Enough Is Enough

[Squigy]

Interested to find out from others on the Forum if they have reached a period in there residency in Thailand where you say "enough is enough" ? I think I have arrived at that stage in life whilst living here.

I have been in Thailand for the last 5 years and in the beginning it was a fantastic place to stay and enjoy, but over the last few months I have had many a battle with the people who live in the village where I stay and also I am getting a little sick and tired of not being able to contribute in any way to the future development of the region as a whole.

We Farang are really not wanted at all in Thailand, Thai's in the main are really only after our money. If we wish to contribute to society we are blocked by the bureaucracy of the National and Local Government through the antiquated visa system that they have in place.

Yes, I in the main have enjoyed my stay in Thailand and would like to come back as a casual visitor some time in the future to see if things have changed for the better and us Farang are thought of in the main as equally good citizens who contribute to life in general.

Bill

[cardholder]

We Farang are really not wanted at all in Thailand, Thai's in the main are really only after our money.

Bill, has it really taken 5 years to realise this ?

I am not being critical but understanding our 'position' in Thai society is one of the fundamentals.

As far as 'contributing to society' is concerned, I would be interested to know what you would like to achieve in this regard.

I fear you may have set yourself too difficult a task.

[Jezz]

We Farang are really not wanted at all in Thailand, Thai's in the main are really only after our money.

Bill, has it really taken 5 years to realise this ?

I am not being critical but understanding our 'position' in Thai society is one of the fundamentals.

As far as 'contributing to society' is concerned, I would be interested to know what you would like to achieve in this regard.

I fear you may have set yourself too difficult a task.

I’m not quite sure what angle you’re coming from. I.E. Are you living here with a partner? Are you working or chilling out? You say you can’t contribute to the development of the region, but again don’t say if you mean financially, or with some sort of expert ability that could be beneficial. One needs to know what has caused many a battle with locals too. I’ve been in Thailand six years, retired with a Thai wife and family in Isaan for two-and-a-half years, and so far can’t say I’ve noticed much difference in other people’s attitudes. However, I’m getting older, and probably less inclined to want much change.

[Squigy]

We Farang are really not wanted at all in Thailand, Thai's in the main are really only after our money.

Bill, has it really taken 5 years to realise this ?

I am not being critical but understanding our 'position' in Thai society is one of the fundamentals.

As far as 'contributing to society' is concerned, I would be interested to know what you would like to achieve in this regard.

I fear you may have set yourself too difficult a task.

Jezz,

No I found out the money bit early in the peace, I just thought that Thai's might have had a little bit of sense and realized that I was not about money. I did not mind at all to help out around the village in all aspects of village life.

I wished to contribute to the education of the villager's along with helping out at the local hospital, but alas I was always declined even though I had the correct qualifications for the job. I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life. But no no, I could not do that once again for the sake of "face"

It was all about "face". The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

Bill

[Jezz]

We Farang are really not wanted at all in Thailand, Thai's in the main are really only after our money.

Bill, has it really taken 5 years to realise this ?

I am not being critical but understanding our 'position' in Thai society is one of the fundamentals.

As far as 'contributing to society' is concerned, I would be interested to know what you would like to achieve in this regard.

I fear you may have set yourself too difficult a task.

Jezz,

No I found out the money bit early in the peace, I just thought that Thai's might have had a little bit of sense and realized that I was not about money. I did not mind at all to help out around the village in all aspects of village life.

I wished to contribute to the education of the villager's along with helping out at the local hospital, but alas I was always declined even though I had the correct qualifications for the job. I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life. But no no, I could not do that once again for the sake of "face"

It was all about "face". The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

Bill

My way of life in the village is very much dictated by ability – both monetary and skills. I don't have spare cash to offer, and, as I said earlier, at my age, anything that involves the brain and body sadly doesn't offer much by way of help! To be honest, I haven't come across a single villager that expects anything from me. Rather, when we pass the time of day in the street, for a chat outside our homes – or wherever, I always get happy, cheerful remarks. My lifestyle is extremely modest by necessity, and that seems to be quite acceptable around here. The key seems to be in the fact everyone knows everybody else, so the traditional family commitments and obligations to the community don't go unnoticed, albeit at the best my family probably squeeze an extra baht or two for the temple than they could before I arrived in the village. Beyond that, I can't offer further comment to your point of view out of sheer lack of hands-on experience.

[transam]

OP, LOS isn't for everyone. For sure you will not survive IF your head is still in farangland and you want things to be the same here. I don't doubt that those with deep pockets can make a near farangland life but it's very difficult.

[isanbirder]

I taught in a Thai University for 10 years, and then ran a scholarship scheme for Thai students (with overseas funds). Now I feel I have earned the right to relax, and let others do things for me for a change.

Most (apparently not all) village schools are keen to get farangs to teach their students conversational English; no qualifications required. I was asked to do so... but I must admit, teaching a class of ten-year-olds is not my idea of heaven!

[transam]

I taught in a Thai University for 10 years, and then ran a scholarship scheme for Thai students (with overseas funds). Now I feel I have earned the right to relax, and let others do things for me for a change.

Most (apparently not all) village schools are keen to get farangs to teach their students conversational English; no qualifications required. I was asked to do so... but I must admit, teaching a class of ten-year-olds is not my idea of heaven!

That's interesting. Thought for teaching you must have qualifications and work permit or risk deportation for either.

[RueFang]

I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life...The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

This explains everything. Your belief that your ways and your ideas and skills are better then theirs instantly sets you up to fall. How are your ways going to give 'these kids' a better way of life living in their own culture? How are your ways "better" then theirs? The word is DIFFERENT not BETTER.

You have segregated yourself by thinking you are better then them... these statements make it abundantly clear that they have picked up on your attitude to them being inferior or beneath you in some way because you think your ways are better. And to say that 'jealousy' is always present is absurd.. that is wholly your own projection of what you think they think of you and even more indicative that you think that you are better then them.

Once you understand the simple fact that Thais are not farang, don't think like farang and don't live like farang, you magically seem to fit in a whole lot better.

[trisailer]

RueFang nailed it.

[Jezz]

I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life...The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

This explains everything. Your belief that your ways and your ideas and skills are better then theirs instantly sets you up to fall. How are your ways going to give 'these kids' a better way of life living in their own culture? How are your ways "better" then theirs? The word is DIFFERENT not BETTER.

You have segregated yourself by thinking you are better then them... these statements make it abundantly clear that they have picked up on your attitude to them being inferior or beneath you in some way because you think your ways are better. And to say that 'jealousy' is always present is absurd.. that is wholly your own projection of what you think they think of you and even more indicative that you think that you are better then them.

Once you understand the simple fact that Thais are not farang, don't think like farang and don't live like farang, you magically seem to fit in a whole lot better.

Now the underlying statement from the OP is getting response that I felt unqualified to give. My simple viewpoint certainly supports the comments here, though.

[zzaa09]

OP, LOS isn't for everyone. For sure you will not survive IF your head is still in farangland and you want things to be the same here. I don't doubt that those with deep pockets can make a near farangland life but it's very difficult.

As some just can't adjust here or anywhere else that's not Farangville. I sure wish that Bill, and those like him, wouldn't presume to be talking for all Western residents when instinctively referring to "we". His angst can be common and understood, and then there are some whom might not understand where he's coming from at all. Every situation, and rhymes/reason will be different from the next. Yet, Bill's plight appears to be quite typical reflecting his existence here - the attempt to blame them and unfamiliar lifestyle, when it just might be the individuals vacant perceptions and general intolerance that is the culprit. The angst is perpetuated until one cast themselves to the stereotypical whinging and whining Farang who sees himself as the outsider defending with comparatives creating a false hated for his surroundings. Easier to guess that this type of character would be unhappy anywhere.......

[zzaa09]

I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life...The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

This explains everything. Your belief that your ways and your ideas and skills are better then theirs instantly sets you up to fall. How are your ways going to give 'these kids' a better way of life living in their own culture? How are your ways "better" then theirs? The word is DIFFERENT not BETTER.

You have segregated yourself by thinking you are better then them... these statements make it abundantly clear that they have picked up on your attitude to them being inferior or beneath you in some way because you think your ways are better. And to say that 'jealousy' is always present is absurd.. that is wholly your own projection of what you think they think of you and even more indicative that you think that you are better then them.

Once you understand the simple fact that Thais are not farang, don't think like farang and don't live like farang, you magically seem to fit in a whole lot better.

Some of us have witnessed this unsavoury type of character for years. Can't adapt without the attachment of this imagined superior cultural role. More common than not. Well constructed commentary, RF.

[Squigy]

I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life...The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

This explains everything. Your belief that your ways and your ideas and skills are better then theirs instantly sets you up to fall. How are your ways going to give 'these kids' a better way of life living in their own culture? How are your ways "better" then theirs? The word is DIFFERENT not BETTER.

You have segregated yourself by thinking you are better then them... these statements make it abundantly clear that they have picked up on your attitude to them being inferior or beneath you in some way because you think your ways are better. And to say that 'jealousy' is always present is absurd.. that is wholly your own projection of what you think they think of you and even more indicative that you think that you are better then them.

Once you understand the simple fact that Thais are not farang, don't think like farang and don't live like farang, you magically seem to fit in a whole lot better.

Maybe my choice of words was somewhat rushed when writing the posting. I was not trying to indicate in any way that I (Farang and all that) are better than them.!!

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

Bill

[transam]

I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life...The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

This explains everything. Your belief that your ways and your ideas and skills are better then theirs instantly sets you up to fall. How are your ways going to give 'these kids' a better way of life living in their own culture? How are your ways "better" then theirs? The word is DIFFERENT not BETTER.

You have segregated yourself by thinking you are better then them... these statements make it abundantly clear that they have picked up on your attitude to them being inferior or beneath you in some way because you think your ways are better. And to say that 'jealousy' is always present is absurd.. that is wholly your own projection of what you think they think of you and even more indicative that you think that you are better then them.

Once you understand the simple fact that Thais are not farang, don't think like farang and don't live like farang, you magically seem to fit in a whole lot better.

Maybe my choice of words was somewhat rushed when writing the posting. I was not trying to indicate in any way that I (Farang and all that) are better than them.!!

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

Bill

Par of the course in Isaan. You just have to deal with it and not let it deal with you.

[zzaa09]

Maybe my choice of words was somewhat rushed when writing the posting. I was not trying to indicate in any way that I (Farang and all that) are better than them.!! Well, of course you are Bill. Your true colours have already been shown.

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand. Many of us do reside in small isolated village settings and get on very well. The understanding will vary from person to person. Remember my friend, it's not the locale or living situation......it's the individual. Check yourself first.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

....or your perceptions.

Bill

[cardholder]

I taught in a Thai University for 10 years, and then ran a scholarship scheme for Thai students (with overseas funds). Now I feel I have earned the right to relax, and let others do things for me for a change.

Most (apparently not all) village schools are keen to get farangs to teach their students conversational English; no qualifications required. I was asked to do so... but I must admit, teaching a class of ten-year-olds is not my idea of heaven!

That's interesting. Thought for teaching you must have qualifications and work permit or risk deportation for either.

This is Isaan.

Local schools are regularly asking me if I know falangs who would like to do some teaching - no qualifications required.

[cardholder]

Maybe my choice of words was somewhat rushed when writing the posting. I was not trying to indicate in any way that I (Farang and all that) are better than them.!! Well, of course you are Bill. Your true colours have already been shown.

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand. Many of us do reside in small isolated village settings and get on very well. The understanding will vary from person to person. Remember my friend, it's not the locale or living situation......it's the individual. Check yourself first.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

....or your perceptions.

Bill

Rose-tinted glasses AND blinkers. Your little world must be truly wonderful zzaa09.

[zzaa09]

Maybe my choice of words was somewhat rushed when writing the posting. I was not trying to indicate in any way that I (Farang and all that) are better than them.!! Well, of course you are Bill. Your true colours have already been shown.

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand. Many of us do reside in small isolated village settings and get on very well. The understanding will vary from person to person. Remember my friend, it's not the locale or living situation......it's the individual. Check yourself first.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

....or your perceptions.

Bill

Rose-tinted glasses AND blinkers. Your little world must be truly wonderful zzaa09.

Yes it is. Some of us exist truer and settled than others. Reality isn't up for debate......a fanciful approach should be rought with a caveat, as some don't have the ability to recognize what is what.

[cardholder]

Rose-tinted glasses AND blinkers. Your little world must be truly wonderful zzaa09.

Yes it is. Some of us exist truer and settled than others. Reality isn't up for debate......a fanciful approach should be rought with a caveat, as some don't have the ability to recognize what is what.

Reality is in the heart and mind of the individual. In your reality is seem sthat everything Thai is wonderful and anything that isn't has been tainted by interaction with Falangs. I am not part of that reality.

Others' reality would have us believe that there is a balance to everything. Much grey and not too much black & white, good and bad in all societies and an open mind being preferable to an intransigent opinion. I am part of that reality.

I also accept that there are some who only want to impose their (western) world on others and expect their hosts to adapt rather than them. I am not part of that reality either.

[sarahsbloke]

What Ho chaps, Colonel Blimp speaking.

Went to live in a small village with a girl half my age.

Got bored.

Decided to tell Johnny foreigner how to do a few things

Fell out with Johnny foreigner, ungrateful wretch wouldn't listen.

Went home.

Long live the British Empire.

Does that sound about right?

Edited May 4, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[Old Croc]

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

Bill

Perhaps instead of leaving Thailand completely you would be better off finding a slightly larger, more open environment that would allow you more breathing and thinking space?

[trisailer]

People are wary of outsiders everywhere. I grew up in a city and later moved to a small town 60 miles away. You would have thought I came from Mars. My neighbors were very slow to accept me and in fact they never reall did accept me as one of them.

In my career I worked as a consultant (guy from out of town with a briefcase) and always found initial resistance where ever I went so I was careful to just observe for a time and find out who the players were and who best to get help me get my job done. I learned very early that I had to work through the leaders and not even talk to the hourly people except with their approval.

People in the village have been doing it their way for hundreds of years and while it may not appear to you there is order to it. If you go against the established order it throws the dynamic out of wack. You also show disrespect by not learning the "proper" ways of doing things.

[swissie]

I am far from being an expert as far as "Thai-Thinking" is concerned, but one thing (I think) I have learned.

- Thais don't like Farangs "that know it all", especially when they try to "shove their knowledge down their throats" and unasked for.

Starting in Kindergarden, Thais are told that thay are a great nation and a great people and therefore who is qualified to tell them how to do things ?

- But things like this work: During a stopover in India I bought a "solar cooker" and used it in my frontyard near Phisanoluk on a daily basis (on sunny days anyway.)

After 2 weeks my frontyard turned into a true attraction. Plenty of courious people that wanted to see how the Farang was able to bring water to a boil without using elecrtcity or firewood or gas. True interest was generated and more importantly: Just by doing it for myself and not going around telling the Thais "this is what is good for you and doesen't cost anything so therefore you shold be doing it as well".

Never knew the end of the story, because for health reasons I had to return to europe.

But the point is: To awaken their couriosity and doing something practical and useful without triying to act as the wise and all knowing farang is probably the key to it all.

This opposed to the approach of major "western-companies" operating in Thailand. = Get some university-degree-heavy farangs into the management of the company and tell the Thais how it's done. More often than not, a good part of them will suffer a quick "burnout". Why ?

- While schooling within a seminar or a company work shop is fine as far as the conveyance of "farang-knowledge" is concerned, a direct "correction" of a Thai-Employee at the place of work by the farang-superior and in front of his Thai co-workers is an absolut NO-NO!

= Loss of face!

For sure, this "loss of face" is not only a "Thai-Phenomenon". But extremely strong rooted in Thailand. According to my (in the maen time) westernized Thai-Wife: This exaggerated "loss of face syndrome" will prevent Thailand to be a Top-Player among the "Asian-Tigers" !

My reply to this is always: If Thailand ever should become a Top-Player among the "Asian-Tigers", I will spend my retirement years in Eastern-Timbuktu . HeHe !

Cheers.

[cardholder]

Good post Swissie - I also think your wife is right.

[kennalder]

Yes, I in the main have enjoyed my stay in Thailand and would like to come back as a casual visitor some time in the future to see if things have changed for the better and us Farang are thought of in the main as equally good citizens who contribute to life in general.

Do you believe in re-incarnation?

[Theo007]

Now nine years in Pattaya, have seen many changes and none of them for the better. Am involved with a small group of foreigners who actually do something to help some of the unprivileged locals however am feeling more and more that it is now time to leave.

[barrybankruad]

I taught in a Thai University for 10 years, and then ran a scholarship scheme for Thai students (with overseas funds). Now I feel I have earned the right to relax, and let others do things for me for a change.

Most (apparently not all) village schools are keen to get farangs to teach their students conversational English; no qualifications required. I was asked to do so... but I must admit, teaching a class of ten-year-olds is not my idea of heaven!

That's interesting. Thought for teaching you must have qualifications and work permit or risk deportation for either.

Legally perhaps. A few years ago the local headmaster asked if I would teach at my village primary school. I did so for a few terms. I was not paid it was purely voluntary. I found that the discipline especially with the boys left much to be desired. It seemed to me that only the girls wanted to learn. I admit that in the end it got a bit much and packed it in.

[newtronbom]

RueFang nailed it.

He sure did. You must earn respect here and you wont get it until you learn their ways, language and get accepted. After 5 years in my village outside BNK, I was voted Gumagun Moo Barn(translates to referee but just means adviser - more or less) and 3 years on still hold the post. The few decisions I get to make are in the "Thai way" but with my own view on it. Seems to work. I must be one of the poorest house owners in the village, so money had nothing to do with it. I too was asked and am still being asked to teach but don't need the stress either. Swissie has it pretty right. Back when I was still living in NZ, I know how I would have felt if some "Asian" had come round trying to tell me how to live my life. Why should Thais be any different? PS. I know of no law that says a native English speaker has to have qualifications to teach, but I could be wrong.

Edited May 5, 2011 by newtronbom

[richard_smith237]

Working with educated Thai's I find that many of the attitudes towards the way things are carried out are rather similar to western attitudes and these Thai's only differ slightly in their approach being less aggressive and often less open with their opinions.

Working with uneducated Thai's they are forced to take the Western, often safer approach to many applications, not because they choose to but because they have no choice. In this case I am sure they think we are idiots because there is always a simpler easier way to do something but the long term picture and safety is rarely factored in. In this circumstance the capacity to think outside one box is certainly a major barrier.

Is the Western way of doing things better? I say it is, but in Thailand a slightly different approach may have to be taken to get this across. There is certainly a stubbornness that needs to be overcome before a Thai person would recognise the benefits of doing something a differently than he thinks he should. However, that could be said of a person of any intelligence from any nation .

There are many aspects where the Thai systems fail; safety, corruption, lack of law enforcement and lack of responsibility are the issues which stand out.

Thailand is a great place to live in spite of all this because in general the populace is inherently good natured, kind hearted and softly spoken. Recognising the negative aspects of society and life in Thailand does not represent any weakness on our behalf (as some have suggested) and its perhaps rather lame of the Thai Apologists to always draw this weak argument.

Suggesting that in some aspects Westerners methods are better is not knocking Thailand, many of my Thai friends recognise this difference and agree. However, along with them I also recognise that often the Thai way is less stressful in the short term. There is another thread running about forward thinking - Maybe there are links between these two topics....

One thing is for sure - 'Face' is certainly damaging to the development of this Nation. Even 'Not the Nation' (web based spoof new paper in Thailand) picked up on this with its 'Bumrungrad performs Thailands 1st face saving operation' topic....

Getting tired of Thailand for many may often mean getting fed up and tired of the B.S. associated with saving face.......

Edited May 5, 2011 by richard_smith237