Notarized Letter From Us Embassy Stating Income

[TacoBoy]

I don't need to report you, but am telling you IMO that what you are doing and saying is racist and to stop and desist.

Discrimination of person's of certian origin, geographic locations, religon, race, color of skin, physical disabilities, etc.

Racism defined:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Declarations_and_international_law_against_racial_discrimination

[Jingthing]

I don't need to report you, but am telling you IMO that what you are doing and saying is racist and to stop and desist.

Discrimination of person's of certian origin, geographic locations, religon, race, color of skin, physical disabilities, etc.

Racism defined:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Declarations_and_international_law_against_racial_discrimination

Thanks for sharing but now I think you have gone WAY over the top and are being totally ridiculous. Telling me to cease and desist -- that's rich. The mods will read this I'm sure but if you felt that strongly you SHOULD have reported it. They can decide. I am not worried that I am going to be called racist for discussing a Thai immigration policy that appears to be focused specifically on Americans.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[JimGant]

Income verification is cut and dry that income is proved by the letter from the applicant's embassy in thailand, just as the requirment of money in a thai bank with an updated passbook and a certified letter from the bank to satisfy the money in a thai bank test.

You're joking, right?

Proving money in the bank with a passbook -- and a letter verifying, effectively, that the passbook is not a forgery -- seems ironclad.

Especially when compared to an embassy letter that merely indicates the applicant has sworn he receives $xx every month. "Cut and dry that the income is proved?" Not hardly.

Para 2.22 says, "(3) Proof of income of not less than Baht 65,000 per month;" Somewhere else (I know not where) guidance is given that one's embassy or consulate can provide this "proof of income." Obviously the hope was that one's diplomatic folks would be better able to verify income (in all its various languages) than would Immigration. However, it hasn't worked out this way, even for those embassies that ask to see a paper trail. (None require certified paperwork, as far as I've seen. And gross income is allowed, which really doesn't tell Immigration how much cash flow you really have to support yourself in Thailand.)

Immigration probably smells a rat -- and may just be doing some random sampling to see how far they're being bamboozled by "income verification" statements. They did something like this when they tightened-up the bank route, requiring 3-months at or above 800k (after they realized the same 800k was floating amongst several farangs).

I wouldn't be surprised if the combo method soon becomes the requirement when "income verification" is involved. With a substantial minimum-in-the-bank requirement.

Oh, do you really think Immigration doesn't have the charter to ask for more proof of income, particularly if the applicant has a tattoo on his forehead, and a double nose piercing? There's definitely some subjectivity used -- and needed -- when determining who gets to be a guest in a foreign country. If Immigration has seen an uptick of long-stay keynok farangs, maybe this has raised their suspicion of the "income verification" method.

Racism? No. Discrimination? Yes. And applauded.

If denied in Thailand (not frequent, but allowed), there's always the following para to fall back on (from Police Order 777/2551):

4. If the applicant does not fully meet the qualifications as prescribed by this order, the competent official shall inform the applicant for his/her denial and he/she departs within 7 days after the permission date ended.

In case the applicant wishes to review the denial by the orders mentioned in clause 1, the applicant shall re-submit an application for another review, citing the reasons for the re-submission in a letter to a competent official holding a rank of a police inspector and higher. This is for the purpose of obtaining a decision in writing on the application. In this case, the applicant may attach all supporting documents to the application for re-submission at the same time. The review shall be carried out within the time limit prescribed by paragraph 1. During the proceeding of the consideration, the competent official shall set the date of result hearing within 7 days after the review application is submitted.

[JimGant]

A related thread re income verification:

HERE

[mojaco]

...

...

I am American, extended my visa for retirement purposes 8 times using 800K at first but lately the 65K route. And the only thing that counts is what Immigtation wants when I go in the door. Mr. TB is becoming boring in the childish repetition of "That's all Immigration needs is a USA verification that it was indeed I who signed my OWN assertation of funds". Power to him if he goes in with that attitude.

AND JT is NOT anywhere close to being "racist" in this discussion. Your saying so just emphasize

an immature understanding of reality.

I appreciate JT's thoughtful discourses.

Edited March 26, 2011 by mojaco

[BngkkB]

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to the questions about my earlier post.

As Poorsucker observed, I was applying for an extension on the grounds of marriage.

Jingthing: The amount I put on my Embassy letter is the same amount I transfer to my Thai Bank account. This makes everything nice and tidy. It does not seem very wise, to me at least, to disclose my full financial situation to a Thai Immigration officer when the amount I have transferred to Thailand on a Monthly basis is more than sufficent for their requirments. At least to me it does not make sense for anyone to transfer all of their assetts to a country where one is a guest. A country that it is very easy to transfer funds into but not out of. But that is just my humble opinion.

On a side note; I had always found it amousing that up until this last time Thai Immigrations would only accept a letter from the US Embassy verification of Income when the Embassy itself does not ask for any proof and gives you an "Official Document" based on ones word no supporting evidence.

BngkkB

[Jingthing]

Thanks for the details.

So I think so far (correct me if I'm wrong) we have had two reports about this possible change of policy for Americans using income letters, both in Bangkok, both doing marriage extensions (rather than retirement extensions).

What can be concluded about this? I don't think so much yet, but certainly it would make sense for Americans to be prepared to show additional documentation for their income letter claims (more than ever).

[tropo]

Thai immigration KNOWS Americans can get income letters of any amount they say, no documentation needed at the embassy. If immigration responds to that with varied enforcement POLICIES (different than official written rules) for Americans only, as it appears they may be, Americans either accept that and play along, or see you at BKK (airport).

For the purposes of this discussion we should add Australians. Australians don't need to show any proof for their Statutory Declaration of income from the Embassy. I'd be interested to hear how Australians are going too.

Edited March 26, 2011 by tropo

[JimGant]

So I think so far (correct me if I'm wrong) we have had two reports about this possible change of policy for Americans using income letters, both in Bangkok, both doing marriage extensions (rather than retirement extensions).

JL, the link I posted in #34, above, involves a retirement extension. So, "possible change of policy" looks to affect both retiree and marriage extensions. At least, so far, only in Bangkok...

[Mrjlh]

Thanks for the details.

So I think so far (correct me if I'm wrong) we have had two reports about this possible change of policy for Americans using income letters, both in Bangkok, both doing marriage extensions (rather than retirement extensions).

What can be concluded about this? I don't think so much yet, but certainly it would make sense for Americans to be prepared to show additional documentation for their income letter claims (more than ever).

I'll state it again, when I left Immigration after receiving my "O" visa, I was told to come back with a letter from my Embassy and a letter from the bank. I'm using the monthly income route.

So let's simply break that down. Law says 800,000 baht a year "total" with combinations. I think this is where the fault lies. If you do the monthly, B65,000 x 12 = B 780,000. Short B20K. So if you think you only need B65K a month you are wrong, you need to show the extra in a bank statement and that to me is what the Officer is asking for. And they always want to see more than that when possible. The next problem is with the Thai Baht exchange rate constantly changing. When I first came here 4.5 years ago, my income was well over the B800K limit. But now it's on the cuspid. When I went in I only gave them the Embassy letter which she accepted because it calculated out to be just over the B800K. Times have changed. It also depends on which rate Immigration uses. I don't think they are trying to "descredit" anyone, they just want make sure you meet the requirements. And that is simply they're job.

[Mario2008]

You show:

800,000 in the bank

OR

65,000 month

OR

a combination of yearly income and money in the bank totaling 800,000.

65,000 a month is not 65,000 a month AND 20,000 in the bank.

[Mrjlh]

dual post

Edited March 27, 2011 by Mrjlh

[Mrjlh]

You show:

800,000 in the bank

OR

65,000 month

OR

a combination of yearly income and money in the bank totaling 800,000.

65,000 a month is not 65,000 a month AND 20,000 in the bank.

Mario, with all due respect, I beg to differ. I think this is where all the confusion comes from for many of us. You are in fact one of the most knowledgeable in this matter but when the Immigration Officer tells me to bring a letter from the bank, it also tells me my income letter wasn't enough. I believe Immigration looks at the Magic Number...B800,000! TOTAL. Not just B65K and 65K doesn't add up to it. What I presented to them was over the 65K a month but just shy of the B800K a year if multiplied by 12. By your statement I should not need to show any more proof but that is not the case. I need to show the "combination" of both to equal B800K, I will ask them point blank after I get my VISA on how they calculated it and report back. I believe it's all a matter on how you interpret the language of the law. Ours and theirs.

[phuketrichard]

I went on Thursday the 24th of March for a One Year extension. When I presented the US Embassy letter of Income the official asked for a copy of my Thai Bank Book. I explained I did not bring it with me as the year before they refused that as proof and demanded the letter from the US Embassy. The official explained to me that they are now also requiring a copy of a Thai Bank Book. I asked if I could get a Statement from my Bank Branch downstairs and she agreed. I got a statement of my Thai Bank activity for the last 6 months. She went over the deposits pretty carefully before sending me to the second desk to hand in all my paperwork.

At the second desk, the lady official there also examined the Bank Statement more carefully then any other paperwork. Once she was satisfied she initialled the stamp in my passport and told me to come back in about a month for the year extension stamp.

The first Immigration officer told me that she was spending most of her time now a days explaining the new change to people as it was not in print anywhere. She did not tell me if I could supply only the Bank Statement instead of the Embassy letter. But I had a feeling they were requiring both. The Thai Bank statement verifing the letter from the Embassy.

Hope this helps.

For retirement extension? how much did u have in your bank as if u had over 800,000 you did not need the letter.

Also here in phuket a retirement extension is done in 15 minutes and u do not need to return a month later but get ur full year.

To mnay unknowns in ur story.

[Spaniel]

I will be applying for the 1 year extension, using the US embassy letter, on 4 April. Will let you know how it turns out.

[lopburi3]

The requirement is 800k or 65k and there is no requirement that it be 800k if using income method alone (only when using combination is the 800k figure used).

(3) Proof of income of not less than Baht 65,000 per month; or

(4) Account deposit with a bank in Thailand of not less than

800,000 Baht as shown in the bank account for the past 3 months

at the filing date of the application. For the first year, the applicant

should have that amount in his bank account for not less than 60

days or

(5) Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less

than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date of application

[gk10002000]

Here is the list of required and acceptable documents required by Thai Immigration per their website. The proof and evidence of income is a certified letter from the applicant's embassy in Thailand.

Income verification is cut and dry that income is proved by the letter from the applicant's embassy in thailand, just as the requirment of money in a thai bank with an updated passbook and a certified letter from the bank to satisfy the money in a thai bank test.

This is the law and the rule. Don't try to read more into it or because an official asks for more documentation. This is the current rule and test of proof.

http://www.immigrati...004/en/base.php

List of documents for extension of stay in case of Retirement

1. Application Form ( TM 7) with one photograph (size 4x6 cm.)
2. Passport and its photocopy with certified true copy by the alien
3. Application fee: 1,900 Baht
4. Documents required are as follows;
   • The account deposit with the bank in Thailand of not less than 800,000 Baht.
     The proof of such evidence is the updated bank passbook with the certified letter from the bank showing the money in the account of not less than 800,000 Baht which has been deposited in the account for the previous 3 months. OR
   • Income from pension/social welfare of not less than 65,000 Baht per month.
     The proof of such evidence is a letter from the applicant's Embassy or Consulate in Thailand to certify that the applicant receives pension or other income of not less than 65,000 Baht per month. OR
   • A combination of the account deposite in the bank plus income (from pension or other source per yearX witha combined total of not less than 800,000 Baht.

I started a similar post last week and someone also quoted the 65k income requirement and what "income" means. Look carefully at the quote above. The sentence starts with "pension/social welfare"... but then the descriptive sentence says "pension or other income .." So the lead in implies a pension, whereas the description imples "other income". I interpret that to mean a reasonable expectation of income due to Dividends, Bond Interest and other types of fixed income entities.

So again, the law/guidelines are poorly written.

[Mario2008]

Mario, with all due respect, I beg to differ. I think this is where all the confusion comes from for many of us. You are in fact one of the most knowledgeable in this matter but when the Immigration Officer tells me to bring a letter from the bank, it also tells me my income letter wasn't enough. I believe Immigration looks at the Magic Number...B800,000! TOTAL. Not just B65K and 65K doesn't add up to it. What I presented to them was over the 65K a month but just shy of the B800K a year if multiplied by 12. By your statement I should not need to show any more proof but that is not the case. I need to show the "combination" of both to equal B800K, I will ask them point blank after I get my VISA on how they calculated it and report back. I believe it's all a matter on how you interpret the language of the law. Ours and theirs.

Some offices also will want you to show a bankbook in Thailand with some money in it, to see if you have money to spend in Thailand. It is not to see if you have 800,000 together with your income, but to see if yu have actual money to spend in Thailand as income does not have to be received or even brought into Thailand.

[TacoBoy]

If they had a definate bank requirement, then why would there be 3 categories which qualify for supporting documents. There would be no need for the income only category.

Even then, 100 baht in a thai bank and income of 799,900 would equal the combination amount also.

1. Bank Deposit

2. Income only

3. combination Bank and Income equalling 800,000 a year

Is it published anywhere that a person with a retirment visa have a bank account in Thailand.

Many banks will not open accounts for foreigners unless they have a Business Visa or Work Permit.

This is particularly the case in north and rural thailand away from Bangkok.

Edited March 27, 2011 by TacoBoy

[mojaco]

If they had a definate bank requirement, then why would there be 3 categories which qualify for supporting documents. There would be no need for the income only category.

Even then, 100 baht in a thai bank and income of 799,900 would equal the combination amount also.

1. Bank Deposit

2. Income only

3. combination Bank and Income equalling 800,000 a year

Is it published anywhere that a person with a retirment visa have a bank account in Thailand.

Many banks will not open accounts for foreigners unless they have a Business Visa or Work Permit.

This is particularly the case in north and rural thailand away from Bangkok.

No trouble for me (retirement) and foreign wife (dependent) BOTH to open a bank account with Bangkok Bank in Chiang Rai. Of course it probably "depends" like all things in Thailand. But clearly in Bangkok, LOTS of banks will open accounts for a person. Many even if on a tourist visa (Krung Thai Bank for instance.) So very easy to get a bank account. Even if one lives "up north", just open an account in Bangkok. Can use the ATM card everywhere. And withdraw funds using a Bangkok-issued passbook from any northern bank of the same bank. Or also get Internet Banking to make life even easier.

So, using a "hard to get bank account" as a point of reasoning is fallacious.

Edited March 27, 2011 by mojaco

[Jingthing]

I completely agree if using the income method SOLELY (retirement), the requirement is 65K per month, and no that does not quite make 800K but again the rule is indeed 65K per month. People showing income of 65K per month are NOT using the combo method. It is also true many offices are requiring to show a Thai bank account of some amount even for people solely using the income method. This isn't related to the fact that 65 x 12 equals 780. They would require to show the bank account even if an applicant was showing 300K per month. No, this need to show an account is NOT in the official rules you will find anywhere, but we know this is a common ENFORCEMENT POLICY.

There is a kind of a recurring theme on the visa forum. There are the hard wired written rules which anyone can be certain of, and then there are those slippery, varying ENFORCEMENT POLICIES which are not official written rules but are just as important to getting your visa or extension. They can change over time, they can be different at different offices, embassies, consulates, etc. That is a great value of this forum to keep track of them.

I also that it is easy for a foreigner to open a Thai bank account. My current impression is that it does vary bank to bank, and branch to branch, but I think Kasikorn will up accounts for people even on 30 day stamps.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Jingthing

[beechguy]

If they had a definate bank requirement, then why would there be 3 categories which qualify for supporting documents. There would be no need for the income only category.

Even then, 100 baht in a thai bank and income of 799,900 would equal the combination amount also.

1. Bank Deposit

2. Income only

3. combination Bank and Income equalling 800,000 a year

Is it published anywhere that a person with a retirment visa have a bank account in Thailand.

Many banks will not open accounts for foreigners unless they have a Business Visa or Work Permit.

This is particularly the case in north and rural thailand away from Bangkok.

First it is not a visa, it is a one year "Extension of Permission to Stay", and it does say a Thai Bank for the 800K. For the combination method, it just says bank account, but I attribute that to normal Thai language, and I'm sure they intended that also to be a Thai bank.

Look at this translation of the Police Order found in the Pinned Topics Section, Section 2.22 applies to retirement. If you can read Thai, I'll post the link to the Thai version for comparison if you want.

http://www.immigrati...777-2551_en.pdf

I haven't found opening a bank account in Thailand to be a problem.

Edited March 27, 2011 by beechguy

[lopburi3]

Even if one lives "up north", just open an account in Bangkok.

Doing so will result in extra charge every time you withdraw money. You want the bank account where you live.

[Jingthing]

For retirement extensions in Thailand using the income method or combo method, the banked part must be in a Thai bank account. If using the income method only and the officer asks to see a bank account, he also means Thai bank account.

If applying for a retirement visa (O-A) in your home country, the banked money proof if used is typically in your home country, not Thailand, and that is fine.

[TacoBoy]

A very close friend in Chiang Rai desperatly tried just about every bank and branch in that area to open an account without success. He even had assistance from local professional (not referring to "working girls") employed Thai's who speak perfect english and translated.

Non of the chiang Rai banks could be bothered and said it was a policy only to issue with a Business Visa or Work Permit and proper Visa to support the WP.

Even at the CR Big C Siam Commercial, Bangkok Bank, and nearby Kasakorn Thai bank all would not open bank accounts.

I tried at a differnet time to open a bank account in Chiang Rai at many banks and branches with my retirement (extension) visa and was told I needed either a work permit or a Business Visa.

Fortunatley I do not need a thai bank account to meet the income need, and hate to transfer money into any lady's account regardless of her relationship to me.

Used to be cheaper to use the ATM per month than an international wire fee, but with recnet bank changes worldwide, the fees sure do add up now.

So I grin and bear it when I am charged the extra atm fees by my home country bank and the soemtimes thai fee of 150 thb (unless using an AEON atm)

Edited March 27, 2011 by TacoBoy

[Jingthing]

OK, that's a fair and useful point, and it makes sense. It is perfectly believable that it would be hard to open a Thai bank account in certain localities without a work permit, etc. Thanks for that.

[jackdawson]

glad i got through a month a go w/ just the embassy letter .

note to self ; get 800,000 into my BB account in about 6 months (ouch !)

[longball53098]

Regarding the problems some folks have opening a bank account in their local areas? It was pointed out to me by a bank manager here where I live that if a foreigner walked in to his bank with a request to open an account and that foreigner did not have a WP he could not open an account. But in the next sentence he did say if a foreigner walked in that came from another region and already had an account from said bank that he would be compelled to open a new account in his bank as the customer already has a relationship with the bank.

So for folks that are having trouble getting an account in the local area maybe next trip to BKK open an account there which seems to be easy and when you return home then go to the local branch of the same bank and try to open a new account there,,,,,,,,possibly better luck now with an existing account at the bank in BKK. If this still proves unsuccessful you can always close the account in BKK next trip.

[Spaniel]

glad i got through a month a go w/ just the embassy letter .

note to self ; get 800,000 into my BB account in about 6 months (ouch !)

Keep in mind you may not need to have B800,000. If you have a pension totaling $10,000 per year that would give you B300,000 so you would only need to have B500,000 in the account.

[phuketrichard]

•A combination of the account deposite in the bank plus income (from pension or other source per yearX witha combined total of not less than 800,000 Baht.

does the amount in the bank need be seasoned?

i want use part pension as i just started getting one and part in the bank