Volunteer Work Without A Work Permit

[californiabeachboy]

I just returned from my third visit to Thailand, and I would like to go back for a few weeks or months, but I need something to do. I am a retired American lawyer and thought about volunteering, possibly to teach "legal English" or maybe something else. I realize you need a work permit even for volunteer work. My question is, what are the likely penalties for a violation? Not what the law says, but what are the realities?

If it is simply a fine, that is something I could live with. But if it is more serious. i.e. I am blacklisted from ever returning to Thailand, it is certainly not worth the risk.

Does anyone here have any first hand experience with being caught doing volunteer work without a work permit? If so, what did they do to you?

Thanks.

[terak69]

unfortunately (currently) work permit violations carry quite severe penalties including 'do not return' stamps & yes in theory you need wp for volunteering unless for government (ie Tourist Police) where it seems to be overlooked

[H2oDunc]

You will be arrested,fined and jailed in an immigration detention centre until you are deported and maybe, not sure but you could also be blacklisted from returning.

Actually getting arrested is the big IF here.

[Richard4849]

Don't do it.

[on-on]

Since you asked about the reality and not the letter of the law, the reality is that people do volunteer work here all the time for year upon year with no problems. Many wives of friends spend months volunteering up in the North for example while other people I know perform very highly visible charity and volunteer work either outside the scope of their work permit or as spouses without a work permit. It goes on constantly unpunished, though of course it can be punished. The golden rule is not to do something that puts yourself in between someone and money, unless maybe you have a bigger patron than any interested party. Teaching's generally not a good idea because lots of other people make money at it, there was a thread recently about a guy who had been volunteer teaching local kids and the local cops came by and warned him. Note: they warned him. In Thailand if you don't piss someone off or you're not just incredibly unlucky, people will usually warn you first if you're edging into sketchy territory because they don't want to create a big hubbub. On the other hand, if you show up to a village in Mae Hong Son (as several friends do and have done for years) and work with a local group to install wells or help with a clinic, most likely nothing's going to happen.

On ThaiVisa, you will hear that no matter what you do without a work permit you will be put in the slammer, sodomized, stuffed into a cannon and shot back to your home country with a blackball stuffed in your mouth, but cases like this are either A] total outliers or B] cases in which there's something more to the story than "All I did was help my neighbor dig a ditch!" and the person is lying by omission.

Use your common sense.

(cue the "NO IT'S ILLEGAL YOU WILL GO TO JAIL THE TSUNAMI BLAH BLAH" or "ME MISSUS' FRIEND'S HUSBAND GOT PUT IN JAIL FOR MOWING HIS LAWN" brigade)

Edited April 21, 2011 by on-on

[H2oDunc]

So my friend in HH who was volunteering that got arrested, jailed, deported and blacklisted was just making it up then ?

I also know of many other people who volunteer and do so with no problems. Would you rather the OP was told the truth or just told your blinkered version of reality ?

You RISK getting arrested, and deported and it is as simple as that. To say otherwise is wrong.

[californiabeachboy]

Thanks to all for the input. I have decided not to do it. Even if it is only a 1% chance of being blacklisted from visiting Thailand in the future, it is not worth it. I will find some other way to occupy my time - shouldn't be too hard.

Cheers.

[GuyDow]

Even if it is only a 1% chance of being blacklisted from visiting Thailand in the future, it is not worth it.

Couldn't agree more. That's exactly why I stopped helping out with the English classes at the local school.

[Dellboy218]

As an example, read the Chiang Mai forum about musicians being arrested.

[sirchai]

Don't do it.

Just don't do it. Why don't you want to work here legally? Not a great deal to obtain a work permit. There are plenty of school who'd hire you.

Even part time. But don't go the way without a WP. Cheers-:jap:

[lopburi3]

Flame and response removed.

[NancyL]

Another danger not mentioned is that you open yourself up to being a target of officials looking for bribes to look the the other way. Some of the people who say they've been doing volunteer work for years, never had a problem, etc, etc, are well-respected in their community, know the Thai language, have contacts, etc. A newbie doing volunteer work without a WP is a much easier target.

[bf2002]

I read on some pattaya rag ad seeking volunteers and you will get a "volunteer 1 year visa".

I think it was a scam myself, but one never knows....try googling it and see if there's any truth to it....otherwise, don't do it.

The tourist police are NOT violating work permit laws....any of the so-called arm chair lawyers consider that the Thai INS cleared this with the Thai tourist police already (duh). TiT doesn't always apply.....notice they seem pretty good at catching jewelry thieves too.

[bf2002]

You can also look into teaching English at The Father Ray or Mercy Center in Pattaya and have them sponsor your work visa.....or you can look into the Thai education ministry which has sought more than once for teachers they are wiling to pay a small stipend to teach in Issaan (if you want to live like in the Old American West) or even in Bangkok and more developed areas schools.

Last option, just get a job paid teaching English and donate the proceeds if you wish to a good charity, and thus be totally legal.

[Mario2008]

(.............)

The tourist police are NOT violating work permit laws....any of the so-called arm chair lawyers consider that the Thai INS cleared this with the Thai tourist police already (duh). TiT doesn't always apply.....notice they seem pretty good at catching jewelry thieves too.

Did you read the Thai Alien Labour Act? It says that exceptions can be made, by Royal Decree. I'm curious if someone can point to such Decree.

[jko]

A lot of great work is done by volunteers here, and people should not be too discouraged if they they really want to help the community. Those keen on volunteering may therefore wish to attend the forthcoming meeting of the 'Chiang Mai Friends Group' when a government official is scheduled to clarify the regulations and 'explain the intricacies' Hopefully this event will provide up-to-date clear-cut information, and I hope this post does not break forum rules.

Date: Wed 27^th April 2011 5:30pm – 9:00pm

Dinner & Meeting : 300 THB for members, 350 THB for non-members. Meeting only : 80 THB

Venue: Butterfly Chiang Mai : 181 Moo 6. San Pee Sua

Friends Talk : Mr. Ruchuchai Potha , Labor Technical Officer, Department of Employment Chiang Mai Province.

This month the Speaker is Khun Ruchuchai Potha who runs the Ministry of Employment in Chiang Mai. He will be explaining the conditions under which work permits may be issued and when they are required.

Many foreign residents in Chiang Mai undertake charity or voluntary work, some of which does require a work permit. Khun Ruchachai will explain the intricacies. He may also talk about the new initiative between the Ministry of Employment and Chiang Mai Friends which is aimed at making work permits simpler and easier to obtain for those undertaking voluntary work.

Khun Ruchachai will be happy to answer questions from the audience after his talk.

[terak69]

A lot of great work is done by volunteers here, and people should not be too discouraged if they they really want to help the community. Those keen on volunteering may therefore wish to attend the forthcoming meeting of the 'Chiang Mai Friends Group' when a government official is scheduled to clarify the regulations and 'explain the intricacies' Hopefully this event will provide up-to-date clear-cut information, and I hope this post does not break forum rules.

Date: Wed 27^th April 2011 5:30pm – 9:00pm

Dinner & Meeting : 300 THB for members, 350 THB for non-members. Meeting only : 80 THB

Venue: Butterfly Chiang Mai : 181 Moo 6. San Pee Sua

Friends Talk : Mr. Ruchuchai Potha , Labor Technical Officer, Department of Employment Chiang Mai Province.

This month the Speaker is Khun Ruchuchai Potha who runs the Ministry of Employment in Chiang Mai. He will be explaining the conditions under which work permits may be issued and when they are required.

Many foreign residents in Chiang Mai undertake charity or voluntary work, some of which does require a work permit. Khun Ruchachai will explain the intricacies. He may also talk about the new initiative between the Ministry of Employment and Chiang Mai Friends which is aimed at making work permits simpler and easier to obtain for those undertaking voluntary work.

Khun Ruchachai will be happy to answer questions from the audience after his talk.

That's great for people living near CM, but will someone be able to post facts from the meeting onto here ?? I also know that regional interpretaions will apply, bit it would be good to get to learn 1 set of rules :jap:

[Mario2008]

The rules are clear: volunteering needs a work permit. What you need to get a work permit will vary from labour office to labour office. But basicly your employer fills in some forms and you supply your highest degree.

A labour office is most helpful with this. I never had any problem with them and receive all the support they can give me.

[terak69]

The rules are clear: volunteering needs a work permit. What you need to get a work permit will vary from labour office to labour office. But basicly your employer fills in some forms and you supply your highest degree.

A labour office is most helpful with this. I never had any problem with them and receive all the support they can give me.

How do Tourist Police Volunteers get away with no WP then ? pls

[anterian]

the main risk is some disgruntled person reporting you, this is why volunteer teaching is so risky. I often do voluntary work in my community, but always at the request of someone high enough up the chain of command to block any complaints.

A grey area is where it is a community project, such as a village clean up, is this voluntary work or just doing your civic duty?

[terak69]

A grey area is where it is a community project, such as a village clean up, is this voluntary work or just doing your civic duty?

Civic duty = working in this case I would imagine :jap:

[mizzi39]

As others have stated you need a WP even for volunteer work if you want to stay above board. If a school is willing to take you on,all that is really required is a contract and letter of invite, then off to Lao (Savannakhet has a good consulate).

You should be able to obtain a 1 year non B requiring you to do a border run every three months (costs is 5,000 baht i think) or a three month non B (1900 baht) if you are sure that you can get a 1 year extension before the 3 months runs out. Then all that is required is a 90 day report.

Some rules have changed. This year I had to get a 1 year extension in my work permit BEFORE getting the1 year extension in my non B. I have had the same non B since 2008 though and just get it extended every year. Good Luck.

Edited April 24, 2011 by mizzi39

[Tanaka]

What about if you pay to do volunteer work? Still illegal? Anyone knows? No guessing please.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Tanaka

[on-on]

A grey area is where it is a community project, such as a village clean up, is this voluntary work or just doing your civic duty?

I suppose it'd be in the eye of the beholder and owing the the golden rule, yeah, which is that if someone is pissed at you they could theoretically report you. Seems pretty unlikely though, unless there's some separate circumstance involved. Just as an example, I participated in the big Bangkok cleanup after the protests. I sat there all day long scrubbing graffiti, washing walls and so on. A number of other obvious foreigners did as well. Since it bears on the topic of this thread, I'll point out that I was interviewed in two newspapers, on Thai television and spoke with a number of Thai people and officials who came by (I got there early, so there weren't as many farangs yet). In fact, the Governor did a a TV interview about 10' from me at one point. According to Thai Visa I should currently be in jail or deported, but according to how real life works in Thailand I was allowed to carry out a civic duty as a Bangkok resident unfettered. In fact, if anything, people and officials were overwhelmingly too nice about the whole affair.

So, basically, when it comes to various foreigner-related laws and issues there are a lot of know-it-alls on these forums who love to quote the letter of the law and then scaremonger, like bad sensationalist tabloid show hosts. This is a bit of a problem because when you're first coming here and you read Thai Visa (as I did) the country sounds like an authoritarian nightmare of immigration gulags and plainclothes minders scrutinizing farangs for any perceived infraction. When you live a normal working life here, apparently in some alternate universe from where the denizens of Thai Visa live, you find out that things are pretty much normal. While there's corruption and there are legal issues and, at times, instances of egregious behavior (such as the Harry Nicolaides case), day to day existence, at least for me and literally every farang I know in person, doesn't include shakedowns, bribes, fines, fees, jailtime, Thai neighbors who snitch you out for mowing your lawn or anything else even remotely like this. Of all the people I know, only one got jailed briefly for a ridiculous incident, but tat was because he was a subcontractor on a highly political government contract (Suvarnabhumi) and he was subsequently released, uncharged. I think we all know that certain areas are risky - government contracts, real estate, journalism and so on. Anything where you're getting into land, politics or public humiliation (real or perceived) of others. Otherwise, of the 40 or 50 farangs I know well enough to say I know them well, many of whom have lived here for 20, 30 or more years, none have had any issues and many have built businesses and lives in Thailand. Sure, they've had to cut corners here and there and figure out how the local networks operate, depending on what they do, but that's about the worst of it. Certainly there's not so much as one story among them of a guy getting hauled off to jail for hammering a nail into the wall of his business or the kind of ridiculous nonsense you read on these forums. And no one I know has ever been bothered about the various charity and volunteer activities they participate in regularly - nor have I. And some of these people spend months building schools for villages, sewers for refugee camps and so on. Still, best to be safe and sit home on the internet worrying about it and telling other people not to go outside and do anything helpful.

All that said, the original post was about teaching English without a work permit and while I'm sure you could get away with helping people out here and there, or maybe even longer depending on the situation, since that's such a high profile career (in its own odd way), I'd avoid it. If, however, the OP were about helping to mow your crippled neighbor's lawn or something - go for it.

[Mario2008]

What about if you pay to do volunteer work? Still illegal? Anyone knows? No guessing please.

Yes, that is still illegal without a work permit.

[linbs]

Why you don't just contact one of the charities or programs which use volunteers all the time and get a WP through them?

Thanks to all for the input. I have decided not to do it. Even if it is only a 1% chance of being blacklisted from visiting Thailand in the future, it is not worth it. I will find some other way to occupy my time - shouldn't be too hard.

Cheers.

[nycjoe]

Thanks to all for the input. I have decided not to do it. Even if it is only a 1% chance of being blacklisted from visiting Thailand in the future, it is not worth it. I will find some other way to occupy my time - shouldn't be too hard.

Cheers.

Hi,

I have been HELPING in Chiang Mai and Maehongson for years, I volunteer with toysforthailand.org, based out of San Diego, we do no WORK, just consult with the schoolmasters at the hill tribe schools along the border and supply the things they need to turn their schools into protein factories. Our latest project was to supply a water system in Om Goi village, we partnered with Mae jo university, faculty and students who installed the system. The key is not to do work that will take work from a Thai.

We pattern ourselves after the Heifer project, we give fish farms, barber shops (which make money for seeds and fish food) fish farms, gardening tools, soy milk making machines, tofu making machines, rice husking machines that while reducing the cost of milled rice also feed the breeding pigs and ducks we supply. The pigs offal, is put into tanks that produce methane to run the stove in the kitchen and is later used as fertilizer. Playgrounds entice the villagers to bring their children to the schools, rather than use them in the fields. We are never disappointed in seeing the fruits of our labor (fund raising). Last year we put on a festival in Maehongson which was hosted by the Mayor, all of the hill tribes were represented and they performed their dances and songs and mingled with the other children from different tribes nine tribes were represented, it was wonderful and I got a certificate for being the number one elf (not a work category) for toysforthailand.org, signed by the Mayor and School Administrator for the provence. We go twice a year to give to the the tools they need to the schoolmasters. I will be organizing fundraisers and trips to the schools upon my return to Thailand, ( I am currently in NYC ) on June 15th, if you want to get in touch with me, my number in Thailand is 0857142550 after June 15th, I will find something for you to do.

Our goal is to help the schools to become self sufficient and be able to leave a self sustaining system that they can administer that while improving the nutrition of the children and also teaches them animal husbandry and farming without the use of chemicals ie. marigolds with cabbages.

Sasha Bilar from San diego was born in Thailand and is the dynamo of our organization and communicates well with the powers that be. While Maria Miller counts the buttons and keeps the whole thing together.

Another group I work with is strongwillseed.org, which sells cards made by a few schools south of chiang mai, it is a Thai Charity, that brings out the creative juices of the kids while helping them to raise money for their schools nutritional program. We are sectarian and do nothing to change the cultures of the people that live there and we are all volunteer, I am retired from the New York Times.

I don't know of anyone who has been kicked out of Thailand for helping the Thai people to help themselves. Go to http:www.toysforthailand.org and check it out.

[jazzbo]

from Post #27: We are sectarian and do nothing to change the cultures of the people that live there and we are all volunteer ... Did you maybe mean to say that you are NON-sectarian?

[yumidesign]

Thanks to all for the input. I have decided not to do it. Even if it is only a 1% chance of being blacklisted from visiting Thailand in the future, it is not worth it. I will find some other way to occupy my time - shouldn't be too hard.

Cheers.

very good choice na krub

[johncat1]

You can get a Work Permit to teach in a private or language School No problem ( Well I was told that by someone at the Teacher's Council in Bangkok )

But I don't know how many hours you have to teach a week to get a full time Work permit to stay here.

It only gets complicated if you work in a Government school and come under Teacher's Council regulations.