Musicians Arrested

[AndersSN]

If you where a Thai with only a Thai passport you would know how hard it is to get a European UK or USA visa just to as a tourist so your lame idea of punishing the Thais for thier imigration lows will not really work since they already quite being punished.

This is just not true, If you marry someone from the EU and have their child it is very easy to own land, work and get citizenship in the EU.

I'm pretty sure wealthy Thais have no problems getting tourist VISAs either.

That is not true at all.

Denmark has just passed new legislation that as a non EU citizen you have to fulfill a myriad of criteria to be eligible for permanent residence.

This includes educational level and prior jobs as well as prospective job possibilities. I.e. Denmark only wants immigrants who are needed and not just freeloaders.

Being married with child will help, but if you spend your life in a rice field in Isan and a bar in Pataye you have no hope.

[jdinasia]

If you where a Thai with only a Thai passport you would know how hard it is to get a European UK or USA visa just to as a tourist so your lame idea of punishing the Thais for thier imigration lows will not really work since they already quite being punished.

This is just not true, If you marry someone from the EU and have their child it is very easy to own land, work and get citizenship in the EU.

I'm pretty sure wealthy Thais have no problems getting tourist VISAs either.

That is not true at all.

Denmark has just passed new legislation that as a non EU citizen you have to fulfill a myriad of criteria to be eligible for permanent residence.

This includes educational level and prior jobs as well as prospective job possibilities. I.e. Denmark only wants immigrants who are needed and not just freeloaders.

Being married with child will help, but if you spend your life in a rice field in Isan and a bar in Pataye you have no hope.

The UKBA has changed their laws recently too .... Have to speak English (not at a high level) for any kind of visa that leads to settlement. Students in private colleges will no longer be able to work. No student in either private or public schools will get the 2 year PSW (post studies work) and will have to be eligible for tier 2 work visas.

[Loaded]

...Now, to get back to the topic at hand...I think the main difference of opinion here is between the posters who see jamming musicians as "working," and posters (like me) who see it as "art." I have no idea what the Thai government rules are surrounding art. Maybe it's just like work here. My, that would be sad...

It's irrelevant what posters think. Immigration arrested them. It's Immigration's opinion that's relevant.

Then why was this thread launched? Why are you commenting?? You apparently think your opinion is relevant...and so do I... So?

I'm correcting

[ramrod711]

have witnessed first hand, the same sad experience in phuket, but as someone has already stated whether its for fun, free etc, it's just not worth the risk, i guess technically if you were to start painting your house, inside or out, the same scenario applies, you're depriving thais work, so where do you draw the line, immigration should stipulate what you can and can't do under current thai law, then it's up to us to consider the risks.

i know a farang guy that plays in a club. he says that although it is being enforced by the police, it is being driven by neighbouring bars that lose customers because they can't get people to sing for free

[Arkady]

The musicians are playing in a commercial venue. It may put other bars in the area at a competitive disadvantage...

I think the main issue with the Guitarman is that the foreigners playing 'for fun' are taking the place of Thai bands who could play for money...

They couldn't care less whether Thai bands are losing out or not. The police are much more simplistic than that. They raid bars to arrest foreign musicians for two reasons: 1) because they haven't been paid their tea money or haven't been paid enough; 2) because a Thai citizen has complained. I have know bars in Bangkok that regularly featured foreign musicians playing either free or for cash and drinks. The tea money is always set a bit higher than other similar bars in the area on the basis that the police will not bother them about foreign musicians - often they are nice enough to call ahead to warn about other police departments coming to inspect bars, if they know. However, if a Thai complains to Immigration, they may be raided by Immigration which will not normally inform local police in advance. This happened in one case in Bangkok because a Thai staffer tried to get a gig at the bar for her Thai boyfriend's bar and was turned down. A Thai could complain for any reason, not related to the music - e.g. some one fired for theft or a competing bar owner. It is virtually impossible for musicians to have WPs, unless they are a house band for a hotel, and so it is a pretty safe bet for any ill wishers that any foreigners playing in a bar are illegal.

The law is the law but arresting foreigners jamming in bars seems just about as productive as arresting directors of foreign companies that have alien business licences for a specific business activity for allowing another company to share their car park or canteen free of charge, things the Commerce Ministry is currently cracking down on as they are in breach of the Foreign Business Act.

[Semper]

The musicians are playing in a commercial venue. It may put other bars in the area at a competitive disadvantage...

I think the main issue with the Guitarman is that the foreigners playing 'for fun' are taking the place of Thai bands who could play for money...

They couldn't care less whether Thai bands are losing out or not. The police are much more simplistic than that. They raid bars to arrest foreign musicians for two reasons: 1) because they haven't been paid their tea money or haven't been paid enough; 2) because a Thai citizen has complained. I have know bars in Bangkok that regularly featured foreign musicians playing either free or for cash and drinks. The tea money is always set a bit higher than other similar bars in the area on the basis that the police will not bother them about foreign musicians - often they are nice enough to call ahead to warn about other police departments coming to inspect bars, if they know. However, if a Thai complains to Immigration, they may be raided by Immigration which will not normally inform local police in advance. This happened in one case in Bangkok because a Thai staffer tried to get a gig at the bar for her Thai boyfriend's bar and was turned down. A Thai could complain for any reason, not related to the music - e.g. some one fired for theft or a competing bar owner. It is virtually impossible for musicians to have WPs, unless they are a house band for a hotel, and so it is a pretty safe bet for any ill wishers that any foreigners playing in a bar are illegal.

The law is the law but arresting foreigners jamming in bars seems just about as productive as arresting directors of foreign companies that have alien business licences for a specific business activity for allowing another company to share their car park or canteen free of charge, things the Commerce Ministry is currently cracking down on as they are in breach of the Foreign Business Act.

You could be right on this one.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Semper

[Theoutsider]

the bars pay service money to the bib:-D. Who is it the bar call when white folk go crazy when they get drunk:-D.

[Arkady]

Ok let's get away from this for a while, does anybody have any knowledge of how some one can legally play here?

Can i form a music tour company and hire myself and others as performers?

How can i apply for a permit to play in my place?any tricks,advice from anyone?

If i get married,can i get a work permit? any info ,please welcome.

Ok let's forget the last one..lol

Music is not a protected occupation (except for playing Thai traditional instruments) and musiicians can get WPs. Most cases involve house bands in hotels that have large capital and a lot of Thai staff and can easily argue the case that they need foreign musicians to entertain foreign guests. There are foreigners in orchestras like the Thai Philharmonic. I think most are also music teachers, as Thai orchestras don't pay full time salaries, and don't know if they bother to get WPs for the orchestra as well as their school or uni but I think they should be able to. Then there are concerts and music festivals for which it is relatively easy to get a temporary WP for one performance, if the promoter can do the necessary paperwork.

I think your idea of forming a music related company is theoretically possible but may not be practical for most. You would need enough Thai staff and paid-up capital to get all the WPs and it is possible that the Labour Ministry might look for music degrees or diplomas to verify professional qualifications. I don't suppose many of the Filipinos who play in hotels have music degrees but I suspect they go through on the nod, if the hotel is large. It may not be so easy for an new small company that is only in the music business. Then you need to have all the places you are going to play at listed with their addresses as workplaces in your WP. It is illegal to work at any place of business that is not inscribed in your WP and you can be arrested and fined just as if you had no WP at all. Finally, you will have to do all the paperwork for the company, including monthly VAT returns, payroll, social tax and annual accounts. If the company doesn't book a profit in its first year, the Labour Ministry may refuse to renew the WPs. If you own a bar and restaurant, perhaps you can apply for a WP to be the manager of the business and or a musician, although that might raise eyebrows at the Labour Ministry and I have never heard of anyone doing that. I know some one who has a WP for a studio recording business that should enable him to play there but not elsewhere. I think you legally play for free at private clubs like the British Club or Royal Bangkok Sports Club, as music can be portrayed as an activity of the club. You don't need a WP to play tennis there!

Being married to a Thai doesn't make any difference, unless you manage to obtain Thai citizenship as a result of being married to a Thai which is now possible without getting PR first. Even those who have PR are still obliged to have WPs.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Arkady

[sausageandmash]

I believe the reason they got arrested is that the landlord could be paying them, but telling the cops that they do it for free. That's the only reason I can think of. So glad I have a musicians WP. I only get 6 months at a time, but it's worth it for peace of mind.

The whole point is that it's not WORKING it's a LEISURE activity, like I said, playing pool, having a sing song, karaoke, taking photographs, or painting

[ChiangMaiFun]

I believe the reason they got arrested is that the landlord could be paying them, but telling the cops that they do it for free. That's the only reason I can think of. So glad I have a musicians WP. I only get 6 months at a time, but it's worth it for peace of mind.

The whole point is that it's not WORKING it's a LEISURE activity, like I said, playing pool, having a sing song, karaoke, taking photographs, or painting

you cannot work, play instruments or teach, even for free without a WP

Edited April 10, 2011 by ChiangMaiFun

[H2oDunc]

Being a friend to one of the musicians in question they have asked me to say that not one post on this thread has been accurate to the facts so far, some have been close but not accurate, all in question are taking responsibility for their actions and will respect the decision of the courts.

So you are saying nothing in this post is correct yet neither you nor one of the people saying this is all crap will post what " REALLY " happened

It seems they have been arrested for working without a work permit and are whining about it. Even though one of them has been boasting about it on Facebook. It is a bit like listening to the many farangs getting fined for not wearing a helmet and crying stitch up.

As said already. A " Band " playing music in a bar where people are paying for drinks are not doing it for fun. Period!

[jdinasia]

I am curious (as a point of order only) did these "jammers" have a name for their group? Did Guitarman advertise them as an act even on a chalkboard outside the bar?

edit to add --- imho even "live music nightly" would be advertising unless the place has a live house band (legal) there nightly.

I hope the guys that were playing and the bar all are cleared of charges, but even if that happens it does seem like a violation of the intent of the labor law.

Edited April 10, 2011 by jdinasia

[surayu]

I am curious (as a point of order only) did these "jammers" have a name for their group?

An unconfirmed and very unreliable source is suggesting me "The Farangs Sing Sing".

Good luck to them.

[MonPengCarabao]

I see a few venues advertising groups will be playing at their venues when the bar is posing as a bar where people can come and Jam, why is it only this venue that has been targeted and none of the others?

[thaimiller]

I have sympathy for all involved apart from the Dick who was overstayed, its people like him that causes problems for the rest of us.

[chiangmaiexpat]

It seems they have been arrested for working without a work permit and are whining about it. Even though one of them has been boasting about it on Facebook. It is a bit like listening to the many farangs getting fined for not wearing a helmet and crying stitch up.

As said already. A " Band " playing music in a bar where people are paying for drinks are not doing it for fun. Period!

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

It is common for musicians to play unpaid in public venues and it is also common that musicians are doing it just for fun. Only a small percentage of musicians are professionals who are paid regular artist fees. For example, musicians often meet in bars and pubs to join jam sessions, which is a way of meeting and getting to know other musicians. This sort of thing is widespread in the jazz scene, for example. I don't know any particulars of the case in question, but if the musicians claim that they received no payment, it's certainly nothing unusual.

The trouble is that the Alien business law is like many other laws in Thailand: it provides elastic clauses that allow wide ranging interpretations and give the executive force (= police) immense leeway. Time and again this has been used in favour of private interests and against public interests, with the help of the police, of course. Mind you, people have been arrested for lesser "offences", such as painting their house walls or for cutting the ribbon on an opening ceremony. It doesn't seem to matter how ridiculous the case is. If there is an influential phu yai, or a handsome amount of money involved, the police can be instrumentalised. If you have staid in the country a little longer, you will know that this is a Thai way of doing things.

Now, this particular case is deplorable because once again public interests are completely disregarded. Allowing foreign artists to perform freely in Chiang Mai would clearly constitute a win/win scenario. It would be a cultural enrichment, a boost for tourism, and certainly a boon for us expats who live here. But it won't become a reality, because of legal ambiguities, corrupt city management, and quarreling bar owners. Anyone who does not recognise this sad state of affairs, hasn't really opened their eyes.

Cheers, CMX

[yumidesign]

If true this wouldn't be the first time that foreign musicians got busted for performing at Guitar Man. Meanwhile, in many years in the music scene here I've yet to hear of this kind of trouble at another venue. So for now I'd say this sounds like a crackdown on a particular place, not on the scene in general. And who said there was freedom of expression around here anyway?

i would say you are exactly right in everyway

[surayu]

Mind you, people have been arrested for lesser "offences", such as painting their house walls or for cutting the ribbon on an opening ceremony.

What you are writing here is something new to me, i made a search on the forum regarding anyone been arrested because he was painting the walls of his residence, but so far the only thread was about an OP saying he's been told by someone else that someone is been arrested for this in Pattaya, other people joining that conversation dismissed the thing as an "urban legend" and so far nobody came up with some reliable source or even denied this.

So it would be great if you can demostrate what are you claiming here is actually a true thing and not another "urban myth", as it is a very serious matter

, thanks.

[sniffdog]

Last week I farted in a Pattaya Soi 6 bar and all the girls laughed their heads off. I was promptly arrested for providing entertainment without a WP.

Edited April 10, 2011 by sniffdog

[balo]

what about the many internet (farang) workers you meet? working from home but on a business which is not based in Thailand? isn't that still. technically, working?

Yes but we do it from our home , not in public.

My business is in Europe. If the police wants to knock on my door to find out , I have no business anymore, I have to move out, and Thailand will get no more money from me.

We will both lose.

[Semper]

Being a friend to one of the musicians in question they have asked me to say that not one post on this thread has been accurate to the facts so far, some have been close but not accurate, all in question are taking responsibility for their actions and will respect the decision of the courts.

So you are saying nothing in this post is correct yet neither you nor one of the people saying this is all crap will post what " REALLY " happened

<deleted>!!!

It seems they have been arrested for working without a work permit and are whining about it. Even though one of them has been boasting about it on Facebook. It is a bit like listening to the many farangs getting fined for not wearing a helmet and crying stitch up.

As said already. A " Band " playing music in a bar where people are paying for drinks are not doing it for fun. Period!

Yes sir, you are right

[jdinasia]

what about the many internet (farang) workers you meet? working from home but on a business which is not based in Thailand? isn't that still. technically, working?

Yes but we do it from our home , not in public.

My business is in Europe. If the police wants to knock on my door to find out , I have no business anymore, I have to move out, and Thailand will get no more money from me.

We will both lose.

Probably not a great loss to Thailand since you are working here and evading taxes here?

[chiangmaiexpat]

So it would be great if you can demostrate what are you claiming here is actually a true thing and not another "urban myth", as it is a very serious matter

Surayu, all I can tell you is that these two cases were related to me by sources I consider reliable and that they occurred more than 10 years ago. The first case was a lad who got arrested while overseeing the renovation of his premises in Bangkok and the second case was an Italian businessman who flew in just for the purpose of opening a representative office in Bangkok. Allegedly, the police was tipped of in both cases by people who did not like competitors.

I have been living here for nearly twenty years, worked with the Thai government, with officials of foreign governments, and of course with private companies. I am also a (hobby) musician.

I have to say that I feel slightly irritated by certain people on this board (not yourself) accusing other farangs -about whom they probably know nothing- of breaking the law or of tax evasion and I am not very inclined to contribute anything further. Sorry, but I rather bow out.

:jap:

Cheers, CMX

Edited April 10, 2011 by chiangmaiexpat

[Semper]

what about the many internet (farang) workers you meet? working from home but on a business which is not based in Thailand? isn't that still. technically, working?

Yes but we do it from our home , not in public.

My business is in Europe. If the police wants to knock on my door to find out , I have no business anymore, I have to move out, and Thailand will get no more money from me.

We will both lose.

Don't forget to close the door.

[ChiangMaiFun]

what about the many internet (farang) workers you meet? working from home but on a business which is not based in Thailand? isn't that still. technically, working?

Yes but we do it from our home , not in public.

My business is in Europe. If the police wants to knock on my door to find out , I have no business anymore, I have to move out, and Thailand will get no more money from me.

We will both lose.

Don't forget to close the door.

on the way out

[nycjoe]

A fellow I know was arrested 3 weeks ago at another venue, for playing music without a permit. It seems there is a new big boss at CM immigration...............

[ThaiPauly]

There is now a new topic running about this subject so I am closing this one

///CLOSED///