Topless Sunbathing At A Condo Pool

[harrry]

What surprises me with this post is who it is from and the actions the OP took. Yes, toplessis generally not appropriate in Thailand especially among the older or rural populace however as the OP is aware is acceptible to varying degrees in many countries. It may or may not be ignorence in the case of this girl gowever although I would understand Eek speaking to her and telling her the local custom I think reporting her was not warranted.

It is interesting that prior to the 1945 toppless was acceptible in Thailand and was changed by laws to make the country more European. Even n the 1980s topless was still how married women above child bearing age dressed in thai villages.

I fail to see how eek could really have been offended.

[ronz28]

Its just inappropriate behavior and she must know better.. Perhaps she is advertising for customers in public places. Someone should tell her she needs a work permit for that and she probably won't get one so its best to coverup. I guess building management/security is just sleeping in a chair somewhere but they tell her to coverup and leave.

[eek]

I fail to see how eek could really have been offended.

I wasnt offended harrry. It was just unexpected. I wasnt at the poolside, i saw from my balcony. If i had been at the poolside, yes i would have mentioned to her in a polite way. I didnt pick up the phone and "report" her. I saw her, saw the kids around the pool, left it, then when i thought about it decided i best mention to the lobby, then they can decide if its best to send someone to have a quiet word or not.

There is no particular right or wrong here, too many variables. On the one hand, yes, people should do what they like. But, i personally think it should be with respect to their surroundings. If i had said to her directly, had i been near her, maybe she would just think im being too personal and its none of my business. Having a member of staff politely ask her, may make her realise that its an "offical" take on what is appropriate dress at a conservative family condo poolside, rather than one persons opinion.

..and yes, had it been a Thai girl, i wouldnt have felt the same sense of ..duty..(for want of a better word). Call me biased, but i felt more inclined to do something being a western female, because of how other western females in Thailands conduct reflects us. Im not so anal about other western women that its something i would ever dwell on or think much about. I also think that Thai are not dumb and can differentiate, but still, it was something i felt somehow my duty (dont ask me why..i just did) to mention.

[newbie001]

1945 toppless was acceptible in Thailand and was changed by laws to make the country more European. Even n the 1980s"

Way to pull numbers out of your bum harry. Since King Rama 4 is the one that made the decree and his death was slightly before 1945, I think that you need to re-read some history books. I will concur that it some villages it may have been accepted but back then a village was like a private area not a public venue.

[harrry]

1945 toppless was acceptible in Thailand and was changed by laws to make the country more European. Even n the 1980s"

Way to pull numbers out of your bum harry. Since King Rama 4 is the one that made the decree and his death was slightly before 1945, I think that you need to re-read some history books. I will concur that it some villages it may have been accepted but back then a village was like a private area not a public venue.

Well your numbers come out of your bum too. Rama 4s decree wqas confined to the wearing of a shirt in Royal audences. It was FieldMarshal Plaek Pibulsonggram who is responsible for the law relating to clothing.

You may like to read:

http://www.thaiprakan.com/thaiwisdom/poompunya/book2/images/eng144_145.pdf

if you are really interested in Thai history...but I somehow doubt you will.

Edited April 6, 2011 by harrry

[ollylama]

what an udder boob she is not to give a hoot. keep us abreast of this sensitive matter.

[ChiangMaiFun]

My friend suggested i should have shouted out in a really deep loud voice "Hey baby, nice t*ts!" Haha!! If i had had the courage, i wonder if she would have been offended Ah well, sorry to be a spoil sport for the oglers. So sorry boys!

you are right... and a quite word to the manager would be appropriate

[yesterday]

She was a pretty girl. But she should be more aware. Couple of young kids swimming and Thai girls in those little granny kinda costumes with the skirts attached. Its pretty clueless imo. Balconies overlooking the pool. I wasnt in the pool area, just looked over my balcony...and whether i did the right thing or not, decided to call reception and let them know. No idea if anyone went to her, she was gone when i looked out some time later. I personally thought it was inappropriate. Dont mean to come over as being a prude. I think its the wrong setting to be so liberal.

answer your question,

yes you are being a prude.

[ChangMaiSausage]

Show us ya t*ts

[appropriate]

Good for her.

Thais getting to experience a culture beyond their own is a good thing.

[Priceless]

I think the fundamental question boils down to this:

When we are visiting or living in a country other than our own, should

1/ We adapt to the customs, traditions and culture of the host country

OR

2/ The host country adapt to our customs, traditions and culture?

I for one am, and have always been, in favour of alternative 1/

/ Priceless

[bridge]

A topless farang girl lounging by the pool in Thailand - absolutely outrageous. What would the locals think??

Thailand is not the place for this kind of behavior.

[bifftastic]

It's likely that the lady in question, by the pool, didn't realise she was doing something that isn't the norm in Thailand. I don't think the OP was expressing any prudish sentiments at all. For me, I wouldn't particularly approve or disapprove of such behaviour. But when in a country where it's not done, I think I would have mentioned it too. I'm not sure how, probably would have asked one of the staff to go and have a quiet word.

As for the opinion of colonial westerners 100+ years ago, there was much about it that was wrong on so many levels. It really has nothing to do with the question in hand though

[lbjcb]

Thai's can take care of themself's just fine.

Time to start a Condo Neighborhood Watch

[appropriate]

When in Rome etc etc etc

Yes, she should have gotten out some ping pong balls and slipped that thong off.

[eek]

ho hum

Well..good to read different perspectives. Tnx.

[NancyL]

Eek, I love this topic. I'm going to suggest my Thai teacher use it for one of our Thai writing assignments. Normally she asks us to write three or four sentences in response to a hypothetical situation that could be common -- questions like "if you have been waiting for a long time at the immigration office and they still haven't called your name, what would you do and what would you say". Or "if you ordered somtam without shrimp and the vendor gave you somtam with shrimp what would you say and what would you do." Or "If you want to visit your boss who is a patient in the hospital what would you bring and what would you say?" Sometimes the teacher's views of the "correct" answers can be surprising and I've had fun in sharing these questions with some of our Thai friends, too, to get their perspective. While intended as writing exercises, these hypothetical situations also are cultural education.

So here's my proposed question "If you look out of your condo window and notice a woman sunbathing without a top at the condo pool while children are swimming in the pool, what would you do and what would you say?"

Edited April 6, 2011 by NancyL

[Nuff Said]

#1 the OP is a she not a he & a very polite one at that

#2 She never gave the impression she was taking offense on behalf of Thai's. She merely asked an opinion of others.

1. The gender of the OP makes no difference. However, on this subject, her profile states 'not telling', so no apologies on that one.

2. In post 8 of this thread, the OP contradicts the above as she said 'I wasnt in the pool area, just looked over my balcony...and whether i did the right thing or not, decided to call reception and let them know.'

The last few words say it all. Reporting the matter to reception implies taking offence on behalf of others, as the OP seems to have made it clear that she wasn't personally offended, but thought others may be.

[orang37]

I think the fundamental question boils down to this:

When we are visiting or living in a country other than our own, should

1/ We adapt to the customs, traditions and culture of the host country

OR

2/ The host country adapt to our customs, traditions and culture?

I for one am, and have always been, in favour of alternative 1/

/ Priceless

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Priceless,

Well, we're in the boat with you on alternative #1, completely, Khrup.

But, the issue here seems to be, in our humble opinion, the question of what a person (from another culture) does, or believes they should do, or believes they should not do, when they observe behavior by another "outsider" that, in their minds, is clear evidence of someone else violating what they know, and/or feel, are the norms, mores, even laws, etc., of the culture they, themselves, are in, as guests, or tourists, or long-time residents.

Our conclusion is that we could not possibly give advice to anyone else on the example provided here: because we feel that it is an individual's moral responsibility to reach their own conclusions, and act (or not act) on their values.

What's interesting about this particular example, however, is that, when we think about "Thai culture," specifically, it does seem to us that an important component of the norms, particularly for public behavior, is to not get involved in something disturbing to you, or "sticky," unless it's directly impinging on you, is "right in your face," to avoid conflict at all costs, get away from it: perhaps saying, or thinking, "mai phen rai" ? Or, perhaps, thinking that person doing the deviant behavior is going to get in a sh*t load of trouble, and thinking or saying, "som naam na," or "wah tae khau, I-nao pen eng" ?

Once, up on Doi Suthep, we made the mistake of (we thought very respectfully and gently) telling a male farang who had climbed up, with his shoes on, on a pediment of the outside of the temple to pose for a photograph by his female partner, that we thought he might want to know that Thais would consider putting the feet (particularly with shoes on) on a Temple something disrespectful. We were then verbally assaulted by both of the couple, and at one point, actually thought the male farang was going to start a fight with us (well, they were French) That incident, perhaps, left us with mixed feelings about such interventions. A Thai friend, who happens to be a scholar of Thai history, we discussed this incident with, had a definite opinion that we were "wrong" to interject ourselves in this case: in his opinion (direct words): "This is for Thai people, to decide what is respectful (naptue), or not."

best, ~o:37;

Edited April 6, 2011 by orang37

[uptheos]

That incident, perhaps, left us with mixed feelings about such interventions. A Thai friend, who happens to be a scholar of Thai history, we discussed this incident with, had a definite opinion that we were "wrong" to interject ourselves in this case: in his opinion (direct words): "This is for Thai people, to decide what is respectful (naptue), or not."

best, ~o:37;

We should always be aware of our behaviour towards other cultures. However, I do believe if people feel offended sufficiently they will act. Sometimes, I don't think we give Thai's their due and believe they won't deal with a situation if they feel offended, but they do.

Edited April 6, 2011 by uptheos

[LaoPo]

She was a pretty girl. But she should be more aware. Couple of young kids swimming and Thai girls in those little granny kinda costumes with the skirts attached. Its pretty clueless imo. Balconies overlooking the pool. I wasnt in the pool area, just looked over my balcony...and whether i did the right thing or not, decided to call reception and let them know. No idea if anyone went to her, she was gone when i looked out some time later. I personally thought it was inappropriate. Dont mean to come over as being a prude. I think its the wrong setting to be so liberal.

Good thing you did.

I suppose the girl just arrived in Thailand and didn't know; she won't do it again.

A different story though than the (beautiful) Farang girl I saw on the beach on Koh Samet some years ago, she walked from the bungalow outlet she staid in (I suppose) start undressing...completely naked...totally nude ..and sat down (without a towel under her bum in a (rent) beach chair.

The Thai woman, renting the chairs, went beserk and started talking to her in a loud voice but the girl totally ignored her; finally she stepped out of the chair and was lying on her beach towel a meter away from the beach chair; she went swimming later, still nude.

everybody was totally in shock and nobody dared to approach her; the moment I stood up and walked to her to inform her about Thai customs and the no-no situation, she stood up as well and walked back to the palm trees, wrapping her body in a sarong.

Amazing Thailand.

LaoPo

[Sparkles]

She was a pretty girl. But she should be more aware. Couple of young kids swimming and Thai girls in those little granny kinda costumes with the skirts attached. Its pretty clueless imo. Balconies overlooking the pool. I wasnt in the pool area, just looked over my balcony...and whether i did the right thing or not, decided to call reception and let them know. No idea if anyone went to her, she was gone when i looked out some time later. I personally thought it was inappropriate. Dont mean to come over as being a prude. I think its the wrong setting to be so liberal.

Good thing you did.

I suppose the girl just arrived in Thailand and didn't know; she won't do it again.

A different story though than the (beautiful) Farang girl I saw on the beach on Koh Samet some years ago, she walked from the bungalow outlet she staid in (I suppose) start undressing...completely naked...totally nude ..and sat down (without a towel under her bum in a (rent) beach chair.

The Thai woman, renting the chairs, went beserk and started talking to her in a loud voice but the girl totally ignored her; finally she stepped out of the chair and was lying on her beach towel a meter away from the beach chair; she went swimming later, still nude.

everybody was totally in shock and nobody dared to approach her; the moment I stood up and walked to her to inform her about Thai customs and the no-no situation, she stood up as well and walked back to the palm trees, wrapping her body in a sarong.

Amazing Thailand.

LaoPo

Is that it ,are you going to leave us in suspense ? what happened next !!! This thread has legs and you haven't even mentioned them....yet !

[orang37]

We should always be aware of our behaviour towards other cultures. However, I do believe if people feel offended sufficiently they will act. Sometimes, I don't think we give Thai's their due and believe they won't deal with a situation if they feel offended, but they do.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun UpTheos,

We hope nothing in our response gave you any sense we were not "giving Thais their due."

There are certain cultural institutions here which any public act of disrespect towards (even any form of representation of them) would trigger instant, even violent reactions, from Thai people: we're sure you know what they are, and they are, of course, the very institutions we do not speak about, for good reasons, here on this forum.

But, what is interesting in the OP's scenario, here, to us, is the fact that the situation described is in a kind of murky-mores border-zone in terms of contemporary western norms, particularly if we imagine the woman sunbathing topless had no sense she was doing something "deviant." Maybe she grew up in Rio, or St. Tropez, and nobody told her she had to read "Lonely Planet" ?

To our minds, the question: "if no Thais actually saw her sunbathing topless, or, every Thai who actually saw her sunbathing topless was not offended: was her behavior offensive to Thais ?" then becomes even more interesting, almost metaphysical (even leaving out the question of whether farangs viewing her behavior found it offensive because of their own religion, moral codes, etc., without reference to Thailand at all).

And, we think the "sticky" questions posed, by scenarios like this, have no one-size-fits-all answer, no handy moral conundrum they can be hung-out on until all the "wrinkles are gone," which makes them more compelling to think about: in our minds that "creates" awareness, which is why we appreciate this topic being raised.

best, ~o37;

[Thakkar]

I think the fundamental question boils down to this:

When we are visiting or living in a country other than our own, should

1/ We adapt to the customs, traditions and culture of the host country

OR

2/ The host country adapt to our customs, traditions and culture?

I for one am, and have always been, in favour of alternative 1/

/ Priceless

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Priceless,

Well, we're in the boat with you on alternative #1, completely, Khrup.

But, the issue here seems to be, in our humble opinion, the question of what a person (from another culture) does, or believes they should do, or believes they should not do, when they observe behavior by another "outsider" that, in their minds, is clear evidence of someone else violating what they know, and/or feel, are the norms, mores, even laws, etc., of the culture they, themselves, are in, as guests, or tourists, or long-time residents.

Our conclusion is that we could not possibly give advice to anyone else on the example provided here: because we feel that it is an individual's moral responsibility to reach their own conclusions, and act (or not act) on their values.

What's interesting about this particular example, however, is that, when we think about "Thai culture," specifically, it does seem to us that an important component of the norms, particularly for public behavior, is to not get involved in something disturbing to you, or "sticky," unless it's directly impinging on you, is "right in your face," to avoid conflict at all costs, get away from it: perhaps saying, or thinking, "mai phen rai" ? Or, perhaps, thinking that person doing the deviant behavior is going to get in a sh*t load of trouble, and thinking or saying, "som naam na," or "wah tae khau, I-nao pen eng" ?

Once, up on Doi Suthep, we made the mistake of (we thought very respectfully and gently) telling a male farang who had climbed up, with his shoes on, on a pediment of the outside of the temple to pose for a photograph by his female partner, that we thought he might want to know that Thais would consider putting the feet (particularly with shoes on) on a Temple something disrespectful. We were then verbally assaulted by both of the couple, and at one point, actually thought the male farang was going to start a fight with us (well, they were French) That incident, perhaps, left us with mixed feelings about such interventions. A Thai friend, who happens to be a scholar of Thai history, we discussed this incident with, had a definite opinion that we were "wrong" to interject ourselves in this case: in his opinion (direct words): "This is for Thai people, to decide what is respectful (naptue), or not."

best, ~o:37;

I have to go with this as the most nuanced and practical advice.

I am particularly persuaded by "...an important component of the norms [in Thai culture], particularly for public behavior, is to not get involved in something disturbing to you, or "sticky," unless it's directly impinging on you..." as far as this particular incident is concerned.

--

The succinct advice of Khun Appropriate, while inappropriate, is compelling.

[uptheos]

We should always be aware of our behaviour towards other cultures. However, I do believe if people feel offended sufficiently they will act. Sometimes, I don't think we give Thai's their due and believe they won't deal with a situation if they feel offended, but they do.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun UpTheos,

We hope nothing in our response gave you any sense we were not "giving Thais their due."

There are certain cultural institutions here which any public act of disrespect towards (even any form of representation of them) would trigger instant, even violent reactions, from Thai people: we're sure you know what they are, and they are, of course, the very institutions we do not speak about, for good reasons, here on this forum.

But, what is interesting in the OP's scenario, here, to us, is the fact that the situation described is in a kind of murky-mores border-zone in terms of contemporary western norms, particularly if we imagine the woman sunbathing topless had no sense she was doing something "deviant." Maybe she grew up in Rio, or St. Tropez, and nobody told her she had to read "Lonely Planet" ?

To our minds, the question: "if no Thais actually saw her sunbathing topless, or, every Thai who actually saw her sunbathing topless was not offended: was her behavior offensive to Thais ?" then becomes even more interesting, almost metaphysical (even leaving out the question of whether farangs viewing her behavior found it offensive because of their own religion, moral codes, etc., without reference to Thailand at all).

And, we think the "sticky" questions posed, by scenarios like this, have no one-size-fits-all answer, no handy moral conundrum they can be hung-out on until all the "wrinkles are gone," which makes them more compelling to think about: in our minds that "creates" awareness, which is why we appreciate this topic being raised.

best, ~o37;

No nothing at all.

As you quite rightly indicated, Thai's can react quite strongly to certain acts of disrespect.

Regarding going topless; most of us are aware that it's something that should not really be done in this country. But so is wearing shorts at immigration, but no one really seems offended if you do. Do we get embarrassed because of what we think Thai's are feeling or what we feel they should be feeling? Sometimes I doubt if they are feeling violated at all and I would hazard a guess that if you asked Mr average Thai what he would do if he saw a beautiful farang girl bathing topless, the answer would be get a few mates ASAP and get the camera phones out at the double. Thai girls might just gawp, giggle and actually admire the beautiful farang and probably wonder why in heaven's name she wants to make her lovely white breasts brown? More mature ladies might feel 'something' but probably just walk away putting it down to 'farang culture'. I'm really not convinced that many Thai's would actually feel anything significant at all, that's left to other farang's to do the feeling on their behalf.

[Tywais]

An inappropriate comment and a response to it in Thai language has been removed.

[metisdead]

Closed at OP's request.