughness in that mammoth reply of yours. However, I think that we will have to agree to disagree on a number of points that we have both commented on as we view them in different ways clearly ie: we seem to see things from differing perspectives and maybe cannot get our heads around the others point of view in what they are trying to express NB: maybe we can start a new subject - "What do you feel are the differences between Brits and Americans"?? it would be interesting, but maybe not appropriate for this forum though.

I should make it clear that the discipline observed in our school is probably only representative of kindergarten children and I could well imagine that as they get older this discipline deteriorates as they start to form their own opinions on things and want to express their thoughts and question authority in a robust way. I was simply referring to nursery and kindergarten aged children (2 - 6 YO's) where this is too early in the 'long road' that is their education to do this. In other words we are talking about the same aspect but at different levels (WRT age groups) and the same things do not apply equaly, hence I am correct about the behavioural aspects of young children (impeccable) and what you write about the older children up to university level also rings true (potentially more disruptive as they start to formulate their own thoughts which may or may not tally with those of their teachers)..

I am all in favour of the government's '15 year educational reform program' as the existing one is clearly incapable of providing them with a rounded education with some of their teaching methods distinctly 'third world' in nature such as the 'rote teaching' you mention in your post. On this though. it cannot be totally dismissed as I have learnt to read Thai now and have started to learn how to speak the language. There is no getting away from using the rote system here with a good sprinkling of mnemonics thrown in in my attempt to master my second language (both incorporated in the rote system). What they need to do is introduce OTHER methods and techniques and broaden massively the content and subject matter in the teaching, as unless it is 'something Thai' then they will almost certainly remain oblivious to whats happened in the past (history) and is happening throughout the world at present. Their lack of knowledge is quite astounding as I'm sure if you asked Thai children who Hitler or Elvis Presley were, then the percentage who have never heard of one or both of them might surprise you!!! It is imperative that they broaden their horizons and it looks at least that they have begun to do this at last. The internet will benefit this work immensely as they will have the chance to find out for themselves about the both the past and also that there are other things happening outside of Thailand.

When I discuss how many Thai men seem to smoke and drink whiskey this is a casual observation on my part as so many of the male staff in our school (every single one in fact) smoke and drink cheap Thai whiskey. All 5 drivers, the cook's husband, our caretaker Chai do both (smoke and drink). The exception to the rule is the only male teacher in the school, our swimming instructor/computer teacher, Jug. The other dozen or so teachers are all ladies and none smoke with only a few partaking in the very occasional drink, usually in private. On more social occasions such as going to a bar or nightclub the men and women (fairly young in age compared to ancient old me) bring their bottles of 100 Pipers or Red Label whiskey in and simply buy mixers and get drunk. There is a steady flow of men venturing outside to smoke as well so my observation relating to the habits of Thai men is founded through experience.

There is too much information in your post to comment on but I hope that my limited appraisal at least covers some of the aspects that we have discussed in our own personal deliberations on matters.

I bet you slept well when you retired to bed - perpetuating thoughts as to how I would respond to your retort no doubt!!

[Deeral]

Is your space bar still not working.

I think his space bar and his spellchecker are not working.

There seems to be alot of mumble-jumble in his message.

what a moron you must be - you've been told before but you can't even get that right - I'd love just for a minute - no more - to experience the dim and murky nebulous world that is your feeble mind - just so I can get an idea of how really thick you are!

Edited April 1, 2011 by Deeral

[StreetCowboy]

Is your space bar still not working.

I think his space bar and his spellchecker are not working.

There seems to be alot of mumble-jumble in his message.

what a moron you must be - you've been told before but you can't even get that right - I'd love just for a minute - no more - to experience the dim and murky nebulous world that is your feeble mind - just so I can get an idea of how really thick you are!

I can strongly commend the pearls of strong drink to you.

You could combine poverty, debilitating ill-health, baffling confusion and ridiculous idocy, without compromising on a pleasant and tolerant demeanour

SC

[zzaa09]

I don,t know, I see plenty of Thais I have met through business in Bangkok who are much brighter than some of the farangs I meet in bars telling me how stupid Thai's are. It all depends really who you hang out with I guess.

Usually the not so bright farangs who think they are will be the loudest saying how smart they are and saying how all Thai's are dumb to try and make themselves feel better about themselves, bright people are bright enough not to say silly things like that because their is no need to give yourself back slaps if unless you are insecure.

Would that also include certain Internet forums?

Yes, particular internet forums.

[Shotime]

I think if more people had a mai pen rai attitude towards life, there'd be a lot less neurotic people running around. They wouldn't be building nuclear power plants where earthquakes are almost an everyday occurence. Community and family would be much more important. Of course in the larger cities, there's not much difference., but the stock manipulations and banking malpractices wouldn't have such a world-wide disasterous effect. Poorer countries may be less educated than richer countries, but that's not necessaily "falling short." I fail to see where the more educated nations have done anything to make the world a better place. The greed and sociopathetic behavior are more pronounced in those countries that feel Thailand is a third world country. It's a shame that the internet has exposed certain countries to things that they "think" they want. What exactly are they falling short of?

You can't be serious??? I will just through a few world changing vaccines out there... Polio, Measles, Small Pox.... If the entire world subscribed to the, "lets lay around all day and get drunk" "mai pen rai" attitude you think the world would really be better off?

Don't forget the atomic bomb. Look at how many lives that saved.

[mstribling]

I think if more people had a mai pen rai attitude towards life, there'd be a lot less neurotic people running around. They wouldn't be building nuclear power plants where earthquakes are almost an everyday occurence. Community and family would be much more important. Of course in the larger cities, there's not much difference., but the stock manipulations and banking malpractices wouldn't have such a world-wide disasterous effect. Poorer countries may be less educated than richer countries, but that's not necessaily "falling short." I fail to see where the more educated nations have done anything to make the world a better place. The greed and sociopathetic behavior are more pronounced in those countries that feel Thailand is a third world country. It's a shame that the internet has exposed certain countries to things that they "think" they want. What exactly are they falling short of?

You can't be serious??? I will just through a few world changing vaccines out there... Polio, Measles, Small Pox.... If the entire world subscribed to the, "lets lay around all day and get drunk" "mai pen rai" attitude you think the world would really be better off?

Don't forget the atomic bomb. Look at how many lives that saved.

It saved millions of live, millions.

[Shotime]

That's what I said, but millions of whose lives? It surely wasn;t Japanese. Plus, I'm not real sure it was millions. I was exaggerating a little. In any case, it wasn't a step forward for humanity,

[zzaa09]

That's what I said, but millions of whose lives? It surely wasn;t Japanese. Plus, I'm not real sure it was millions. I was exaggerating a little. In any case, it wasn't a step forward for humanity,

Yes. Exaggerated, just a little. Most will absorb such other exaggerations as gospel, though.