Policy On Thai Residency Should Not Be Secret

[Lite Beer]

Phuket Opinion: Policy on Thai residency should not be secret

Pol Capt Purachai Piemsomboon. Gazette file photo

PHUKET: It's time for the Ministry of Interior (MoI) to set up a special task force to begin fast-tracking the processing of the huge backlog of permanent residency (PR) applications it is now sitting on in silence.

Such a move would have multiple benefits for all parties involved, including, especially, foreign investors (potential and extant) and Thailand’s all-important tourism industry.

For reasons that have apprently never been divulged by the MoI, the stacks of stale PR applications, submitted in good faith and at great expense by law-abiding, long resident "visitors" to Thailand, continue to gather dust at the ministry.

The farce has aged to the extent that any foreigner who technically qualifies for permanent residency status under the Immigration Act would certainly be put off from applying at all, given that the current plethora of applications dates back to at least 2006.

The breakdown in processing these applications reportedly stems from a xenophobic decision put in place almost a decade ago by 'social order' activiist Purachai Piemsomboon, Interior Minister (and foe of Phuket's night entertainment industry) under former premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Phuket Gazette readers will know that Police Captain Purachai agreed last week to lead the Pracha Santi Party into the upcoming general elections, and that pollsters see him as a credible contender for the nation's premiership.

Thailand’s current requirements for foreigners to obtain permanent residency are among the most restrictive in the world, at least for male applicants seeking that status on the basis of marriage to a Thai and support of a Thai family.

Current regulations make it far easier for the foreign spouse of a Thai man to obtain residency, a fact which is inherently sexist and completely at odds with the spirit of Thailand's current constitution.

At its heart, qualification for residency status requires male applicants to prove beyond any doubt that their presence in the Kingdom is advantageous to the country. Applicants are also required to prove that they have been in the country for a minimum of three years on consecutively-issued, one-year permits-to-stay, and have paid all of their taxes.

Another stringent requirement put in place during Pol Capt Purachai’s tenure requires male applicants to pass a Thai-language test. Few other countries, with the notable exception of the United Kingdom, impose similar requirements on visa and/or residency applicants – with good reason.

Even the United States puts the primacy of the family unit over language concerns.

Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand’s expatriate community. Simply ignoring their applications, submitted in good faith over the past five years, is unacceptable.

If the Government wants to do away with this avenue for immigration, it should amend the Immigration Act to reflect this fact; announce the amendment widely; and stop wasting everybody’s time.

-- Phuket Gazette 2011-03-27

[TheWalkingMan]

People have been waiting since 2006? That is insane and must be driving people nuts waiting for the call. But he is right, if the people in charge do not want permanent residents, then they should eliminate that avenue.

TheWalkingMan

[whybother]

People have been waiting since 2006? That is insane and must be driving people nuts waiting for the call. But he is right, if the people in charge do not want permanent residents, then they should eliminate that avenue.

TheWalkingMan

Basically, they've been approved, but just sitting on someone's desk awaiting a final signature.

[Darrel]

"Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand’s expatriate community."

Not sure that's saying much. Most foreigners I've seen working here are pretty incompetent (I doubt anyone would employ them in the West, which I suppose is why they are here) and anyone retired here presumably doesnt need to bother about permanent residency anyway.

Maybe there's some other group of sparkling expats that I have yet to encounter.

[gosompoi]

Agreed! This is our #1 reason for possibly leaving Thailand, our family unit is held hostage by immigration lack of any real permanent residency. My country will allow our entire family unit to immigrate and not treat us as third class citizens.

[howzat]

"Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand's expatriate community."

Not sure that's saying much. Most foreigners I've seen working here are pretty incompetent (I doubt anyone would employ them in the West, which I suppose is why they are here) and anyone retired here presumably doesnt need to bother about permanent residency anyway.

Maybe there's some other group of sparkling expats that I have yet to encounter.

You are talking twaddle young man. Take more water with your whisky and move up the next step of the ladder on the social scale.

[Tatsujin]

Not sure that's saying much. Most foreigners I've seen working here are pretty incompetent (I doubt anyone would employ them in the West, which I suppose is why they are here) and anyone retired here presumably doesnt need to bother about permanent residency anyway.

Please don't lump us all into the same boat <grins> . . . I would like to think I am NOT incompetent and have had successful businesses in the UK and currently in Thailand.

[Darrel]

move up the next step of the ladder on the social scale.

Not sure that I want to, thanks! I've had a guided tour and it seems to me the higher you go here the better the view of someone else's behind.

Not my scene at all, but those who like it are welcome to it.

[southbot]

Darrel, I know many expats in Thailand who are perfectly efficient and competent in their jobs and are working in Thailand simply because they really like Thailand, Thai people, Thai food, lifestyle, tropical islands, jungle, mountains, temples, etc, etc.

In fact, I am in Australia just now and am amazed at the incompetent fools I run into here every single day. Especially those running the country and local governments.

I have, in fact, met some of the most brilliantly intelligent, creative, productive and hard working people anywhere in the world right in Thailand.

I have lived and worked in many countries and find that in Thailand I meet the most interesting people.

I don't know where you are coming from mate, but I sure know I don't want to go there.

Just my five Bahts worth is all.

Cheers and no insult intended.

[ZeroIce]

"Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand's expatriate community."

Not sure that's saying much. Most foreigners I've seen working here are pretty incompetent (I doubt anyone would employ them in the West, which I suppose is why they are here) and anyone retired here presumably doesnt need to bother about permanent residency anyway.

Maybe there's some other group of sparkling expats that I have yet to encounter.

"Small Things amuses Small Minds". Improve our Country, do not Break it Down. " Be Silent and let everyone think that you do not have the capabilities, do not open your mouth and prove that they were correct".

[exbelg]

so why not impose a minimum limit of a lump sum on the bank, lets say: 10.000.000 baht.... are you incompetent or whatever if you managed to get this sum on your bank account ???

but the rich chinese elite does not want us here, we are like cattle they can probe around like they want

they want to be a first class hub of something (555) but cannot treath people alike, not even their own poor north and south neighbours they like to keep poor and working as their slaves, in their home or on their land

western people with ideals of equiality and libery, nah; that is not needed in thailand

[Mario2008]

Off topic comment deleted.

[antony77]

I can't understand why anyone wants to pay a lot of money and go through all the hassle to get Permanent residence. You still have to go to immigration once a year to get a re-entry permit which is only valid for one year. About 12 years ago, mine was cancelled because I could not get back to Thailand in time. I could have applied for a new one, instead I opted for a retirement visa which I have had since then. Getting a yearly extension for my retirement visa is far less hassle than going to the Income Tax department every year to submit an income tax return which obligatory for permanent residents. I had to get papers to prove that I had paid tax on my overseas income and submit to many questions and fill in forms etc.

Nowadays it seems that getting a retirement visa and re-entry takes only a few minutes. If you can afford to get a permanent residence, instead you could get a lawyer to get your retirement visa renewed and re-entry permit without going to immigration. He can do your 90 day reporting as well.

If you are not eligible for a retirement visa then you could apply for permanent residence.

That may be a waste of money because in time to come when many retirees get very old the law is bound to change for humanitarian reasons. I am sure they will be able to get long term retirement visas eventually.

[makkam]

"Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand's expatriate community."

Not sure that's saying much. Most foreigners I've seen working here are pretty incompetent (I doubt anyone would employ them in the West, which I suppose is why they are here) and anyone retired here presumably doesnt need to bother about permanent residency anyway.

Maybe there's some other group of sparkling expats that I have yet to encounter.

One of the reasons I come on here is posts like this.

Someone who is bright, personable, in the know, not prone to over-exaggeration or stereotyping.

Someone who, in short, knows it all.

I bet your first on everyone's list of 'must have' dinner guests

[renaissanc]

The PR problem has been going on for a long time. I've been living in Thailand for 26 years. I can't be bothered with the cost of applying for PR and all the administration involved. I renew my visa every year for 1,900 Baht on the basis of marriage or having a company, and my work permit renewal is simple. It's so much easier.

I'm fluent in speaking and reading Thai, but I can't spell as I never have to write Thai, so I suppose I'd fail the language test and therefore be rejected. (No doubt the fee is non-returnable, particularly the under-the-table fee.)

[thailandadam]

Darrel, I know many expats in Thailand who are perfectly efficient and competent in their jobs and are working in Thailand simply because they really like Thailand, Thai people, Thai food, lifestyle, tropical islands, jungle, mountains, temples, etc, etc.

In fact, I am in Australia just now and am amazed at the incompetent fools I run into here every single day. Especially those running the country and local governments.

I have, in fact, met some of the most brilliantly intelligent, creative, productive and hard working people anywhere in the world right in Thailand.

I have lived and worked in many countries and find that in Thailand I meet the most interesting people.

I don't know where you are coming from mate, but I sure know I don't want to go there.

Just my five Bahts worth is all.

Cheers and no insult intended.

Yeah, I have to agree; I've met _many_ great, successful people every time I come to Thailand. In fact, I remain friends with some of them and feel that the country attracts an overall, interesting, extraordinary crowd. That being said, there's always that certain percentage of rotten apples in any bunch, where ever it is in the world.

And, that's my one Baht worth...

[MaiChai]

Its not good for society to be obsessed with wealth, and your position is society dictated by how rich you are. Thailand has become like this. Pinning permanent residency on the basis of how rich you are goes against humanitarian principles; you should be allow residency on the basis of marriage or supporting children. Most foriegners would be able to support local family based on working locally, even if they are just earning Thai salaries. The system is basically racist and unfair. Hence why any foreigner who has any sense does not settle here but retains residency elsewhere.

So the question arises: who in Thailand has the political motivation to correct the unfairness in the system? I think the answer is there is no financial motivation for anyone to change the system, so it wont change. Even Abhisit with his British background has shown no interest.

Thailand will continue to be an unfair and divided society simply because of the obsession with wealth and being rich. The country has never experience any form of socialism, and i think it really shows.

[scotbeve]

Darrel, I know many expats in Thailand who are perfectly efficient and competent in their jobs and are working in Thailand simply because they really like Thailand, Thai people, Thai food, lifestyle, tropical islands, jungle, mountains, temples, etc, etc.

In fact, I am in Australia just now and am amazed at the incompetent fools I run into here every single day. Especially those running the country and local governments.

I have, in fact, met some of the most brilliantly intelligent, creative, productive and hard working people anywhere in the world right in Thailand.

I have lived and worked in many countries and find that in Thailand I meet the most interesting people.

I don't know where you are coming from mate, but I sure know I don't want to go there.

Just my five Bahts worth is all.

Cheers and no insult intended.

Southbot,

At least you didn't have to endure the embarrassing administrations, in recent years, running (change a few letters and it becomes ruining) your country as bad as my home country - now there's incompetence!!!

[p_brownstone]

You still have to go to immigration once a year to get a re-entry permit which is only valid for one year.

Not exactly correct.

Only if you leave Thailand do you have to apply for a Re-entry Permit, this is valid for Re-entry for 12 months from the date of issue.

I have not left Thailand for more than 3 years and I have had no contact with any Government Department - not even to Report to the local Police every 90 days.

About 12 years ago, mine was cancelled because I could not get back to Thailand in time.

Maybe - but see above.

If you had Permanent Residence status, only if you did not return to Thailand within 12 months of your exit would that be voided.

Getting a yearly extension for my retirement visa is far less hassle than going to the Income Tax department every year to submit an Income Tax return which obligatory for permanent residents. I had to get papers to prove that I had paid tax on my overseas income and submit to many questions and fill in forms etc.

Wrong.

The requirement to obtain a Tax Clearance Certificate before leaving Thailand was abolished by the Anand Panyarachun Government – which must be at least 10 years ago now.

And in any case it did not apply only to Foreigners with Permanent Residence, it applied to anyone who had been in the Country for (if I remember correctly) more than 90 Days.

I admit it was a total pain and inconvenience – and irritating! - to have to submit to an interview by a junior Government Official and answer questions about my Income and Expenditure in order to obtain this Tax Clearance - and that was the main reason why I considered applying for Thai Citizenship at that time.

Once the Tax Clearance was no longer needed I lost all interest in obtaining Thai Citizenship.

All that said, there are few reasons I could think of today to justify the current expense of acquiring Permanent Residence status unless the end goal was full Thai Citizenship.

Patrick

Edited March 28, 2011 by p_brownstone

[Arkady]

I agree with the Phuket Gazette's main thrust. That is that the MoI should clarify its policy regarding permanent residence and make the process transparent and subject to judicial review, rather than up to the sole discretion of the minister with no right of appeal or review. There should also be a timeline, as there was before the odious Purachai interfered with the process and reduced Immigration's role to clerical work. Immigration used to be in charge and virtually guaranteed applicants a response within 12 months and usually told people why they were rejected which gave many the chance to fix the problem and reapply successfully, as a friend of mine did. Only 7 people with heavy weight connections have apparently been approved since 2006 and no applications were accepted in 2010 at all.

As the Gazette says, if the government has decided that it will no longer issue PR for whatever reasons, then it should announce that and let foreigners know that they will never have permanent residence status in Thailand, rather than leave them with false hopes. Then they can plan their lives accordingly.

The Gazette's comment about people with Thai families is a bit confusing. The most important thing has always been to have a decent job (not one's own or wife's small business), earning more than the basic minimum with a reputable company and to have paid plenty of tax. They have never cared much about whether applicants are married to Thais or have Thai children but will submit you and your family to a lot more checks anyway, if you have a Thai family. It is almost as if a respectable Thai spouse might help a little bit but non-respectable one would damage your applicant. I applied successfully in the 90s as a single person and there was never any suggestion that not having a Thai wife was any kind of disadvantage. There is indeed a category of application "to support Thai dependants" but this has never been significant, since applicants under this category have always had to meet the same work, income and tax requirements as every one else, according to the internal guidelines. A TV member with no job in Thailand claimed he got his lawyer to force Immigration to accept an application under this category but presumably it stood nil chance.

The comments about foreign women are also misleading. There have never been any evidence that foreign women with Thai husbands got PR more easily than foreign men with Thai wives. There are required to meet the same work and tax requirements as men. As mentioned above, it seems in practice that having a Thai spouse was at a best a small help and at worst an encumbrance. As far as I know, very few women with Thai husbands have ever applied for PR, since they have always been allowed to apply for Thai citizenship directly without having PR first and with no requirement to have a job or pay tax (they scrutinize the husband's job and tax instead, although income of only B15,000 a month is required in theory). This inequity was partially eliminated under the 2008 Nationality Act which permits foreign men married to Thai women to apply for Thai citizenship without PR for the first time. However, since men are regarded as bread winners in Thai society, the foreign husbands need to have a secure job in Thailand and meet income and tax requirements (for three full years, just like PR). The citizenship process is very slow and also lacking in transparency but unlike PR, it has not ground to a halt. A small number of people are approved every year and applications can be submitted on any working day. I believe Purachai also blocked and threw out citizenship applications while he was interior minister. Fortunately for him and his family they were treated with a lot more consideration and fairness when they were living and studying in New Zealand. It is amazing how a squeaky clean, thrifty person can stretch savings from being a policeman, academic and government minister to pay for several overseas educations and landed property abroad. Perhaps there is much he can contribute in terms of economic management, if he ever becomes PM!

[Gillespie]

"Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand’s expatriate community."

Who says?

[Arkady]

I can't understand why anyone wants to pay a lot of money and go through all the hassle to get Permanent residence. You still have to go to immigration once a year to get a re-entry permit which is only valid for one year. About 12 years ago, mine was cancelled because I could not get back to Thailand in time. I could have applied for a new one, instead I opted for a retirement visa which I have had since then. Getting a yearly extension for my retirement visa is far less hassle than going to the Income Tax department every year to submit an income tax return which obligatory for permanent residents. I had to get papers to prove that I had paid tax on my overseas income and submit to many questions and fill in forms etc.

Nowadays it seems that getting a retirement visa and re-entry takes only a few minutes. If you can afford to get a permanent residence, instead you could get a lawyer to get your retirement visa renewed and re-entry permit without going to immigration. He can do your 90 day reporting as well.

If you are not eligible for a retirement visa then you could apply for permanent residence.

That may be a waste of money because in time to come when many retirees get very old the law is bound to change for humanitarian reasons. I am sure they will be able to get long term retirement visas eventually.

There is no special requirement for PRs to file a tax return. They are subject to the same rule as every one else, i.e. they have to file a tax return, if they have income (excluding bank interest and stock dividends which are taxed at source) of over about B15,000 a month. I stopped work for a while as a PR and didn't file a tax return. Then I went back to work and filed tax returns again with no questions from the Revenue Dept about what happened in between. There is also no requirement to submit documents about income earned overseas. Again the rule is the same for every one whether Thai, PR or temporary foreign resident. If you have income from overseas which is remitted to Thailand within 12 months of being earned, you must declare that on your Thai return. Otherwise they couldn't care less about offshore income and no politician worth his salt is ever going to want to change that, due to the billions salted away offshore by politicians and civil servants. The bureaucracy involved in endorsing your residency book is minimal and is only necessary if you want to travel overseas. The alien book only needs endorsement every 5 years which is also very simple. It is a huge advantage to know you have life long visa and that goal posts cannot be changed on you at the drop of a hat, as is the case with retirement visas. Anyway, it is not a case of whether it is worth the hassle and cost of applying for PR. PR at the present time is simply not available, period.

I can't foresee a time when foreign retirees are going to be given any type of long term visa for humanitarian reasons or why the Thai government should feel obliged to grant that. As the pile of welfare handouts grows in Thailand, I think it is more likely that they will guard long term residence rights more jealously. The government thinking is that retirees who marry Thais should think carefully about whether they have enough money to support themselves (including medical costs) and their families before settling in Thailand. If the answer is no, they should logically apply for residence for their Thai families in their home countries and go back to be a burden on the state there, not in Thailand. I can, however, foresee a time when long term retirement visas will be granted to people who can meet certain financial criteria, as in Malaysia, regardless as to whether they have Thai families or not. Whether this seems fair or not doesn't make much difference. Thailand is a country with a relatively small economy and even smaller tax based compared to its population and what little tax is collected is systematically misused or simply looted by those in power. It doesn't have enough money to pay for the benefits it has already committed to for its own citizens and has nil ability to cater for insolvent foreign retirees who are already very fortunate in being able to one year visas on extremely easy terms without even having to submit a clean criminal record or have medical insurance.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Arkady

[scotbeve]

"Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand’s expatriate community."

Who says?

The Phuket Gazette of course!!!

[zthyadat]

"Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand's expatriate community."

Not sure that's saying much. Most foreigners I've seen working here are pretty incompetent (I doubt anyone would employ them in the West, which I suppose is why they are here) and anyone retired here presumably doesnt need to bother about permanent residency anyway.

Maybe there's some other group of sparkling expats that I have yet to encounter.

Yeah, but it might require leaving the saloon occasionally.

[thedivezone]

"Permanent residency applicants, many of them from Phuket, represent the best and brightest of Thailand’s expatriate community."

Who says?

The Phuket Gazette of course!!!

The Best and Brightest of Thailands english language publications. . . .

Not!

[thedivezone]

Oh, . . . and by the way , Purachai most be one of Thailand's best and brightest politicians!

[Darrel]

I bet your first on everyone's list of 'must have' dinner guests

Haha. One of the things I came here to avoid is dinner parties and of course they are an integral part of the equally dull social ladder that was previously recommended.

(And it's "you're" not "your".)

[Darrel]

In fact, I am in Australia just now and am amazed at the incompetent fools I run into here every single day. Especially those running the country and local governments.

I would agree with you about them, but I wasn't actually drawing any comparisons between those who are here and those who stayed behind. It was the notion of a select group of Phuket expatriate intelligentsia that caught my attention, compared to the ones that I have come across.

no insult intended.

No problem. Plenty of others here do intend their insults, none of which will be causing me to lose any sleep at all.

[antony77]

If you never go abroad then you don't need a re-entry permit but I would think the vast majority of PR holders would make at least one trip abroad each year.

I was not referring to Income tax clearance which was done away with a long time ago. As a resident of Thailand you do have to pay tax and submit tax form declaring your income. If you have not being doing this you might get into trouble,

You still have to go to immigration once a year to get a re-entry permit which is only valid for one year.

Not exactly correct.

Only if you leave Thailand do you have to apply for a Re-entry Permit, this is valid for Re-entry for 12 months from the date of issue.

I have not left Thailand for more than 3 years and I have had no contact with any Government Department - not even to Report to the local Police every 90 days.

About 12 years ago, mine was cancelled because I could not get back to Thailand in time.

Maybe - but see above.

If you had Permanent Residence status, only if you did not return to Thailand within 12 months of your exit would that be voided.

Getting a yearly extension for my retirement visa is far less hassle than going to the Income Tax department every year to submit an Income Tax return which obligatory for permanent residents. I had to get papers to prove that I had paid tax on my overseas income and submit to many questions and fill in forms etc.

Wrong.

The requirement to obtain a Tax Clearance Certificate before leaving Thailand was abolished by the Anand Panyarachun Government – which must be at least 10 years ago now.

And in any case it did not apply only to Foreigners with Permanent Residence, it applied to anyone who had been in the Country for (if I remember correctly) more than 90 Days.

I admit it was a total pain and inconvenience – and irritating! - to have to submit to an interview by a junior Government Official and answer questions about my Income and Expenditure in order to obtain this Tax Clearance - and that was the main reason why I considered applying for Thai Citizenship at that time.

Once the Tax Clearance was no longer needed I lost all interest in obtaining Thai Citizenship.

All that said, there are few reasons I could think of today to justify the current expense of acquiring Permanent Residence status unless the end goal was full Thai Citizenship.

Patrick

[up2you2]

The islands absolutely awash with long term expatriates, lifers some of them, all living on whim and a prayer of annual visa extensions, to the degree that during the low season perhaps there's more visalites than tourists.

The vast majourity will spend twenty, thirty perhaps even forty years on a temporary extension in a land where they have established a physical, emotional, and financial attachment and commitment.

So long that the notorious British Inland Revenue, might even concede that they had changed their domicile of birth to that of a domicile of choice.

A couple of years ago I made some enquires from the head of the Immigration Department in Phuket town, casually inquiring if they could provide me with some statistics, regarding how many applicants had actually been granted residency and Thai nationality during the past year. They were not forthcoming, or to put it all into context how many of them have ever been declared in the Phuket Gazette.

A combination of factors should be established over a period of time, to meet some kind of default criteria whereby ones rank could be elevated from a paying guest to that of an officially welcomed resident.

A lot of us have come here to retire, and lets be perfectly honest about this, to die to.

We have brought our chattels and our wealth, and even for those that have requested to be buried, it's hardly as if they are going to take their plot with them.

Anybody who has spent the last ten years here, kept their nose clean, has a financially secure back ground, invested in the country through land or a business, supports a family, should automatically be considered.