Rubber Trees

[scotbeve]

Mike,

Good post mate! We just "opened" our trees and going slow and steady. To any (brand) newbies: "use the 7 to 7.5 years / 50cm girth / 1.5m rule" don't let anyone tell you different. Mike, 65cm girth??? Well done!!! Try to use dried manure as well all. Happy growing / tapping!

[scotbeve]

At the local factory I drive past daily, Rubberland, I see stacked bales in the back area (of what looks like compressed block rubber) that could take 100+ fully trailer lorries to haul off, and probably more. I have no clue if that's good or bad. None the less there are dozens of truck of kee motoring around daily and half the trees are bare. And, there's a large grower locally (grafts for baby trees) that has what looks like over 10,000 babies recently grafted and beginning to grow.

all's well so far

Custom,

IMO, I think that once the tri-country consortium (Thailand-Malaysia-Indonesia) get to talks more the price will be back up. Hopefully, there won't be any more undercutting of prices caused by the govt folks.

[kwonitoy]

Mike:

Congratulations,sounds like your off to a very good start,

I sent you a PM as I'd like to find out more about this rubber school at Phon Phisai, I'm about 60kms south of there and I'm just getting started on tapping also. I have some of the wife's family I'd like to attend a place of higher learning.

I've been batteling the Issan rice farming mentality as applied to rubber tree growing for years now.

Ken

[thaiguzzi]

Hi Guys,

thanx for the comments, apologies for being slow to reply, but i'm not on the computer that much, now it's slow on the farm i tend to keep busy in my two 20' insulated containers kitted out as full workshops brought over from the uk, one of which is a full machine shop c/w English brand name lathe, milling machine, shaper, grinder etc and on my motorcycles also brought over from England. Give you some idea of what i'm into, some of the forums i read weekly are the American sites Practical Machinist and Home Shop Machinist, also the Yahoo group sites of owners of my particular machine tools and my motorcycles. I love fiddling, making bits and playing with my bikes - if i do'nt have black fingernails at the end of the day, when i have my first Chang on the balcony, then i have'nt been productive!

Jim- thanx for your kind words, i'd like to meet up in a year or two when i've got a bit more money myself, i believe you're in the Ubon area - be a nice ride down there. Yes, no money back home, sold up house and business, every thing invested over here now. Because of the unexpected price drop in rubber, have got bugger all left in the bank here too, hence having to sell my Ford tractor (see seperate post). May have to sell one of my beloved bikes too, no temp. work available back home according to my mates, the UK and Europe is all doom and gloom. An English mate of mine in Bung Khan who has over 10,000 7-8 year old trees told me years ago if you've got 5,000 trees you'll be alright. He tried sheets a month ago and went back to cup rubber, because it was'nt worth it according to him with his young-ish trees, price for sheet was 87 baht, cup was 42 baht. The water/latex percentage is not great for making sheet i believe in 6-8 year old trees, i think the teachers at NK school told the missus, start sheet after 2-3 years of cutting, when it is very worthwhile. This year we will still do cup rubber, but as and when finances allow i do want to start purchasing rollers etc for maybe next year making sheet. The big advantage with sheet is you can sell when you want, keeing an eye on the price fluctuations, and you do'nt have cup rubber theft which was a big problem round here when prices were 80 baht and up. The people who can afford to keep it, in the deep south always have big sales in Feb when the prices used to be well high.

Mosha - 60 baht cup rubber, 100 baht sheet; prices are going up! Possibly because everyone in Issan is about to stop cutting. All the trees up here think it's mid febuary. Normally the rain stops and we a have 6-8 week transitional period before the cold weather sets in. Last year - nope - rain stops and we get cool/cold weather staightaway! Sod's law.

Scotbeve - Yes manure, only dried is not cheap and easy to get anymore up here, a lot less cattle and buffalos now than when i first moved here. There are some very good "NC" fertilisers available now, Top One and Mosaic, not cheap at @ 360 per 50kg sack,but guaranteed good stuff, very rich, unlike the stuff years ago when you did'nt know what you were getting. NC and manure is great for the soil and does'nt do a lot for the trees, but then if you have good soil, you have happy trees. Whereas the numbered fertilisers (20-10-12) etc are great for the trees but not good for the soil. We try and stick a bag of NC per rai thrown, not dug, on the land every 2 or 3 years to try and put something back into the soil that the chems take out.

By the way, i've got some 7 year old trees that are monsters, about two dozen approaching 80cms! Having said that i have another 20 odd at the bottom of 2 slopes near our house which are in absolutely sodden wet land during the rainy season which i doubt are 20cms. The missus's brother likes to keep about 25-35 chickens on the plot he cuts, near their hut, and the trees around that patch really produce! Noticeably.

Ken - sent you a pm. In case other people are interested the Nong Khai school tel. no. is 042-421396, open mon - fri 07.30-14.30, free advice, books, cd's etc. However as i told Ken, last year there were no 8 day free courses (inc. free meals and overnight sleeping in dormatories) due to cutbacks in govt funding. Typical. Hopefully things have changed this year. I would imagine wherever a lot of rubber is grown, there may be similar places.

Whilst on the subject of this school, they also taught my missus to try and mix her fertiliser from different numbers to get higher percentages of actual quality fertiliser. For instance, ready to cut and thereafter use only 30-5-18, very difficult to buy these numbers, some shops do'nt even know what you're talking about.Yet the school issues every student with formulas for mixing your own 20-10-12 and 30-5-18. All you ever need for rubber trees basically.

ie you want 1500kgs 30-5-18 or 30 bags, you need;

150 kgs 18-46-0 , 3 bags

900kgs 46-0-0 , 18 "

450 kgs 0-0-60 , 9 "

These figures mixed give you your 30 bags of quality 30-5-18. These formula sheets are available from the school and also good fertiliser shops that sell high brand fertilisers and know what they are talking about.

Jeesus - another long-winded post. Time to get back into the shed!

Cheers, Mike.

[scotbeve]

We've decided to sell one of our rubber plantations (18 rai) as we have enough, or rather, too much at the moment.... In Mae Ai. Fair price, any takers? Please feel free to pm me for the details.

[TexasRanger]

Hi Folks. We have some land just being cleared now for our plantation, the in-laws have been growing for a few years now so they know what they are doing (I hope), anyway, I am away at the moment but they are saying to buy trees now while the price is lower and keep them at the house until planting time. Others in the village are doing the same thing as well. Anyone see a problem with this? They say the trees are around 25Bt each now as opposed to nearly 100Bt nearer planting time.

Cheers

[cobbler]

We just put some pui ,um fertilizer on yesterday.We have changed from our original fertilizer which was multiple colors and not such a strong smell.This one is very dark in color and smells very rich.The price is also a bit cheaper than our other 1.So we are hoping for the best.Came with some very good comments from my wife's family who are our teachers and mentors.If anybody's interested ,I'll try to get some photo of the bag or put the name here in Thai for you.

Cheers Cobbler

Why are you fertilizing now, your trees will be going dormant shorty. Jim

Hi Jim

We Fertilize 3 times a year.Now is 1 as it gets our trees a good start for next season.We have had rain this week so we are happy with that.Mind you we only follow what my wife's family does because they seem to be very successful with what they do.Different areas have different needs though.E.G Our flat farm is fertilized 3 times a year,but we have another farm which is a mountain (cliff face) .It's a very difficult job to fertilize so we use slow release fertilizer on that,only done 1 time per year..It seems to be going well.So go figger.

I hope this has been as confusing for you as it is for me.

Happy Yang to all ,,Cobbler

[cobbler]

Hi Folks. We have some land just being cleared now for our plantation, the in-laws have been growing for a few years now so they know what they are doing (I hope), anyway, I am away at the moment but they are saying to buy trees now while the price is lower and keep them at the house until planting time. Others in the village are doing the same thing as well. Anyone see a problem with this? They say the trees are around 25Bt each now as opposed to nearly 100Bt nearer planting time.

Cheers

Sounds great ,just be sure they get enough water ,because they will die.As if you didn't know.Cheers Cobbler

[cobbler]

Nice one Mike and congrats on having made it. Again shows if you do the right thing and put the effort in you can come out a winner.

Like you, rubber is my income, don't even have an overseas bank account anymore and keeping my fingers crossed for a better season this year. Good or bad I have no where else to go,, so will have to take what comes.

When you go over to sheet you will start to make good returns. I have said before if you have over 3000 trees you can make a good living here. Jim

Sounds like me again but we have only 2000 trees,are hoping to plant another 400 or so this closed season.Our workers are keen for a bit of closed season work.Here's hoping it happens.Cheers Cobbler

[cobbler]

Now this doesn't sound too promising. Just heard on BBC an expected rubber surplus of 212,000 tonnes in 2012.

Take no notice of these predictions, these guys are telling people how much rubber will be needed for production in 2013. Ask them will the EU still be here, will China stop growing or will the US dollar fall through the floor, they have no idea. Yet they know how much rubber will be produced in 2012 and how much will be needed in 2013. Think I get better forecasts from the village head, then some highly paid guy in the city.More then likely the same guys who have managed to distroy what pension I was hoping to get in years to come. Jim

Ha! if your anything like me that's exactly one of the reasons We left Australia.Too many taxpayer funded jobs doing nothing productive.I'm with you Jim,they have to forcast something ,because if not ''why are they being paid a rediculous amount of money.(OOPS sorry ,am I allowed to say that?)(if so there's plenty more of it.)The world has an exploding population and it needs rubber.COOL Cheers Cobbler.

[scotbeve]

Now this doesn't sound too promising. Just heard on BBC an expected rubber surplus of 212,000 tonnes in 2012.

Take no notice of these predictions, these guys are telling people how much rubber will be needed for production in 2013. Ask them will the EU still be here, will China stop growing or will the US dollar fall through the floor, they have no idea. Yet they know how much rubber will be produced in 2012 and how much will be needed in 2013. Think I get better forecasts from the village head, then some highly paid guy in the city.More then likely the same guys who have managed to distroy what pension I was hoping to get in years to come. Jim

Ha! if your anything like me that's exactly one of the reasons We left Australia.Too many taxpayer funded jobs doing nothing productive.I'm with you Jim,they have to forcast something ,because if not ''why are they being paid a rediculous amount of money.(OOPS sorry ,am I allowed to say that?)(if so there's plenty more of it.)The world has an exploding population and it needs rubber.COOL Cheers Cobbler.

If I may add cobbler.... the world needs "natural" latex / rubber in lieu of the (expensive) not-very-green synthetic rubber.

[cobbler]

Hi to all,Happy Chinese New year.For what it's worth,be careful when using cow manure as fertilizer.We looked into it and were warned that it can bring bacteria to your trees ,1 farmer lost all his trees on 1 farm due to bacteria.We might be going for a bit of a tour around in the closed season.Any of you yang farmers interested in letting me come and check out your set up.Maybe I can learn something.

[jamescollister]

As I have said before, all are welcome to come visit me and stay a night or 2.

Cobbler, your timing is out, we are headed back to OZ in Feb, for the non rubber period. Will be back in April, though in saying that, we went back for 3 months last year, lasted 6 weeks. Nothing really there for us now.

As for the manure thing, I used every type I could find, to build up the soil. Never had a problem.

Mike you sound like you have a good grip on the tree stuff, one thing I found over the years is the Government advise is a good guide line, but it is aimed at Thais, who in general don't take as good care of their trees as farangs [money] Follow your gut and tap on tree condition, not by what the book says. We were making sheet in the first year, other Thai plantations of the same age still do not produce enough latex for sheet. There are so many variables, good soil, bad soil, rain fall patterns, ground water retention, how well fertilized, how high you cut the branches and canopy size. All make a difference and the only one who knows your trees is you. So you are the best judge of how, when and what you should do. Hope to see some of you soon. Jim

[Mosha]

When we are winning we should have a meeting lol Significant others wiliing of course,

[jamescollister]

When we are winning we should have a meeting lol Significant others wiliing of course,

We have an Issan farmers get together every 3 months, all are welcome. Try for a date and all us rubber people can have a bit of a longer get together. Jim

[jamescollister]

As I have said before, all are welcome to come visit me and stay a night or 2.

Cobbler, your timing is out, we are headed back to OZ in Feb, for the non rubber period. Will be back in April, though in saying that, we went back for 3 months last year, lasted 6 weeks. Nothing really there for us now.

As for the manure thing, I used every type I could find, to build up the soil. Never had a problem.

Mike you sound like you have a good grip on the tree stuff, one thing I found over the years is the Government advise is a good guide line, but it is aimed at Thais, who in general don't take as good care of their trees as farangs [money] Follow your gut and tap on tree condition, not by what the book says. We were making sheet in the first year, other Thai plantations of the same age still do not produce enough latex for sheet. There are so many variables, good soil, bad soil, rain fall patterns, ground water retention, how well fertilized, how high you cut the branches and canopy size. All make a difference and the only one who knows your trees is you. So you are the best judge of how, when and what you should do. Hope to see some of you soon. Jim

We have an Issan farmers get together every 3 months. Try and fix a date and we rubber people can may be have a bit of a learning holiday. Jim

[Mosha]

Last time I was up there visiting my wife's brother. I had to call home and ask Sopha to tell little brother to send me home. A week visit turned into 6 weeks lol.

[wijar]

FYI, RRIM3001 a.k.a KT35/39

Hi guys. I am new to this site and am seriously considering turning our plot into a rubber farm. Reading though these 6 months or so of information I believe it is the right idea. I still work so can "afford" to wait a few years before i get a return. My question is; where can we purchase these saplings, RRIM3100 (KT35/39). I will check with our local agent/university if indeed it is the best one for our piece of land, but as stated before it may be better to buy them now and nurse them, than wait until planting time.

[customcurb]

Wife and I have an 8 rai plot that used to be fine for rice (with berms higher than the paddy sections) but that had the berms knocked down via tractor. Last rice season the in-laws took the throw and pray planting approach hoping rice would grow in the lower areas. It did but in a somewhat random way and not as well as would in a correct paddy.

Today we saw a small plot elsewhere around the area that combined rice paddies in between rubber trees on larger berms, and the paddies were smaller as there were extra berms between them, likely to increase the number of rubber trees in the given land area. Trees looked to be 3-4 yrs old and in decent shape, but not outstanding.

I thought it was a cleaver and efficient idea to maximize the use of land and reduce the prep cost, but wanted to field the idea before perhaps doing same on our 8 rai plot.

Any suggestions/comments, and might a couple of tilipia ponds in between the tree'd berms work also ?

Thx

Custom

[jamescollister]

Wife and I have an 8 rai plot that used to be fine for rice (with berms higher than the paddy sections) but that had the berms knocked down via tractor. Last rice season the in-laws took the throw and pray planting approach hoping rice would grow in the lower areas. It did but in a somewhat random way and not as well as would in a correct paddy.

Today we saw a small plot elsewhere around the area that combined rice paddies in between rubber trees on larger berms, and the paddies were smaller as there were extra berms between them, likely to increase the number of rubber trees in the given land area. Trees looked to be 3-4 yrs old and in decent shape, but not outstanding.

I thought it was a cleaver and efficient idea to maximize the use of land and reduce the prep cost, but wanted to field the idea before perhaps doing same on our 8 rai plot.

Any suggestions/comments, and might a couple of tilipia ponds in between the tree'd berms work also ?

Thx

Custom

Wife and I have an 8 rai plot that used to be fine for rice (with berms higher than the paddy sections) but that had the berms knocked down via tractor. Last rice season the in-laws took the throw and pray planting approach hoping rice would grow in the lower areas. It did but in a somewhat random way and not as well as would in a correct paddy.

Today we saw a small plot elsewhere around the area that combined rice paddies in between rubber trees on larger berms, and the paddies were smaller as there were extra berms between them, likely to increase the number of rubber trees in the given land area. Trees looked to be 3-4 yrs old and in decent shape, but not outstanding.

I thought it was a cleaver and efficient idea to maximize the use of land and reduce the prep cost, but wanted to field the idea before perhaps doing same on our 8 rai plot.

Any suggestions/comments, and might a couple of tilipia ponds in between the tree'd berms work also ?

Thx

Custom

Wife and I have an 8 rai plot that used to be fine for rice (with berms higher than the paddy sections) but that had the berms knocked down via tractor. Last rice season the in-laws took the throw and pray planting approach hoping rice would grow in the lower areas. It did but in a somewhat random way and not as well as would in a correct paddy.

Today we saw a small plot elsewhere around the area that combined rice paddies in between rubber trees on larger berms, and the paddies were smaller as there were extra berms between them, likely to increase the number of rubber trees in the given land area. Trees looked to be 3-4 yrs old and in decent shape, but not outstanding.

I thought it was a cleaver and efficient idea to maximize the use of land and reduce the prep cost, but wanted to field the idea before perhaps doing same on our 8 rai plot.

Any suggestions/comments, and might a couple of tilipia ponds in between the tree'd berms work also ?

Thx

Custom

General rule old rice paddy land is no good for rubber. Takes a lot of work to get the soil back up to standard and rubber does not like wet roots. There are always ways around this, but the cost must be taken into account. Jim

[Mosha]

Wife and I have an 8 rai plot that used to be fine for rice (with berms higher than the paddy sections) but that had the berms knocked down via tractor. Last rice season the in-laws took the throw and pray planting approach hoping rice would grow in the lower areas. It did but in a somewhat random way and not as well as would in a correct paddy.

Today we saw a small plot elsewhere around the area that combined rice paddies in between rubber trees on larger berms, and the paddies were smaller as there were extra berms between them, likely to increase the number of rubber trees in the given land area. Trees looked to be 3-4 yrs old and in decent shape, but not outstanding.

I thought it was a cleaver and efficient idea to maximize the use of land and reduce the prep cost, but wanted to field the idea before perhaps doing same on our 8 rai plot.

Any suggestions/comments, and might a couple of tilipia ponds in between the tree'd berms work also ?

Thx

Custom

Wife and I have an 8 rai plot that used to be fine for rice (with berms higher than the paddy sections) but that had the berms knocked down via tractor. Last rice season the in-laws took the throw and pray planting approach hoping rice would grow in the lower areas. It did but in a somewhat random way and not as well as would in a correct paddy.

Today we saw a small plot elsewhere around the area that combined rice paddies in between rubber trees on larger berms, and the paddies were smaller as there were extra berms between them, likely to increase the number of rubber trees in the given land area. Trees looked to be 3-4 yrs old and in decent shape, but not outstanding.

I thought it was a cleaver and efficient idea to maximize the use of land and reduce the prep cost, but wanted to field the idea before perhaps doing same on our 8 rai plot.

Any suggestions/comments, and might a couple of tilipia ponds in between the tree'd berms work also ?

Thx

Custom

Wife and I have an 8 rai plot that used to be fine for rice (with berms higher than the paddy sections) but that had the berms knocked down via tractor. Last rice season the in-laws took the throw and pray planting approach hoping rice would grow in the lower areas. It did but in a somewhat random way and not as well as would in a correct paddy.

Today we saw a small plot elsewhere around the area that combined rice paddies in between rubber trees on larger berms, and the paddies were smaller as there were extra berms between them, likely to increase the number of rubber trees in the given land area. Trees looked to be 3-4 yrs old and in decent shape, but not outstanding.

I thought it was a cleaver and efficient idea to maximize the use of land and reduce the prep cost, but wanted to field the idea before perhaps doing same on our 8 rai plot.

Any suggestions/comments, and might a couple of tilipia ponds in between the tree'd berms work also ?

Thx

Custom

General rule old rice paddy land is no good for rubber. Takes a lot of work to get the soil back up to standard and rubber does not like wet roots. There are always ways around this, but the cost must be taken into account. Jim

I have to admit. I was curous and visits to family in Hat Yai, and they turned paddys over to rubber. Especiallly as year on year Thailand's rice production is falling. ps not the family but observations as we were travelling

[cobbler]

As I have said before, all are welcome to come visit me and stay a night or 2.

Cobbler, your timing is out, we are headed back to OZ in Feb, for the non rubber period. Will be back in April, though in saying that, we went back for 3 months last year, lasted 6 weeks. Nothing really there for us now.

As for the manure thing, I used every type I could find, to build up the soil. Never had a problem.

Mike you sound like you have a good grip on the tree stuff, one thing I found over the years is the Government advise is a good guide line, but it is aimed at Thais, who in general don't take as good care of their trees as farangs [money] Follow your gut and tap on tree condition, not by what the book says. We were making sheet in the first year, other Thai plantations of the same age still do not produce enough latex for sheet. There are so many variables, good soil, bad soil, rain fall patterns, ground water retention, how well fertilized, how high you cut the branches and canopy size. All make a difference and the only one who knows your trees is you. So you are the best judge of how, when and what you should do. Hope to see some of you soon. Jim

Thanks Jim,That would be great.We would love to visit you.Also good to hear about you success with manure.

[Mosha]

I really hope the weather we have had so far this month is not a sign of things to come. Over 10x the normal rainfall

[kolohe]

I'm not there right now but I've been receiving reports that we are getting rain again and the trees have about 60% of their leaves back.

[kwonitoy]

I've converted 30 rai of paddy land over to rubber with good results. The reason being that the land wasn't suitable for rice in the first place. The soil was very pourous and didn't hold water, but land like this is put into rice because it's EASY.

Put up a small berm, stick some rice in the soil, come back 4 months later and harvest.

I bought the land in 3 pieces over the years and knocked down the berms, cut down all the trees and removed the stumps, leaving a large,level piece of ground that slopes towards a small klong. As I said the ground is pourous and has drainage so the rubber grow perfectly. I've put some work into this and have gotten good results. The locals won't make this attempt on their own. Suprisingly, or maybe not there is now rubber planted on both side of where we planted and it's also doing very well.

Up around my area it was just rice, rice, rice, that's all the locals knew. In the past 3 years or so there's been a big shift from growing marginal rice to cassava, rubber and now palm trees.

The local knowledge is changing slowly.

If you want to plant where rice was grown, look at the lay of the land to see if it will drain in the rains. Check the soil, see if holds water or naturally absorbs it. It needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. But it can be done.

We're going to do a trial run on some crappy, poor drainage rice paddys with 200 palm trees this year. If it works there's 70 rai of land that's "NO GOOD" (and cheap) that I've got my eye on. A lot of work with the tractor, clear the bush, cut the trees that are left at random, rearange the berms and its suprising what's there. This is the kind of work I completely enjoy and do a lot of it myself along with my 4 main guys.

Again untill 3 years ago it was "common" knowledge that palm is No Good for our area. Well I've seen several plots put in and they are all doing quite nicely. Time to test the water so to speak.

Ken

[thaiguzzi]

buffalo dried manure, chicken shit seems really good, the only problems i've seen on other plots are wet pig manure, and or put too close to the trees. Worst thing i ever saw, was on a plot in Bung Khan, where the Thai owner was having the toilet cesspit lorries coming, and spraying Human excrement down the rows! I was actually on the plot looking and smelling around me, thinking "there's something not quite right here".

Mike.

[thaiguzzi]

Sorry, something went amiss with my one-finger-typing. Start of post was - manure - never seen a problem with dried cow or buffalo manure...

[ClausGS]

HI thaiguzzi

Just want to clerify the fertilizer part.

Below is what i understand from youre post, pleas correct me if I am wrong????.

Year 1

Fertilizer type 15-15-15

1 x 50 kg / rai

Year 2

Fertilizer type 18-4-5

1 x 50 kg / rai

Year 3 to 5

Fertilizer type 20-10-12

1 x 50 kg / rai

Year 6

Fertilizer type 20-10-12

1 x 50 kg / rai

1 x 50 kg / rai

Year 7 to up

Fertilizer type 30-5-18

1 x 50 kg / rai

1 x 50 kg / rai

So in the years 1 to 5 just 1 x fertilizer / year, and from 6 to rest of time 2 x fertilizer / year.??

If any other have fertilizer plan's they want to share pleas feel free...

Claus

[jamescollister]

On this rice paddy subject, guess all rice paddies are not the same, so I can only comment on my experience.

We had 15 rai of ex rice land, the land had been left fallow for around 5 years and was covered in scrub. There was no resemblance to a rice paddy by then. I had read that the soil in paddy fields was usually in poor condition, so we set off plowing in any manure we could get, even septic sam the toilet man dropped a few tanker loads.

We planted the next year and to my surprise the trees shot up, out pacing trees on non rice land. As the years went the tree growth slowed and I noted the soil was sodden, sludge like most of the wet season, gullies began to form between the tree lines and seemed to grow larger each rain. So began a soil replacement project. Truck after truck load of soil dumped and packet down. Then we planted chillies around to hold the earth together. We continued digging in animal manure as well as the normal fertilizing.

End result trees are about 2 years behind the other plantations, but we tapped 400 this year and latex output has been good. Well open another 600 this season and see how they go, with luck all will be well.

Would I plant paddy land again, probably not unless I got it for free and then I would work the soil up over a few years before planting trees. Jim

[thaiguzzi]

Hi Claus, fertilizer numbers are correct, you can even go with 20-10-12 from start to 6 years old, but the amounts are incorrect. We were putting 50 kg bags per rai twice on our trees 6 years up. Younger trees need nowhere near this amount. This year's 3 .5 year old trees were getting about 12-14 bags per 26 rai. 1-2 year old trees something like 150 grams per tree. All amounts twice yearly and always dug, not thrown.

Mike.