Fatah and Hamas agree to Palestinian unity government

[kuffki]

Gaza demonstrators condemn death of bin Laden

In the weeks ahead of bin Laden's death, a survey in the Arab world by the Pew Research Center found support for the al-Qaida leader had dropped dramatically in recent years — though it remained the highest among Palestinians.

On Monday, Ismail Haniyeh, prime minister of Gaza's Hamas government, condemned the U.S. operation against bin Laden, whom he hailed as a "Muslim and Arab warrior."

Channel 2 TV broadcast video Tuesday from Jerusalem's Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third-holiest site, showing a Palestinian preacher mourning bin Laden, calling him "a hero" and "a lion of Islam," cursing President Barack Obama, and hurling insults at Pope John Paul II.

http://www.mail.com/...tage-subhero1-3

so what more needs to be said????

Edited May 4, 2011 by kuffki

[Steely Dan]

What Palestinians do to Palestinians is up to them. What Israeli's do to Palestinians is just plain wrong and the rest of the world knows it.

Interesting point of view so if you are a Palestinian sod your universal human rights, the protection and education of children or even right to life, providing those denying you these are fellow Palestinians or other Arabs. Whereas every hardship caused by Israelis, regardless of whether it is self-inflicted or not requires worldwide condemnation of Israel and the largest per capita foreign aid levels in the world to compensate them.

[Pakboong]

Unfortunately, there remains what I call an underground war between the Palestinian resistance and groups of Israeli settlers including but not limited to "Gush Emunum" and it's splinter groups, "Bnei Akiva", "Machon Meir" and many others who work outside the sanction of the IDF and the Israeli government. The right or wrong of either side really doesn't matter that much and both sides work to undermind the peace process for their own political reasons/gains.

1. The topic is not about underground war betweenPalestinian resistance and groups of Israeli settlers BUT about Fatah and Hamas agree to unity government

2. Since you brought up another one of your conspiracy theory's, be kind enough to provide evidence that so called splinter groups and many others work outside IDF or the government.

3. Also be kind enough to provide evidence that settlers who break the law go unpunished and Palestinians breaking the law get punished.

If you can not or do not wish(as you always chose that path) provide any evidence, please save your conspiracy theory's for your personal diary or a book, that you may wish to write.

Obviously this is a personal theory. There is no mainstream news release regarding underground activity. I can give the basis for my theory but only my theory. I am not trying to convince anybody of anything.

Take the Vogel murders as an example. IMO, the Palistinian resistence murdered this family based on what they believed to be ties to "Gush Emunim" in the case of Ehud “Udi” Vogel. Vogel also holds as do many Israelis the rank of reserve Captain in IDF intelligence. HIs wife, Ruth Ben-Yishai was believed to be a member of "Gush Eminum" and “Bnei Akiva”. IMO, the was not a random hate crime. The Palestinians did it and I doubt it was the two arrested teenagers who weilded the knife. But that doesn't really matter.

Ruth Vogel's father is Yehuda Ben-Yishai, a French Rabbi heads the “Machon Meir”, a group the Palestinan underground calls a terrorist group. The Palestinians of course, call everybody Israeli a terrorist group, but the militarily oppose this group as a specific target group and not just random terrorism.

Haim Vogel, father of Udi Vogel heads a group called "Amana" who the Palestinian underground targets specifically.

Roots to much of these movements were in WW2 Europe as well as the middle east to include Iran.

Again, this is just an opinion and not reported anywhere in the mainstream news.

[kuffki]

Well according to Palestinians it was the ASIAN who did it.

Because he was not paid.

Unfortunately, there remains what I call an underground war between the Palestinian resistance and groups of Israeli settlers including but not limited to "Gush Emunum" and it's splinter groups, "Bnei Akiva", "Machon Meir" and many others who work outside the sanction of the IDF and the Israeli government. The right or wrong of either side really doesn't matter that much and both sides work to undermind the peace process for their own political reasons/gains.

1. The topic is not about underground war betweenPalestinian resistance and groups of Israeli settlers BUT about Fatah and Hamas agree to unity government

2. Since you brought up another one of your conspiracy theory's, be kind enough to provide evidence that so called splinter groups and many others work outside IDF or the government.

3. Also be kind enough to provide evidence that settlers who break the law go unpunished and Palestinians breaking the law get punished.

If you can not or do not wish(as you always chose that path) provide any evidence, please save your conspiracy theory's for your personal diary or a book, that you may wish to write.

Obviously this is a personal theory. There is no mainstream news release regarding underground activity. I can give the basis for my theory but only my theory. I am not trying to convince anybody of anything.

Take the Vogel murders as an example. IMO, the Palistinian resistence murdered this family based on what they believed to be ties to "Gush Emunim" in the case of Ehud “Udi” Vogel. Vogel also holds as do many Israelis the rank of reserve Captain in IDF intelligence. HIs wife, Ruth Ben-Yishai was believed to be a member of "Gush Eminum" and “Bnei Akiva”. IMO, the was not a random hate crime. The Palestinians did it and I doubt it was the two arrested teenagers who weilded the knife. But that doesn't really matter.

Ruth Vogel's father is Yehuda Ben-Yishai, a French Rabbi heads the “Machon Meir”, a group the Palestinan underground calls a terrorist group. The Palestinians of course, call everybody Israeli a terrorist group, but the militarily oppose this group as a specific target group and not just random terrorism.

Haim Vogel, father of Udi Vogel heads a group called "Amana" who the Palestinian underground targets specifically.

Roots to much of these movements were in WW2 Europe as well as the middle east to include Iran.

Again, this is just an opinion and not reported anywhere in the mainstream news.

[Ulysses G.]

Again, this is just an opinion and not reported anywhere in the mainstream news.

In other words, it is just something that someone made up.

[Steely Dan]

Gaza demonstrators condemn death of bin Laden

In the weeks ahead of bin Laden's death, a survey in the Arab world by the Pew Research Center found support for the al-Qaida leader had dropped dramatically in recent years — though it remained the highest among Palestinians.

On Monday, Ismail Haniyeh, prime minister of Gaza's Hamas government, condemned the U.S. operation against bin Laden, whom he hailed as a "Muslim and Arab warrior."

Channel 2 TV broadcast video Tuesday from Jerusalem's Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third-holiest site, showing a Palestinian preacher mourning bin Laden, calling him "a hero" and "a lion of Islam," cursing President Barack Obama, and hurling insults at Pope John Paul II.

http://www.mail.com/...tage-subhero1-3

so what more needs to be said????

Now is that surprising from the same people who danced on the rooftops to celebrate 9/11? It really is high time the U.S cut aid to the Palestinians, they hate the U.S with a passion and while there are no consequences to their actions they will continue to behave like spoiled children.

As for Haniyeh, what a fine ambassador for a Palestinian state he would make.

[kuffki]

Gaza demonstrators condemn death of bin Laden

In the weeks ahead of bin Laden's death, a survey in the Arab world by the Pew Research Center found support for the al-Qaida leader had dropped dramatically in recent years — though it remained the highest among Palestinians.

On Monday, Ismail Haniyeh, prime minister of Gaza's Hamas government, condemned the U.S. operation against bin Laden, whom he hailed as a "Muslim and Arab warrior."

Channel 2 TV broadcast video Tuesday from Jerusalem's Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third-holiest site, showing a Palestinian preacher mourning bin Laden, calling him "a hero" and "a lion of Islam," cursing President Barack Obama, and hurling insults at Pope John Paul II.

http://www.mail.com/...tage-subhero1-3

so what more needs to be said????

Now is that surprising from the same people who danced on the rooftops to celebrate 9/11? It really is high time the U.S cut aid to the Palestinians, they hate the U.S with a passion and while there are no consequences to their actions they will continue to behave like spoiled children.

As for Haniyeh, what a fine ambassador for a Palestinian state he would make.

Netanyahu noted Hamas' refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist, as well as Hamas' condemnation of the U.S. killing of al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden.

"How is it possible to achieve peace with a government, half of which calls for the destruction of the state of Israel and even praises the arch-murderer Osama bin Laden?" Netanyahu said. He made the comments to international Mideast envoy Tony Blair and promised to make similar appeals when he heads to Britain and France this week, according to a statement from his office.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Mark Toner echoed that, denouncing the Gaza premier's criticism of the bin Laden killing. He also insisted insisting that if Hamas wants to play a role in the political process, then it needs to abide by the principles of international mediators, "which are renouncing violence and terrorism, recognizing Israel's right to exist, and abiding by previous diplomatic agreements."

http://www.mail.com/int/news/world/389716-palestinian-factions-agree-to-reconciliation-deal.html#.389296-stage-related1-9

[Wallaby]

What Palestinians do to Palestinians is up to them. What Israeli's do to Palestinians is just plain wrong and the rest of the world knows it.

I can not believe what i read.

Please explain why it is so?

It is not for Israel to determine, on it's own, what another country should do. If the UN considers there is a problem then they will deal with it.

[kuffki]

What Palestinians do to Palestinians is up to them. What Israeli's do to Palestinians is just plain wrong and the rest of the world knows it.

I can not believe what i read.

Please explain why it is so?

It is not for Israel to determine, on it's own, what another country should do. If the UN considers there is a problem then they will deal with it.

my friend, i am sorry to have to tell you but you just lost any reasonable, common sense ground to have any debate at all.

Its ok for Palestinian to kill Palestinian because that Palestinian was singing a song, yet it is not ok for Israel to kill Palestinian who is firing rockets into Israel?

Will you be calling the UN to ask what color underwear you can wear today?

Its ok for you to kill your own child, but its not ok for me?

Edited May 4, 2011 by kuffki

[Wallaby]

What Palestinians do to Palestinians is up to them. What Israeli's do to Palestinians is just plain wrong and the rest of the world knows it.

I can not believe what i read.

Please explain why it is so?

It is not for Israel to determine, on it's own, what another country should do. If the UN considers there is a problem then they will deal with it.

my friend, i am sorry to have to tell you but you just lost any reasonable, common sense ground to have any debate at all.

Its ok for Palestinian to kill Palestinian because that Palestinian was singing a song, yet it is not ok for Israel to kill Palestinian who is firing rockets into Israel?

Will you be calling the UN to ask what color underwear you can wear today?

Its ok for you to kill your own child, but its not ok for me?

Kuffki, I did not say it was ok, I said what Palestinian does to Palestinian is up to them. It is not the job of Israel to determine what should and should not happen in Palestine. Do you really think Israel would care if Palestinians killed each other? They would just be doing the job for them.

My point being that posters on here are saying that Israel treates its own better than Palestinians treat their own. So what, this isn't about what Palestinians to to Palestinians, that is none of Israel's business.

Of course the UN can step in if it thinks Palestine has crossed the line with it's own people but at this stage the UN is more concerned with what Israel is doing to the people of Palestine.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Wallaby

[kuffki]

Kuffki, I did not say it was ok, I said what Palestinian does to Palestinian is up to them. It is not the job of Israel to determine what should and should not happen in Palestine. Do you really think Israel would care if Palestinians killed each other? They would just be doing the job for them.

My point being that posters on here are saying that Israel treates its own better than Palestinians treat their own. So what, this isn't about what Palestinians to to Palestinians, that is none of Israel's business.

Of course the UN can step in if it thinks Palestine has crossed the line with it's own people but at this stage the UN is more concerned with what Israel is doing to the people of Palestine.

I do not believe Israel has a say or even tried to have a say what and how Palestinians should treat each other.

However it does affect Israel when Palestinians vote for terrorist government.

It does affect Israel when terrorist fire rockets in other words attack Israel but hide behind civilians

So let me ask you this, if Hamas does not care much for human life of its own people and use them as human shields, why should Israel care about those being used?

[Wallaby]

Kuffki, I did not say it was ok, I said what Palestinian does to Palestinian is up to them. It is not the job of Israel to determine what should and should not happen in Palestine. Do you really think Israel would care if Palestinians killed each other? They would just be doing the job for them.

My point being that posters on here are saying that Israel treates its own better than Palestinians treat their own. So what, this isn't about what Palestinians to to Palestinians, that is none of Israel's business.

Of course the UN can step in if it thinks Palestine has crossed the line with it's own people but at this stage the UN is more concerned with what Israel is doing to the people of Palestine.

I do not believe Israel has a say or even tried to have a say what and how Palestinians should treat each other.

However it does affect Israel when Palestinians vote for terrorist government.

It does affect Israel when terrorist fire rockets in other words attack Israel but hide behind civilians

So let me ask you this, if Hamas does not care much for human life of its own people and use them as human shields, why should Israel care about those being used?

Regardless of being a terrorist govt, they were voted in. The west demanded democracy and got it. Either you want it or you don't.

Yes I agree, it does affect Israel when rockets are fired and Israel has every right to defend itself and fire back etc. In my view Israel goes too far.

What Hamas does or thinks about the human life of it's own people has nothing to do with Israel. If Israel wants to lower itself to not caring about human shields then it can expect the world to treat them the same as Hamas. The world has had enough of what Israel is doing.

Slightly off topic, I read in The Australian newspaper today that because the US went into Pakistan to kill Bin Laden then it is a green light for Israel to do the same. Can't find the link just now but will look.

[Wallaby]

This is it.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/kill-gives-us-carte-blanche-israel/story-fn8ljzlv-1226049417596

[kuffki]

The only democracy gazza had was the elections , by the way it is not known if it was clean.

The moment Hamas took power all democracy or freedoms went out the door.

People do have any rights, and should they speak out or protest or just sing, they get beaten tortured or killed.

Hamas has made the life of people even worse not only with attacks on Israel but internally.

You bring up UN, UN, NATO specifically is in Lybia right now because they do not want civilians killed. If Israel was as bad as some reports indicate , why have not UN sent the troops?

You say Israel went too far, in what respect ?

If anything Israel's actions is saving Palestinian life's . If Israel allows Hamas freely to fire rockets, then it has no choice but to retaliate, and then more civilians die.

What do yOu think is better? Have restriction of movement or be dead?

Kuffki, I did not say it was ok, I said what Palestinian does to Palestinian is up to them. It is not the job of Israel to determine what should and should not happen in Palestine. Do you really think Israel would care if Palestinians killed each other? They would just be doing the job for them.

My point being that posters on here are saying that Israel treates its own better than Palestinians treat their own. So what, this isn't about what Palestinians to to Palestinians, that is none of Israel's business.

Of course the UN can step in if it thinks Palestine has crossed the line with it's own people but at this stage the UN is more concerned with what Israel is doing to the people of Palestine.

I do not believe Israel has a say or even tried to have a say what and how Palestinians should treat each other.

However it does affect Israel when Palestinians vote for terrorist government.

It does affect Israel when terrorist fire rockets in other words attack Israel but hide behind civilians

So let me ask you this, if Hamas does not care much for human life of its own people and use them as human shields, why should Israel care about those being used?

Regardless of being a terrorist govt, they were voted in. The west demanded democracy and got it. Either you want it or you don't.

Yes I agree, it does affect Israel when rockets are fired and Israel has every right to defend itself and fire back etc. In my view Israel goes too far.

What Hamas does or thinks about the human life of it's own people has nothing to do with Israel. If Israel wants to lower itself to not caring about human shields then it can expect the world to treat them the same as Hamas. The world has had enough of what Israel is doing.

Slightly off topic, I read in The Australian newspaper today that because the US went into Pakistan to kill Bin Laden then it is a green light for Israel to do the same. Can't find the link just now but will look.

[Ulysses G.]

Slightly off topic, I read in The Australian newspaper today that because the US went into Pakistan to kill Bin Laden then it is a green light for Israel to do the same. Can't find the link just now but will look.

As he is already dead, they probably do not want to waste the gasoline. It is expensive these days.

[Wallaby]

The only democracy gazza had was the elections , by the way it is not known if it was clean.

The moment Hamas took power all democracy or freedoms went out the door.

People do have any rights, and should they speak out or protest or just sing, they get beaten tortured or killed.

Hamas has made the life of people even worse not only with attacks on Israel but internally.

You bring up UN, UN, NATO specifically is in Lybia right now because they do not want civilians killed. If Israel was as bad as some reports indicate , why have not UN sent the troops?

You say Israel went too far, in what respect ?

If anything Israel's actions is saving Palestinian life's . If Israel allows Hamas freely to fire rockets, then it has no choice but to retaliate, and then more civilians die.

What do yOu think is better? Have restriction of movement or be dead?

I'll number the responses for ease.

1. I have no idea if any investigations were done to determine if the election was clean or not. But it was an election and democratic.

2. I think you mean that they 'don't' have any rights. That may be so, but that has nothing to do with Israel, it is none of their business.

3. Again, it is not for Israel to determine who should be in govt according to who the like and dislike.

4. NATO etc is in Libya for a bit more than protecting civilians, you can't possibly think that is the case. They are there to get rid of Gadaffi. They may not say it directly, but that is their goal. If Hamas were as bad as you say then the UN would be intervening wouldn't they. I can ask the same of you, why haven't the UN sent troops in to blast Hamas?

5. Just my opinion but I believe Israel goes too far by continuing to build settlements which antagonises the Palestinians, why would you want to do that? I also think Israel has over reacted in some instances with too much overkill (for want of another word).

6. It is not up to Israel to save Palestinian lives. I do agree they should protect themselves and fire back accordingly. Just not go overboard with it.

7. Of course restriction of movement is better. But again, not Israel's call.

[Jingthing]

Why is the posting of antisemitic cartoons/cartoonists tolerated on this forum? Would online hate campaigns against other groups, such as Kurds, gays, Palestinians, Koreans, be tolerated? If you don't believe me about this cartoonist (Brazilian Carlos Latuff), simply google "Alan Dershowitz Hard at Work".

Also, of course it is OK to criticize the POLICIES of any country, including Israel. But why is it OK to propagandize for the DESTRUCTION of any country on this forum, as certain posters are openly doing here on this forum regarding Israel? While I may detest the regime in Iran, I can't imagine promoting that the entire country be abolished. But in Israel's case, that is OK to do? It seems like hate speech to me.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

Genocide? Gaza has an obesity problem, perhaps the Israelis are fattening them up to be eaten. Your ridiculous hyperbole does more to destroy your pathetic arguments than anyone could by refuting them. I will however observe that the estimated three million killed in Sudan was genocide, as was East timor where the proportion of the population killed was greater than Pol Pot managed, both these acts were committed by Muslims by the way. As for Israeli retaliation in the Cast lead campaign. If you accept the common estimate of 1300 Palestinian casualties that is still only 10% of the number killed by King Hussein in Jordan when he chucked the PLO out - The Jordanian 'genocide' of Palestinians was far greater than the Israeli one even allowing for your cheapening misuse of the word.

Edited May 4, 2011 by metisdead
Removed comments as per no personal posting is allowed as per the rules for sponsors.

[kuffki]

In reply to Bridge, who wrote the following -

Antisemitic hate speech are your words - not mine. Read back through the posts and you will see a fair share of Palestine bashing (form the usual suspect I might add). I have zero tolerance and compassion for a country that uses the memory of the holocaust as a justification and a reason to legitimize itself for causing the genocide of the Palestinians. With regards to whether I think other countries are as bad as Israel, of course there are, but last time I checked this forum post was on the deal struck between Fatah and Hamas. Referring to Nth. Korea might therefore be a bit off-topic don't you think?

Genocide? Gaza has an obesity problem, perhaps the Israelis are fattening them up to be eaten. Your ridiculous hyperbole does more to destroy your pathetic arguments than anyone could by refuting them. I will however observe that the estimated three million killed in Sudan was genocide, as was East timor where the proportion of the population killed was greater than Pol Pot managed, both these acts were committed by Muslims by the way. As for Israeli retaliation in the Cast lead campaign. If you accept the common estimate of 1300 Palestinian casualties that is still only 10% of the number killed by King Hussein in Jordan when he chucked the PLO out - The Jordanian 'genocide' of Palestinians was far greater than the Israeli one even allowing for your cheapening misuse of the word.

My bad. I was unaware that genocide was defined by a number. Obviously still a work in progress by Israel then.

when did the works begin? and when were they scheduled to finish?

[Steely Dan]

So what was the expectation date? if you gonna make a statement, please be man enough to stand by it.

So it was definitely 1967 not 1948? because again, i would assume someone of your caliber would get the facts right, as according to some of your terror freedom fighters brothers, it started in 1948, so why do not you sinc with them to get the dates right

Perhaps it was even earlier - Hitler and the Mufti of Jerusalem joined forces to try and stop Jewish genocide of the Arabs in the holy lands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_p4B0vN488

Edited May 4, 2011 by Steely Dan

[metisdead]

A number of posts and replies have been removed due to contravention of forum posting guidelines for sponsors.

[chuckd]

The only democracy gazza had was the elections , by the way it is not known if it was clean.

The moment Hamas took power all democracy or freedoms went out the door.

People do have any rights, and should they speak out or protest or just sing, they get beaten tortured or killed.

Hamas has made the life of people even worse not only with attacks on Israel but internally.

You bring up UN, UN, NATO specifically is in Lybia right now because they do not want civilians killed. If Israel was as bad as some reports indicate , why have not UN sent the troops?

You say Israel went too far, in what respect ?

If anything Israel's actions is saving Palestinian life's . If Israel allows Hamas freely to fire rockets, then it has no choice but to retaliate, and then more civilians die.

What do yOu think is better? Have restriction of movement or be dead?

I'll number the responses for ease.

1. I have no idea if any investigations were done to determine if the election was clean or not. But it was an election and democratic.

2. I think you mean that they 'don't' have any rights. That may be so, but that has nothing to do with Israel, it is none of their business.

3. Again, it is not for Israel to determine who should be in govt according to who the like and dislike.

4. NATO etc is in Libya for a bit more than protecting civilians, you can't possibly think that is the case. They are there to get rid of Gadaffi. They may not say it directly, but that is their goal. If Hamas were as bad as you say then the UN would be intervening wouldn't they. I can ask the same of you, why haven't the UN sent troops in to blast Hamas?

5. Just my opinion but I believe Israel goes too far by continuing to build settlements which antagonises the Palestinians, why would you want to do that? I also think Israel has over reacted in some instances with too much overkill (for want of another word).

6. It is not up to Israel to save Palestinian lives. I do agree they should protect themselves and fire back accordingly. Just not go overboard with it.

7. Of course restriction of movement is better. But again, not Israel's call.

Regarding your answer #3 above, how would you feel about Syria and Iran becoming involved in the so called peace agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority? Read the attached article and you might learn any Israeli/Palestinian peace deal must now be negotiated between Israel, the Palestinian Authority and the nations of Syria and Iran.

Do you see anything wrong with this arrangement?

______________________________________________________

Palestinian deal ends rift, hurts peace prospects

By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press – 2 hrs 37 mins ago

CAIRO – Rival Palestinian factions Fatah and Hamas signed a landmark reconciliation pact on Wednesday, ending a four-year rift that had divided the territory envisioned for a future Palestinian state. The deal plunged Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking deeper into uncertainty as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it a "mortal blow to peace."

The agreement, which followed years of bitter acrimony between the two Palestinian movements, was made possible in large measure by the political changes sweeping the Arab world and the deadlock in U.S.-brokered peace talks with Israel.

A unity government foreseen by the accord would also allow the Palestinians to speak with a single voice if they go ahead with plans to ask the United Nations to recognize Palestine as a state during the annual General Assembly session in September.

With Wednesday's signing, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, whose Palestinian Authority governs the West Bank, joined forces with Khaled Mashaal, the Syrian-based head of Hamas, which rejects Israel's existence and is backed by Iran.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_reconciliation

[Ulysses G.]

No double standard. Israelis do not target civilans and Hamas do.

[Steely Dan]

Not to mention Israel don't use human shields, Hamas do and make no secret of it.

[Jingthing]

Speaking of which, no one is out and out calling for the destruction of israel. I don't want to see it wiped out. CHANGED sure, but everyone killed no.

Israel is capitalized, dear. Changed, huh? Please define precisely what you want Israel to be. Also, you're wrong, Hamas is on the record in its desire to destroy Israel.

[Jingthing]

Adding to my last post, I would also like to see Israel "changed" but it would also need to involve the good will and peaceful intentions of their neighbors.

Roughly what I would like to see --

A Palestinian state

Israel with 1967 borders

Israel remaining a sovereign Jewish state; Jews allowed to remain the dominant ethnic group there, the continuance of global Jewish right of return to Israel, in other words Zionism lives unless the Jews there decide democratically that it no longer lives, self determination for both Palestinians AND Jews

Jerusalem as a shared capital between the two states (don't ask me for details, what a mess)

A process of justice for the right of return issue for Palestinians with valid claims, an idea I read recently is an immigration allowance per year for those Arabs who want to return, and an offer of financial compensation for those who can prove claims who don't

Not sure of the details but any reforms necessary to make sure Arab Israeli citizens have full civil rights in Israel

Yes, I certainly realize my views are to the left of mainstream Israeli political thought and to the right of Israel demonizers, but I ain't Israeli so they have a right to decide for themselves.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Jingthing

[Huey]

Adding to my last post, I would also like to see Israel "changed" but it would also need to involve the good will and peaceful intentions of their neighbors.

Roughly what I would like to see --

A Palestinian state

Israel with 1967 borders

Israel remaining a sovereign Jewish state; Jews allowed to remain the dominant ethnic group there, the continuance of global Jewish right of return to Israel, in other words Zionism lives unless the Jews there decide democratically that it no longer lives, self determination for both Palestinians AND Jews

Jerusalem as a shared capital between the two states (don't ask me for details, what a mess)

A process of justice for the right of return issue for Palestinians with valid claims, an idea I read recently is an immigration allowance per year for those Arabs who want to return, and an offer of financial compensation for those who can prove claims who don't

Not sure of the details but any reforms necessary to make sure Arab Israeli citizens have full civil rights in Israel

Yes, I certainly realize my views are to the left of mainstream Israeli political thought and to the right of Israel demonizers, but I ain't Israeli so they have a right to decide for themselves.

Ok about how I would like to see it changed, baring going back in time and setting aside land in Germany for these Jewish Europeans to own and prosper from after other Europeans committed acts of genocide upon them, I would change the following.

Just like you said Jing;

A Palestinian state

israel with 1967 borders

isreal as a non theocratic democracy (not a state set a side were people of one religion are treated better or favoured in anyway over another) where no man or woman is treated differently with regard to their race, religion or ethenticity. No segregation, and right of return for Palestinians and like you mentioned financial compensation, TONS of it for isreal's victims.

I don't like the idea of any state where you are forced to be a certain religion in order to advance. Even Iran treats its 20,000+ Jews better with the right to live where they choose full citizenship, they even work in the govt with their own politicians. This works in Iran because the Jews there are Iranian and don't act treasonously by putting another nation first on the basis of religion.

OR

Better yet

For all the support and blood the US has shed for them over the years, let us simply absorb isreal and let it become the 51st State of America. Back to 1967 boundaries and we fully support our new citizens better than ever...just now they gotta pay for it like everyone else, no more free lunch for these bigots.

And they would have to comply with federal civil rights mandates and anti discrimination laws.

[Steely Dan]

Ok about how I would like to see it changed, baring going back in time and setting aside land in Germany for these Jewish Europeans to own and prosper from after other Europeans committed acts of genocide upon them, I would change the following.

Just like you said Jing;

A Palestinian state

israel with 1967 borders

isreal as a non theocratic democracy (not a state set a side were people of one religion are treated better or favoured in anyway over another) where no man or woman is treated differently with regard to their race, religion or ethenticity. No segregation, and right of return for Palestinians and like you mentioned financial compensation, TONS of it for isreal's victims.

I don't like the idea of any state where you are forced to be a certain religion in order to advance. Even Iran treats its 20,000+ Jews better with the right to live where they choose full citizenship, they even work in the govt with their own politicians. This works in Iran because the Jews there are Iranian and don't act treasonously by putting another nation first on the basis of religion.

OR

Better yet

For all the support and blood the US has shed for them over the years, let us simply absorb isreal and let it become the 51st State of America. Back to 1967 boundaries and we fully support our new citizens better than ever...just now they gotta pay for it like everyone else, no more free lunch for these bigots.

And they would have to comply with federal civil rights mandates and anti discrimination laws.

Starting with the borders. Resolution 242 requires recognition of Israel and ceasation of beligerancy from the Palestinians as well as Israel returning land it captured during hostilities. This has never happened. Since 1967 an estimated 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands have settled in Israel, If you want compensation for displaced Palestinians then these Jews should also be compensated.

As for religion, if Israel is to be completely secular it would be hypocritical to expect this without Israel's neighbors being secular too. But the discrimination based on religion or sect if far worse in just about every Arab country than it is in Israel.

Holding Iran up as an example is also laughable - 100,000 Jews lived there in 1948 a decline of 80% does not suggest a healthy state of affairs for Jews living there.

As for 'not funding bigots' - Agreed, why contribute to the world's highest per capita aid figure to Palestinians who teach their children to hate, use human shields and dance on the rooftops to celebrate 9/11.

Finally, if you can manage a 'P' in Palestine then an 'I' in Israel would at least give you the pretence of objectivity. :jap:

[Pakboong]

Adding to my last post, I would also like to see Israel "changed" but it would also need to involve the good will and peaceful intentions of their neighbors.

Roughly what I would like to see --

A Palestinian state

Israel with 1967 borders

Israel remaining a sovereign Jewish state; Jews allowed to remain the dominant ethnic group there, the continuance of global Jewish right of return to Israel, in other words Zionism lives unless the Jews there decide democratically that it no longer lives, self determination for both Palestinians AND Jews

Jerusalem as a shared capital between the two states (don't ask me for details, what a mess)

A process of justice for the right of return issue for Palestinians with valid claims, an idea I read recently is an immigration allowance per year for those Arabs who want to return, and an offer of financial compensation for those who can prove claims who don't

Not sure of the details but any reforms necessary to make sure Arab Israeli citizens have full civil rights in Israel

Yes, I certainly realize my views are to the left of mainstream Israeli political thought and to the right of Israel demonizers, but I ain't Israeli so they have a right to decide for themselves.

Ok about how I would like to see it changed, baring going back in time and setting aside land in Germany for these Jewish Europeans to own and prosper from after other Europeans committed acts of genocide upon them, I would change the following.

Just like you said Jing;

A Palestinian state

israel with 1967 borders

isreal as a non theocratic democracy (not a state set a side were people of one religion are treated better or favoured in anyway over another) where no man or woman is treated differently with regard to their race, religion or ethenticity. No segregation, and right of return for Palestinians and like you mentioned financial compensation, TONS of it for isreal's victims.

I don't like the idea of any state where you are forced to be a certain religion in order to advance. Even Iran treats its 20,000+ Jews better with the right to live where they choose full citizenship, they even work in the govt with their own politicians. This works in Iran because the Jews there are Iranian and don't act treasonously by putting another nation first on the basis of religion.

OR

Better yet

For all the support and blood the US has shed for them over the years, let us simply absorb isreal and let it become the 51st State of America. Back to 1967 boundaries and we fully support our new citizens better than ever...just now they gotta pay for it like everyone else, no more free lunch for these bigots.

And they would have to comply with federal civil rights mandates and anti discrimination laws.

I doubt seriously that Israel would agree to getting by with just 2 senators.

[Jingthing]

I agree he is a most excellent antisemitic propagandist. To compare the holocaust to Gaza as anything like equivalency is antisemitism by definition, so the poster above has just posted antisemitic propaganda, and I do wonder why that is tolerated here under the no hate speech policy here. Or is OK to post anti-Jewish hate speech and images here as an exception to all other kinds of hate speech which are not tolerated here?

Edited May 6, 2011 by Jingthing