Group Alleges Thai Soldiers Kill Cambodian Loggers

[webfact]

Group alleges Thai soldiers kill Cambodian loggers

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

A Cambodian nongovernment organisation claims that at least 10 Cambodian civilians had been shot dead while hunting for food or logging in the forested mountains on the ThaiCambodian boฌder last year and early this year.

Executive director of the Cambodian Centre for Human Rights (CCHR) Ouch Leng and humanrights activist Chan Soveth came up with a report, obtained by The Nation, saying there were 11 such cases during the 20102011 period and more allegedly took place earlier. Army spokesman Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd said the Army was not aware of the cases, but added clashes with illegal loggers along the border were possible if there was resistance.

"We have no reports - but both Thai and Cambodian armies agree that [illegal logging] needs attention. Precious wood should be protected from Thai or Khmer loggers. Our protocol [when an encounter takes place] is to identify ourselves, unless they fire at us first. We have no intention to kill anyone but if they shoot back there is no other choice," he explained.

Meanwhile, the CCHR report lists names, time and sites of the killings and illustrates accounts contrary to the Thai army.

According to the report, on January 10, Cambodian men Chem Socheat, 34, and Oeurn Leng, 19, were killed for "trespassing into Thailand" along with 16 other villagers.

"At Prolean Rusey or Prolean Meum in Si Sa Ket province in Thailand, Chen Socheat and Oeurn Leng were shot by Thai soldiers in black uniforms. (Thai soldiers burned their corpses in Thailand.) Oeurng Ol, father of Oeurn Leng who witnessed his son being killed by Thai soldiers, said his son was first hit in the right rib, which made him turn around and fall down. Oeurng Ol was also injured during the incident but he managed to hide."

Some of the cases compiled were first reported by Cambodian news media, such as the incident on March 17 this year. The Koh Sante Pheap daily in its March 1920 edition alleged three Cambodians had been killed by a landmine placed by Thai soldiers after they entered Thailand for logging in Dangrek Mountain at the point of border topographic demarcation No 2593.

The report claimed the three men died after they pulled a tree down and came in contact with a mine "which was set up by Thai soldiers and detonated".

-- The Nation 2011-04-13

[geriatrickid]

I'll make a note to feel bad for the death of the poachers, time permitting.

[asiawatcher]

It takes a year to report 11 deaths and of course, only at the hands of Thai soldiers...

[wilgoster]

"I'll make a note to feel bad for the death of the poachers, time permitting."

Wow, Grab a side for side's sake, but always fan the flames. There must be another way to feel important, but on the side of sanity.

[Oberkommando]

I wonder what kind of "resistance" the Cambodian loggers put up that were found to be burned alive by the Thai army recently?

Thai Army has a long history of abuses along the border against the Cambodian people. Lest we forget the Preah Vihear Massacre where Cambodian civilians were forced back over cliffs and over minefields by the Thai military, and the thousands of systematic abuses conducted by the Thai Army against Cambodian civilians and refugees fleeing the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese invasion including; rape, theft, torture and murders.

Then of course Thailand allied itself with Pol Pot, provided him safe haven in Trat province under protection of Thai military special forces then even took part in raids with Khmer Rouge cadres against the Vietnamese that had ousted the evil scourge. All this with American blessing of course as they were pushing for the Khmer Rouge to be recognised as the official Cambodian government in the UN.

It takes a year to report 11 deaths and of course, only at the hands of Thai soldiers...

Hardly, that is the total for the year but I would presume there are more that haven't been reported.

One of the problems of having a military that is not answerable to the government and is a law unto itself unfortunately.

It is a fact that these atrocities happen. You rarely hear of Cambodian military atrocities against Thais however, not to say that it doesn't happen but it is a much rarer occurrence.

[Oberkommando]

Phorn Sarith, a 37-year-old Cambodian logger, died when Thai soldiers reportedly fired indiscriminately on 25 loggers working in the Dangrek mountains in Oddar Meanchey, a Cambodian province on the Thai-Cambodian border, last Saturday.

http://mediakh.net/g...bodian-loggers/

Two Cambodian citizens logging illegally in Thailand have been shot dead by Thai troops and a third is missing, national media reported Wednesday.The two dead men were in a party of 26 who crossed the border on January 10 in Oddar Meanchey province in north-west Cambodia, the Cambodia Daily newspaper quoted a senior army source as saying. It was the latest in a series of shootings in the past four months in which Thai troops were accused of shooting Cambodians logging illegally and brings the number of dead to at least four.

http://www.monstersa...border-incident

The Foreign Ministry denies Thai soldiers shot and burned alive a Cambodian teenager for cutting down trees illegally on the border.

Read more: http://www.khmerarti...l#ixzz1JNZJxWb0

One Cambodian man was killed and another wounded after they were caught logging illegally across the border in Thailand, officials said Sunday, the latest in a spate of such shootings by Thai security forces.

http://www.internetfreedom.ws/node/19

Etc, etc, etc.

[tomross46]

Cambodian loggers should not be in Thailand, and should not have AK47's.

[featography]

Cambodian loggers should not be in Thailand, and should not have AK47's.

How else you gonna mow those trees down?!?!?

[rubl]

I wonder what kind of "resistance" the Cambodian loggers put up that were found to be burned alive by the Thai army recently?

... end removed

The OP says "(Thai soldiers burned their corpses in Thailand.)". No suggestion of 'burned alive', unless you have some proof

[oldsailor35]

Phorn Sarith, a 37-year-old Cambodian logger, died when Thai soldiers reportedly fired indiscriminately on 25 loggers working in the Dangrek mountains in Oddar Meanchey, a Cambodian province on the Thai-Cambodian border, last Saturday.

http://mediakh.net/g...bodian-loggers/

Two Cambodian citizens logging illegally in Thailand have been shot dead by Thai troops and a third is missing, national media reported Wednesday.The two dead men were in a party of 26 who crossed the border on January 10 in Oddar Meanchey province in north-west Cambodia, the Cambodia Daily newspaper quoted a senior army source as saying. It was the latest in a series of shootings in the past four months in which Thai troops were accused of shooting Cambodians logging illegally and brings the number of dead to at least four.

http://www.monstersa...border-incident

The Foreign Ministry denies Thai soldiers shot and burned alive a Cambodian teenager for cutting down trees illegally on the border.

Read more: http://www.khmerarti...l#ixzz1JNZJxWb0

One Cambodian man was killed and another wounded after they were caught logging illegally across the border in Thailand, officials said Sunday, the latest in a spate of such shootings by Thai security forces.

http://www.internetfreedom.ws/node/19

Etc, etc, etc.

Unarmed civilians shot and killed by brave Thai soldiers.........mmmmmm think i have heard of something like this on more than one occaision. But of course, cowards will admit to nothing !

[rubl]

Unarmed civilians shot and killed by brave Thai soldiers.........mmmmmm think i have heard of something like this on more than one occaision. But of course, cowards will admit to nothing !

Interestingly the articles refer to 'alleged' killings (one article even from 2009). Mind you with the ongoing skirmishes along the Thai/Cambodian border in and near SiSaKet, both countries have let fly a few 'allegations'. mostly just before or after planned rallies, border clashes, etc. There may be an element of truth, but I'm afraid a lot can be classified as propaganda (on both sides).

[geriatrickid]

"I'll make a note to feel bad for the death of the poachers, time permitting."

Wow, Grab a side for side's sake, but always fan the flames. There must be another way to feel important, but on the side of sanity.

Flames? No. In this case, there was no arson and illegal burning of vegetation to flush out animals to be captured or killed. Sanity does not have a "side" as it is a state of mind. However, you do raise a good point as it must unhinge the people and the organizations that spend so much money and invest considerable resources in the protection of the forests and wildlife targeted by poachers. I can understand how one's emotional state would be impacted by the sight of skinned or disembowled animals sacrificed for their fur or geniatlia. Did you know that these "loggers" also like to set fires? Ever hear the tortured screams of people and the animals caught in a fire? It stays with you.

So what brings you to Thai visa and your 4th post ? Does my stance on poachers upset your tender sensibilities? Perhaps if you have dealt with some of these people you will understand that they are neither caring, nor feeling. They don't care about such niceties as respect for life or the conservation of protected spaces. If these guys were carrying AK47s do you think it was for peaceful purposes, you know like spreading love? Or maybe, the intent to was to use those guns to kill people? Now I don't know about you, but if someone is carrying a lethal weapon and engaged in a criminal activity, that would necessitate dealing with them accordingly. Would you go up to them and say, hi, there, please stop your illegal activities. What do you think their response would be?

I did say I would show sentimental emotions for these chaps, time permitting. See, I am compassionate. What's your concern? Did you think these guys were on a picnic and nature observation walk? Illegal logging is a criminal activity that causes the destruction of the local habitat, robs legitimate people of their livelihood and food, and is undertaken by people that have murdered those that have tried to stop them.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Scott

[Oberkommando]

I wonder what kind of "resistance" the Cambodian loggers put up that were found to be burned alive by the Thai army recently?

... end removed

The OP says "(Thai soldiers burned their corpses in Thailand.)". No suggestion of 'burned alive', unless you have some proof

Shocking Claims: Logger Burned Alive in Thailand

Cambodia's Deputy Foreign Minister is calling on Thailand to investigate claims that a young Khmer logger was arrested, shot, and killed by Thai security forces on Cambodian soil.

[Ouch Borith, Cambodian Deputy Foreign Minister]:

"There are some people who commit barbaric acts against humanity, and the government of Thailand must take measures to investigate these acts and bring the people to justice. This is our, the Cambodian government's, utmost request."

Thai security forces are accused of opening fire on a group of young Cambodian villagers while they were cutting down trees illegally on the northern border of Cambodia.

One of the villagers was allegedly caught by the Thai forces and then burned alive.

The Cambodian government has yet to receive a response from the Thai government.

[Oberkommando]

Interestingly the articles refer to 'alleged' killings (one article even from 2009). Mind you with the ongoing skirmishes along the Thai/Cambodian border in and near SiSaKet, both countries have let fly a few 'allegations'. mostly just before or after planned rallies, border clashes, etc. There may be an element of truth, but I'm afraid a lot can be classified as propaganda (on both sides).

Nonsense.

Why would an NGO and human rights activists be interested in propaganda?

Meanwhile, the CCHR report lists names, times and sites of the killings

Seems they have some pretty conclusive evidence.

[rubl]

I wonder what kind of "resistance" the Cambodian loggers put up that were found to be burned alive by the Thai army recently?

... end removed

The OP says "(Thai soldiers burned their corpses in Thailand.)". No suggestion of 'burned alive', unless you have some proof

Shocking Claims: Logger Burned Alive in Thailand

Cambodia's Deputy Foreign Minister is calling on Thailand to investigate claims that a young Khmer logger was arrested, shot, and killed by Thai security forces on Cambodian soil.

[Ouch Borith, Cambodian Deputy Foreign Minister]:

"There are some people who commit barbaric acts against humanity, and the government of Thailand must take measures to investigate these acts and bring the people to justice. This is our, the Cambodian government's, utmost request."

Thai security forces are accused of opening fire on a group of young Cambodian villagers while they were cutting down trees illegally on the northern border of Cambodia.

One of the villagers was allegedly caught by the Thai forces and then burned alive.

The Cambodian government has yet to receive a response from the Thai government.

Shocking claims by Cambodian government in a tit-for-tat which started (again) in 2008 around the Preah Vihear Temple. Lots of propaganda, allegations, supposedly atrocities, etc., etc.

A link you gave before ( http://mediakh.net/government/thai-miltary-killing-cambodian-loggers/ )

says "Such cruel killing by the Thai military, which enjoys impunity, was seen in a number of incidents during the late 1970s and 1980s." That of course completely ignores any atrocities committed in Cambodia in that time frame.

[geriatrickid]

I think you will find that the NGOs and Thai conservationists that work very hard at trying to protect vital ecosystems, thereby ensuring local livelihoods, i.e. economic survival and that have been attacked and assaulted by illegal loggers in the past, won't be putting too much pressure on the Thai government to respond.

If atrocities occurred, then that is wrong and there is no excuse for that, but until one has a gun shoved in ones face or been shot at or been robbed, one cannot appreciate the response that can occur when people are confronted by illegal loggers/poachers.

I am usually quite tough on the thai government when it comes to these types of abuses, but there are two sides to these stories.

If these were the typical poachers, the greeting given the Thais was not one of oh hello let's have a cup of tea and discuss the natural flora. Poachers shoot first or in some cases knife first before such pleasantries are exchanged.

[Oberkommando]

Shocking claims by Cambodian government in a tit-for-tat which started (again) in 2008 around the Preah Vihear Temple. Lots of propaganda, allegations, supposedly atrocities, etc., etc.

You should watch the video, there's footage of the blackened corpse.

[rubl]

Shocking claims by Cambodian government in a tit-for-tat which started (again) in 2008 around the Preah Vihear Temple. Lots of propaganda, allegations, supposedly atrocities, etc., etc.

You should watch the video, there's footage of the blackened corpse.

Please excuse me, but a 'blackened' corpse in a video clip ? Like the one made in CWT after the fire? Get real, old chap

[Oberkommando]

You are ignoring a very real problem here rubl, just as the Thai military are doing.

[rubl]

You are ignoring a very real problem here rubl, just as the Thai military are doing.

In the ongoing Thai-Cambodian conflict I'm trying to ignore most of the 'information' given out by either Thai or Cambodian military and officials. Having lived in Thailand since 1994 I may have a bit more empathy with the Thai side, just like you seem to have more empathy to the Cambodian side (you did mention a few times 'just coming back from PhnomPhen'). On the other hand I seldomly say anything against the Cambodian government and army, where as you almost continuously go on against the Thai side. Both our opinions, to which we are entitled. IMHO

[rogerdee123]

You are ignoring a very real problem here rubl, just as the Thai military are doing.

Most informed people know that logging operations in Cambodia are indeed controlled by the Cambodian military. And where is the Cambodian military mostly concentrated these daze ?

Besides these Cambodian organizations and Cambodian Govt officials speaking up (aka Thai Govt and Thai organizations like PAD) ...... What do the INGO's such as "Global Witness" say about these incidents ... oh I forgot they were kicked out of Cambodia for complaining about Cambodia Military logging the border areas among other places.

In regard to Thai/Cambodian issues I also don't believe much of anything either Govt (Thai or Cambodia) say. Both sides are pursuing idiotic strategies regarding their border problems.

[dananderson]

Tropical hardwoods are a high profit operation for those that buy this from from Cambo. Lonely Plant estimates that 10m of of TH gains 100 % plus profiot from their largest trading partner. Who stands to lose or profit most from this scenariou ?

[geriatrickid]

In respect to the alleged burnt body of the poacher, it is possible that the Thais attempted to respectfully dispose of the corpse following a shootout. Cremation is an acceptable practice in the region. There may have been insufficient fuel to properly cremate the poacher's body, assuming the Thais even burnt this person.

[applez]

You are ignoring a very real problem here rubl, just as the Thai military are doing.

In the ongoing Thai-Cambodian conflict I'm trying to ignore most of the 'information' given out by either Thai or Cambodian military and officials. Having lived in Thailand since 1994 I may have a bit more empathy with the Thai side, just like you seem to have more empathy to the Cambodian side (you did mention a few times 'just coming back from PhnomPhen'). On the other hand I seldomly say anything against the Cambodian government and army, where as you almost continuously go on against the Thai side. Both our opinions, to which we are entitled. IMHO

Rubl, there are many accounts from Khmer's, Lao's, Vietnamese and Burmese of thai military atrocities against fleeing refugees. Raping, Murdering, Stealing etc....and when you have a history for it then it sticks, being blind to the Rohingya incident much? I suggest you get out of the country more and get a better perspective you clearly have been around thai people too long and your brain has started to rot!

BUT you are indeed entitled to your opinions - ignorant it maybe.

[rubl]

You are ignoring a very real problem here rubl, just as the Thai military are doing.

In the ongoing Thai-Cambodian conflict I'm trying to ignore most of the 'information' given out by either Thai or Cambodian military and officials. Having lived in Thailand since 1994 I may have a bit more empathy with the Thai side, just like you seem to have more empathy to the Cambodian side (you did mention a few times 'just coming back from PhnomPhen'). On the other hand I seldomly say anything against the Cambodian government and army, where as you almost continuously go on against the Thai side. Both our opinions, to which we are entitled. IMHO

Rubl, there are many accounts from Khmer's, Lao's, Vietnamese and Burmese of thai military atrocities against fleeing refugees. Raping, Murdering, Stealing etc....and when you have a history for it then it sticks, being blind to the Rohingya incident much? I suggest you get out of the country more and get a better perspective you clearly have been around thai people too long and your brain has started to rot!

BUT you are indeed entitled to your opinions - ignorant it maybe.

Thank you.

Can we now go back to the OP which says "A Cambodian nongovernment organisation claims that at least 10 Cambodian civilians had been shot dead while hunting for food or logging in the forested mountains on the Thai-Cambodian border last year and early this year." Following would you be so kind as to re-read my post as quoted above? I'm just commenting on the Thai-Cambodian information stream and it's dubious character in the ongoing border-war. I'm not saying anything on other things, I'm even ignoring the recent atrocities in Northern Africa and the Arabian peninsular

Edited April 16, 2011 by rubl

[a51mas]

You are ignoring a very real problem here rubl, just as the Thai military are doing.

In the ongoing Thai-Cambodian conflict I'm trying to ignore most of the 'information' given out by either Thai or Cambodian military and officials. Having lived in Thailand since 1994 I may have a bit more empathy with the Thai side, just like you seem to have more empathy to the Cambodian side (you did mention a few times 'just coming back from PhnomPhen'). On the other hand I seldomly say anything against the Cambodian government and army, where as you almost continuously go on against the Thai side. Both our opinions, to which we are entitled. IMHO

Rubl, there are many accounts from Khmer's, Lao's, Vietnamese and Burmese of thai military atrocities against fleeing refugees. Raping, Murdering, Stealing etc....and when you have a history for it then it sticks, being blind to the Rohingya incident much? I suggest you get out of the country more and get a better perspective you clearly have been around thai people too long and your brain has started to rot!

BUT you are indeed entitled to your opinions - ignorant it maybe.

I just don't understand these Cambo's loonies, they are claiming without any proofs that Thailand is this and that, but every time they killed each other, the only place they ran to for safety was always Thailand and never Lao, Burma, Vietnam, China, Malaysia, Singapore......etc, why?

[cdnvic]

I suggest you get out of the country more and get a better perspective you clearly have been around thai people too long and your brain has started to rot!

BUT you are indeed entitled to your opinions - ignorant it maybe.

How people lose their posting rights.

[Oberkommando]

Most informed people know that logging operations in Cambodia are indeed controlled by the Cambodian military.

What has that got to do with the illegal logging operations? Are you accusing the Cambodian military of logging illegally on Thai land?

You will also be aware then that the Thais did deals with the Khmer Rouge for wood from Cambodia during the late 70's through the 80's and well into the 90's. Due to this, Thai leaders wanted a continuation of the conflict in Cambodia and it was one of the reasons they were fully supportive of the Khmer Rouge in their latter years.

I just don't understand these Cambo's loonies, they are claiming without any proofs that Thailand is this and that

There is plenty of proof of these crimes including names, dates and places.